Queer things you hear.... [Archive]

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frodosampippinmerry

01-09-2007, 10:47 AM

In Fellowship chapter 2 There is a line that says "there were rumors of beasts more terrible than this but they had no name"

To what is Tolkien referring?

Olmer

01-12-2007, 10:29 PM

In Fellowship chapter 2 There is a line that says "there were rumors of beasts more terrible than this but they had no name"

To what is Tolkien referring?
He, probably, meant the fell beasts or ents (they were not really friendly) :eek:

me9996

01-13-2007, 01:27 PM

Probably (Is that how you spell that?) he ment what was said.

Terrable beasts with no names sounds like terrable beasts with no names to me.

But then again, I had no problems understanding the plot and setting of the matrix.

Gwaimir Windgem

01-13-2007, 05:42 PM

Yeah, I mean, what do you want us to do, name them for you? :p ;)

Rían

01-15-2007, 02:38 AM

Fred, Bob, Shirley ...

hectorberlioz

01-17-2007, 01:52 PM

Gwai and Rian, for shame!

I'm actually very interested in these little tidbits in LotR, and I do wonder about them (remember the talking Fox in FotR?), but I'm almost tempted to say that they are dead-end creations that he just liked and left in there. And I like them there, so don't anyone start accusing me of thinking Tolkien's editing bad, that wasn't my point.

barrelrider110

01-18-2007, 01:47 PM

Fred, Bob, Shirley ...

LOL, how about Bert & Ernie?

Anyway, getting to the question... to put the true quote into context:
"There were rumours of strange things happening in the world outside; and as Gandalf had not at that time appeared or sent any message for several years, Frodo gathered all the news he could...Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor... Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons. And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name.

Whether the creatures did exist in fact or rumor is unclear. What is clear is that they had no name.

NelyafinweMaitimo

01-21-2007, 03:22 AM

(remember the talking Fox in FotR?)
That is my FAVOURITE part of that book.

Wild beasts often presented very scary elements in Tolkien's work. For instance, Fingon was stalked by starving beasts on his way to Thangorodrim in The Silmarillion. Ungoliant, a wild creature, pretty much got the best of Morgoth when she trapped him in her webs in the Lammoth. Her daughter Shelop was certainly scary enough, as were the spiders of Mirkwood. When Tolkien refrences dark, nameless creatures, I always think of three things: Gollum, Mirkwood's spiders, and that odd frog with the light.

Primarily, though, I recall the spiders, lurking in dark crevices, because Tolkien was so deathly afraid of them.

hectorberlioz

01-22-2007, 11:32 AM

You're right, he was scared of them pretty bad. I bet he made Young Christopher clean the cobwebs pretty regularly...:p

I think I read somewhere that became afraid of them when he was in the war...

Sam

01-23-2007, 04:22 PM

terrible creatures without names?

could they have been refering to the Nazgul???

Forkbeard

01-23-2007, 04:34 PM

terrible creatures without names?

could they have been refering to the Nazgul???

Not at that stage I don't think. Wolves certainly (who are kept out by Sheriffs and the river unless the river freezes over), half-orcs of Saruman, and generally fell beasties and refugees fleeing the "trouble in the south".

captain carrot

01-23-2007, 08:31 PM

why not?

'Something' stirs in Mordor - rumours abound - evil stirs, trouble in the south -

why cannot possibly, these rumours refer to the Nazgul?

And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name.

when 2 + 2 is agreed to equal 4, as an agreed premise of logic -

perhaps you can enlighten us how Sam's seemingly water-tight assumption, could be so skewed???

-i'd re-read the quote were i you, there! :) ;)

In no way is it shire-centric in it's validity or scope.

Best, BB

Forkbeard

01-24-2007, 01:04 AM

why not?

'Something' stirs in Mordor - rumours abound - evil stirs, trouble in the south -

why cannot possibly, these rumours refer to the Nazgul?

when 2 + 2 is agreed to equal 4, as an agreed premise of logic -

perhaps you can enlighten us how Sam's seemingly water-tight assumption, could be so skewed???

-i'd re-read the quote were i you, there! :) ;)

In no way is it shire-centric in it's validity or scope.

Best, BB

I'd invite you to follow your own advice. The paragraph in which the quote occurs refers specifically to Frodo attempting to gather news of events outside. He has not heard from Gandalf in sometime. Gandalf comes to Hobbiton and tells Frodo what his ring is and performs the final test....all that takes place later in the chapter.

Now let's go slowly here: Frodo in this section is gathering news, because he hasn't heard from Gandalf...i. e. this is before Gandalf's appearance in April 3018. The first appearance of the Nazgul is in battle at the taking of Osgiliath in June 3018, and the 9 didn't cross into the north until Sept. 18 3018, well after the murmured rumors.

So unless the 9 were abroad MUCH sooner than Tolkien explicitly says they were, it is unlikely that Frodo in the Shire is hearing rumors of them months or even years before they make an appearance again in public.

Further, if such rumors of the 9, nameless though they be, could reach Frodo they surely reached the Wise, and Aragorn and the other Rangers much less Gandalf and Elrond could hardly have been so lax in their preparations if they knew the 9 were abroad so much earlier than the book tells us (unless of course you buy into Olmert's theories).

Respectfully,

FB

Olmer

01-25-2007, 12:19 AM

Forkbeard

01-25-2007, 01:26 AM

This is a stone in my yard, Forkbeard. ;)

According to Olmer's theory :p and an unevasive Tolkien's suggestion the news about Nazgul have reached Shire's vicitity much more earlier. Supposedly, somewhere in 3017.
At the meeting with Strider in Bree Tolkien gives an impression that Aragorn is very well informed of the Riders nature and of the way they operate.
"They will return.And more are coming. There are others. I know their number."
They will come on you in the wild, in some dark place, where there is no help....They are terrible!"
"They come from Mordor"...
And then Tolkien hints that Aragorn has had a very unpleasant memory upon mentioning that Nazgul are so terrible, means that this really painful recollections could be fixed so firmly in a memory only by a personal experience.
"The hobbits looked at him, and saw with surprise that his face was drawn as if with pain, and his hands clenched the arms of his chair...For a while he sat with unseeing eyes as if walking in distant memory..."
We know that in 3017, while looking for Gollum, he ventured quite close to Mordor, maybe even has been in Mordor. The suggestion of such happening is quite obviously laid out in his words at the Council.
"If man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul vale, then perils he will have. I, too, despaired at last..."So, if Aragorn knew that Nazgul are on the move, he could definitely share this news with his merry-men, and, without doubt, with elves of Mirkwood and his best pal Gandalf. :)
So, Shire's rumors about "terrible beast" was not that groundless. :evil:

No stones were intended, but I'm glad you saw my invitation and accepted it. But all Aragorn's statements are about the 9 AFTER they have been known to have been abroad in mid 3018. Further, it is no great task to know who the 9 were and how they operated even without ever having seen them or encountering them since they've been around an age and one can simply ask Glorfindel, Elrond, Gandalf, and the W-K does figure rather prominently in both Gondor's history and Arnor's...i.e. rather an important figure for Aragorn's immediate family line. So OF COURSE he knows their number, that they are fell, and terrible etc.

