fog on the barrow downs

[LegolasGimli]

what happened to the barrow wights after the third age?

[me9996]

I thought Tom Bombadill expleled (Or whatever the word might be) them...

[nokom]

I thought Tom Bombadill expleled (Or whatever the word might be) them...


One barrows worth. There were hundreds more.

[Forkbeard]

One barrows worth. There were hundreds more.
Mu guess would be that like other works done by the power of the Ring and its master and servants, the wights became simply barrows holding the dead. I. E. the wights disappeared since it was the power of the Witch King himself holding power from Sauron and the Ring that put them there.

[Alcuin]

Mu guess would be that like other works done by the power of the Ring and its master and servants, the wights became simply barrows holding the dead. I. E. the wights disappeared since it was the power of the Witch King himself holding power from Sauron and the Ring that put them there.The barrows existed before the wights arrived, and presumably the remained when the wights were dispelled. The wights were works of necromancy by the Witch-king, and so indirectly of Sauron, his master; but whether they were undone or dispelled when the One Ring was destroyed is an interesting idea that I have not before encountered or considered.

I think Forkbeard’s idea – that with the end of the One Ring that barrow-wights ceased to be – must be in strong contention for the fate of the barrow-wights at the end of the Third Age.

Can we turn this thread into a poll on the subject?

[Valandil]

Unfortunately, I believe polling capabilities are turned off here at Entmoot.

It is an interesting idea. I had always assumed that the wights might be among the evil that remained in Middle Earth after the (final) Fall of Sauron - but this is certainly another possibility.

[The Gaffer]

I think the answer is uncertain. The barrow-wights were spirits that entered into the barrows when the Witch-King was active in Angmar, but there is no direct reason to believe that they were in any way directed by him or would simply disappear when he died. Not all (evil) spirits of ME were under the sway of Sauron.

However, Sauron DID make strenuous efforts to bring all evil beings under his control, and we have a definite suggestion that the wights were at least instigated by the Witch-King, so perhaps it would be reasonable to infer that they would at least be diminished after Sauron's fall.

[Gordis]

There is a direct evidence that the Wights were sent to inhabit the Barrows by the Witch-King himself. It is in UT "the Hunt for the Ring". The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter. He had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gothad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself. 19
It is also clear that in 3018 they were still under the Witch-King's command.

But I agree with the Gaffer, there is no evidence that the Witch-King made the Barrow wights.

Most likely they were houseless Elven fear, simply "housed" in a way with the help of the Witch-King.
In this case, their existence was not directly connected with the Witch-King, or Sauron, or the Rings. Most likely they remained where they were after the Ring was destroyed.

Also consider that their presence in the Barrows had some positive effect, discouraging grave robbers from plundering the great riches accumulated in the old burial mounds of the Edain. Probably this was the reason why Tom let them be for so long. Were there no wights, he would have to guard the Barrows himself. And he was such a busy man! :D

[Alcuin]

Most likely they were houseless Elven fear, simply "housed" in a way with the help of the Witch-King.
In this case, their existence was not directly connected with the Witch-King, or Sauron, or the Rings. Most likely they remained where they were after the Ring was destroyed.I agree that the wights were likely the fëar of houseless Elves whose bodies had been destroyed and who rejected the summons of Mandos that they present themselves. I also agree that they were ‘“housed” in the bodies (hröar) of Men with the help of the Witch-King,’ but that is necromancy – magic involving the spirits and/or bodies of the dead: in this case, the fëa of an Elf and the hröa of a dead Man. If the fëa of the Elf could not animate its own hröa, how much less could it animate the hröa of a Man? The Witch-king provided the “boost” to do this, and that boost was pure evil.

In Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)”, “Of Death and the Severance of Fëa and Hröa”, it is said that the spirits of Elves who die are summoned to Mandos, but that they may refuse the summons; but that so refusing to face the Valar was a sign of taint, and subjected the Elven-spirit to a counter-summons by Morgoth (and later by Sauron). The Houseless Elves then wander the earth, looking for bodies, which they are willing to steal from the Living (even from Men) if they can.Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one’s own will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.From the first part of this citation, “Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone,” I think that we can ascertain that this material is intended to have been written either at the very end of the Third Age as the Elves saw matters (i.e., after the fall of Sauron but before the departure of Elrond from Middle-earth), or else something obtained from Pengoloð after the Third Age ended. Since the preceding section is “Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar…” and begins with the words, “Ælfwine’s Preamble,” I think we can safely these assign passages in the Legendarium to Pengoloð through the intermediary of Ælfwine after the end of the Third Age. In that case, the passage, “Some do [the Dark Lord’s] work still, though he himself is gone,” can only mean that there were houseless Elves still active in Middle-earth in the days of Ælfwine (i.e., Anglo-Saxon England): so it is possible that the wights could have remained intact and able to act after Sauron was vanquished.

