Alternative Numenor...

[alhaQQ]

Anybody up for "alt" history? (I have a weakness for it--having matriculated with a degree in [Ancient] History. :D )

I'm not sure if this belongs in this forum or the Sil forum...well, here it goes...I haven't seen anyone propose any kind of question or thread on this topic (I did do the customary search--and did not find any.)

What if Numenor (somehow) survived and did not fall? How would it happen? Civil War? When? How? Most "alt" history seems to point to Pharazon usurping the throne--what about earlier? Maybe in Adunakhor's time? (the Elendili may have been stronger and been better able to resist). How about Tar-Ciryatan--it was said (UT) that he forced Minastir to give up the Sceptre "earlier" than he wanted. What if Minastir flatly refused? Does Ciryatan rebel? (or does he wait the 4 years until dad croaks anyway?)

Of course, there are always more complications--Tar-Telperien's reign and death have some issues :confused:--most of what I've read actually have her dying in 1731 SA and NOT surrenduring the Sceptre beforehand. Then who sent aid to Gil-Galad around 1700? Maybe she had a "stroke" before 1695 (she was pretty stubborn), after one of her "infamous" rages :mad: (Dammit! They keep putting the spoons in the wrong order!!! Stuuuupid! Butlerrrrrs!! Aieee!!! :eek: ) Oh well, something to guess at. That could make Minastir regent and be in the position to help out the "poor" elves. I don't see her giving up the Mace before she dropped dead--or nearly--maybe it was her, not Atanamir who was the first to rule "until death".

Going back to Minastir--he seems like a genuinely good king--and surrendured the Sceptre and exited a few years later like a good King of Numenor. Interestingly, I found one web source that says Minastir may have had the same desire to live and rule on; see here: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/articles/t/Tar-Minastir.htm
Ok, the question becomes, does Minastir want to follow this path? Elros's rule till death is not disputed, Telperien may become the "model" for Minastir...is Minastir trying follow suit? Maybe Cirytan is "reacting" to this--"listen, dad, you're breaking with 'tradition' here...", Minastir blinks, "but son, Tar-Minyatur ruled till he passed on--and your Sainted Great Aunt, who made me King, by the way." "Dad, he grew weary, passed the Stick [Numenoreans were a bit 'cultured'...ed.], and then died! Don't you remember our own history??? We all know Aunt Telperien went as mad as Turin before she 'lost herself' with the servants!" Minastir blinks again...and calls his servant "boy, uh, more of that fine Andunie White, I think..." Enough said. :D

So Ciryatan, has this decision to make..."Dad and those creepy elves! There is a fortune, just waiting to be picked up!!! Blast it--there's a golden opportunity here--dad's just going to have to see reason...". Somehow he cajoles the old man (...more wine...dad?) to give it up--and lets cirrohsis do the rest...and Ciryatan goes off to claim his fortune, or does he...? Some of the loyal servants--who are early "temperance" adopters...start grumbling; "What's junior doing to the old man? He can't even get up to the summit--without being carried in that fancy litter--to perform the rites to Eru! And when he does he keeps playing with his zipper...and can barely slur out the prayers as it is. Simply shameful." Maybe some of the other servants (who being more 'worldly'), "No, no, no! You have it all wrong! The old man is trying to be like Tar-Minyatur--and shaming himself in the process--all for the desire to be like those creepy elves!" Hence the lines are now drawn--the King's Men v. the Elendili. :eek: (Interestingly, Ciryatan did pass on the Sceptre well before his death...something to ponder.)

Any other ideas? :D

[Valandil]

Interesting thought.

There might even be two possibilities to explore: an early "change of heart" for Numenor, in which they basically continued in the "Faithful" mindset - as you say, from about the middle of the Second Age onward.

The other might be at the last: Resistance to Ar-Pharazon's power grab, which places Tar-Miriel on the throne after her father Tar-Palantir. Enough Numenoreans are scandalized by what Pharazon would like to do - and the Lords of Andunie (successfully) exert all the power they have to prevent it. Numenor still has not redeemed itself for all its earlier excesses, and the hearts of the people are still largely turned away from the commands of the Valar and friendship with the Eldar, but at least they don't send a fleet to Valinor. There's no major expeditionary force to Middle Earth and humble Sauron, but he doesn't come to the island either. Future Kings come from the Faithful (assuming Miriel marries someone who is Faithful - and they manage to raise the kids right) - and maybe, just maybe, the hearts of the people are slowly turned back. Meanwhile, there's that growing matter of Sauron back on the mainland... with Gil-galad the sole powerful figure to resist him. Where would things go from there?

