Elendil on Amon Sul

[Valandil]

In "A Knife in the Dark", as they approach Weathertop, Merry remarks on a path they've found, that it looks 'barrow-wightish' and asks Aragorn if there was a barrow on Weathertop.

Getting old, like me, Aragorn answers the question with a story. :p It ends like this:

"...But long ago, in the first days of the North Kingdom, they built a great watch-tower on Weathertop. Amon Sul they called it. It was burned and broken, and nothing remains of it now but a tumbled ring, like a rough crown on the old hill's head. Yet once it was tall and fair. It is told that Elendil stood there watching for the coming of Gil-galad out of the West, in the days of the Last Alliance."

From Appendix B, in the Second Age:
3431 Gil-galad and Elendil march east to Imladris.

Now, when I first read this passage, and even on subsequent re-readings, I always envisioned this guy (whom I learned more about later), as just standing at the parapet of this high tower, looking westward over the ramparts, watching for an army coming down the road.

But it only occurred to me the other day (how embarrassing) - that Elendil probably wasn't doing that.

He had a palantir on Amon Sul!

So - whether he stood, as Aragorn said, or actually sat, I suppose he watched for Gil-galad's army through his special "looking glass" rather than with the bare eye. :)

If it matters to anyone. :p

But it does show me how we can get an image in our minds when we read something, and still cling to that initial image even as we gather more information.

[Earniel]

heh, I never made that link either. :o

[sun-star]

Nor me. :o I think I actually prefer the image of him gazing westward - it's a striking picture.

[The Telcontarion]

The minuit i read this thread I knew u were right. It also accured to me that both enterpretations would most likely be right as well.

After all, Aragon and Gandalf used the "commanding view" of Amon Sul to get a better view of the land about.

[Rían]

I imagine he did both. :) Even though the palantiri were cool, there's nothing like seeing the actual thing with your actual eyes!

[The Telcontarion]

I imagine he did both. :) Even though the palantiri were cool, there's nothing like seeing the actual thing with your actual eyes!

Especially when you have no choice, by Aragon and Gandalf's time the palantir was gone. It was a great location for a tower.

[Beren One-Hand]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that by looking through the palantiri you could only see other people looking through other palantiri.

[Landroval]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that by looking through the palantiri you could only see other people looking through other palantiri.
That is just one of their uses
Ungoverned by a directing mind they were wayward, and their "visions" were (apparently at least) haphazard. From a high place their westward face, for instance, would look to vast distance, its vision blurred and distorted to either side and above and below, and its foreground obscured by things behind receding in ever-diminishing clarity.
Also, Gandalf wanted to look even in the past, to see Feanor working.

[Beren One-Hand]

Thank you, Landroval. :D

[Valandil]

Bumpety-BUMP! (for Voronwen's sake :D )

[Voronwen]

Aww, thanks Valandil :)

I'd have to agree with those who have said that both were probably true.

Count me among the guilty who cannot get that image of him standing there gazing westward out of my head :o I just love it! :o :o

[brownjenkins]

When he "stood" maybe he was really watching.

He'd probably sit when he used the palantir. ;)

[Attalus]

When he "stood" maybe he was really watching.

He'd probably sit when he used the palantir. ;)I suspect he watched physically fpr Gil-Galad's army to appear, though I cannot prove it. The Palantir could see better than human sight.

[Noble Elf Lord]

"...Elendil stood there watching for the coming..." Doesn't this sound like he was waiting for them, before they could be seen from the tower by bare eye? If not for the "for" (XD), I'd say he would have searched the lands to the west with the palantiri until he found the army. Also, it is somehow grander to see it with your own eyes, allies arriving from the West... :)

[Valandil]

I think you guys ('Naked Eye' proponents) just can't get your minds unstuck from the prejudicial initial impressions you formed. :p

Remember, when the reader first comes to this point, he knows NOTHING about a Palantir. And the Palantir was likely the whole reason to put a tower at this location.

Also - note Aragorn's language;

"It is told that Elendil stood there watching..."

