No man can kill the Nazgul - or can they?

[Noble Elf Lord]

As far as I know, the Witchking and the other Nazgul fought in the battle of the Last Alliance. :confused: If so, why did they flee after "defeat"? Since they could not have been killed by any of the warriors of the Alliance, should´nt they have swiped the hole army away and gained a nice bunch of wraith slaves? :D By the way, where is everyone? I have been away for weeks, and there aren´t any new posts anywhere. Rise from your graves and start writing, my fellow vampires! :)

[Valandil]

What makes you think that no man can kill a Nazgul? :confused:

Or that they had any power to do ANYthing after their Lord Sauron was slain by Gil-galad and Elendil?

[brownjenkins]

Actually, the Nazgul did seem to be quite active in Angmar after Sauron's downfall. But, to the general question, it seems that any Nazgul could be killed with and enchanted blade wielded by someone with a strong enough will to face them. The "no man can kill them" idea is related specifically to the Witch King, and is probably better interpreted as "no man will be the one to kill him".

The prophecy didn't make him invincible, it just pointed to how his fate would play out.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

IIRC, wasn't the text, "No living man may hinder him"? If so, that would seem to indicate that no man would be able to do him real harm.

[brownjenkins]

At the Battle of Fornost Glorfindel said to Earnur (to dissuade him from following the Witch King), "Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of Man shall he fall." Which I would call a prophecy.

Later, the Witch King says to Eowyn, "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!" But I've always taken that as the Witch King taking Glorfindel's prophecy, which he undoubtably heard of, too much at face value. It wasn't that a man couldn't have dealt the blow, just that a man wouldn't.

The breaking of any general protection from ordinary weapons the Witch King may have had seems to have come from Merry's enchanted barrow-blade, at which point anyone probably could have dealt the blow Eowyn did.

[Olmer]

"No living man may hinder him"? If so, that would seem to indicate that no man would be able to do him real harm.
Actually, it says that no living man can stop him. "To hinder", which means to hold back, is not equal "to fall", to go down, and quite incongruent with "to kill", to eliminate.It doesn't say that some harm can't be inflicted.

Here we have a proud boasting of an unconquerable warrior. His personal believes has nothing to do with an ingenuity of Arnor's smiths, who came up with a spell, which gave an ability to their blades to cut through the invisible web of substance and time bonds which was holding a nazgul together. So, the wraith were not invincible.
I think that some time ago a lot more than The Nine was walking around. (After all, by Gandalf's believe, a lot of lesser rings were made ,which have been in a circulation for quite longer time than the fabled 20, and all of them were perilous for mortals. Guess, how many mortals became as lucky as Smeagol?)
Seems to me that men of Arnor were in a successfull campaign for the elimination of some wandering wraith. ;)

[Noble Elf Lord]

What makes you think that no man can kill a Nazgul? :confused:

Or that they had any power to do ANYthing after their Lord Sauron was slain by Gil-galad and Elendil?

Because they didn´t... Just kidding. :) I suppose all I can say is that I think that the bond between the One and the 9 was so strong that the Nazgul could not have entirely vanished (=died).

Sorry to split hairs but Isildur "slay" Sauron. ;)

[Landroval]

Sorry to split hairs but Isildur "slay" Sauron. ;)
In what sense do you mean he slew him? He merely cut off his ring, after Sauron was thrown down by Elendil and Gil-Galad. Elrond says that the heat of Sauron's hand destroyed Gil-Galad - there was no way for Isildur to cut the ring if Sauron was not neutralised at that time.

[trolls' bane]

In what sense do you mean he slew him? He merely cut off his ring, after Sauron was thrown down by Elendil and Gil-Galad. Elrond says that the heat of Sauron's hand destroyed Gil-Galad - there was no way for Isildur to cut the ring if Sauron was not neutralised at that time.
What I think he meant was something more along the lines of Isildur initially slaying Sauron. (Note that as a response to Val saying that Sauron was slain by Elendil and Gil-Galad.)

