Are there any homosexual characters in The Silmarillion?

[Peter_20]

Really, I've always thought at least ONE character in this huge tale should've been homosexual, seeing as there are hundreds of characters in the book.
I always liked to think Fingon and Maedhros were a couple, but since they're cousins I find it hard to believe.

It's interesting how some Elves never wedded and had children, but still lived thousands of years (sexual desire ;)), so characters like Aegnor and Celebrimbor could most likely have been homosexual, or possibly asexual.

[carlrodd]

i'm pretty sure tolkien made no consideration of homosexuality while crafting his work. i would assume, given their passionate nature, that elves who remained unhitched for so long were completely immersed in other things.....war, creating beautiful and terrible things, building great cities etc.

[brownjenkins]

Tolkien actually seems to avoid sexuality, of either kind, almost completely in his stories, other than when it is necessary. But, given his christian background and the time he grew up in, I'd have to think he would never have included any kind of homosexuality.

[Peter_20]

Tolkien actually seems to avoid sexuality, of either kind, almost completely in his stories, other than when it is necessary. But, given his christian background and the time he grew up in, I'd have to think he would never have included any kind of homosexuality.That's a pity, because if he were to include homosexual details somewhere, this would make me respect him even more.

Oh well, I guess it ain't that bad though.

[jammi567]

Just because Tolkien didn't put it in, and didn't mean to put it in, it doesn't mean that we can't infer.

[Butterbeer]

sheesh

I'm much more worried by the glaring ommisions of Alien sex-trippers to both planet earth and Middle earth, in his works frankly! :rolleyes:

[hectorberlioz]

At least there's McKellen's additions to the movies...

[brownjenkins]

Much to my disappointment, not all the good things in life involve sex. :D

[bropous]

Any blithering idiot who wants to inject homosexual themes into Tolkien's works is just practicing baseless projectionsim.

JRR Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and the concept of homosexuality was abhorrent to him. Anyone who tells you different is a revisionist.

Adding homosexual themes might make you respect Tolkien more? It's obvious you know nothing about the man nor his works. The man never even included heterosexual themes in his works other than this man was married to that woman or this man fell in love with that woman. He doesn't have the men graphically humping any woman, or for that matter, an Elf man buggering a dwarf man, or an Edain getting killed by having sex with a horse.

Don't make me projectile vomit. All of Tolkien's works were published long before political correctness and the worship of homoeroticism. Thank heavens.

Pretty blitheringly stupid statement for a person to make, even if they are in Sverge.

Have some respect for a wonderful work of literature without having to inject perversion into it, and I assure you, JRR Tolkien thought of homosexuality as perversion. Read a little about the man and his opinions and you will find that buggery was not at the top of issues the man thought proper or acceptable.

[bropous]

A little more clarification.

So you have limited respect for JRR Tolkien because he has not included homosexual characters?

I am assuming you also have limited respect for the majority of Western Literature for the lack of homosexual themes.

Little one, you are an obvious child of the PC movement. Gotta inflict the homosexual movement on every work of literature, or state that you cannot respect the authors for non-inclusion of same.

The big pro-homosexual push is only 20 or 30 years old, not a long history of the big push to inject homosexual acceptance in all aspects of life. Do you also have less respect for Carl Sagan for not injecting homosexual themes in astrophysics? Have less respect for mathemeticians for not including homosexual themes in advanced mathematics? Have less respect for Leif Ericksson for not turning his voyages to Vinland into homosexual Love Boat cruises?

JRR Tolkien did not include homosexual characters. The concept was never on the man's radar screen. He lived in a devout, scholarly world, where homosexuality was anathema. It may have occurred at Oxford, well, most definitely occurred, evinced by the homosexual Soviet spy ring from there, but it certainly was not admired.

We've had this argument here before, with some PC homoeroticophilic persons actually trying to say that when Sam kisses Frodo, that it was to express homosexual erotic attraction. It had nothing to do with gay make-out sessions on the slopes of Orodruin, it was about BROTHERLY love.

Tolkien spent years in the trenches in France in WWI. He saw dear, dear friends with whom he had spent years in school back in England die right in front of his eyes. He may have kissed dying men as an expression of respect, a fighting brother saying goodbye to a fighting brother who laid down his life so that Tolkien could live. To taint such actions is to show great disrespect for the simple purity of the NORMAL love of a man for his fellow man. He didn't french kiss his buddies then flip them over and bugger them.

If you cannot grasp that The Lord of the Rings and the rest of Tolkien's works are perfect as they are without homosexual themes (and, yes, hard to read for someone who can't read well, but by reading and striving to understand, you expand your reading skills) then I highly recommend you use a search engine, type in "modern fantasy novels homoerotic themes" and google to your little heart's content.