As for his memories, as you point out he was walking in the immediate area of the Black Gate to Mordor, and if he encountered one of the 9 there, that hardly means that other people have elsewhere much less that those rumors reached the Shire from Aragorn's walking there looking for Gollum in 3017 until the beginning of the year in the shire in 3018. I do think its a stretch.

Gordis

01-25-2007, 04:51 PM

Forkbeard

01-25-2007, 05:48 PM

I think you are forgetting the fact that a nazgul visited Erebor TRICE sometime in 3017-3018. He came as an official ambassador of Mordor, making no mistery of his identity. I guess all Erebor knew about the visit, if not of the ambassador's proposals, and rumours about the strange messenger spread far and wide. Dwarves were passing through the Shire constantly, on their way to the Blue mountains and could have spread the news. And the story has grown in the telling, as it usually happens.
No, I hadn't forgotten, but we can easily discount it as the news that Frodo's hearing. We have no evidence that I knoe of that Men of Dale were coming West and that Frodo was chatting with them in the woods. So it wasn't they who were the source of the information. That leaves the dwarves traveling the Great Road. If they came from Erebor and knew of the visit of the Nazgul they would also know the content of the message: Where is the Shire and we're looking for a hobbit who was known to them "of a time." That is, Bilbo. So they come west, do not stop at Rivendell and tell Elrond that the 9 are abroad MONTHS before that became known, and don't tell Frodo, Bilbo's heir, that the Shire is being sought by Mordor, but instead "whisper" of things more terrible. I find that a stretch to believe: let's mention these fell things but not tell you that they're looking for your uncle and for your dwelling place.

Also 2 of the nazgul occupied Dol Guldur since 2951. I think the fact was known in Mirkwood, probably also in Laketown.

That it was known to the Wise, including Thranduil, is probably true, but we have no evidence that it was known as other than an evil place to the Beornings, the men of Laketown. So once could say that these things more terrible might refer to the Nazgul, only if we say that those saying those things had no idea what a Nazgul was or had ever seen one, only that there was a Nameless terror in the south of Mirkwood at Dol Guldur, which had been there ever since Sauron had begun to take shape as the Necromancer. I. E. so general and generalized as to be of little use.

One nazgul (Khamul's messenger) constantly circulated between Dol Guldur and Mordor - on horseback, as the nazgul got Fell Beasts later -at the end of 3018. It is likely that some people saw the messenger.

Perhaps, but immaterial, since at the end of 3018 Frodo is in Rivendell having already encountered the 9, not back in the Shire gathering news because Gandalf hasn't been around for a long time.

After all, Gandalf left Hobbitton and went South to Sarn ford to investigate because he HEARD some disquieting news in the Shire.
But not news of the 9. He says in Council of Elrond that he was disquiet and went to gather news (unlike earlier where he tells Frodo that he has heard news), and that there he heard of war and defeat in Gondor, and the Black Shadow...i. e. he didn't hear anything about the 9 until the end of June 3018, AFTER he left the Shire and went to Sarn Ford, not while he was still in it.

Perhaps Gandalf understood that the terrible creature discussed in the peaceful Shire might have been a nazgul?

Not according to Gandalf himself in Council of Elrond who reports that even hearing about the Black Shadow gave him a sense of disquiet and that he noted the refugees from the south had an air of some terror put upon them, but he didn't make the connection to the 9 or the W-K until he encountered Radagast.

Gordis

01-26-2007, 05:42 PM

Now, let me post the whole quote instead of one line already posted, especially as it was not accurately quoted, by the way:

There were rumours of strange things happening in the world outside; and as Gandalf had not at that time appeared or sent any message for several years, Frodo gathered all the news he could. Elves, who seldom walked in the Shire, could now be seen passing westward through the woods in the evening, passing and not returning; but they were leaving Middle-earth and were no longer concerned with its troubles. There were, however, dwarves on the road in unusual numbers. The ancient East-West Road ran through the Shire to its end at the Grey Havens, and dwarves had always used it on their way to their mines in the Blue Mountains. They were the hobbits’ chief source of news from distant parts - if they wanted any: as a rule dwarves said little and hobbits asked no more. But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor.
That name the hobbits only knew in legends of the dark past, like a shadow in the background of their memories; but it was ominous and disquieting. It seemed that the evil power in Mirkwood had been driven out by the White Council only to reappear in greater strength in the old strongholds of Mordor. The Dark Tower had been rebuilt, it was said. From there the power was spreading far and wide, and away far east and south there were wars and growing fear. Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons. And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name.
Note: CREATURES, not BEASTS. A nazgul could be called a "creature", but hardly a "beast".

The source of information is stated: mostly Dwarves, maybe some Elves. Dwarves were coming West by the Great Road from far away. To me it sounds like there might have been some from Erebor.
If they came from Erebor and knew of the visit of the Nazgul they would also know the content of the message: Where is the Shire and we're looking for a hobbit who was known to them "of a time." That is, Bilbo. So they come west, do not stop at Rivendell and tell Elrond that the 9 are abroad MONTHS before that became known, and don't tell Frodo, Bilbo's heir, that the Shire is being sought by Mordor, but instead "whisper" of things more terrible. I find that a stretch to believe: let's mention these fell things but not tell you that they're looking for your uncle and for your dwelling place.

Most of Erebor Dwarves likely knew about the strange messenger who came trice to Dain. He was rather unusual: came alone at night, asked the King to meet him outside, not delivered his message in the Great Hall as was the custom.. Also there must have been gatekeepers, guards etc who also spoke with the messenger and felt unduly frightened. So, there was plenty to gossip about in Erebor. But I highly doubt that Mordor's proposals were ever made public.
'Heavy have the hearts of our chieftains been since that night.
It seems only Dain and his chieftains and counsellors knew the contents of Mordor's proposals.
Note also, that the messenger came a year before the Counsil of Elrond - in October 3017, but Dain decided to warn Elrond and Bilbo a whole year later - so he was not much concerned about Bilbo, much less about his heir in the Shire. He was primarily concerned about the fate of Erebor.

We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old.
In other words, Dain doubted that Sauron would keep his part of the bargain, otherwise the Dwarves would have been sorely tempted to strike a deal and tell Sauron where the Shire was and that Bilbo dwelt in Rivendell.

