How many Maiar were there in Middle-Earth in the third age?

[Noble Elf Lord]

I have counted the 5 wizards+Shelob+Sauron+Balrog=8. Can´t remember any other, can you? If you can remember some more, tell me, please. :) :)

[Landroval]

Why would you qualify Shelob as a Maia? While Silmarillion and related works do hint that Ungoliant was a Maia, her offsprings were most likely not . We also have the case of Luthien, who, even though she is directly related to a Maia, she doesnt enjoy that status. Shelob is Ungoliant's last child - even if we stretch this to mean that she was a direct descendant, born last, this is not a reason to think of her as a Maia.

[jammi567]

There is also very stong speculation that Tom Bombadil is a maiar as well, so that's 9.

[The Telcontarion]

You forgot Iarwain Ben-adar, Tom bombadil, the eldest himself. And I would have to agree with Landroval, Shelob was most certainly not a maia.

[Landroval]

Tom himself is a can of worms; Tolkien wanted him to resemble an enigma, in his created universe, or to represent something particular about our world.
And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).
Do you think Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside, could be made into the hero of a story?

[The Telcontarion]

Interesting Landroval, that does sound right. The discription by Gandalf in the council of elrond of Tom Bombadil made him seem to me to be a very powerful maia spirit, though an enigma he would still be.

[Noble Elf Lord]

"An evil thing in spider form." Can anything lesser than a Maia change/choose their form? And "THING" possibly means something more than a creature of mere physical being. And yes I forgot Tom Bombadil, but is he a Maia or something more? He is said to be the eldest, but does this mean he was there before valar or just before the elves, dwarves and men? By the way, didn´t they say somewhere that Shelob is (at least almost) as mighty as Sauron? (It says under my username I´m a hobbit. Can this be changed?) :confused:

[captain carrot]

EDIT**

you become an elven warrior next (at 50 posts) i think ..after 500 you can cutomise your'e own title

er- actually it is an 'enting' next ..then an elven warrior, then an elf lord :o

( i never understood why ultimately you didn't become an Ent ...but ... :confused: there you go! :) )


.....................

isn't there a thread about Tom?

really must read it, if i can find it - I have always been interested in him.

The spirit of the vanishing countryside ... a jovial green man meets an earth spirit meets Eru.

I pretty much thought he was Eru himself in other worldly form ... obeying his own rules, limited in power in middle earth and there to experience the world he created. Not one to meddle or exercise power, but certainly not one that could have power exercised over him.

A form or representation of Eru, a part. One that will not meddle in the affairs of middle easrth and limits himself to a small estate in the sleepy borders of the Shire.

An enigma, certainly!

But he is THE MASTER. Even Mia are effected by the ring - not so Tom - for he is the master ...the eldest.

The Eldest.

Not Eru in all his form himself, but a worldly manifestation of Eru meets an earth spirit representing the values and love of nature and the countryside and a way of life, perhaps?

[Landroval]

Can anything lesser than a Maia change/choose their form?
How do you know she chose or changed her form? For all we know, this was her natural condition, being a descendant of another spider. Should she have had another form, you might have raised that theory, but in this case it works against your idea.
And "THING" possibly means something more than a creature of mere physical being.
"Thing" usually means something less - not more - than being, especially one with a supposed soul.
Not Eru in all his form himself, but a worldly manifestation of Eru meets an earth spirit representing the values and love of nature and the countryside and a way of life, perhaps?
It doesn't look like Tolkien enjoyed the idea of Tom being a manifestation of Eru:
([Peter Hastings] also cited the description of Bombadil by Goldberry: 'He is.' Hastings said that this seemed to imply that Bombadil was God. )
...
As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point.(Again the words used are by Goldberry and Tom not me as a commentator). You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me objected to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person, citing last Sunday's Epistle – inappositely since that says ex quo. Lots of other characters are called Master; and if 'in time' Tom was primeval he was Eldest in Time.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Thank you captain carrot. Now, I´m stressing the words "in spider form". This suggests that she may have had another if she would have liked to during her time in her egg or where ever such filths slumber when they develop.