There is plenty of homerotic fantasy out there without having to slam JRR Tolkien for not including themes he would have found patently offensive, as I find your original query.

[brownjenkins]

If you gotta have "the other side", you can always read Bored of the Rings (http://www.amazon.com/Bored-Rings-Parody-Tolkiens-Lord/dp/0451452615). It's kind of dated, but still a riot. :p

[Butterbeer]

... is it also a scandal perhaps that Humpty dumpty - known for sitting on the fence ... fell off?


Hot chilli kebabs of doom!

I also find it odd that there are glaring ommisions of ecological good practice in Winnie the Pooh!

But that's just me ... ;)

[bropous]

You guys rock!

[Peter_20]

Wow, bropous, you really need to calm down a few thousand degrees.

[Tessar]

Loudly stated as Bropous' statement may have been, he's quite right Peter.

I personally have never found the inclusion of gay characters in stories or movies to add any extra 'value' if it could have just as well been done with heterosexual pairings. I don't believe that it detracts value, either, but I don't think that it adds anything.

Now if you want to go and write an essay or story that reflects on the issues of sexuality in modern day life, in a fantasy land, or where ever else you so choose, that's something entirely different. But adding gay characters to Tolkien would just be pointless in my opinion because it would add nothing to the story, and searching for gay characters where there are none is a tad silly.

[The Gaffer]

In the case of LOTR, I would agree that it would detract from the whole point of the story, which is about "the greater love hath no man..."

I'm slightly curious as to why some people feel the need to write slash fiction with Frodo and Sam as gay lovers. I think it's wrong to label it "PC"; I think it's about something else. Not sure what though. It seems to appeal to women more than men, for example.

[Peter_20]

Listen, I'm not trying to add some gay sex action in Tolkien's works, OK?
I'm just saying that it's kinda weird that hundreds and hundreds of characters are heterosexual, with no exceptions whatsoever.
It would be cool if some of the characters just WERE homosexuals, period.
And no, they don't have to "show it" or anything, just BE it.

Seriously, Tolkien has created LOTS of characters in his works, and he's trying to tell me that they are all full-blown heterosexuals?
No way, that's just absurd.

[The Gaffer]

Not really. How many homosexual characters are there in classic literature generally? How about European legends and folklore? How many are identified as sexual in any way?

[hectorberlioz]

To be honest, I'm extremely grateful to Tolkien than he didn't concentrate on sexual stuff at all. The kissing scene between Faramir and Eowyn is the only "close" lovey dovey scene in the whole work. Sexual orientation just...is not in a work like LotR.

[hectorberlioz]

I'm slightly curious as to why some people feel the need to write slash fiction with Frodo and Sam as gay lovers. I think it's wrong to label it "PC"; I think it's about something else. Not sure what though. It seems to appeal to women more than men, for example.

Or Aragorn and Faramir.

Ian McKellen did this, to a smaller degree, in the films. Thats why I say...we should ditch the Gandalf if he plans on messing with The Hobbit too.

[The Gaffer]

Ian McKellen did this, to a smaller degree, in the films.
:confused:

Where??

[hectorberlioz]

:confused:

Where??

He admits it in the FotR commentary (SE).

[Peter_20]

To be honest, I'm extremely grateful to Tolkien than he didn't concentrate on sexual stuff at all. The kissing scene between Faramir and Eowyn is the only "close" lovey dovey scene in the whole work. Sexual orientation just...is not in a work like LotR.Then I'll ask you all: why do homosexual characters equal to sexual scenes?

It's borderline unnatural that all characters in Arda are heterosexual.
I swear there are homosexual guys in that world as well, no matter what Tolkien says.
He would be really weird if he seriously thought a whole planet would exclusively consist of heterosexuals.

Possible characters are Maedhros, Caranthir, Gil-galad, Angrod, Aegnor, Frodo, Boromir... just to state some examples.

It's pretty interesting how those Elves survived for thousands of years without having sex and getting children even ONCE.

[hectorberlioz]

Then I'll ask you all: why does homosexual characters equal to sexual scenes?

Then why do you care? If you can't tell/see it, then it doesn't really matter; and you can leave it simply at guessing or wishing if someone was gay etc...

It isn't in the books, zippo. In the movies you can read some stuff into the elves etc...filmmakers version.

[hectorberlioz]

Then I'll ask you all: why do homosexual characters equal to sexual scenes?

It's borderline unnatural that all characters in Arda are heterosexual.
I swear there are homosexual guys in that world as well.

Possible characters are Maedhros, Caranthir, Gil-galad, Angrod, Aegnor, Frodo, Boromir... just to state some examples.