Like Valandil (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=576095&postcount=6), I had always assumed that this was the situation: Men were required to ferret out and destroy these vile infestations if they hoped to use the Barrow-downs again in the Fourth Age. My only observation, which I had never considered before I read Forkbeard’s post (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=575931&postcount=4), is that if the Witch-king used his Ring of Power to accomplish this, that work would have been undone when the One Ring was destroyed; but if the Witch-king used some other sorcery that did not require his Ring of Power – supposing that either he simply did not use it, or that Sauron already held it himself, having taken it from the Ringwraith – then the evil goetia would continue even after the end of the One Ring, the Ringwraiths, and the ability of Sauron to effect change in Arda.

[The Gaffer]

Pengoloð
:confused:

I have never read HoME stuff unfortunately. Just as well: looks like Icelandic or something.

Interesting comments, and thanks for the UT reference, Gordis. Just checking though, in the particular section in UT this comes from, is it "third person" (i.e. the author writing what happened) or is it related by another character?

One other thing: Tom Bombadil specifically arranges the treasure from the barrow on the top of the mound, "free for man or beast to take" (or something). In this way the spell would be broken and no wight would be able to return. Clearly there is some sort of significance to this, though FIIK what it is... :D

[Gordis]

Interesting comments, and thanks for the UT reference, Gordis. Just checking though, in the particular section in UT this comes from, is it "third person" (i.e. the author writing what happened) or is it related by another character?

It is "third person" -the author's account, Gaffer. :)

[Alcuin]

Many parts of “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)” in Morgoth’s Ring, such as “Of Death and the Severance of Fëa and Hröa” and “Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar…” (a very long section title, often abbreviated so), are written in an odd fashion, not quite third person, not quite first. This occurs again in “Dangweth Pengoloð” (Sindarin for “thus spake Pengoloð”) in Peoples of Middle-earth, a mixed first and third person – not what your English composition teacher would pass, but it works convincingly well.

Pengoloð the Wise of Gondolin was the last of the Lambengolmor, the “Loremasters of Tongues [Language]” in Middle-earth. The greatest and founder of the Order was Fëanor himself; another was Rúmil of Tirion, who apparently did not pass into Middle-earth during the Rebellion of the Noldor. (Rúmil devised the Tengwar.) Pengoloð was born in Nevrast in the First Age, moved to Gondolin, escaped in the company of Tuor and Idril, and probably lived in Lindon for most of the Second Age. Late in the Second Age of Middle-earth, he left Lindon for Tol Eressëa as Sauron rose to dominance, even over the Kings’ Men faction of the Númenóreans (whose survivors were the forefathers of the Black Númenóreans).

From time to time, Tolkien hints that Mortal Men might, through Divine Grace or by accident, stumble upon the Straight Road and come to Tol Eressëa or even the shores of Eldamar (cf. Smith of Wootton Major), as recounted in the last lines of Silmarillion:…tales and rumors arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners … who, by some fate or grace or favor of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way … and so had come to … Avallónë, or verily to the … beaches … of Aman, and there … looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died.One of these mariners was Ælfwine (called Eriol in the earliest writings), a character that changed as the Tale wore on from a central character to a most peripheral one; but he never vanished altogether. Ælfwine was at first the father of Hengest and Horsa, the first of the Germanic invaders of Roman Britain. (The brothers Hengest and Horsa (Anglo-Saxon: “Stallion” and “Horse”) were almost certainly real men, leaders of the Jutes, hired sometime around AD 449 by Vortigern, leader most powerful faction of the Britons, to fight his enemies. Hengest and Horsa defeated Vortigern’s enemies, but Vortigern cheated them of their fee, and in retaliation, Hengest and Horsa seized a foothold on the southeast coast of Britain and founded what became the Kingdom of Kent. They brought their powerful allies, the Angles and the Saxons, to help them wage war against the Britons. On those points both the Anglo-Saxons and the Britons agreed: I am of the camp that we can rely upon them as historical facts with near certainty.) Later, Ælfwine was identified as an Englishman living during the reign of Ælfred of Wessex (King Alfred the Great, reigned AD 871–899).

