On him alone is any charge laid

[ecthelion]

Probably someone discussed it before, please refer me to it if you've seen this question before.

As I was rereading LOTR for the n'th time, I came across Elronds speech: "On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."

Does Frodo break this promise when he offers Galadriel the ring? :confused:

[The Gaffer]

save members of the Company and the Council
There's your answer.

[Olmer]

That was a speech designated for an unaware public, and also a crafty way to put all burden solely on Frodo. Elrond perfectly knew that Frodo already bonded with a Ring and won't be able to break his promise to carry the ring till the end, unless the ring itself will decide to change the keeper.
"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care — and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him." (FOTR)
So, in this case Frodo was safe:the decision of the Ring's owner change will never be of his own, and he can offer the Ring to whoever he would wish to. :)

[Jon S.]

There's your answer.

That's wrong, you ignored ...

... save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."

[The Gaffer]

Well, Gandalf dead, the ring working its power on others in the Company.. seems pretty grave.

The other aspect to this is his "testing" of Galadriel. Depending on which version of her life you look at, her refusal of the Ring, offered freely, was what allowed her to end her exile, forsake ME and return to Valinor.

So maybe Frodo was acting as an agent of a higher mission in this particular instance.

[Butterbeer]

On him alone is any charge laid

Thank God the West Midlands serious crime squad were not involved in this investigation.


....................

Also - you ignored the rather important difference between 'handling it' and 'offering ownership' of it ...

"nah then missus, nice bit of jewlry this'n - feel the quality o' that - real gold, dat! - yours fer a steal!"

*frodo opens up coat revealing 101 watches*

...................

Olmer: That was a speech designated for an unaware public, and also a crafty way to put all burden solely on Frodo. Elrond perfectly knew that Frodo already bonded with a Ring and won't be able to break his promise to carry the ring till the end, unless the ring itself will decide to change the keeper.
"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care — and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him." (FOTR)
So, in this case Frodo was safe:the decision of the Ring's owner change will never be of his own, and he can offer the Ring to whoever he would wish to.


Then, if we agree this, since he does offer it, it would have to be assumed that it was the will of the ring, working through Frodo, that offered itself ...

The question is though, does Galadriel break faith by so seriously considering it - by allowing herself to come to the very crux of being on a knife edge of going one way or the other?

Elrond and Gandalf (and others) will not even entertain the idea of going near that battle of temptation in the first place.

yet the ring and Galadriel together?

[Landroval]

The question is though, does Galadriel break faith by so seriously considering it - by allowing herself to come to the very crux of being on a knife edge of going one way or the other?
I don't think she breaks faith by considering it. Tolkien disavowed that Zimmerman excluded Galadriel's temptation scene, stating that due to this (and others), "practically everything having moral import has vanished from the synopsis". She humbles herself by this choice ("I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel") and Tolkien states in the letters that LotR is a sanctification of the humble.
Furthermore, I don't think she let herself on the knife's edge; Tolkien also states that "Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve" - she wasn't toying around; the mirror scene was the final act in her fight against its influence. As such, "she was pardoned [for rebellion and refusal to return] because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself".

[Butterbeer]

Morning Landroval - hope you are good?

mmm ... an interesting angle then occurs - if, we take it as you say, if she is pre-determined and bears no risk from the the temptation of the ring ... so close ..in her very grasp ...

then is not her 'resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself' - not a sham?

and thus is not her pardon?

it seems to me we cannot have it both ways - either there is 'overwhelming temptation' and therefore a very real threat, or there isn't -

hence there would be a question: did she, at the time it presented itself, allow herself to get too close to the very point of temptation in the first place?

No doubt to my mind she did - nor, either, indeed that she did as you say, succeed in resitance - hence her pardon - else that pardon means little or is nonsensical -

and thus, looked at so, what Tolkien states about morality here can have value-

[Landroval]

I'm fine Bb, thanks for asking :)

I didn't argue that she was pre-determined (as in predestined) - only that she previously fought against temptation and won on the inside. Admittedly, it is something altogether different to reject the temptation when faced with the ring itself.