It's pretty interesting how those Elves survived for thousands of years without having sex and getting children even ONCE.

Thats reading into it, and thats your choice/view...
Objectively though, it would not have entered Tolkien's mind to expand so far into his world that he had to make people gay or straight or in-between.

[Earniel]

It would be cool if some of the characters just WERE homosexuals, period.
I still don't quite see the attraction of why LoTR would be cooler with homosexuals. Would LoTR be so much better when J.R.R. added somewhere in the Lorien chapters "Oh, and Haldir prefers men, by the way."?

Seems a very limited way to enjoy fiction, if you ask me. Just because characters can be different doesn't mean they have to be.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

People gotta chill. :D

I think it's even funnier that no one ever has a head cold. Most of us, sad to say, spend more time sneezing than having sex, whatever our preferences.

Yet, Bilbo's birthday at the Long Lake is the ONLY real snotfest in all those centuries.

I can only assume Tolkien had a deep religious objection to catarrh. ;) :D

Like Jesus, it's perfectly possible those elves had families, and it just didn't seem relevant to to the story to mention it.

And I CANNOT believe, Butterbeer, that you don't see the clear endorsement of sustainable living in every DETAIL of the 100 Acre Wood lifestyle. If it isn't a full on indictment of suburban consumerism, right down to the reused "Sanders" sign, I'll, well, I'll eat my soyink copy of "Wind in The Willows", noted British metaphor of Imperialism. :D

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

"Oh, and Haldir prefers men, by the way."?
but you know he did. :D

Admit it. He's a nice guy, but he set your gaydar off, bigtime. :D

[Earniel]

but you know he did. :D

Admit it. He's a nice guy, but he set your gaydar off, bigtime. :D
Why'dya think he was the first example I thought of? ;)

[hectorberlioz]

Why'dya think he was the first example I thought of? ;)

In the movies, yes. In addition to Gandalf.

[Tessar]

Well, you know those Europeans. They're all a bit gay, really.


*RUNS FOR HIS LIFE!* :D

Kiiiiding.

... *keeps on running anyways*

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

If you didn't know Sir Ian was gay, you wouldn't think his Gandalf was. Honestly. :(

There have been "gay" portrayals" of a lot of characters. There have been camp elements. There have been gay actors playing heterosexuals, and there have been straight actors playing gay characters. And ther have been completely over the top flamers.

But Gandalf wasn't one of them. I've seen Sir Ian be swish, and he didn't do that. :(

Makes me sad that you're letting this upset you.

[hectorberlioz]

If you didn't know Sir Ian was gay, you wouldn't think his Gandalf was. Honestly. :(
Sis, if he was meddling enough to put a little Frodo/Sam tension in there, he was also capable of making Gandalf a litte...you know.



Makes me sad that you're letting this upset you.
Where is it upsetting me? I'm not upset, I'm combatative.;)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Sir Ian is a great actor.

If he wanted Gandalf to be so hot that he made Cassanova give up girls, I seriously doubt Peter Jackson could have stopped him. That man has milage.

But he didn't.

So why not take it as "He's messing with you, because he knew he had an international forum to yank your chain about gay stuff, and he has a long history of doing so."

He's just being a brat. Trust me. Takes one to know one. :D

[hectorberlioz]

He is a good actor, hardly great though...;)

You think he's pulling legs with his admitting on the LotR commentary?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

of the Grey and White book diaries?

He's not closeted, at all, and he has his POV. So I think, if he wanted to say, "Hey, today I made sure buggery was a subtext." he'd have said it. :D

I just don't think it's there.

(you sweet talker, you. *bats eyes*) :D

[hectorberlioz]

I know he's not closeted, and he sure wasn't closeted about admitting that he meddled with Sam/Frodo ideas...

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I saw all those features, and I don't recall being struck with an 'Egad! :eek: ', but perhaps I was inattentive. ;)

[hectorberlioz]

Undoubtedly;)

[Butterbeer]

Listen, I'm not trying to add some gay sex action in Tolkien's works, OK?
I'm just saying that it's kinda weird that hundreds and hundreds of characters are heterosexual, with no exceptions whatsoever.
It would be cool if some of the characters just WERE homosexuals, period.
And no, they don't have to "show it" or anything, just BE it.

Seriously, Tolkien has created LOTS of characters in his works, and he's trying to tell me that they are all full-blown heterosexuals?
No way, that's just absurd.

heh, whilst i can take your point - my view is simply and clearly this - one shouldn't forget when and by whom this was written.