That it was known to the Wise, including Thranduil, is probably true, but we have no evidence that it was known as other than an evil place to the Beornings, the men of Laketown.
To my knowledge, poor ol' Thranduil was never counted among the Wise, he was never part of the White Counsil.

The men of Dale probably didn't possess enough knowledge to identify the occupants of Dol Guldur as the Nazgul, at least not till 3017. But in 3017 King Brand in Dale also got messengers from Mordor:

We discover that messengers have come also to King Brand in Dale, and that he is afraid. We fear that he may yield.
We are not told whether the messenger to Dale was a nazgul, or not. Most likely, yes, because Dain "was afraid". Also, Sauron tried to restrict all the Ring-Hunt to himself and the nazgul. A mortal, if told of the One Ring's whereabouts in Dale, might have been tempted to go there and seize the Ring for himself. A Nazgul wouldn't do such a thing as Sauron held his Ring and so controlled him.

One nazgul (Khamul's messenger) constantly circulated between Dol Guldur and Mordor - on horseback, as the nazgul got Fell Beasts later -at the end of 3018. It is likely that some people saw the messenger. Perhaps, but immaterial, since at the end of 3018 Frodo is in Rivendell having already encountered the 9, not back in the Shire gathering news because Gandalf hasn't been around for a long time.
I meant that ever since 2951 there was a perfect opportunity to meet a Black Rider in Southern Mirkwood or on the road along the East Bank of Anduin. I am sure there were some people who met this nazgul and told tales about it.

i. e. he [Gandalf] didn't hear anything about the 9 until the end of June 3018, AFTER he left the Shire and went to Sarn Ford, not while he was still in it.

Well "anything" is too strong a statement. Most likely in the Shire he heard "rumours", not "news".
The news he heard at Sarn Ford was of the Mordor's assault on Osgiliath and of the Black Shadow there.. And later, Rhadagast told him that the Nazgul - (all Nine) were going to the Shire:

"Nazgûl," he whispered. "The Nine are abroad again. They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward. They have taken the guise of riders in black."
And what was Gandal'f reaction?
'I knew then what I had dreaded without knowing it.
It seems to me, Gandalf was prepared for this news by some obscure rumours he heard in the Shire

Not according to Gandalf himself in Council of Elrond who reports that even hearing about the Black Shadow gave him a sense of disquiet and that he noted the refugees from the south had an air of some terror put upon them, but he didn't make the connection to the 9 or the W-K until he encountered Radagast

Yes, it is so. Amazingly, neither Gandalf, nor Boromir, were able to understand what Black Shadow was there at Osgiliath. After all, they SHOULD have known in Gondor WHO lived in Minas Morgul since 2002, in fact they DID know, as Faramir's words later prove. So, how come they were unable to recognise the Morgul Lord? I think it is a plot-hole in the book.

captain carrot

01-27-2007, 08:44 AM

I'd invite you to follow your own advice... :p

... Now let's go slowly here: :eek:

Respectfully, :D

FB

... 'Now let's go slowly here:' :D - ah ever the charmer, FB! -

never -

Never in the history of the whole moot, has such an indefensible position ever been taken, so recklessly and with such daring audacity! :D

Let us not got slowly here! ;)

As a lamb to the slaughter will you be, if, as king kanute, you stand foursqaure against the incoming tide with only a stick to draw in the sand against the mighty sea ... :D

Were i you, i would re-read your opening position:

Apart from the incontrovertible evidence and the sheer strength of arguments that can be forwarded that the 'rumours' could easily be attributable to the nine

the whole point initially, was not did they refer directly to the nine:

terrrible creatures without names?
could they have been refering to the Nazgul???

BECAUSE they had not names in rumour - the question was, were in fact these unamed terrible creatures that had no name in rumour - actually referrring without knowledge in rumour to the Nazgul?

It matters not one whit, if any in the north or fleeing from the South, know exactly what they are - but that what they are might actually be the nazgul -

that was Sam's assertion / question.

As for the rest, both Olmer and Gor have added enough to, at the very least, make open the very real possibility that RUMOUR might very easily be referring to the Nazgul either directly or indirectly (i.e. the terrible things without name, were actually nazgul, but that RUMOUR did not yet know that or was able to confirm their name, hence they were terrible and nameless in rumour - but what in fact rumour alluded to was the nazgul)

There are about a billion other arguments, i just don't have time -

nor the patience to go slowly :D

;)

Best, BB :)

Forkbeard

01-28-2007, 04:04 AM

Now, let me post the whole quote instead of one line already posted, especially as it was not accurately quoted, by the way:
Yes, I'm aware of the inaccurate reference in the first post, I reread the context before replying myself. In any case, I don't think this helps you much.

Note: CREATURES, not BEASTS. A nazgul could be called a "creature", but hardly a "beast".

Yes, a very important point.
The source of information is stated: mostly Dwarves, maybe some Elves. Dwarves were coming West by the Great Road from far away. To me it sounds like there might have been some from Erebor.

Specifically it says " But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West." In what way can the dwarves of Erebor, known to Frodo who in Moria recalls Balin's visit to the Shire, who have been travellng back and forth on the Road since Thorin and Bilbo's day, who know Frodo as Bilbo's heir, be called "strange dwarves"? One could make a case that Erebor certainly counts as a "far country," but these dwarves are coming West to find refuge. Nothing has actually happened in Erebor yet which would cause refugees to come westward. It seems to me more likely that these dwarves are not of the House of Durin but of other houses in the East where Sauron has been active preparing his strokes against Gondor and Lothlorien who are coming West to seek refuge in areas untouched by Sauron's hand as of yet.

Most of Erebor Dwarves likely knew about the strange messenger who came trice to Dain. He was rather unusual: came alone at night, asked the King to meet him outside, not delivered his message in the Great Hall as was the custom.. Also there must have been gatekeepers, guards etc who also spoke with the messenger and felt unduly frightened. So, there was plenty to gossip about in Erebor. But I highly doubt that Mordor's proposals were ever made public.

Why? They certainly weren't secret demands, and announced openly. The meeting at the gate was a show of power: the Nazgul needn't go to Dain, he makes Dain come to him, and so there's nothing "secret" there either. MOre to the point though, if dwarves from Erebor are relocating to the Blue Mtns in the West, they can't just go traipsing alalalala down the road, Dain is their lord. They need to seek permission from him. Do you think that Dain, or Gloin for that matter, isn't going to say to someone going West, "Oh, while you're going take this note to Elrond and this one to Frodo and warn them about Mordor, they helped us, we owe them some help." I find it hard to believe that if members of their kingdom were heading West, they would not have taken the opportunity to send word, esp. to Bilbo and Frodo that Mordor wanted them.