Did she allow herself to get too close? I don't think so. What would have been the alternative? What if she knew by (the elven/mirror's) foreknowledge that the offering of Frodo would occur? And even if not, was she supposed to avoid him all the way? Shut him up when he would start talking? Bar him entrance into Lothlorien altogether? What if, instead of her, Frodo would have given the ring anyway to another one (elf, or even Boromir!) - what would that have solved? At least, in this chain of events, Frodo would see what would happen to others when tempted; and perhaps this helped him a lot, when he later faced Boromir, who requested to relieve him of this burden.

[Jon S.]

"On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."
I hadn't focused before on the impact of this charge in the context of Frodo waking up to learn Sam had rescued the ring and was still wearing it but it does add to the undertones behind the intensity of Frodo's words to Sam about immediately returning it.

[ecthelion]

So Frodo's offering the ring to Galadriel was a higher power acting? Either the ring itself or the fateful test of Galadriel? Or even both wills coinciding?
Nice thought :rolleyes:

[Landroval]

Considering that in the Atrabeth it is stated that:
...the Drama depends on His design and His will for its beginning and continuance, in every detail and moment.
it might just be that the first part of your presupposition is true. I would also add that the ring knew only Sauron as its master and I believe it wouldn't seek Galadriel as a tool for return, since she would most likely keep it to herself (and maybe even come to master it and thus bring about the complete end of Sauron).

[ecthelion]

I'm not so sure about the ring, though.
It seems that the ring tries to get back to its master, but from what G&G co. (Gandalf and Galadriel) say, some other very strong will may successfully master the ring (and lesser wills just get betrayed by it).
So it may be the ring's power (and free will) too.
(Although of course Sauron and even Melkor ultimately played a part ordained by Eru)

[Butterbeer]

So it may be the ring's power (and free will) too.

Interesting, ecthelion -

this, to me, opens up the core of, most of the genuinely interesting debates on here - and those that most of the better read and free-thinking minds on here have been, one way or another, engaged in ...

i look forward to see where this freely develops ...

best, BB

[Landroval]

So it may be the ring's power (and free will) too.
I agree that the ring's power inadvertently led others to be drawn to it - it is stated so clearly in the books and letters; however, I see no new argument to make me rethink my initial position, that the ring would avoid, if possible, Galadariel as a temporary owner. Seeing that the ring was able to "flee" from Gollum, I believe this is all too possible; heck, I even wonder if the ring didn't nudge Galadriel into not accepting it (that is, if we admit the ring can induce other things than possessiveness and fantasies of dominance).

[durinsbane2244]

Probably someone discussed it before, please refer me to it if you've seen this question before.

As I was rereading LOTR for the n'th time, I came across Elronds speech: "On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."

Does Frodo break this promise when he offers Galadriel the ring? :confused:

for one thing, it wasn't a promise. it was a statement made by elrond. for another thing, it sounds like a typical, "hey guys, if this whole thing fails...it wasn't me..." :D

[brownjenkins]

I think Galadriel was trying to entice Frodo into giving her the ring, a situation where he was strongly overmatched and thus not completely responsible, but her conscience won over in the end and she refused.

[Olmer]