Trying a 21st Century, and thus revisionist, take, in modern day context, on both the author and on the time in which it was written and before that in part concieved ... in terms of both the story in historical and social let alone moralisitic terms into one or two generations after it was written seems entirely nonsenisical.

To me, Peter 20, had the question been posed in a less 'black and white' manner and with more subletly it may have engendered more of a debate...

But to my mind, you might as well ask why the 'dark age' Norwegians didn't write in classical Greek ?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

respond to post 27, or I shall cry.

BIG tears. :p

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Oh wow oh wow oh wow. Must post, must post. *posts*



I seriously doubt Tolkien even thought about it. "Hmm... should I have gay characters in my book?"
Yes, he does have male characters say to other male characters that they love them, but that is more of a deep deep (deep) friendship love.

Well, you know those Europeans. They're all a bit gay, really.


*RUNS FOR HIS LIFE!*

Kiiiiding.

... *keeps on running anyways*
Lol out loud. :p

Wait... why are you talking about Winnie the Pooh?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It's pretty interesting how those Elves survived for thousands of years without having sex and getting children even ONCE.

It's in their nature. Look at the Elves who were married; they had very, very few children over the course of those same thousands of years, often only one.


Lol out loud. :p


Laugh out loud out loud? :p

How many homosexual characters are there in classic literature generally?

More than you might think...

[Rían]

re elves and children - it's my understand, through reading Tolkien's other writings, that conception was a choice. This means that a husband and wife could choose to enjoy sex but choose to not conceive at that time. The perfect birth control! :D

[Earniel]

Side discussion about Winnie the Pooh has been split off and moved to its own thread here. (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=14215)

[Rían]

*pout*

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Laugh out loud out loud? :p
It's from da Monk. :D
Side discussion about Winnie the Pooh has been split off and moved to its own thread here.
What the heck was that about anyway?

[Butterbeer]

er, Winnie the pooh, i think, Merry! :)

If we wanted to widen the current topic (provided Merry does not side-track us as per usual :p ;) )

we could ask: were there any sexually repressed characters in Tolkien's world? If so is this because they abstain? save themselves till marriage? or can we question their orientation? or were they actually like rabbits but no one talked about it, unlike today, and it was just that Elven women, living immortal lives just couldn't conceive much -

-otherwise, let's face it - they'd over-populate the planet - and there goes the story right off - the last alliance of men and Elves??? - what oh what is poor old Sauron going to do against the gathering armies of 17 million Elves??? - and anyway -

-imagine when it is Great great great great great great great great grandad's birthday - and all the sons grandchildren, great grandchildren, great great grandchildren etc etc etc .... (phew!) cousins, second cousins, their guests, brothers, aunts, uncles, his parents and grandparents, their relations etc etc - turned up for the party!! :eek:

Elven outside caterers and greeting card artists would be the new elite in an elven megatropolis - and would there be any trees left?

All those presents to be wrapped - it would eternally be present giving day - - let alone flets and buildings and barrels and bows and whotnot.

So - were elves actually rabid Rasputins - but the elf women could only conceive rarely? After all they always are happy to burst into song and they rarely seem tense!

Best, BB

[Peter_20]

I actually tend to think that Elves don't care about birthdays.
I mean, think about it:

"Congratulations, Galadriel!
You're now 5000 years old!"

[Lotesse]

er, Winnie the pooh, i think, Merry! :)

If we wanted to widen the current topic (provided Merry does not side-track us as per usual :p ;) )

we could ask: were there any sexually repressed characters in Tolkien's world? If so is this because they abstain? save themselves till marriage? or can we question their orientation? or were they actually like rabbits but no one talked about it, unlike today, and it was just that Elven women, living immortal lives just couldn't conceive much -

-otherwise, let's face it - they'd over-populate the planet - and there goes the story right off - the last alliance of men and Elves??? - what oh what is poor old Sauron going to do against the gathering armies of 17 million Elves??? - and anyway -

-imagine when it is Great great great great great great great great grandad's birthday - and all the sons grandchildren, great grandchildren, great great grandchildren etc etc etc .... (phew!) cousins, second cousins, their guests, brothers, aunts, uncles, his parents and grandparents, their relations etc etc - turned up for the party!! :eek:

Elven outside caterers and greeting card artists would be the new elite in an elven megatropolis - and would there be any trees left?

All those presents to be wrapped - it would eternally be present giving day - - let alone flets and buildings and barrels and bows and whotnot.

So - were elves actually rabid Rasputins - but the elf women could only conceive rarely? After all they always are happy to burst into song and they rarely seem tense!

Best, BB

:D Such an awesome post!!!

[Jon S.]