It seems only Dain and his chieftains and counsellors knew the contents of Mordor's proposals.
It only seems so because you want it to seem so. There's nothing in the book that would indicate this, and making it bold on the page doesn't make it any more true than if it were plain text. If all you have is bolding to make a point, it isn't much of a point.

Note also, that the messenger came a year before the Counsil of Elrond - in October 3017, but Dain decided to warn Elrond and Bilbo a whole year later - so he was not much concerned about Bilbo, much less about his heir in the Shire. He was primarily concerned about the fate of Erebor.
But you're missing the point. The point was not whether Dain did or didn't send an embassy, but rather if dwarves of his kingdom WERE ALREADY HEADING WEST ANYWAY THAT HE CHOSE *NOT* TO WARN ELROND AND BILBO AND FRODO! If so, as you contend, it places Dain in a rather callow light, and all the dwarf kingdom of the Lonely Mountain since it would have cost them no effort at all to send a short message to Elrond and/or Bilbo and/or Frodo and/or Gandalf, 3 of whom had been more or less instrumental in their success at reestablishing said kingdom. It rather suggests to me that the "strange dwarves" Frodo is encountering are not from Erebor. Sending a separate and special embassy is a different matter altogether.

To my knowledge, poor ol' Thranduil was never counted among the Wise, he was never part of the White Counsil.
We don't know that for certain, since the members are never listed. It is probable though, in my view, and if we want to discuss this in detail we should break it off into another thread. But more to the immediate discussion, it doesn't matter if he were a member of the WC or not, since what we were discussing was how widely known it would be that Nazgul inhabited Dol Guldur. I originally thought that it likely that the WC and Thranduil probably knew, but now I've changed my mind. For one thing, Legolas only says that Dol Guldur is still an evil place and that they do not go that way, which suggests to me that they know it stinks, but not what the source of the stink is, if you'll pardon the analogy. So apparently Thranduil does not know. And does the WC? It meets for the last time in 2953, 2 years after the Nazgul take up residence, while Sauron still has the 9 held back not operating openly. The council doesn't discuss Dol Guldur, but rather the Rings. Earlier, Gandalf had to enter the place to discover for certain it was Sauron, one can only assume that one would have to reenter the place to determine the presence of the definite presence of the Nazgul. So I doubt that the WC and Thranduil knew in any specific way that the Nazgul were there.

I meant that ever since 2951 there was a perfect opportunity to meet a Black Rider in Southern Mirkwood or on the road along the East Bank of Anduin. I am sure there were some people who met this nazgul and told tales about it.

I actually doubt it rather highly. There weren't a lot of human settlements around Dol Guldur or Mordor and of course at this point in time according to all our sources Sauron still held the 9 in secret until he was forced to use them openly, and then he wanted it to appear that using them openly was merely an anti-Gondor strategy, not a race for the Ring. Further, Gandalf tells Frodo he has not heard of the 9 being active, but who knows they may be soon and then later that had he known the 9 were abroad and active, he would have left with Frodo in June. I. E. if tales had been told about a rider to Mordor like the Nazgul, such a tale would eventually have reached Gandalf, Galadriel or Thranduil before the events of 3018, and so knowing that the 9 were active in Dol Guldor and other places, Gandalf would have acted much quicker and not been quite as lulled by Saruman's words. The 9 indeed were something to make one such as Gandalf busy as a beaver. So Gandalf et al seem not to know that the 9 are active, that 2 are in Dol Guldur, and no stories are being told to reach others ears. So you may be as sure of it as you like, but it would appear that Tolkien the author was much less sure than you are.

Well "anything" is too strong a statement. Most likely in the Shire he heard "rumours", not "news".

I don't think so, there's no evidence whatsoever that his "disturbing news" was about the 9 specifically.

The news he heard at Sarn Ford was of the Mordor's assault on Osgiliath and of the Black Shadow there.. And later, Rhadagast told him that the Nazgul - (all Nine) were going to the Shire:

Not just that, but that they were abroad. That bit of news came first from Radagast, Gandalf didn' t know that they were abroad when he was in Hobbiton.

]QUOTE] And what was Gandal'f reaction?
'I knew then what I had dreaded without knowing it.
It seems to me, Gandalf was prepared for this news by some obscure rumours he heard in the Shire [/QUOTE]
I think you're reading into the story. Having a bad feeling and hearing news are not the same thing. Gandalf has been feeling that something dreadful has occurred, but he doesn't know what. Besides, if he was "prepared for it", why then does his heart sink so much, why is he so unprepared to hear it confirmed?

Yes, it is so. Amazingly, neither Gandalf, nor Boromir, were able to understand what Black Shadow was there at Osgiliath. After all, they SHOULD have known in Gondor WHO lived in Minas Morgul since 2002, in fact they DID know, as Faramir's words later prove. So, how come they were unable to recognise the Morgul Lord? I think it is a plot-hole in the book.

Overall, I agree. Especially Gandalf who should have put 2 and 2 together and made 4, or in this case made "Nazgul." For Faramir and Boromir, they can be excused somewhat. They are mere men after all, and although they may intellectually know who is in Minas Morgul, it doesn't necessarily mean that they'll know it when they see it, if you follow me. I. E. knowing it without experiencing it can sometimes be different things. Faramir, being a bit more intellectual and interested in lore probably figured it out. Boromir probably didn't give it much thought. But Gandalf should have.

FB

Forkbeard

01-28-2007, 04:21 AM

... 'Now let's go slowly here:' :D - ah ever the charmer, FB! -

never -

Never in the history of the whole moot, has such an indefensible position ever been taken, so recklessly and with such daring audacity! :D
Then you apparently haven't been around the moot for long. You should read more of our threads.

Let us not got slowly here! ;)
Your overweening haste has landed you in a spot of bother, I fear. Do read on.

s a lamb to the slaughter will you be, if, as king kanute, you stand foursqaure against the incoming tide with only a stick to draw in the sand against the mighty sea ... :D
Actually, I'm more like Alfred at the Battle of Edington.....

Were i you, i would re-read your opening position:{/QUOTE]
Please do reread my opening position. Its in message 11, a response to Sam who asks if the reference might be to the Nazgul. My response says "not at that stage, I don't think."

[quote]Apart from the incontrovertible evidence and the sheer strength of arguments that can be forwarded that the 'rumours' could easily be attributable to the nine
All dependent on "what ifs" and "I thinks" rather than on anything Tolkien actually wrote. You and Gordis can assume that the strange dwarves from far countries refer to Frodo's family history if you like, but I think that the dwarves of Erebor don't really count as strange dwarves since Frodo has seen plenty of them.

the whole point initially, was not did they refer directly to the nine:
I'm afraid you need to review the thread. The OP simply asks to what the phrase refers. It is not until message 10 that the Nazgul are introduced and Sam asked "could they have been refering to the Nazgul???" That seems to me to be fairly direct, though I acknowledge it may be read in a more general way. But to say that his "point" was not did they refer directly to the 9 is wishful reading.