... heck, I even wonder if the ring didn't nudge Galadriel into not accepting it (that is, if we admit the ring can induce other things than possessiveness and fantasies of dominance).
You are furnishing the Ring with traits of an entity, while it's just a very cleverly made an accumulator and transmiter of magic and life force.
All this scary stories of a big bad ...Ring we are hearing from Gandalf, but there are several statements in the text that indicates that Gandalf has had no idea about the real power of the Ring , “It is far more powerful than I ever dared to think at first”.But there is also this, "...you must remember that nine years ago...I still knew little for certain." (FOTR).Still in all this 9 years he has acquired the only bits of information from Minas Tirith's library.Whatever he was talking about the Ring was a mere feed back from the Elves.
The Elves for certain knew about the real abilities of the Ring, because if to think logically, they were making the Rings of Power for themselves, and the forth ring supposed to lock the Rings of Power in the mighty Chain of Power. Sauron was not supposed to be included, he simply invited himself by making a few adjustments to the original design of the rings. The Ring, even with Saurons modifications, was not that powerful as Gandalf and Elrond has tried to accentuate.Sauron the Maya had never been successful in his campaigns even when he was carrying the One Ring on his finger. :cool:

Galadriel , the wielder of Nenya also, knew that the Ring without any harm could turn her into the mighty Lord(ess) of Middle-earth by channeling of the whatever left magic to her, to the Chain of Power, but on another hand it could channel the magic from her to Sauron. She was never certain of this, and, probably, this was her the only reason of refusing such impressive token of friendship. :rolleyes:

[Landroval]

You are furnishing the Ring with traits of an entity, while it's just a very cleverly made an accumulator and transmiter of magic and life force.
Seeing Gandalf's words:
A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. _It_ may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left _him_.
it seems that Gandalf is generalizing from what the rings of power are/behave - and, most importantly, he has one himself. He is not out of the loop, he doesn't receive information second-handedly. He would know himself what he is talking about, after having his ring for almost two millennia.
Galadriel , the wielder of Nenya also, knew that the Ring without any harm could turn her into the mighty Lord(ess) of Middle-earth
You're kidding, right?:). How could there be no harm in becoming the worst enemy of creation - even if we are talking purely on moral grounds? Do you really see Galadriel as such an amoral person? I believe that is very out of touch with the work, esspecially since in the letters Tolkien admits to christian connections in regards to this character.

[ecthelion]

I even wonder if the ring didn't nudge Galadriel into not accepting it
I don't think that was really the case, because we always see the the ring pulling people to it, and I don't think the ring really cared about who was its owner finally.
She humbles herself by this choice
It seems that the scene is about Galadriel, and her moral choice. I think it's an internal choice, not supposed to be influenced by an outside force, like the power of the ring.

But we don't see Frodo offering anybody else the ring, So maybe it was not really his choice to offer it.
But I don't think he would have offered it even to Galadriel after the episode with Boromir. If that scene would have come before, would we still have the scene with Galadriel? I wonder...

[Landroval]

I don't think that was really the case, because we always see the the ring pulling people to it, and I don't think the ring really cared about who was its owner finally.
There is one instance in which the ring caused his owner to "lose" it - Gollum. As far as the ring "caring" who its owner was, I think you are wrong (and going against your previous position)
The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Deal, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum.
But I don't think he would have offered it even to Galadriel after the episode with Boromir. If that scene would have come before, would we still have the scene with Galadriel? I wonder...
On a similar line of though I argued previously:
At least, in this chain of events, Frodo would see what would happen to others when tempted; and perhaps this helped him a lot, when he later faced Boromir, who requested to relieve him of this burden.
I guess we both agree that Frodo going through a situation in which the ring is about to depart from him is quite... educational for him.

[carlrodd]

seems to me that galadriel was deluded into thinking that she would become a great queen and ruler with the ring. this would be consistent with the how the ring affected many others. sam envisioned himself as samwise the great etc. galadriel was simply a noldor. certainly she was immensely powerful, but she would have had no more control over the ring than any other in the end. it makes sense that frodo would feel like he could entrust it to her, and i think at the time, he seems like he would have been willing to forsake his quest had she been willing to receive the ring. other evidence of galadriel's potential inability to keep the ring without becoming simply a pawn of sauron would be saruman's response to sauron. saruman was a maia, and presumably much closer in power to sauron than any other in middle earth at the time, yet he was enthralled by sauron in a sense, at a time when sauron didn't even have the ring. how much less powerful was galadriel?