What Tolkien Officially Said About Elf Sex

By Tyellas

http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_officially_said_abo.htm

[Lotesse]

Great essay, Jon S., very cool, fascinating and extremely question-answering, 'cause me, for one, I have always, always wondered about these familial-relations sort of private elvish sexual lives, elf teenagers, elf lust, how long elf puberty is - those lucky bastards had fifty years to grow up before they had to bite the bullet and be grown up! Fifty years! but this is a great read, cool link baby, thanks ~ :cool:

[katya]

Ok, I know I'm probably going to hell for this (among other things) but I think Maedhros and Fingon are adorable together. As close male friends even, fine. But I always thought one thing was a little odd. I don't remember where I read it but there was a note somewhere about what is acceptable for elves in terms of incest. There was one OK relation mentioned that fit Maedhros / Fingon but was impossible for all or almost all other elves, since it involved remarriage and elves didn't remarry after that one time (right?). My memory's a little hazy on the details so correct me if I'm wrong.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

More than you might think...

Official retraction: Upon rethinking it of course occured to me that classically people were not really considered to be homosexual, or heterosexual, but only their actions were, so that there in fact are not 'homosexual characters', per se, in classical literature. At least, there are not 'more than you might think', so I hereby retract my statement. Yes, you can all mark your calendars. :p

[hectorberlioz]

Fido & Aeneas?

Oops, thats Dido & Aeneas;)

[Finrod Felagund]

"Seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them." Thus rape, molestation, and downloading slash all seem to have been out of the question for 99.9% of elves.

Hahaha!

[katya]

Ok, back on the whole Maedhros/Fingon thing, this was in "What Tolkien Officially Said About Elf Sex", but does anyone know the part in Morgoth's ring that it's referring to? Notes in Morgoth's Ring imply that, if you were first cousins but your uncle was your father's half-brother, this abrogated the incest taboo enough that marriage was an option. The thing about this that always struck me was, how, if not through remarriage, would an elf even end up with a half-brother in the first place? And isn't Finwe = Mirel / Indis the only instance of this? (Is it? Not sure..) So.... basically, the only significance such a rule would have would be to allow any of Feanor's sons to marry Aredhel (who's with Eol), Galadriel (who has Celeborn), or one of the boys. Like say, Fingon...?

Now, don't misunderstand; I'm not saying I really think Maedhros and Fingon are a couple, but it's kind of...and intriguing possibility. Any thoughts?

[Willow Oran]

How many homosexual characters are there in classic literature generally?

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem
More than you might think...

Official retraction: Upon rethinking it of course occured to me that classically people were not really considered to be homosexual, or heterosexual, but only their actions were, so that there in fact are not 'homosexual characters', per se, in classical literature. At least, there are not 'more than you might think', so I hereby retract my statement.

Don't. Expand it to account for historical correctness of definitions if you must. But it is true enough to stand on it's own. This is why possesion of a dirty sense of humor seems to be a requirment for all latin teachers...

Poor Tolkien, being british, likely had censored classical texts to learn from when young and being Catholic as well, never stood a chance.

Just think what he might have written had he been more inspired by the uncut classical texts and pagan pantheons; Incest would be legal, shows of Manly Love/Bonding would have entailed more sweat and less gore, and Manwe would have an unhealthy fascination with bovines, nevermind that swan scandal...

We have all sorts of entertainment involving all manners of sex and ranging from ancient to hot off the press. It is permissible to have an epic story in which characters form close relationships without having hot monkey sex immediately following every battle. The beauty of the depth to which Tolkien took his work is that he doesn't have to include sex. He gives enough background that we may infer it's presence and nature without it being either present or important to the events on which the story is focused.

Should the thought of idealized, blindingly handsome and angelically heroic elven warriors or [insert hyberbolized adjectives] hobbits/men/dwarves/ainu/ents/orcs/etc. having sex turn you on, then by all means, be turned on in the privacy of your home. But don't assume that said fantasies would make the story better.

[brownjenkins]

The beauty of the depth to which Tolkien took his work is that he doesn't have to include sex. He gives enough background that we may infer it's presence and nature without it being either present or important to the events on which the story is focused.

You mean the Sam/Frodo thing? :D

[Willow Oran]

Infer away if that's your pleasure. It's certainly one of the most plausible pairings I've seen bandied about.

*thinks of the Elrond/Treebeard story she stumbled across long years ago and shudders*

At least Frodo/Sam is physically possible. :rolleyes: ;)

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

I felt a sort of...something...with Maedhros and Fingon since I was very young. I don't know an English word for it at the moment. I think it's a vibration or vibe maybe?

Anyway, I feel that they were intimate, though perhaps not sexual.

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I totally agree with bropous in every way.