BECAUSE they had not names in rumour - the question was, were in fact these unamed terrible creatures that had no name in rumour - actually referrring without knowledge in rumour to the Nazgul?

You've missed the point. The point was that if such tales of such creatures as the Nazgul are are rumors being talked about even in the environs of the Shire as early as 3017, then the Wise have surely heard about them and deduced who and what they were and so would have acted much sooner, thwarting Sauron's plans, as he well knew. So it isn't likely that Sauron was letting the 9 out on joy rides to spread terror etc. That he used one as a messenger to a specific locale does not general rumors spread about the West make.

As for the rest, both Olmer and Gor have added enough to, at the very least, make open the very real possibility that RUMOUR might very easily be referring to the Nazgul either directly or indirectly (i.e. the terrible things without name, were actually nazgul, but that RUMOUR did not yet know that or was able to confirm their name, hence they were terrible and nameless in rumour - but what in fact rumour alluded to was the nazgul)

Their arguments have already been dismantled.

There are about a billion other arguments, i just don't have time -

nor the patience to go slowly :D

;)

Best, BB :)
Or wisdom apparently.

Butterbeer

01-29-2007, 06:45 PM

Then you apparently haven't been around the moot for long. You should read more of our threads.

Well, i wasn't being entirely serious old chap :D - just reacting with a wink to the 'Let's go slowly' ;)

oh, i've read enough, thanks...

Alfie at Edington heh? I'll expect a half decent sally in the Spring then! :D

Their arguments have already been dismantled.
*gets popcorn out ... we'll see what they have to say on that score! :p * (though i must confess i hadn't noticed it myself)

Wisdom? :D
We'll see- when you sally forth out of your muddy position to cross your sword with BB's rapier.

best, BB :D

elven dragonrider

02-04-2007, 11:04 PM

I completely disagree with the thought that they may be Nazgul, and you have been talking about it for some time. :confused: Not trying to be rude, but what evidence do you have to back up your theory? I merely think that they were monsters, whether they were created by Sauron is questionable.

Olmer

02-05-2007, 12:34 PM

I merely think that they were monsters, whether they were created by Sauron is questionable.
Not trying to be rude, but what evidence do YOU have to back up your theory? :evil:

carlrodd

02-12-2007, 11:28 AM

i don't think anyone has mentioned the balrog yet. dwarves from strange, distant places could easily have meant moria, and aside from durin's bane, which is only a cryptic reference itself, the balrog was certainly nameless. when the fellowship encountered it, only gandalf knew what it was. i understand that there most likely would have been no dwarves at all from balin's expedition left in moria at the time, but certainly dwarves from other places would have known about durin's bane, and the expedition, and considered the possibility that it was stirred again.

elven dragonrider

02-20-2007, 05:10 AM

I am not saying that I have hard evidence to back up my theory. I merely think that LOTR does not happen to be an allegory, and that if I had written it, I probably would not have been referring to the Nazgul. Tolkien has so many creatures in Middle Earth, he must have some that are evil that are not the Nazgul, right?
(Not expecting you to agree, it's fine if you don't.) :)

Olmer

02-28-2007, 12:46 PM

Tolkien has so many creatures in Middle Earth, he must have some that are evil that are not the Nazgul, right?
:)
By the Third Age the creatures of Tolkien's Middle earth were so few, that you can count them by fingers.
Which one in your opinion will fit the description better?

Finrod Felagund

02-28-2007, 12:52 PM

You're right, he was scared of them pretty bad. I bet he made Young Christopher clean the cobwebs pretty regularly...:p

I think I read somewhere that became afraid of them when he was in the war...

He was actually bitten by a tarantula as a small child in South Africa

Gordis

02-28-2007, 01:49 PM

By the Third Age the creatures of Tolkien's Middle earth were so few, that you can count them by fingers.
Wich one in your opinion will fit the description better?

I agree, especially if we remember the original quote:
It seemed that the evil power in Mirkwood had been driven out by the White Council only to reappear in greater strength in the old strongholds of Mordor. The Dark Tower had been rebuilt, it was said. From there the power was spreading far and wide, and away far east and south there were wars and growing fear. Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons. And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name.

So the creatures in question are worse than orcs and trolls. They were spotted recently, it seems, after 2951 (when the Dark Tower was rebuilt) and they had no name.
So what nameless (to the dwarves) creatures worse than trolls recently appeared in the Wide World?

Dragons? - dragons were not unnamed esp. to Dwarves and the last big dragon - Smaug- was killed about 70 years ago.
The Barlog? It appeared in TA 1980 - a LO-ONG time ago and was seen again during the war of orcs and Dwarves. No news really. AND Dwarves called it something - Durin's Bane.
The Watcher in the Water - maybe. But then why is it referred to in plural?
Fell Beasts? Hardly. It seems few have seen them before the very end of 3018-begginnning of 3019. And were they really worse than trolls?

So even from this POV the nazgul who sat quietly in Minas Morgul for 1000 years and then since 2951 started to be seen again were definitely a possibility.

Butterbeer

02-28-2007, 06:02 PM

the snowdrops are coming up, the days are getting longer ... still hiding out Forkbeard? :D

Forkbeard

03-01-2007, 05:14 PM

I agree, especially if we remember the original quote:

So the creatures in question are worse than orcs and trolls. They were spotted recently, it seems, after 2951 (when the Dark Tower was rebuilt) and they had no name.

Between 2951 and Oct. 3016? We've covered this. You have no evidence for such a sighting, certainly not of such a sighting that would become news and cause dwarves from a far country to seek refuge in the Blue Mtns. To this point, if the dwarves indeed are of Erebor, how do they know the "messenger" is worse than orcs and trolls? Even at this juncture, they merely shudder when he utters his veiled threats, with the hiss of snakes. Hardly accounts for a report that things worse than orcs and trolls are about. The visit to Dain is the ONLY such sighting we can point to.

So what nameless (to the dwarves) creatures worse than trolls recently appeared in the Wide World?

Dragons? - dragons were not unnamed esp. to Dwarves and the last big dragon - Smaug- was killed about 70 years ago.
The Barlog? It appeared in TA 1980 - a LO-ONG time ago and was seen again during the war of orcs and Dwarves. No news really. AND Dwarves called it something - Durin's Bane.