[Landroval]

seems to me that galadriel was deluded into thinking that she would become a great queen and ruler with the ring
Tolkien does admit this as a posibility in relation to Galadriel:
It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.
However, the books and the letters toy around with the idea of someone else taking over the ring - although, the same letter cited above states that no one could be expected to withhold the ring from Sauron in his immediate vicinity - save maybe Gandalf. When Tolkien states that none of the mortal would be able to do this particular act ("not even Aragorn"), he implies that the mortals (and the immortals all the more) could be able to do this in less challenging situations - with Sauron far away.
how much less powerful was galadriel?
It should be noted that in Unfinished Tales, the reason given for Saruman falling such easily to Sauron is his already existing state of wickedness. On the other hand, Denethor was able to withstand the corrupting power of Sauron.

[carlrodd]

It should be noted that in Unfinished Tales, the reason given for Saruman falling such easily to Sauron is his already existing state of wickedness. On the other hand, Denethor was able to withstand the corrupting power of Sauron.

i had considered this point when i was writing. saruman seems almost to have entered middle earth with dubious intentions...if that is possible. and his attachment to the earth, manifested in physical machinations, and obsession with ring lore seems to have hastened, or exacerbated his corruption.

of course, i also considered that a very 'good' being, such as galadriel, might be quicker to trust in her power and 'goodness' too much, and possibly be more inclined to wield the ring in an effort to do 'good', which she alludes to anyway when talking to frodo.

[Landroval]

saruman seems almost to have entered middle earth with dubious intentions...if that is possible.
I think so. His seed was already planted when he became jealous of Varda's remark at their last council in Aman.
of course, i also considered that a very 'good' being, such as galadriel, might be quicker to trust in her power and 'goodness' too much
Would she? She participated in the kinslaying - although on the good side, if there ever was one. She also didn't return, even after the curse was cast on the noldor. She didn't even return when the curse was lifter after the war of wrath, even after the elves were "sternly counselled" by the valar to return. She (among the others) didn't have the moral courage to destroy the power ring(s); she used the ring in what was the "minor melkorism" of the elves, preserving Middle Earth into a king of paradise, which constitutes, according to Tolkien, a "veiled attack on the gods". I think she was quite aware of her shortcomings.

[carlrodd]

I think so. His seed was already planted when he became jealous of Varda's remark at their last council in Aman.

Would she? She participated in the kinslaying - although on the good side, if there ever was one. She also didn't return, even after the curse was cast on the noldor. She didn't even return when the curse was lifter after the war of wrath, even after the elves were "sternly counselled" by the valar to return. She (among the others) didn't have the moral courage to destroy the power ring(s); she used the ring in what was the "minor melkorism" of the elves, preserving Middle Earth into a king of paradise, which constitutes, according to Tolkien, a "veiled attack on the gods". I think she was quite aware of her shortcomings.

i have never really considered what i guess really are questionable aspects of galadriel's persona and history. i suppose since she was closely in league with the 'light' elements of third age, that i always took for granted her 'goodness'. then again, elrond did something very similar in imladris, and i would still consider him to be 'good' as well.

interesting point about saruman as well. it's a wonder, assuming that the valar who 'lobbied' for his being a representative sensed this, allowed him to go. and if they knew olorin was especially wise, and was favored, why not make him the chief of the istari?

[Butterbeer]

Welcome, carlrodd - you bring up many interesting points, both by the wayside or as the crow flies - either way ...

I look forward to debating with you.

best, BB

[Landroval]

interesting point about saruman as well. it's a wonder, assuming that the valar who 'lobbied' for his being a representative sensed this, allowed him to go.
Hm, Saruman isn't the only follower of Aule who went astray - consider Sauron; even Aule himself almost tripped over with the dwarves.

It doesn't look like the valar were keen on using veto powers against someone proposed by one of them - after all, there does seem to be a bit of a shortage of volunteers, seeing that Manwe almost begged Gandalf to go.