[Draken]

Just browse through some fangirl fanfiction. Apparently every character is gay, in every story. Ever.

[ecthelion]

what is fan girl fanfiction?:confused:

[BeardofPants]

Well, it's where the male elf takes his peepee, and the girl human from earth takes off all her clothes and... *insert birds & bees lecture here*.

;)

[Mari]

Except that it often includes boy-boy relations and often doesn't go much further then a kiss. A few people I know are into this kind of thing and I sometimes check their English before they publish it online. Some stories are really funny! (Allthough they are certainly not intended te be :D)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Don't. Expand it to account for historical correctness of definitions if you must. But it is true enough to stand on it's own. This is why possesion of a dirty sense of humor seems to be a requirment for all latin teachers...

Oh, yes, homosexuality is certainly very present in the classical tradition; I'm just really not sure they would consider a person to be "gay" or "straight". They would just look at the act, rather than trying to categorise the people, from the vast majority of what I've seen. In modern terminology, it would be more accurate to call what you find in classics "bisexuality", although even that doesn't really fit it. Achilles had his Patroclus, and his Bryseis; Zeus had his Europa, and his Ganymede; Socrates had his wife, and his Alcibiades; and so on.

[BeardofPants]

Yeah, but those are all prominent people. I wonder if those relationships were part & parcel of being wealthy or upper class, cos that sorta continued past the classical period (behaviours being acceptable in the upper class, but not so much in the lower ones).

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

Just browse through some fangirl fanfiction. Apparently every character is gay, in every story. Ever.

I can't stand to read any fanfiction. I prefer the original stories how they were meant to be and not changed or mangled by some crazed fans.

[Valandil]

I can't stand to read any fanfiction. I prefer the original stories how they were meant to be and not changed or mangled by some crazed fans.

I don't mangle. I fill gaps. :)

[Gordis]

I can't stand to read any fanfiction. I prefer the original stories how they were meant to be and not changed or mangled by some crazed fans.

The best fanfics change nothing in the main plot. They only explore Tolkien's world further - filling the gaps and telling new stories with their own original characters set in Tolkien's great universe. Some fics out there are quite good - sometimse they are even better written, as to the depth of character development, than Tolkien's own stories. Some but not most. Unfortunately, about 90 percent of fanfics are awful crap.:o

[inked]

NO! (see page 1 of this thread) :eek:

[Curubethion]

Oh, yes, homosexuality is certainly very present in the classical tradition; I'm just really not sure they would consider a person to be "gay" or "straight". They would just look at the act, rather than trying to categorise the people, from the vast majority of what I've seen. In modern terminology, it would be more accurate to call what you find in classics "bisexuality", although even that doesn't really fit it. Achilles had his Patroclus, and his Bryseis; Zeus had his Europa, and his Ganymede; Socrates had his wife, and his Alcibiades; and so on.
That's only in non-Judeo-Christian mythologies, however. The Judeo-Christian mythologies, which Tolkien primarily wrote from, did not feature homosexuality in a positive light.

The presence of homosexuality was also due to a mild dose of misogyny. In the Greek philosophical worldview, women were lesser beings than men. Therefore, the most perfect love would be that between a man and a man, because love between a man and a woman would only be "degrading" to the man.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yeah, but those are all prominent people. I wonder if those relationships were part & parcel of being wealthy or upper class, cos that sorta continued past the classical period (behaviours being acceptable in the upper class, but not so much in the lower ones).

Well, at least in ancient Greece, pederasty (which, it should be noted, is not the same thing as what we call homosexuality today) was viewed by many as being a higher form of love than that of a man and woman, though not to the point that it should exclude it; I also wonder to what extent ancient Athens or Sparta had class differences among the citizens. I'm not aware of such cut and dry class lines in ancient Greece as you would find in Roman or medieval culture, though perhaps you, having studied anthropology, might be able to share something I am not aware of. I'd certainly be interested. :)

But, also, the question was brought up in regard to the classical literary tradition, which tends to focus around, as you put it, "prominent people".

That's only in non-Judeo-Christian mythologies, however. The Judeo-Christian mythologies, which Tolkien primarily wrote from, did not feature homosexuality in a positive light.

I don't really think that JRR primarily wrote from the Judeo-Christian mythologies; they were the basis of his layout of the world, but the actual stories and the characters seem (to me, at least) more influenced by pagan myth.

The presence of homosexuality was also due to a mild dose of misogyny. In the Greek philosophical worldview, women were lesser beings than men. Therefore, the most perfect love would be that between a man and a man, because love between a man and a woman would only be "degrading" to the man.