[Noble Elf Lord]

In what sense do you mean he slew him? He merely cut off his ring, after Sauron was thrown down by Elendil and Gil-Galad. Elrond says that the heat of Sauron's hand destroyed Gil-Galad - there was no way for Isildur to cut the ring if Sauron was not neutralised at that time.
Hold your horses, I didn´t say Isildur slay Sauron, just quoted. And I think you got a good point there, E and G-G´s weapons probably made it possible to Isildur to cut the Ring. Then again, I thought the Ring was supposed to make Sauron invincible? Ignoring that E and G-G theory, how come was it possible to hurt Sauron? A paradox or a dilemma? By the way, check out my riddle in the riddle thread. I hope it´s not too easy. :)

[Landroval]

I didn´t say Isildur slay Sauron,
It certainly looked that way ;)
I thought the Ring was supposed to make Sauron invincible?
No; its primary purpose was to subdue the rings of the other elves, and it did have their properties too. But no one in Ea is invicible, by any means - save Eru, when He may come at the end, as foretold in the Athrabeth.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Fine, I suppose you know better. I can´t say things like that by heart... yet. :) How do you like my riddle? :D

[Landroval]

How do you like my riddle?
Too tough for me :D

[Noble Elf Lord]

Too tough for me :D What?! And I thought it would be too easy... :evil: A tip: it´s an item of sort.

[trolls' bane]

Riddle? :confused:

[elven dragonrider]

My theory is a mortal probably could, but just try to get close enough without being killed first! Don't think so in that department. But if a hobbit can do that kind of damage, then a man/woman should be able to do at least something. I would hope. :( :)
The world is good, Tom can prove it is old. Wait, where did he go? I need him to prove Evolution. hahahaha. Sorry, I got carried away with the post icon thing. Oh well, maybe I will scare them all away and have the board to myself. :D :) :) I like smilies too.
My theory is probably warped, because I don't study it as much as all ya'll do.

[elven dragonrider]

The riddle- my guess- the rings.

[trolls' bane]

My theory is a mortal probably could, but just try to get close enough without being killed first! Don't think so in that department. But if a hobbit can do that kind of damage, then a man/woman should be able to do at least something. I would hope. :( :)
The world is good, Tom can prove it is old. Wait, where did he go? I need him to prove Evolution. hahahaha. Sorry, I got carried away with the post icon thing. Oh well, maybe I will scare them all away and have the board to myself. :D :) :) I like smilies too.
My theory is probably warped, because I don't study it as much as all ya'll do.
The board all to yourself?

Not if I can help it. If anyone is taking over this board when no one else is around, it's me. *positions self for Vulcan death grip*

[elven dragonrider]

I guess we could fght it out... *pulls out steel spikes*
:)

[trolls' bane]

I guess we could fght it out... *pulls out steel spikes*
:)
...I guess so...
*pulls out Tenloss DX-9 Disruptor Rifle*

[elven dragonrider]

Watch out, I live quite near a very very very very large army base. I have relations.
*Strolls calmly over to air force jet*

Maybe we should . . . not kill anyone. What do you think?

First on the page! :)

[trolls' bane]

Watch out, I live quite near a very very very very large army base. I have relations.
*Strolls calmly over to air force jet*

Maybe we should . . . not kill anyone. What do you think?

First on the page! :)
Perhaps not, because after all I would hate to use my Imperial Starfleet to orbitally bombard such a peaceful place as this. :evil:

No your not. You're twenty first. :p

Am I the only one who still uses 200 posts/page? :rolleyes:

[Noble Elf Lord]

Please enter your guesses in the riddle forum. :) Although it is kinda my fault... :o But no, the answer is not the Rings. The answer includes but one item. See you at the Riddle forum. :D

[elven dragonrider]

Still haven't figured out the different forums yet, which one if the riddle forum?

[Noble Elf Lord]

Still haven't figured out the different forums yet, which one if the riddle forum? It´s "Riddling III". :)

[Rían]

At the Battle of Fornost Glorfindel said to Earnur (to dissuade him from following the Witch King), "Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of Man shall he fall." Which I would call a prophecy.

Later, the Witch King says to Eowyn, "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

Thanks for the quotes - I had forgotten the exact words.

Interesting how the WK took Glorfy's words and kind of expanded on them. Reminds me of Eve in the Garden of Eden expanding on God's words ... and they both got into trouble! :eek: :D

[elven dragonrider]

It´s "Riddling III". :)
Thanks! I'll go there.