Then again, Tolkien points in the letters that even the valar are tainted, at least as much as to make errors. So even if they perceived his evil, it must have been at that time only buddying, so they must have considered it as coming with the territory of being in Arda - and therefore of an acceptable risk.

Edit:
and if they knew olorin was especially wise, and was favored, why not make him the chief of the istari?
I don't think the valar intended any to be chief - the leader of the council was "democratically" elected by its members, part of whom were elves. True enough, at least Cirdan and Galadriel realised who the greater of the istari was. I wonder who were the dumb elves that voted otherwise.

[carlrodd]

Hm, Saruman isn't the only follower of Aule who went astray - consider Sauron; even Aule himself almost tripped over with the dwarves.

It doesn't look like the valar were keen on using veto powers against someone proposed by one of them - after all, there does seem to be a bit of a shortage of volunteers, seeing that Manwe almost begged Gandalf to go.

Then again, Tolkien points in the letters that even the valar are tainted, at least as much as to make errors. So even if they perceived his evil, it must have been at that time only buddying, so they must have considered it as coming with the territory of being in Arda - and therefore of an acceptable risk.

Edit:

I don't think the valar intended any to be chief - the leader of the council was "democratically" elected by its members, part of whom were elves. True enough, at least Cirdan and Galadriel realised who the greater of the istari was. I wonder who were the dumb elves that voted otherwise.

i thought gandalf referred to saruman as the chief or head of his order(meaning the istari) when speaking to frodo. these matters of the nature of valar and maiar, and all manner of greater beings have gotten me thinking of some of the big reasons i am not so much a fan of PJ's movies. i don't mean to derail, but i posted over on a thread in the movies section pertaining to how tolkien would have viewed the films. i would love to get more into that discussion if anyone is willing.

to keep this somewhat on topic, sauron and his ring.........
the valar were not permitted to bring force against the children of iluvatar, hence them deferring to eru when ar-pharazon brought his fleet to valinor. they also allowed the missteps of the noldor to run their course, and did not intervene with morgoth until the noldor were thoroughly defeated. however, by the time sauron had established himself in as the 'lord' of middle earth, there would seem to have been no reason for them not to come and reign in one of their own. arda was their creation...why allow sauron to cause so much grief? and why send maiar that could not, and were not intended to contest his power? why not send tulkas and orome to smack him around and bring him back in chains? he certainly was no morgoth....they probably wouldn't have broken a sweat.

[Olmer]

Seeing Gandalf's words:

it seems that Gandalf is generalizing from what the rings of power are/behave - and, most importantly, he has one himself. He is not out of the loop, he doesn't receive information second-handedly. He would know himself what he is talking about, after having his ring for almost two millennia.. Then what the heck he was pulling Frodo's legs, telling him that he, the Maia and the wielder of Narya, DID NOT RECOGNIZE the Ring of Power? The crucial link in Ring's network chain!
If you implying that the Ring had a pull on Galadriel, then I even can't imagine of such enormous pull on the more powerful entity as Gandalf with his Ring. So, according to you words, he knew in what kind of way this artifact is affecting you, and when he felt the pull, he recognized the Ring instantly and jumped away from it as a nun from a "Playboy". :)
He knew right away that the Ring will bond with the keeper, and Elrond knew too.
This is why they made a theater of two actors: "On him alone is any charge laid."
Indeed... :cool:


You're kidding, right?:). How could there be no harm in becoming the worst enemy of creation - even if we are talking purely on moral grounds? Do you really see Galadriel as such an amoral person? I believe that is very out of touch with the work, esspecially since in the letters Tolkien admits to christian connections in regards to this character No, I am not.
She HAS BEEN the worst Enemy of Creation. She wanted to rule the world and in the same time to embalm it, to stop the time, to stop a progress. She wanted to go against the design of the Creator. In a way she was worst than Sauron, because he was promoting a technology and the building of cities.