Just as a minor niggling point, it's not a man and a man, it's a man and an adolescent boy. That aside, I think that the misogyny which you refer to certainly helped to defend the pederastic tradition, but I don't really think you can say it stands as a cause to the Greek boy-love; I imagine it would have existed, even if there hadn't been the misogynistic tendencies.

[BeardofPants]

I was merely wondering aloud. I studied ancient history as well, and didn't really recollect much as it's been a while. I did a quick search in wikipedia (just now) and came up with this:

"Though the love of boys was freely practiced by the aristocracy, it remained a source of mirth for the common people, and a topic lampooned by the comedians. Aristophanes, in Peace, in a parody of Ganymede riding on the back of Zeus in eagle form, has his character ride to Olympus on the back of a dung beetle, a scatological pun on anal sex."

I've not read any sources for quite a while, so I've no real thoughts on this, and there's no much anthropology I can bring in (;)). Was really just musing out loud, cos certainly in latter historic periods, pederasty, etc, was openly practiced by aristocrats, and so forth, but not so much by lower ranking peoples (ie commoners).

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Speaking of Aristophanes, I remember one character talking about wishing some father in the society would come to him and complain that he (the character) hadn't been pursuing his (the father's) son; as I recall, the character was at least in fairly dire financial straits, which would seem to indicate that he would be in the lower strata of Athenian society.

EDIT: But we're rather off-topic... :o

[Jon S.]

Months later, I think I finally can articulate my answer to the OP's question. Yes, there are homosexual characters in the Simarillion. There has to be because the characters in the book include the full community of Elvish, mannish, and Dwarvish peoples and whether some are able to acknowledge it or not, a certain percentage of every community, always, has been, is, and will be gay.

Whether Tolkien presented any of his characters as overtly or covertly homosexual is a different question. Yes, it happens to be the question most of y'all would argue over but the answer to OP's question remains "yes."

[Curufin]

On the topic at hand, I couldn't care less.

It's not a Mills and Boon novel, and it shouldn't be read to discover characters' sexuality.

But, I do suggest that you take Aegnor/Aikanáro off the list of possibles, and read Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.

He was in love with Andreth, a daughter of Men.

[Curufin]

Ok, back on the whole Maedhros/Fingon thing, this was in "What Tolkien Officially Said About Elf Sex", but does anyone know the part in Morgoth's ring that it's referring to?

Ok, re-read this thread...I've read Laws and Customs many, many times, and that is not in there that I remember! I think that site may be misinterpreting. Anybody back me up/prove me wrong on this?

EDIT: Ok, that site is pulling it out of it's backside with the uncle and half-brother stuff. First cousins can marry. Simple. That's all Fingon and Maedhros would have needed to get around the incest 'thing.' This is from Laws and Customs among the Eldar.

’ For marriages of the Eldar do not take place between ‘close kin’. This again is a matter in which they needed no law or instruction, but acted by nature, though they gave reasons for it later, declaring that it was due to the nature of bodies, and the processes of generation; but also due to the nature of bodies and the processes of generation; but also to the nature of fëar. ‘For,’ they said, ‘fëar are also akin, and the motions of love between them, as say between a brother and sister, are not of the same kind as those that make the beginning of marriage. By ‘close kin’ for this purpose was meant members of one ‘house’, especially sisters and brothers. None of the Eldar married those in direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed ‘half-sisters’ or ‘half-brothers’. Since as has been shown only in the rarest events did the Eldar have second spouses, half-sister or half-brother had for them a special meaning: they used the terms when both of the parents of one child were related to both of the parents of another, as when two brothers married two sisters of another family, or a sister and a brother of one house married a brother and sister of another: things which often occurred. Otherwise, ‘first cousins’, as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.

[Aikanáro]

They're not using 'half-brother' in the regular sense. From HoME X:

...nor did they wed 'half-sisters' or 'half-brothers'. Since as has been shown only in the rarest events did the Eldar have second spouses, half-sister or half-brother had for them a special meaning: they used these terms when both of the parents of one child were related to both of the parents of another, as when two brothers married two sisters of another family, or a sister and a brother of one house married a brother and sister of another: things which often occurred. Otherwise, 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.

I think that might be what they were referring to?

Edit: But you already found it. I don't type quickly enough!

Edit #2 - might as well add my opinion:

I don't think that any of the elves Tolkien wrote about were gay, simply because of Tolkien's views on the subject. I'd like to think, as someone else has mentioned, that there were gay elves, after all, why shouldn't there be?

Fingon and Maedhros - I've come across some well-written fanfic on the subject, but I'm not convinced. Interestingly, though, that first cousin marriages weren't entirely taboo for the Eldar does make Maeglin/Idril a lot less creepy.