Now - it was not Elendil himself who 'told' this to Aragorn. This is anecdotal information from over 3000 years before. Somebody made the assumption that he was standing, watching with the naked eye, and it began to be 'told' in a way that reflected that bias. Remember - the Dunedain were rather discreet in talking about the palantiri. If their existence and usage were not 'Top Secret', at least they were 'Classified'. In other words, if two guys at the bottom are having a discussion, it's not like:

Guy1: "So - what's this about Elendil spending all his time at the top of the tower?"
Guy2: "Why - he's looking in his Palantir, watching for whenever Gilgalad will get off his rear end and start actually bringing his Elvish forces in this general direction."

No - that wouldn't happen at all. These items were not material for general conversation. It would be more like:

Guy1: "So - what's this about Elendil spending all his time at the top of the tower?"
Guy2: "They say he's watching for the coming of Gilgalad from the west."
Guy1: "Oh - I see!" *thinks - 'ah - he must be standing there alone on the parapets, searching with his gaze for any sign of the approaching Elven army. Yes... he is certainly 'far-sighted', that one!'*

And this goes on to become part of the tradition about the time spent at Amon Sul. Elendil is not going to volunteer the information that he has been looking through the palantir, instead of with his bare eyes. Is he?

And I think the rest of you are just buying into this tradition. ;)

But by any logic, Elendil would use the means at hand. He would be watching with the Palantir. Regardless of whatever 'romantic' images we may have formed in our minds from Aragorn's words - spoken over 3000 years later. :)

[Voronwen]

And I think the rest of you are just buying into this tradition. ;)


Perhaps totally by choice...! ;) :o

But, you're very convincing on the "palantir" side of things. And i think you're probably right. At the very least, this had to be true at least some of the time. :cool:

[Gordis]

I think both is true.

Gil-Galad had promised help to Elendil: to bring the army of Elves from Mithlond to Amon Sul. As is usual with Elves, it must have taken quite a long time.:D

Anyway, Elendil was already done mustering Men from Arnor and was waiting for his Allies at Amon-Sul. Likely he started watching them in the Palantir long before they had actually set out from the Grey Havens.
Elendil was impatient: it was his younger son Anarion who was fighting the ferocious battle to keep the Enemy from Osgiliath and Minas Anor. And the blasted Elves still not there...

That's why, I think when he finally espied in the Palantir Gil-Galad actually on the march past Bree, he went to the top of the tower and stood there watching with naked eyes. There he was spotted by everybody and so he passed into the legends: alone, atop the tower gazing West.

The palantir was a secret, it was heavily guarded, hidden in the palantir chamber, covered when not used and nobody from below would see a person using it. It were the final stages of Elendil's wait that became the stuff of legends.

[Noble Elf Lord]

...As is usual with Elves, it must have taken quite a long time.:D...


And as is usual with Gordis, she's right. :D

[Voronwen]

Gordis, i like your thinking (unless we're talking about Faithful vs. King's Men, but that's neither here nor there in this thread! :cool: ) Great post! :)

[Varnafindë]

Remember, when the reader first comes to this point, he knows NOTHING about a Palantir. And the Palantir was likely the whole reason to put a tower at this location.

Even when the WRITER first came to this point, he knew nothing about a Palantir - that appeared later :D

Anyway, Elendil was already done mustering Men from Arnor and was waiting for his Allies at Amon-Sul. Likely he started watching them in the Palantir long before they had actually set out from the Grey Havens.
Elendil was impatient: it was his younger son Anarion who was fighting the ferocious battle to keep the Enemy from Osgiliath and Minas Anor. And the blasted Elves still not there...

That's why, I think when he finally espied in the Palantir Gil-Galad actually on the march past Bree, he went to the top of the tower and stood there watching with naked eyes. There he was spotted by everybody and so he passed into the legends: alone, atop the tower gazing West.

I agree. He would watch in the Palantir as long as that was the only way to see them - and as soon as they were approaching the range of his eyesight, he would go out and see the real thing ...

[Voronwen]

Even when the WRITER first came to this point, he knew nothing about a Palantir - that appeared later :D
Aha! That's something to consider. :)

I agree. He would watch in the Palantir as long as that was the only way to see them - and as soon as they were approaching the range of his eyesight, he would go out and see the real thing ...
That is exactly as i see it! :cool:

[Attalus]

I agree with Varnafinde that, sure, he would have kept an eye on the Elven Army as it was mustering and marching, but also agree that it would just be human nature to go to the top of the tower and see "the splendor of their banners" with his naked eye.