[Landroval]

The original quote refers to "evil in spider-form"; to me, this means that Shelob was a character most corrupt, through which evil was manifest. I see not sign of whatsoever that she had at any time the ability to choose or change form.

[Noble Elf Lord]

The original quote refers to "evil in spider-form"; to me, this means that Shelob was a character most corrupt, through which evil was manifest. I see not sign of whatsoever that she had at any time the ability to choose or change form. I think that the original quote means that this evil MIGHT have had another form. Otherwise it would say "an evil spider". And if not so, it´d mean that some of Ungoliant´s evil would have lingered in Shelob, and this would mean that she was at least near to a maia. AND she was not the last child of Ungoliant, for the spideys in Mirkwood are Shelob´s children. :cool:

[Landroval]

I think that the original quote means that this evil MIGHT have had another form. Otherwise it would say "an evil spider".
I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. I for one have had enough of literary nitpicking.
And if not so, it´d mean that some of Ungoliant´s evil would have lingered in Shelob, and this would mean that she was at least near to a maia.
Maia status is not inheritable - Tolkien discarded the original idea that the valar and maiar have children of the same status as them.
AND she was not the last child of Ungoliant, for the spideys in Mirkwood are Shelob´s children.
But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.

[Alcuin]

In the early stages of the telling of the Tale, the Valar had offspring in Arda: Fionwë the son of Manwë and Varda is the predecessor of Eönwë, Herald of Manwë. This concept was dropped; but the idea that Maiar might have offspring with the Children of Eru and other creatures of Arda with hröa made it to publication. I can think of three examples, but none of the offspring were Maiar: Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Melian the Maia by Elu Thingol; Gwaihir the Windlord and his brother Landroval (ironically enough in this thread), descendants of Thorondor the Maia, sent by Manwë to keep watch over Beleriand; and Shelob and the Great Spiders of Ered Gorgoroth, descendants of Ungoliant.

Maia status is not inheritable - Tolkien discarded the original idea that the valar and maiar have children of the same status as them.I concur wholeheartedly.

[Noble Elf Lord]

I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. I for one have had enough of literary nitpicking.

But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.

Yep. Didn´t mean any offense, just defended my opinion. By the way, do you (all) think that the Watcher was a Maia? I think that it was either a Maia or one of Morgoth´s monsters.

Allright fine, but Shelob had children in Mirkwood and they surely weren´t Maia.

[jammi567]

The spiders in Mirkwood weren't Shelobs, they were Ungoliants.

What made you think they were Shelobs?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think that the original quote means that this evil MIGHT have had another form. Otherwise it would say "an evil spider". And if not so, it´d mean that some of Ungoliant´s evil would have lingered in Shelob, and this would mean that she was at least near to a maia. AND she was not the last child of Ungoliant, for the spideys in Mirkwood are Shelob´s children. :cool:

Any drawing of such a thought from the quote is the reader inferring, not the author implying. Speaking of evil in spider form does not indicate it could change shape at will; Hitler could easily be said to be evil in human form. All it means is evil incarnate as a spider or a man, respectively. Anyway, 'evil in spider form' is a much more beautiful phrase than 'an evil spider'.

Yes, such an evil might have had another form. The 'soul' of Ungoliant (would she have a fea?) might have been in the form of a wolf, or a crow, or some other animal. However, it was in the form of a spider.

And lastly, yes, something less than a Maia can change its shape. Finrod does it, and in some incarnations it seems that Beren and Luthien do, as well.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I pretty much thought he was Eru himself in other worldly form ... obeying his own rules, limited in power in middle earth and there to experience the world he created. Not one to meddle or exercise power, but certainly not one that could have power exercised over him.

That's an interesting thought; Andreth speaks to Finrod of an Old Hope that Eru will enter the world himself to undo its unmarring. Perhaps this a reference to TB? But on the other hand, it is spoken of as a future event, whereas Tom was here when the first rain-drop fell, as I recall. So it seems probably not. Very interesting idea, though.