Ælfwine was blown off-course and landed upon the island of Tol Eressëa (sometimes called by the name of its port, Avallónë, probably intended in its origin to be Arthurian Avalon), where he met and was befriended by Pengoloð. Pengoloð told him the histories compiled by Rúmil (Ainulindalë and the histories of Valinor before the Rebellion of the Noldor) and the Quenta Silmarillion, written by Pengoloð himself. Ælfwine translated these into Anglo-Saxon (hence the unusual but seemingly natural first person/third person shifts in the narratives of some of the texts, or more commonly third person told from first person accounts), and then returned to England with them.

When The Lord of the Rings was written, Ælfwine fell by the wayside, and Translations from the Elvish by Bilbo Baggins during his sojourn in Rivendell became the source of the stories found in The Silmarillion; but Ælfwine never vanished altogether, appearing as late as the 1950s in “Dangweth Pengoloð” and “Of Lembas”, which Christopher Tolkien found “enclosed in a newspaper of 5 January 1960, on which my father wrote: ‘Two items from the lore of Pengoloð’, and also ‘Danbeth [answer] to question. How/Why did the Elvish language change? Origin of Lembas.’” (Introduction to “Dangweth Pengoloð” in Peoples of Middle-earth)

[captain carrot]

exactly what i was going to say Alcuin! ;) :D

very interesting indeed - my thanks.

Great discussion in general too - i side on balance that they existed independently as wights long after the destruction of the one and party.

[Gordis]

I agree that the wights were likely the fëar of houseless Elves whose bodies had been destroyed and who rejected the summons of Mandos that they present themselves.
....
The Houseless Elves then wander the earth, looking for bodies, which they are willing to steal from the Living (even from Men) if they can.

My only observation, which I had never considered before I read Forkbeard’s post (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=575931&postcount=4), is that if the Witch-king used his Ring of Power to accomplish this, that work would have been undone when the One Ring was destroyed; but if the Witch-king used some other sorcery that did not require his Ring of Power – supposing that either he simply did not use it, or that Sauron already held it himself, having taken it from the Ringwraith – then the evil goetia would continue even after the end of the One Ring, the Ringwraiths, and the ability of Sauron to effect change in Arda.

Right, Alcuin, but did the Witch-King really need to provide this magic boost to house the Houseless into the bodies of the dead men of Cardolan? It is pretty clear that the Houseless are dangerous all by themselves - they can STEAL a body from a living Man or Elf. No high intervention from Sauron or a Nazgul is needed for that. The dead bodies of Men are much less capable to protect themselves, if at all, than living creatures.

So I am pretty sure that the Houseless were capable to take over the bodies in the Barrows without the Witch-King having to herd them there in person and chant spells all night.

I think all the Witch-King did was to order the Houseless spirits under his command (and he must have had a great Power in the Shadow World especially while he had his Ring) to go to Cardolan, find the Barrows, take over the dead bodies there and guard the Barrows until new orders.

That doesn't make the existence of the wights dependant on the Rings in any way.

[Alcuin]

So I am pretty sure that the Houseless were capable to take over the bodies in the Barrows without the Witch-King having to herd them there in person and chant spells all night.

I think all the Witch-King did was to order the Houseless spirits under his command (and he must have had a great Power in the Shadow World especially while he had his Ring) to go to Cardolan, find the Barrows, take over the dead bodies there and guard the Barrows until new orders.I have to disagree. Invoking the spirits of the dead to animate the bodies of the dead is the tradition of necromancy. I do not believe that the Houseless Elves could animate the bodies of the dead in any other fashion: otherwise, why would they not animate their own bodies, whether damaged or not, and continue on as they were? It’s not a logical argument to say that they can do this of their own power.

As for the warning that the Houseless Elves would try to possess the living, I think that is more in the sense of overriding the free will of the fëa inhabiting the body. These materials from Morgoth’s Ring are the work of Pengoloð transmitted through Ælfwine, so the warning is likely to be a warning to Men, not to Elves, who in most cases would be able to ward off an assaulting spirit: the warning is against necromantic practice, which is both dangerous and evil in and of itself.

To me, it seems that the Witch-king summoned the Houseless Elves, who were either unable to resist his summons or actually willing to participate in his nefarious plans, at least at first. He then put them into the bodies of dead Men and helped get them restarted – a kind of Frankenstein act. (Frankenstein is also a story warning people against the evils and dangers of necromancy.)