[Valandil]

He shouldn't have to go very far. The Palantir was likely at the top of the tower as well.

[Gordis]

He shouldn't have to go very far. The Palantir was likely at the top of the tower as well.

But not on the open roof near the paraphet to be seen from below.;)

[Attalus]

Yes, that causes a pleasing mental picture of Elendil saying to himself, "Yes! They are coming over the next rise. I shall climb up the stairs, three at a time, and see the splendor of their banners!" :D

[Gordis]

Yeah, most likely it was embroidering these splendid banners that took the Elves so long.:p

[Attalus]

Yeah, most likely it was embroidering these splendid banners that took the Elves so long.:pHey, maybe Galadriel and her maidens wove the stuff they made them out of. :cool:

[Voronwen]

Yes, that causes a pleasing mental picture of Elendil saying to himself, "Yes! They are coming over the next rise. I shall climb up the stairs, three at a time, and see the splendor of their banners!" :D

Awww! :o That's adorable!

And very... cinematic... Now, why doesn't someone make a film about the Last Alliance?

(Of course, if they did a poor job with it, i'd probably cry for the rest of my life. ;))

[Attalus]

Awww! :o That's adorable!

And very... cinematic... Now, why doesn't someone make a film about the Last Alliance?

(Of course, if they did a poor job with it, i'd probably cry for the rest of my life. ;))I'd watch it, and so would everyone here, but Christopher Tolkien is being a spoilsport about th whole thing. :(

[Alcuin]

Now, who in the world would watch a good football game on television when he could go himself and have the best seat in the stadium to see it with his own eyes? What great leader would closet himself to mind the computer screens when he could stand before all his troops, allies, and really be a leader? And what man can truly call himself a leader when he closets himself with computer and television screens when he should stand forth instead?

[Voronwen]

Now, who in the world would watch a good football game on television when he could go himself and have the best seat in the stadium to see it with his own eyes? What great leader would closet himself to mind the computer screens when he could stand before all his troops, allies, and really be a leader? And what man can truly call himself a leader when he closets himself with computer and television screens when he should stand forth instead?

Indeed! I like the way you think! :D

[Rosie Gamgee]

I'd watch it, and so would everyone here, but Christopher Tolkien is being a spoilsport about th whole thing. :(

No, no. If I were C. T., and I saw what Hollywood did to JRRT's LotR, I'd fight to the death to keep them from mutiliating anything else.

[Attalus]

No, no. If I were C. T., and I saw what Hollywood did to JRRT's LotR, I'd fight to the death to keep them from mutiliating anything else.*shrugs* The movies are imperfect, as are all mortal things, but I'd sure rather have them than not have them. Besides, the story line is more compact, has fewer main characters, and has a manageble story arc.

[Snowdog]

In "A Knife in the Dark", as they approach Weathertop, Merry remarks on a path they've found, that it looks 'barrow-wightish' and asks Aragorn if there was a barrow on Weathertop.

Getting old, like me, Aragorn answers the question with a story. :p It ends like this:



From Appendix B, in the Second Age:


Now, when I first read this passage, and even on subsequent re-readings, I always envisioned this guy (whom I learned more about later), as just standing at the parapet of this high tower, looking westward over the ramparts, watching for an army coming down the road.

But it only occurred to me the other day (how embarrassing) - that Elendil probably wasn't doing that.

He had a palantir on Amon Sul!

So - whether he stood, as Aragorn said, or actually sat, I suppose he watched for Gil-galad's army through his special "looking glass" rather than with the bare eye. :)

If it matters to anyone. :p

But it does show me how we can get an image in our minds when we read something, and still cling to that initial image even as we gather more information.

I'm sure he stood until his feet got tired, than sat. As for using the Palantiri, I think it would have given him an idea as to what was happening and a rough guestimate of Gil-galad's arrival, but doubt it was used in every little detail like a video-telephone.

[Lefty Scaevola]

And what man can truly call himself a leader when he closets himself with computer and television screens when he should stand forth instead?That would be me in my Evil Overlord mode of operations. I am scarier in concept and mystery than I am in person.

[Serenoli]

Gordis scores. :P Totally agree with her interpretation... The palantir probably did not come with a nice digital countdown, so even when he knew they were near, he must have been fretting to get an actual glimpse...