[The Telcontarion]

That's an interesting thought; Andreth speaks to Finrod of an Old Hope that Eru will enter the world himself to undo its unmarring. Perhaps this a reference to TB? But on the other hand, it is spoken of as a future event, whereas Tom was here when the first rain-drop fell, as I recall. So it seems probably not. Very interesting idea, though.

Another point to consider is that in LOTR, at the council of Elrond, Gandalf said that if TB took the ring, only if Sauron were to come there himself could he retake the ring from Tb. If TB was ideed Eru, being there in person would not avail Melkor himself, let alone Sauron in taking back the ring.

[captain carrot]

wotcha El tel! :)

mmm - you miss my point methinks- a part of Eru that would experience the life he wrought, one that would not influence but could not be influenced.

and if i recall the council correctly, it was an opinion shrouded in doubt not certainty ... something about ..if that power was in the earth itself ...

but what does this indisputably tell us?

That gandalf and the Wise do not themselves Know of a certainty what or who exactly Tom is or was capable of. They wonder and respect ... but Facts?

Does this not tell it's own story?

As for JRR - as is evident he revised and hummed and arred. The letters are fine and good references, but they are no more than that.

- and Landroval - what i posit seems (to me at least) to read between so many of JRR's words and thoughts and ideas and letters and history's ... i do not claim it is indisputable - i merely put my thoughts forward - but please do all of us a favour and treat the letters as a valuable source , BUT NOT AS A BIBLE. :) :)

Very best, BB :)

[Landroval]

I am curious BB/cc, what has discomfort you?? They way I presented the quotes? Funny thing that a phrase would elicit such a reaction from you. Or was it the fact itself that I quoted from the letters? Subjectively, anyone is free to give whatever value to whatever works Tolkien wrote; objectively, I heard many accusing "non-canonical" works of being contradictory but at least concerning the letters, this is not true beyond some inconsistencies due to the author changing his mind about the story's course after he wrote a particular letter. These works provide an interesting, sometimes valuable, insight into the author's created universe; true enough, the more we steer towards Reader's Intent, the less valuable, or desirable, such informations prove.

[Anglorfin]

I'm too tired to go hunting for a quote right now, but I am about 81% sure that I read somewhere about the eagles of Middle Earth being incarnations of a higher power. I think it was even Gandalf that said as much; possibly to Perrin during the time they were together in RotK.

Anyway it seems likely that at least Thorondor would be Maia. There are certainly enough great deeds done by the eagles to support this theory. Thorondor swooped upon Morgoth and scarred his face. An the eagles were able to stand up to the Nazgul at the gates of Mordor. Plus the terror and dismay that the orc armies suffered when the eagles circled overhead seems to have been very similar in magnitude to what the Nazgul did to the forces of good.

[Landroval]

Although some may be put off by this post too, :rolleyes: , it would seem that Tolkien didn't have a consistent view on the matter of the Eagle King; on one hand he says:
Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim and keep watch on all that Melkor did and assist the Noldor in extreme cases.
on the other:
Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwe. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar.
It has been speculated that the reason for this rejection is that he wouldn't fancy the idea of maiar [as (good) angels] mating with animals.

[Alcuin]

Sorontor/Thorondor is certainly a Maia. That Gwaihir the Windlord and Landroval his brother, and probably the rest of the remarkable tribe that made were the Great Eagles of the Misty Mountains, were descended from Thorondor strikes me as reasonable in the Legendarium: the Eagles were sentient, and they had a civilization of their own. In that sense, the Eagles and the Ents are rather like C.S. Lewis’s sentient animals in Narnia, the most Lewis-like material in Tolkien’s writings. In that case, it is appropriate that Treebeard is a caricature of C.S. Lewis.

[Landroval]

From the same "Orcs" essay:
In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea.
...
The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fear.
Concerning the dating of this writing, Christopher states that it was written on a 1955 Merton College paper, folded in a 1959 newspaper - either date bringing its writing quite close to the publishing date of LotR, 1955.