Maybe, the whole his idea of making the Ring of Power was to put some restrains on the overzealous preservers of the Old World, and in this way to shield Middle-earth from another "Numenor". Seems, Ery did not mind his intervention, did not send Tulcas or the eagles of Manve on his head. ;)

But this is OFF TOP. In this thread we are talking about Frodo.

P.S.Tolkien introduced the christian connection much later, when Tolkien the Writer under a Divination sease to exist and Tolkien the Promoter of his Book has surfaced instead.. :cool:

[Landroval]

however, by the time sauron had established himself in as the 'lord' of middle earth, there would seem to have been no reason for them not to come and reign in one of their own. arda was their creation
Though Arda was their creation, the Children of Eru were not:
For Elves and Men are the Children of Iluvatar; and since they understood not fully that theme by which the Children entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. For which reason the Valar are to these kindreds rather their elders and their chieftains than their masters; and if ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, seldom has this turned to good, howsoever good the intent.
why allow sauron to cause so much grief?
Sauron, however, was a problem that Men had to deal with finally: the first of the many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in 'mythological' personalized (but non-human) form.
why not send tulkas and orome to smack him around and bring him back in chains? he certainly was no morgoth....they probably wouldn't have broken a sweat.
Indeed!!
Then what the heck he was pulling Frodo's legs, telling him that he, the Maia and the wielder of Narya, DID NOT RECOGNIZE the Ring of Power?
He told Frodo he began guessing it was the One Ring ever since a shadow fell on his heart after he heard the curious story of Bilbo.
If you implying that the Ring had a pull on Galadriel, then I even can't imagine of such enormous pull on the more powerful entity as Gandalf with his Ring.

The fact that Gandalf felt no powerful drive towards Bilbo's ring throughout all those years only adds to my presupposition (I myself am not yet completely convinced by it) that the ring will avoid those whom it can hardly leave (or worst, who could master it, even in the presence of Sauron, as Gandalf may). Gandalf refused the ring only when he knew what it was; he based his final acceptance on "scientific" grounds (testing the ring with fire) not his impressions of it.

Generally speaking, a hobbit was the most resilient ringbearer possible, and this Gandalf knew; he also knew Frodo and his allegiance to good. I don't think that at that time there was anyone else who could have taken the ring. Perhaps Gandalf felt, just like Tolkien, that Frodo had the necessary amount of inner power (not too much, not too little) to carry the ring, at least to Imladris. We should also take into account that Gandalf may have his bits of foreknowledge, and that may include Frodo, seeing how he talks of destiny.
She wanted to rule the world
No, she wanted to rule realms; she also didn't conquer lands - Lothlorien was not a land taken by force. She established herself quite peacefully in those warring times.
and in the same time to embalm it
The acting of embalming of her realm (again, not the world) came with the ring of power of Celebrimbor; previously, I doubt that embalming occurred in anything more than art. Feel free to counter that.
She wanted to go against the design of the Creator.
In the initial design of the creator, there was no decay and corruption as witnessed in Arda Marred; if anything, she was trying to preserve the original design of the creator.
In a way she was worst than Sauron, because he was promoting a technology and the building of cities.
Of Sauron it is said that he walked the same ruinous path into the void as Melkor; this can only result into the same complete destruction of all creation that Melkor envisioned.
Maybe, the whole his idea of making the Ring of Power was to put some restrains on the overzealous preservers of the Old World, and in this way to shield Middle-earth from another "Numenor".
So, again, how were the elves preserving Middle Earth before the rings of power? And how could that preserving cause another Akallabeth?
Tolkien introduced the christian connection much later, when Tolkien the Writer under a Divination sease to exist and Tolkien the Promoter of his Book has surfaced instead..
I have seen this often. Please give a direct answer to a direct question: do you think Tolkien lied when he said "I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary"?

[Jon S.]

No one's perfect (I mean this quite seriously in the context of this thread).