[katya]

Thanks for the explanations, Curu and Aika. That puts my mind at ease a little. I would've just looked it up myself to verify but I didn't know where to look... Anyway, I don't think I ever really thought Maedhros/Fingon were anything but friends, but I still think they're totally cute together. :)

[Curufin]

I think they are too. :)

I play Maedhros on another board, and we play them...well...they're not exactly homosexual, but there is a deep love between them. Is it sexual? Well, we don't really comment on that, and they never act upon it, it's kind of for the reader to decide. ;)

[katya]

That's pretty much how it is in my mind. A deep love, of sorts, but whether it's sexual or not is their business and not mine. :)

[Curufin]

Exactly. That's how I feel about the characters. And a lot of the Elves in LotR - well, they didn't marry or have children in times of war. And Tolkien doesn't talk much about their children. We know Maglor, Curufin and Caranthir were married (Of Dwarves and Men, HoME XII), and that Celegorm was certainly heterosexual as he tried to force Lúthien into marriage. Maedhros and the twins were unmarried (ibid.). But Tolkien himself states that he just didn't tell their stories. Speaking of Celebrimbor: 'What then was his heritage? He must have been descended from one of Fëanor's sons, about whose progeny nothing has been told...' (ibid.).

I don't think it hurts anything if people want to assume that a character is gay. It certainly doesn't bother me any. It's the 21st century, and I'm as open as anyone else. In fact, I didn't vote for Clinton in 1996 because he opposed civil unions. But I do think that it is contrary to what Tolkien would have wished for his world.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I would point out that the idea of homosexual persons did not even exist in the academic world of sexuality, and the word "homosexual" was not even around until 1907. Somehow, I doubt that the idea really filtered down to Tolkien in his world of Finnish epics, Old Norse, Anglo-Saxon, and 13th century monastic rules for anchoresses. Certainly, before people started thinking of people as gay, there were homosexual actions, and there were preferences one way or another, but sexuality was thought of as something much more fluid and much less boxed away than it tends to be. Sexual activity of men with men or women and of women with women or men was not something thought of as uncommon, nor as something which sets someone off as "different" from the rest of the world, the world GLBT does today. So, basically, I can conceive there being in Middle-earth a man who sexually loves a man, but the idea of "gay" characters produces major cognitive dissonance.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Exactly. Middle Earth was a world that didn't revolve around sex. Sexual activity wasn't something people used to identify themselves or differentiate themselves from others, and love could indeed be platonic. Were Sam and Frodo gay? No, but I would venture to say that Sam loved Frodo every bit as much as he loved Rosie. Love !=sex

[Curufin]

And along the same vein, I would say that Maedhros loved Fingon, Finrod loved Andreth, etc. etc. Do I think there was any type of sexual relationship? No, certainly not. I think Gwaimir and DPR make very good points. Again, Middle-earth was not something out of a Mills and Boon novel - sexual relationships existed, yes, but they were not the defining characteristic of a character - nor should they be.

[Gordis]

And along the same vein, I would say that Maedhros loved Fingon, Finrod loved Andreth, etc. etc. Do I think there was any type of sexual relationship? No, certainly not. I think Gwaimir and DPR make very good points. Again, Middle-earth was not something out of a Mills and Boon novel - sexual relationships existed, yes, but they were not the defining characteristic of a character - nor should they be.

I think that sums it up nicely.:)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I would point out that the idea of homosexual persons did not even exist in the academic world of sexuality, and the word "homosexual" was not even around until 1907. Somehow, I doubt that the idea really filtered down to Tolkien in his world of Finnish epics, Old Norse, Anglo-Saxon, and 13th century monastic rules for anchoresses. Certainly, before people started thinking of people as gay, there were homosexual actions, and there were preferences one way or another, but sexuality was thought of as something much more fluid and much less boxed away than it tends to be. Sexual activity of men with men or women and of women with women or men was not something thought of as uncommon, nor as something which sets someone off as "different" from the rest of the world, the world GLBT does today. So, basically, I can conceive there being in Middle-earth a man who sexually loves a man, but the idea of "gay" characters produces major cognitive dissonance.

Gwai, this is kinda cute, but I'm not sure I agree. None of Tolkien's characters have real sexual identities, as we understand them, let alone sexual preferences. But Tolkien was certainly aware (personally) of homosexual behavior, as it was rather traditional in his 'academic' environments. Those people, although they remained closeted in political discourse (as they did about keeping a mistress, taking cocaine, and other recreational pursuits) were generally pretty clear to their friends and peers. I would say Oscar Wilde's trial was the begining of British "gay identity", although of course not called that, so Tolkien's choice of innocence in his characters is clearly a choice, and not an oversight.