[Finrod Felagund]

I always figured it referred to the Witch-King alone and did not apply to the other Nazgul

[Noble Elf Lord]

I always figured it referred to the Witch-King alone and did not apply to the other Nazgul Yep. Hmmm. They fear fire... since they fear it, surely they can be, if not destroyed, at least defeated with flames. Please note that I brought this up as a dilemma, I did´nt go around telling they can´t be destroyed before the Ring had molten. :D :D

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Actually, it says that no living man can stop him. "To hinder", which means to hold back, is not equal "to fall", to go down, and quite incongruent with "to kill", to eliminate.It doesn't say that some harm can't be inflicted.

That is why I put 'real' harm. Obviously, a scratch on his knuckles wouldn't really hinder him, but it seems that any serious harm would do so.

[caboose007]

... Mind you... Eowyn wasn't exactly a man now was she? The prophecy mentioned nothing about women.... hmmmm so that would mean that if your really wanted to defeat the Witch King easily you could just tell a bunch of pregnant women that he called them fat... simple really.

[Lefty Scaevola]

There is nothing in Tolkien about the Nazgul being invulnerable to attacks from men. There is merely the prophecy by Glorfindal, a High Elf, about the the Witchking.
"Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall"

This is just a prophecy of what will happen to one particular being, not a statement of what could happen to being like him.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Perhaps not invulnerable, but I think they could not be entirely destroyed (sorry have I said this before? I haven´t been able to get here for weeks, it´s so annoying :mad: ) since they were bound to the One... after all, the foundations of Barad-Dur would not crumble before the One was destroyed.

[Jon S.]

No man may hinder me either. My wife, by contrast, can put a stop to me. :o

Lucky for the Witch King he was single (or was he?! :eek: ). :)

[Gordis]

He wasn't :p

[Fohel]

In what sense do you mean he slew him? He merely cut off his ring, after Sauron was thrown down by Elendil and Gil-Galad. Elrond says that the heat of Sauron's hand destroyed Gil-Galad - there was no way for Isildur to cut the ring if Sauron was not neutralised at that time.

Didn't Isildur take Elendil's sorwd, Narsil and use it to cut the ring off Sauron's hand? If this is so wouldn't Elendil have to be dead first? :confused:

[Lefty Scaevola]

Ellendil mortaly wounded Sauron's body, and was crushed or suffacated when Suaron fell on him. Isildur cut off Sauron's finger with the ring on it. Isildur may or may not have finished off Sauron's body.

Edit: I seem to remember the above from somewhere in HoME, but it is porely indexed, and I can not find it nor be sure of its authenticity.

[Gordis]

I remember nothing from HOME on the matter, but I guess Isildur was very lucky to catch Sauron at a right moment - after he was "brought down" = neutralized, severely wounded, but before he "died", that is before his fea actually fled his hroa. Because, as we know from the Letters, bodiless Sauron's fea was perfectly capable to carry the Ring with it while fleeing.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Yep, JRRT clearly states in a letter that bodiless Valar and Maiar can still interact physically with the world (and inddeed that was the manner of much of their world building the world) and that that is how Sauron carried the ring away from Numenor. More technically, that the nature of the Ainurs' Fea was different from the Children of Illuvatar, and that the it was more fully a part of the physical world (and indeed that being bodiless was the natural state of the Ainur) than the Fea of Men or Elves.

Edit for reference: Letter # 211

[Noble Elf Lord]

He wasn't :p

So how did you get along? :D :D :p

[Gordis]

So how did you get along? :D :D :p
Not too well...*sigh* :p (see our famous RP Wraiths-Kings).

[Ingwe]

He wasn't :p

He may not have been single LoL. There's nothing that says he was, nothing that says he wasn't (though it's generally assumed he was single given that he was a Nazgul and such). There are theories out there in fact (in the devilry of the non-canon extended universe) that one of the Nazgul in fact was a female, she was like the 4th in line or something like that. She apparently helped Kamul (sp?) construct Dol Guldur. She apparently had something for the Witch-King, but chose Kamul (sp?) instead. Wow what a twisted love circle, considering they're Nazgul and all. :p

[Jon S.]

I'm sure there must be female Nazgul because years ago I dated some of them.

:o

:D

[Ingwe]

I'm sure there must be female Nazgul because years ago I dated some of them.

:o

:D

LoL. I feel your pain LoL.