But there are other balrogs (possibly), and from what little the dwarves said about it, they didn't know WHAT Durin's Bane was nor name it willingly. And if these dwarves are from other places than Erebor (Durin's House) and so not of Durin's race, they would hardly be naming it or any other creature Durin's Bane. It was not seen in the war of orcs and dwarves, but sensed by Dain. And even so Balin and company nonetheless went to Moria. Such news was the reawakening of the balrog that Celeborn and Galadriel DO NOT KNOW THAT THE BALROG IS ACTIVE again, in spite of it having been so nearly 30 years by the point of 3018 when the Fellowship comes to Lorien. So that might indeed be news if that balrog or another is so referred to.

The Watcher in the Water - maybe. But then why is it referred to in plural?
We're also told that the Watcher is but one being: there are many evil things that gnaw at the roots of the mountains and that Sauron doesn't know, they were there before him. The Watcher is but one that was forced out, either deliberately or accidentally.

Fell Beasts? Hardly. It seems few have seen them before the very end of 3018-begginnning of 3019. And were they really worse than trolls?
Interesting. You can not provide evidence of the Nazgul being seen between 2951 and 3017, yet you accept that, but then claim that no one has seen the Fell Beasts? Please....

So even from this POV the nazgul who sat quietly in Minas Morgul for 1000 years and then since 2951 started to be seen again were definitely a possibility.

Where? Who saw them between 2951 and autumn 3016 when one came to Dain? Where is this written? Citations if you please.

On the other hand, Gandalf tells us that Mirkwood was full of "dreadful tales" (tales of dread) of Gollum, who sneaks into windows and eats babies in their cribs. That's certainly worse than orcs and trolls and would be news dwarves would pick up on the road. There are certainly horrible spiders and other evils things in Mirkwood and other places, and I'd say those are worse than orcs and trolls (one can fight those, spiders and such are not just horrible, they prey on the psyche too); wolves of the sort the Fellowship are fell and in many ways worse than orcs....I'd rather be in an orcs hands and cruelly treated than in a wolf's maw any day.

Forkbeard

03-01-2007, 05:33 PM

the snowdrops are coming up, the days are getting longer ... still hiding out Forkbeard? :D
still nattering empty-headedly BB? T'would seem so. You have yet to answer the questions put to you, as do Gordis and Olmer.

Forkbeard

03-01-2007, 05:40 PM

By the Third Age the creatures of Tolkien's Middle earth were so few, that you can count them by fingers.
Which one in your opinion will fit the description better?

Really? HMMM. Let;s see. Shelob, Spiders of Mirkwood, fell beasts, Watcher in the Waters of Moria, other evils that gnaw at the roots of the mountains, Caradhras, stone-giants, evil ents and huorns, Gollum, balrog....that's two hands, and taking them in groups where possible rather than individually. I'm sure I've missed a few.

Gordis

03-03-2007, 01:01 PM

Their arguments have already been dismantled. I haven't seen any arguments "dismantled". Instead, at a loss for better arguments, you turned to discussing fonts I used in my posts. What will be next? Finding fault with my paragraphing?

Between 2951 and Oct. 3016? We've covered this. You have no evidence for such a sighting, certainly not of such a sighting that would become news and cause dwarves from a far country to seek refuge in the Blue Mtns. To this point, if the dwarves indeed are of Erebor, how do they know the "messenger" is worse than orcs and trolls? Even at this juncture, they merely shudder when he utters his veiled threats, with the hiss of snakes. Hardly accounts for a report that things worse than orcs and trolls are about. The visit to Dain is the ONLY such sighting we can point to.

There is one - in fact three - sightings of a nazgul at Erebor, well documented. Then, as I've pointed out, there was the nazgul messenger constantly circulating between Dol Guldur and Mordor. He could have had other appointments as well, this messenger. Also we have no evidence that the Seven at Minas Morgul were sitting put all the time - most likely not. Otherwise how could Aragorn have met a nazgul? He hardly knocked at the gates of Minas Morgul to have a chat. Most likely he met one during his travels in the East or South. Consider also that by 3019 there were alliances forged between Modror and Harad, Khand and Far Harad, as well as with some countries in the East. I think it were likely the nazgul who were sent as ambassadors to these countries to ensure their loyalty - much like a nazgul was sent to Dain and likely also to Brand of Dale. Some of them might have visited the Dwarven settlements in the East and South threatening the Dwarves "Join us, or else..."
It looks like East of Anduin the nazgul were no big rarity. One thing they didn't do -before 3018 - cross the Anduin. All this was covered before both by Olmer and myself.

But there are other balrogs (possibly),
I would gladly see evidence of THAT. Do you have it?
Everything said in LOTR leads us to think that Barlogs were generally believed long extinct.

Such news was the reawakening of the balrog that Celeborn and Galadriel DO NOT KNOW THAT THE BALROG IS ACTIVE again, in spite of it having been so nearly 30 years by the point of 3018 when the Fellowship comes to Lorien. So that might indeed be news if that balrog or another is so referred to.
I think the Wise didn't know that Durin's Bane was a barlog. Gandalf surely didn't know it before he saw the creature in Moria.
And how could it be that "Celeborn and Galadriel DO NOT KNOW THAT THE BALROG IS ACTIVE again", while some Dwarves from far away countries would know it????

We're also told that the Watcher is but one being: there are many evil things that gnaw at the roots of the mountains and that Sauron doesn't know, they were there before him. The Watcher is but one that was forced out, either deliberately or accidentally
Only one company of Dwarves has gone to explore Moria after the War of Dwarves and Orcs - Balin's. So you are suggesting that one of Balin's company escaped and instead of going to tell his tale to his kinsmen at Erebor, he flew West and turned out telling scary tales to the hobbits?

Interesting. You can not provide evidence of the Nazgul being seen between 2951 and 3017, yet you accept that, but then claim that no one has seen the Fell Beasts? Please....
Are you nor aware that the Fell Beasts were quite new means of transportation for the nazgul - since the end of 3018 only?
I have 2 quotes to back this up:
Gandalf: " I look into [Saruman's] mind and I see his doubt. He has no woodcraft. He believes that the horsemen slew and burned all upon the field of battle; but he does not know whether the Orcs were bringing any prisoners or not. And he does not know of the quarrel between his servants and the Orcs of Mordor; nor does he know of the Winged Messenger.'
'The Winged Messenger!' cried Legolas. 'I shot at him with the bow of Galadriel above Sarn Gebir, and I felled him from the sky. He filled us all with fear. What new terror is this?'
'One that you cannot slay with arrows,' said Gandalf. 'You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgûl, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. Soon their terror will overshadow the last armies of our friends, cutting off the sun. But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad. LOTR: The White Rider
Note :NEW shape, the one Saruman knew not about. And Saruman had a palantir and long had most of his attention concentrated on Barad Dur.