[alhaQQ]

I don't call him Ar-Pharazon--he's a usurper in my mind :mad:. That he was friends with Amandil (especially considering his father and grandfather), is actually to his credit. Now we don't know is motives...did he "play" the Elendili (ala Sidious) and ultimately had others do his dirty work (eg. Gimilzor--harshing the "faithful"--just because...what a pig). On the other hand, maybe 'golden boy' was really trying to head off a civil war--by convincing or, more likely, taking matters into his own hand with Miriel. (I still have to lean with the Sidious approach...'ole goldie just seems a bit too slick to be genuinely concerned.)

I really don't know if the faithful would have been able to pull it out by this time; I think Pharazon deposed Amandil of lordship (nice friend :mad: ) and banished his family to Romenna--it may have been one of the earlier kings (all the books are boxed up and I have to rely on memory and the web :eek: ). If it was 'golden boy' who did this--then, maybe, there's a chance. Pharazon was at least a compentent general--he managed to win victories in ME, so that means he may have had the resources to quell any uprisings in Andunie (that must have happened...one doesn't simply remove a ruling house who has been in power for 15 or so Numenorean generations). That he did not meet serious (i.e. armed) resistance against his actions (that we know of), seems to me he had to be doing "back-room" deals with some "less dangerous" elements that might oppose him otherwise. Pharazon may have been "very affable" and got on with everyone on the surface--I think he had the "winning" personality (in his mind) and he was just able to sucker enough Numenoreans to go along with him. This personality (defect, imho) lead to Sauron ('da grate...) to "play" him like a 'violin'. :mad:

I read a very interesting bit of fan fiction that dealt with some of this--Pharazon coming home after a self-imposed banishment to ME while Tar-Palantir was doing what he could (in a nest of vipers...even with Gimilzager assuming room temperature at some point). He turns up in Armenlos and sneaks into Miriel's bedroom on the night before her accession (with the help of traitorous servants) and forcibly "ass rapes" her (excuse the expletive--I want the full effect to be felt :mad: ) and tells her that if she DOESN'T marry him--he will come back with 6 companions who will do the same thing to her until she submits and if she tells anyone--he will "slaughter her and all the faithful"--a real nice guy. :mad: In the story, she meekly complies--for the safety of others. Well, let's turn the tables a bit with 2 scenarios: #1--because Amandil and family (and retainers, etc.) are in town for the accession as would many Elendili would be and one would assume they'd be ready for something to happen--by the democra...sorry, the king's party ( :D )--they're not "stupid" (yet). Say Pharazon does the deed...and walks away thinking he's going to be king tomorrow...one of the Elendili handmaidens of Miriel (she's so giddy for tomorrow, that she can't sleep), discovers the deed--and somehow gets word to Amandil and Co. telling all the gory details...Amandil is too much in shock to believe his friend would do this, so Elendil takes matters into his own hands, straps on Narsil and Isildur and Anarion in tow, reaches Pharazon's 'crib' and slaughters (almost ritualistically like Odysseus) all thirty or so of the guards (mostly by himself--jay-sius the man was 7' 1" by some accounts :eek: ) before cleaving Pharazon in two. The story then gets out the next morning...everyone (including all but the most hardened king's men) is horrified...and Miriel (with a sore bum) takes the Sceptre and the allegence of the majority of the Numenorean nobles and people--mainly out of sympathy for that "sore bum" (well, the act that lead to the sore bum).

On to #2--let's say that one of the traitorous servants is discovered...and (after a bit of persuasion with the business end of a...choose favorite blunt instrument ) tells of Pharazon's plans to "interrupt" Miriel's quiet slumber. Amandil may have thought it "crazy talk"--his friend wouldn't do that (he's either a "sap" or a "appeaser")--but Elendil and Sons are mad as hell and are going "nail" this golden boy to the "tree of woe". Elendil (and co) rally the faithful forces, and "set-up" junior for an "ambush". Since Isildur has the blonde hair--he gets to dress up as Miriel (of course he's just thrilled...); the rest are convienently hiding (and trying not to laugh at Isildur's misfortune) in the bedroom so that Isildur isn't abused--sexually...( :eek: ; subtle snickers from those in hiding). Pharazon makes his move (in the dark, of course)...and then discovers that his sexual preferences are now being questioned by some very angry men, holding torches and swords (when Pharazon cheekly asks Isildur his orientation..."...Hey, I'm straight, sucker. I just like the feeling of silk...") Pharazon is "induced" to confess--and the first act of Tar-Miriel's reign is to condemn Pharazon to death--by impalement. (Ouch.)

Well, I have to say I like version #2 better than #1--the only one that ends up with a sore bum (after a fashion) is "golden boy". Both scenarios don't require huge armies--duking it out and leaving an awful mess. And version #1 isn't child-friendly (trying to avoid that "NC-17" rating thru artful cutting).

So, that's my "Pharazon un-manned" scenario of Numenor surviving. :D