"Some things in this world are older than Sauron..." = ?

[Peter_20]

I remember Gandalf mentioning something like this: about powers in Arda that are older than Sauron.
How is that possible?
I mean, didn't Sauron exist before the world itself?
He was one of the Ainur! :confused:

[Valandil]

I think it can be taken as 'before Sauron came to power / became the Dark Lord'. In other words - some of the dangerous things out there - he didn't put there, and they are not all subject to him. I think that was the point of the quote where Gandalf says that.

[brownjenkins]

What Val said. Plus, there's some speculation that certain beings inhabited Arda before the Ainu (Bombadil, etc.), so they are "older" in Arda-terms.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yeah, I think BJ's slant on it is the best way to look at it.

[Wayfarer]

Plus, even Sauron wasn't always Sauron, was he?

Sauron was originally a servant of Aulë, so it's doubtful that all of his more colorful traits - changing into a giant bat, conducting human sacrifice, ravaging the nations with armies - were there from the beginning. In one sense you could say that Sauron didn't originally exist.

[Forkbeard]

What Val said. Plus, there's some speculation that certain beings inhabited Arda before the Ainu (Bombadil, etc.), so they are "older" in Arda-terms.

I don't think its speculation. I recall, though don't have the book handy, that Gandalf says that these "powers" have been in Arda longer, not that they're older. I. E. not speculation, but explicit statement.

[Noble Elf Lord]

I remember Gandalf mentioning something like this: about powers in Arda that are older than Sauron.
How is that possible?
I mean, didn't Sauron exist before the world itself?
He was one of the Ainur! :confused:

WHAAAAAAT?! Either I have seriously misunderstood the Silmarillion, or Sauron isn´t/wasn´t one of the Ainur. But I think that Gandalf indeed meant that those powers have dwelled in ME longer than Sauron, and are thus "older".

[Gwaimir Windgem]

'fraid you've seriously misunderstood the Sil, old boy. Sauron was indeed an Ainu, more specifically a Maia. IIRC, he was originally one of Aule's folk, correct?

[Peter_20]

'fraid you've seriously misunderstood the Sil, old boy. Sauron was indeed an Ainu, more specifically a Maia. IIRC, he was originally one of Aule's folk, correct?Yes, he was. :)

I like how Tolkien always stresses the good in everything, that even Sauron was "good" once.
Even Melkor himself was probably good too, but suddenly he started envying Ilúvatar and longing for power himself.

It's an important lesson to learn, that even the worst criminals and murderers have been innocent babies once.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Yes, he was. :)

I like how Tolkien always stresses the good in everything, that even Sauron was "good" once.
Even Melkor himself was probably good too, but suddenly he started envying Ilúvatar and longing for power himself.

It's an important lesson to learn, that even the worst criminals and murderers have been innocent babies once. Yes indeed... But I indeed thought that ainur only meant the valar. :) :eek:

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Nope; Ainur is a general term encompassing both the Maiar and the Valar (and I believe those spirits who remained outside Arda).

[Noble Elf Lord]

Nope; Ainur is a general term encompassing both the Maiar and the Valar (and I believe those spirits who remained outside Arda).

OK. Thanks for sorting that out. :) :D :D

[bropous]

Perhaps this was one of the unresolved inconsistencies [gasp!] that crept into Tolkien's writings from time to time. Perhaps he meant Bombadil, but then again, all of the Ainur were supposedly there with Iluvitar in the original music when Melkor started ad-libbing...