Also there is a more direct evidence from Tolkien Reader's Companion p.262-3
It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (S. likely aided by Angmar) bethought him of the winged mounts; and yet withheld them, until things became almost desperate and he was forced to launch his war in haste. Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring)
Where? Who saw them between 2951 and autumn 3016 when one came to Dain? Where is this written? Citations if you please. Ohh... we already covered this. Aragorn was one, no doubt. There must have been someone to report Khamul occupying Dol-Guldur and having another nazgul as his messenger.
How could this info find its way into Gondor or Rivendell chronicles (Tale of Years) if NO ONE AT ALL saw them?? There was not a single nazgul who wrote his "Memoires" after the War of the Ring, was there now?

On the other hand, Gandalf tells us that Mirkwood was full of "dreadful tales" (tales of dread) of Gollum, who sneaks into windows and eats babies in their cribs. That's certainly worse than orcs and trolls and would be news dwarves would pick up on the road. There are certainly horrible spiders and other evils things in Mirkwood and other places, and I'd say those are worse than orcs and trolls (one can fight those, spiders and such are not just horrible, they prey on the psyche too); wolves of the sort the Fellowship are fell and in many ways worse than orcs....I'd rather be in an orcs hands and cruelly treated than in a wolf's maw any day.
Well, what is worse is a matter of personal taste. I would prefer a wolf to orcs.
Gollum might have generated some dreadful tales - but would the far-away Dwarves passing by be so very impressed?
Horrible spiders - I don't think they were fresh news - I think they lived in Mirkwood ever since Sauron took shape in Dol Guldur. All the travelers through Mirkwood must have been wary of them for ages.

Gwaimir Windgem

03-03-2007, 06:10 PM

That is my FAVOURITE part of that book.

Wild beasts often presented very scary elements in Tolkien's work. For instance, Fingon was stalked by starving beasts on his way to Thangorodrim in The Silmarillion. Ungoliant, a wild creature, pretty much got the best of Morgoth when she trapped him in her webs in the Lammoth. Her daughter Shelop was certainly scary enough, as were the spiders of Mirkwood. When Tolkien refrences dark, nameless creatures, I always think of three things: Gollum, Mirkwood's spiders, and that odd frog with the light.

Primarily, though, I recall the spiders, lurking in dark crevices, because Tolkien was so deathly afraid of them.

He wrote in his letters that, despite the incident mentioned later in the topic, he in fact wasn't afraid of spiders, and often rescued them from the bath-water.

Forkbeard

03-07-2007, 01:48 AM

I haven't seen any arguments "dismantled".
Then you should read a little more closely.

Anyone who reads that single comment in a long post and a) dismisses the rest of the post to focus on a single comment and b) thinks that the comment was about fonts needs some significant assistance with basic reading comprehension. Let me help you out: the point I made is that your conclusion that only Dain and his counselors know the contents of the messenger's embassy. That is certainly a valid reading, but not the only valid reading, and certainly there is no evidence to support it either way. Shouting it at us doesn't make it a valid conclusion. As I said at the time: "There's nothing in the book that would indicate this,".

BTW, before we go further, there is a slight chronology problem as well. Gloin tells the Council of Elrond that "about a year ago..." the messenger came from Mordor. This would be Oct. 3017, a year before the council in Oct. 3018. But the problem there is that according to the Tale of Years and UT's The Hunt for the Ring Sauron didn't capture Gollum until sometime in the first half of 3017,(UT: Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017) and so didn't know of the Ring's existence for certain, that Biblo Baggins a hobbit and had been to the Lonely Mountain in the company of dwarves. All that information was learned from Gollum or after Gollum's capture. It was in June 3017 that the 9 were sent out in search of the Ring. If the messenger to Dain and Bard is a Nazgul as seems likely from the description, then a Nazgul on horseback needs time to travel from Mordor to the Lonely Mtn and back and then be available to go with the W-K in June. So say Gollum was captured in January, the Nazgul would take 3-4 weeks to travel north, 3-4 to get back. So at the earliest the messenger can have reached Dain say in mid-Feb and at the latest in mid-May. Gloin is reporting to the council on Oct. 25. In no way can it be "about a year ago". Either Gloin is exaggerating or wrong, or UT and the Tale of Years is wrong.

[Quote]There is one - in fact three - sightings of a nazgul at Erebor, well documented. Then, as I've pointed out, there was the nazgul messenger constantly circulating between Dol Guldur and Mordor. He could have had other appointments as well, this messenger.

Yes, but do recall that you are claiming that these visits to Dain are enough to cause dwarves to not only say that the messenger is worse than trolls and orcs (not supported by the text as I have pointed out; they shudder, but they certainly do not quail and run) and even more importantly for dwarves of the Lonely Mountain to seek [b]REFUGE[/b} in the West, as also pointed out previously. So yes, 3 visits to Dain in 3017. That is all we have evidence of, period.

As for the "messenger", there is no evidence in the text that he was "constantly circulating" and none that "he could have had other appointments as well". If you want to rewrite Tolkien, I can't stop you, but I'd prefer to discuss the actual text rather than your speculations about the activities of messengers we're not told about.

Also we have no evidence that the Seven at Minas Morgul were sitting put all the time - most likely not.

We have no evidence they weren't. There is indirect evidence however. Gandalf tells us in the Shadow of the Past that it has been many years since the 9 WALKED ABROAD...." and UT: The Hunt for the Ring tells us that Sauron was relunctant to use the 9 and disguised their coming forth so that the Wise would not perceive his real purposes. Taken together, these indirectly suggest that the 9 had lain quiet, preparing for the War to come and not gone galavanting over Middle Earth.

Otherwise how could Aragorn have met a nazgul? He hardly knocked at the gates of Minas Morgul to have a chat. Most likely he met one during his travels in the East or South.

Most likely in the environs of Mordor itself. A) When he was disguised as Thorongil and left Gondor his face was set towards Mordor (and the road of course crosses Anduin and goes toward Minas Morgul, we needn't speculate far that Aragorn did a bit of spying and had some close calls doing so). B) Aragorn hunted Gollum all the way to the Black Gate.

When we first meet Strider we're told that after he tells the hobbits of the horror of the 9 that he sat in the chair in some "distant memory". At the Council of Elrond Aragorn tells us that if one walks as he has to the Black Gate perils he will have. We need not look any further than Mordor's borders to discover where Aragorn encountered the 9 or some of them anyway.

Consider also that by 3019 there were alliances forged between Modror and Harad, Khand and Far Harad, as well as with some countries in the East. I think it were likely the nazgul who were sent as ambassadors to these countries to ensure their loyalty - much like a nazgul was sent to Dain and likely also to Brand of Dale.

But most of these had been traditional allies of Mordor in ages past, worshipping Sauron as a god, and Morgoth before him. Why would he need to send the Nazgul to them to "ensure" their loyalty? Besides, once again you're speculating with no evidence to support it. The Nazgul was sent to Dain and Brand not to ensure their loyalty but to seek information about the Ring. By this point Sauron knows that that is not in the East.

