A couple unreleated questions...

[Tig]

Question one is this. The Uruk-hai are crossbreeds of Orcs and Goblins, what is the difference between Orcs and Goblins then? I saw none before...

Question two is this. After his death-thing, Gandalf became Gandalf the white. Does this mean that at some point Saruman had died too?

Question three is this. The Trolls in the Hobbit could speak but then, in the Lord of the Rings, the Trolls seemed unable to talk. How's that work?

[Valandil]

Question one is this. The Uruk-hai are crossbreeds of Orcs and Goblins, what is the difference between Orcs and Goblins then? I saw none before...

Question two is this. After his death-thing, Gandalf became Gandalf the white. Does this mean that at some point Saruman had died too?

Question three is this. The Trolls in the Hobbit could speak but then, in the Lord of the Rings, the Trolls seemed unable to talk. How's that work?

Hi Tig. :)

1. Most readers do consider Orcs and Goblins to be the same thing. There may be some different racial characteristics among various groups (just as there are among people). I don't think the Uruk-hai are called "crossbreeds of Orcs and Goblins" (if you've seen that statement in print - can you point it out?). But they were especially developed - just as some might try to develop a certain breed of dog or something - trying to enhance the characteristics that are desired and minimize those which are not. The "half-orcs" that Tolkien talks about appear to be a Human-Orc mix... scary thought, huh? :eek:

2. No - when you get into some of the background information - even in the LOTR Appendices, but also in "The Silmarillion" and "Unfinished Tales" - you get a better idea of just who and what the Istari really are. Saruman always was "the White" - ever since arriving in Middle Earth. It might be more accurate to say that Gandalf was given his "office" - or his "role" when he returned after his defeat of the Balrog, signifying Saruman's falling and failure (due to his unfaithfulness to his purpose - not his death).

3. Hmmm... smart Trolls vs dumb Trolls? Trolls who were mute, or whose tongues had been removed? Enraged Trolls in battle never speak? (they only talk around a campfire - and when nobody else is around - except maybe those they've already trapped and consider "dinner"). But... it's really more true to the writing process to know that "The Hobbit" began as a children's tale, and while some of Tolkien's big ideas got added to it, it remained that. LOTR began as a sequel to "The Hobbit" - but turned into a great epic. So Tolkien just decided to keep the Trolls quiet, I guess.

[Tig]

For number one, no, I haven't seen it in writing. But in the FotR movie Saruman said that Orcs were once Elves, and that "Orcs crossed with Goblin men" [Or something along those lines] were what the Uruks were. That's what confused me, because the likeness of Orcs and Goblins. That's all.

[Valandil]

Ah - well that statement in the movie wasn't really based on anything in the books. :)

[Tig]

I was beginning to think such. Thanks for the helpful answers!

[Tig]

Just when were the wraiths born, not as men, but as the nine? Prior to the first war of the ring, it must have been, right?

[Landroval]

The nazgul became as such somewhere between 1697 S.A., the year of the death of Celebrimbor and of (probably) the recovery of the rings and 2251 S.A., the time when the ringwraiths are documented to appear.

[Tig]

Thanks for the specifics, but it doesn't help much. :D I'm not educated in Middle-Earth histories. Is that also the time of the war, or no? All I need is to know if the wraiths were present before the war of the ring, or during, and if not, how long after before the nine were The Nine.

[Valandil]

The wraiths were present for a bit over 1000 year before the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men (which you might mean as the first war of the ring - although Sauron had made war on the Elves before that War - and before the wraiths appeared). The War of the Last Alliance was about 3000 years before the events of "The Hobbit" and "Lord of the Rings" - so they were around for over 4000 years as wraiths.

It takes a little while to learn your history, and it comes a little at time ... just keep at it. :)

[Tig]

Thanks. I'm going to be doing a D&D-Gone-Middle-Earth game, and I'm working on the beasties now. I didn't want to do it in the third age, because people might feel the need to associate themselves with Aragorn or other important characters. So, I'm using (I guess :p ) the Second Age as the setting, hoping it will be unfamiliar enough to make them be independent from alot of cannon characters. I just needed to know who was there. I have modified orcs, and the wraiths, and trolls as well, care to give some other suggestions? I'm off to build some monsters then, thanks again for the help.

[The Gaffer]

Well, in terms of settings you could do a lot with the Old Forest and Moria, and you've got Gundabad as a ready made fortress of evil. In terms of flora and fauna, you've got eagles, dragons, spiders, ents, huorns, wolves and wargs, and maybe the mythical stone giants referenced in the Hobbit but nowhere else.

You could do worse than get hold of "A Tolkien Bestiary" by David Day, which is considered dodgy as hell as an accurate source, but has great illustrations and little synopses along with each type of beast.

You might even want to post a copy of the scenario in the RPG section to see what people here think.

[Tig]

Hmh. I think I like both ideas. I'll check into the book, but I'm fond of the post for critique idea in particular. Thanks! I have quite a bit more to accomplish before it gets set in motion, so suggestions can still be made until I start the campaign and the tread will be here for just that.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Look into Decipher's Lord of the Rings roleplaying game. It's not D&D, but I think it's a better system, and for Middle-earth accuracy, you really can't get much better in the RPG field.

[Tig]

F'real? I heard it wasn't that good, that's the whole reason I was converting things from D&D.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

MERP isn't very good; they take a lot of liberties. Decipher is much better.

[Tig]

Alright, thanks. I'll check into it for sure.

[Sian]

Isn't the reason the trolls in LOTR can't speak because they've been turned to stone? Or am I thinking of different trolls?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

You, I believe, are thinking that the trolls in the Hobbit were turned to stone. I think that in LOTR, it was actually stated that while serving Sauron's will, these particular trolls were immune to petrification, or something similar.

[Sian]

I hadn't read that.. will have to study more! :)

[Landroval]

You, I believe, are thinking that the trolls in the Hobbit were turned to stone. I think that in LOTR, it was actually stated that while serving Sauron's will, these particular trolls were immune to petrification, or something similar.
The source in question is a bit different from that:
But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known... a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.

[Sian]

Thanks for posting that info; all I found so far was in the Encyclopedia of Arda where it says that there are different races of troll, some smarter than others, some having scales, etc. I guess that would also support the idea that maybe some could talk and some couldn't.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.

How exactly is that different from what I said?

[Landroval]

The small difference I was referring to is that Olog-hai and trolls are not the same thing, as can be seen from the passage I have quoted partially.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

But it calls them 'a troll-race'...They aren't the same, to the extent that you can't say "all trolls are Olog-hai" (which I certainly wasn't saying), but they are a kind of troll.

[Aden]

Hey guys, could anybody tell me how exactly you pronounce Arroch. Thank you :)