[captain carrot]

I am curious BB/cc, what has discomfort you?? They way I presented the quotes? Funny thing that a phrase would elicit such a reaction from you. Or was it the fact itself that I quoted from the letters? Subjectively, anyone is free to give whatever value to whatever works Tolkien wrote; objectively, I heard many accusing "non-canonical" works of being contradictory but at least concerning the letters, this is not true beyond some inconsistencies due to the author changing his mind about the story's course after he wrote a particular letter. These works provide an interesting, sometimes valuable, insight into the author's created universe; true enough, the more we steer towards Reader's Intent, the less valuable, or desirable, such informations prove.


wotcha :)

hardly much of a reaction. I am interested in your opinions and ideas, and whilst the letters are very valuable, indeed :) my point was that they are not the be all and end all - even as most of his work and thoughts were often revised, so we should judge the letters in this respect.

I just thought there seemed rather a glut of posts from the letters and not so much personal opinion - that's all

best, BB

[Landroval]

I just thought there seemed rather a glut of posts from the letters and not so much personal opinion
A "glut"?? Oh well... where is your holiday spirit? You should entertain a more ... friendly view this time of the year ;). I am not aware that any of my posts, at least in this thread, has presented information beyond what is necessary or useful; of course, you are free to feel that way. As far as personal opinion are concerned, I am more happy to find out what was Tolkien's; the purpose of this particular thread would require as much of an objective answer as possible (not that speculations are unwelcome); given the name I chose, my personal bias lies, of course, with the eagles.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Please, people, stay in the subject. What was Watcher? And jammi, how come the Mirkwood spiders were Ungoliant´s children? Because if they were, they were smaller than Shelob and she was said to be the last child of Ungoliant. Surely they should have been at least nearly as big as her? Isn´t this somewhat a paradox? By the way, could any of you recommend me a good site from where I could download an Avatar for myself? :confused:

[jammi567]

"...the begetter of many evil offspring."
"Her offspring were evil like herself, though of less structure."
Ungoliant

"The last of the Great Spiders of Middle-earth."
"The ancestor of them all was Ungoliant"
Shelob the Great

The Complete Tolkien Companion

[Landroval]

From letter #144:
The giant spiders were themselves only the offspring of Ungoliante the primeval devourer of light, that in spider-form assisted the Dark Power, but ultimately quarrelled with him. There is thus no alliance between Shelob and Sauron, the Dark Power's deputy; only a common hatred.
That the other spiders were not of the same status as Shelob shouldn't surprise us; a greater strength may have passed to her from either her mother (such as we see in the case of Feanor receiving the greatest share of power from his mother Miriel) or even from Shelob's father, whoever that might be; also the other spiders may not be direct descendants, which would further diminish their status. Satisfied BB? :p

[captain carrot]

yes, the letter is very informative :p :D

i'll give you 6/10 ... " an improvment ... could do better " ... :p

;)

The watcher i personally doubt Noble elf lord - but gandalf hints that there are "many dark and foul things in the deeps of the world"

(from memory not an exact quote by any means) :)

[Landroval]

i'll give you 6/10 ... " an improvment ... could do better " ... :p
You see?? Christmas spirit!!
;)

The watcher i personally doubt Noble elf lord - but gandalf hints that there are "many dark and foul things in the deeps of the world"
Yes, and the funny thing about them is that Gandalf states:
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.
Now, the bolded part has elicited a good deal of discussions; how could they be older than Sauron, if he is a maia? The answer would be that they are older than Sauron becoming Sauron, i.e. turning to evil:
In the Silmarillion and Tales of the First Age Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service of the Enemy and becoming his chief captain and servant.
Sauron as a being of Valinor (even if only up to the moment of the beginning of Valinor) puts him for a huge amount of time on the good side - and Sauron [The Abhorred] was definitely not his initial name.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Or perhaps it means that they were in the world before Sauron was; either way, it would definitely leave open the possibility of them being Maiar.

[Noble Elf Lord]

"There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world." + Gandalf saying they are older than Sauron = I think we can thus say that the Watcher was a Maia. Repeat question: can anyone recommend me a site where I could find a proper Avatara picture for myself? :)