Some of them might have visited the Dwarven settlements in the East and South threatening the Dwarves "Join us, or else..."

Didn't seem to work, did it? Interestingly enough I suggested that this news of far off events that Frodo gathers was in fact from the East from these very non-Durin dwarves. I do not however agree that their response is from Nazgul coming to threaten them. Do remember that even Nazgul must be able to return from such missions and be availabe by June 3018 when they are sent out. Can't do that if they're busy visiting the East. And again, no evidence.

It looks like East of Anduin the nazgul were no big rarity.

So you take 3 visits in 3018 "as no big rarity." 3 times is still rare in my book, and the book Tolkien wrote actually says that before this they haven't been abroad in years. So Tolkien, you know, the guy who wrote the book, actually seems to think that the Nazgul haven't been making extended trips on the East side of the Anduin, beyond the noted 3.

One thing they didn't do -before 3018 - cross the Anduin. All this was covered before both by Olmer and myself.

Actually, Olmer doesn't cover this at all. No slight meant to Olmer, but read his posts: he doesn't cover this point. As for you, well congratulations, but I might point out that I covered it first, my second post to this thread which predated yours makes just this point.

I would gladly see evidence of THAT. Do you have it?
Everything said in LOTR leads us to think that Barlogs were generally believed long extinct.

Re: the balrogs, yes I have evidence. In The Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath we are told that in the great battle at Thangorodrim "The Balrogs were destroyed save [b]*SOME FEW*]/b] that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth...." We know of one; Durin's Bane. There are others. It is certainly possible that one or another has been awoken elsewhere in Middle Earth.

As for what is "generally believed" about balrogs being extinct, um, in case you hadn't noted there Gordis, there's a big one in the middle of Book II of the Lord of the Rings....apparently their belief was wrong? Just a thought....

I think the Wise didn't know that Durin's Bane was a barlog. Gandalf surely didn't know it before he saw the creature in Moria.

Here at least we agree.

And how could it be that "Celeborn and Galadriel DO NOT KNOW THAT THE BALROG IS ACTIVE again", while some Dwarves from far away countries would know it????

Perhaps a rereading is in order? Several places in Book II, especially when they report the events of Moria, the reader is told by the characters that elves and dwarves don't like each other much (hence the wonder at the friendship of Gimli and Legolas that grows in the rest of the book) and certainly don't tell each other things. Whereas the House of Durin, of which Dain II rules, has certainly called on the other dwarf houses and is in contact with them. When not hearing from Balin and fear of Durin's Bane being whispered, it is certainly possible to have communicated with other dwarves in the world this concern without the elves who generally dwell deep in the forest knowing what was going on in Moria.

Are you nor aware that the Fell Beasts were quite new means of transportation for the nazgul - since the end of 3018 only?

You've missed the point. The point was that you trot out an idea that has no evidence to support it while at the same time rejecting someone else's suggestion that at least has some thread to support it, however tenuous.

Ohh... we already covered this. Aragorn was one, no doubt. There must have been someone to report Khamul occupying Dol-Guldur and having another nazgul as his messenger.

Yes, we've both mentioned it, and as careful reading shows Aragorn most likely encountered Nazgul when in the immediate environs of Mordor rather than around Laketown.

How could this info find its way into Gondor or Rivendell chronicles (Tale of Years) if NO ONE AT ALL saw them?? There was not a single nazgul who wrote his "Memoires" after the War of the Ring, was there now?

This is your argument? Surely you jest! TA 2480 tells us that SAURON began to people Moria with his creatures...how did that get in there, since the Wise at that point didn't even know whether it was Sauron at Dol Guldur???!!!!?? And there's a good deal about dwarves in those chronicles that neither Gonodor nor Rivendell knew....the annals also tell us about the Watchful Peace and that it was Sauron, and that Sauron went to the east.....hmm, how do they know that? If someone saw him, then they'd have known it was Sauron a millenium sooner than they did.....there's a good deal in the Tale of Years that is like this, authorial and not character driven. So no, I fear that your argument here is dust. As are your others.....It truly baffles me that when the books tell us that the Nazgul ain't been around until middle 3018 that there are readers who have to say "Yes they were! They were making treaties in the east!"

Gollum might have generated some dreadful tales - but would the far-away Dwarves passing by be so very impressed?
Who knows? You certainly don't, so don't pretend. If the dwarves are simply passing on news that not only has E;ves. Men and the beasts and birds of the forest frightened, and skeeved, it matters not whether they were impressed or not. It matters that they passed on the news.
Horrible spiders - I don't think they were fresh news - I think they lived in Mirkwood ever since Sauron took shape in Dol Guldur. All the travelers through Mirkwood must have been wary of them for ages.
Really? Huh, cause I know of some dwarves and a hobbit that were snared by them, and but for the hobbits ingenuity and pluck, a dozen dwarves would have been spider food. So much for that. There are many evils in Middle Earth, not all of them serve Sauron, and not all of them are explored in depth. We need not attribute every evil to Sauron and his minions.

Peter_20

03-23-2007, 11:16 AM

I think the author was referring to certain creatures that hadn't yet GOT a name, but were known and named later on. :p

Forkbeard

03-23-2007, 02:30 PM

Peter-20's comment prompted me to add to my comments here too. In thinking about this further I would note 2 passages that have not been brought up heretofore.

The first is at the Council of Elrond where Aragorn reports that the Rangers guard the Shire/Bree from creatures that would freeze Barliman's blood. This might refer to the Nazgul, but I doubt it since the Rangers have been guarding the Shire/Bree for some years, and not from the Nazgul--and I take Aragorn's words to refer to a longer period of guarding than just the recent Nazgul activity in the area. Further, he speaks of the Rangers' guarding as successfully guarding the area for the peace of mind of Barliman and others, and the Rangers clearly failed when it came to the Nazgul.

More importantly though is a seldom noted passage in Book VI, Homeward Bound. This is LONG after the Nazgul and Sauron have been removed as a threat in Middle Earth and certainly are nowhere in the area. Barliman reports to Gandalf and the hobbits: "For there's worse than robbers about. Wolves were howling round the fences last winter. And there dark shapes in the woods, dreadful things that it makes the blood run cold to think of." Are these things "worse than orcs"? Well, I don't know of any orc who is described as making the blood run cold. And it can't be the Nazgul, they're not around anymore.

It seems to me that if we read these two passages plus the vague threat of things worse than orcs and trolls that Frodo hears about from strange dwarves from far off countries, we see that are things in Middle Earth not associated with Nazgul or Sauron that are nonetheless evil and frightening. Thus, we need not assume, and have no evidence for, that the news Frodo hears is referring to the 9.