How many times had Gandalf been to Moria?

[Valandil]

I was thinking about this... how when the Fellowship is considering which way to take after turning back from the Dimrill Stair.

I had THOUGHT that both Gandalf and Aragorn say they had only been there once before. When we look closely at what they actually say though - it's clear that Aragorn has only been there once, but with Gandalf it's open ended.

Gandalf: "... Yet it will not be the first time that I have been to Moria. I sought there long ago for Thrain son of Thror after he was lost. I passed through, and I came out again alive."

Aragorn: "I too once passed the Dimrill Gate, but though I came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time."

The reason I wonder is this: Gandald and the other Istari came to Middle Earth around 1000 of the Third Age. Moria was still occupied by Dwarves then - Durin's folk dwelt there until 1981.

Did Gandalf never enter Moria for the entire first millenium he was in Middle Earth? And if not, why not? Did the Dwarves not care for visitors? Did he not particularly notice them as long as they were holed up there and not wandering about? Did he just prefer Elves (and a little bit Men, and later Hobbits?)?

Or - perhaps he just saw no need to mention earlier visits there in more pleasant times - since his words sort of "danced around it" and just spoke of the last time he had been there? Perhaps he was speaking only of post-1981 visits?

Thoughts?

[Curubethion]

Ve-ry interesting observation there. I wonder...

I've got it! He was really involved in a top-secret mithril-smuggling ring, and didn't want to tip anyone off that he had been involved. But he's an Istar, so he probably doesn't lie very regularly...so he tricked everyone into thinking he'd never been there before, when in reality he HAD! :p

[trolls' bane]

Ve-ry interesting observation there. I wonder...

I've got it! He was really involved in a top-secret mithril-smuggling ring, and didn't want to tip anyone off that he had been involved. But he's an Istar, so he probably doesn't lie very regularly...so he tricked everyone into thinking he'd never been there before, when in reality he HAD! :p
Good enough for me.
He'd no longer be a "made man." :rolleyes:

[me9996]

I beleave he said something about visiting in happier times... I could be wrong...

It is perfectly plauseable that Gandalf did visit Moria in all that time, also it is perfectly plauseable that he didn't.

I lived near appleton for a few years and didn't visit anything to do with Harry Hudenni (HELP MY SPELLING!) and Gandalf was a wizard! He lives alot longer and tends to be busier than men... And women...

But I'd think he did visit moria a few times, why not?

P.S.
I never thought I'd ask a mod this, but is this the right forum for this?

[trolls' bane]

LOL! :p

Well, he sure knew an awful lot about it for only being there once (or even twice)! ;)

[Earniel]

Gandalf may have visited Khazad-dum a few times. But I reckon when Khazad-dum was taken over by the Balrog and named Moria he only went there once, like he said, to look for Thrain.

No doubt, during the better days, there would be parts of the mines 'closed to the public' so to speak, where only Dwarves were allowed. And when the Dwarves were still around the mines probably changed significantly in between his visits. The road he knew through the mines at first may have been changed by the next time he visited.

So that one time Gandalf went through Moria after the Dwarves fled may have been the only experience he had to rely on safely to guide the Fellowship through the mines.

[Valandil]

:
:
P.S.
I never thought I'd ask a mod this, but is this the right forum for this?

It could have gone either way. The quotes are from the LOTR Books of course, but the history of Gandalf and Moria, from long before the story is set - could be more appropriate for the Middle Earth forum. :)

(EDIT: and I'd be just as happy if we move it to LOTR books - SGH - whatever you think :) )

[Valandil]

Gandalf may have visited Khazad-dum a few times. But I reckon when Khazad-dum was taken over by the Balrog and named Moria he only went there once, like he said, to look for Thrain.

No doubt, during the better days, there would be parts of the mines 'closed to the public' so to speak, where only Dwarves were allowed. And when the Dwarves were still around the mines probably changed significantly in between his visits. The road he knew through the mines at first may have been changed by the next time he visited.

So that one time Gandalf went through Moria after the Dwarves fled may have been the only experience he had to rely on safely to guide the Fellowship through the mines.

Well - even if Gandalf DID visit, there was no need for him to get the grand tour and see EVerything. ("Oh... ANOTHER tunnel... gee, uh, no thanks") I guess I was thinking too about his unfamiliarity with the west entrance - but the Dwarf settlement was really all around the east end, I believe - and the west entrance was made primarily for commerce with Eregion in the Second Age.

[Alcuin]

I’m with troll’s bane on this one: Gandalf was quite familiar with Moria, far more than might be accounted by a single visit to a ruined city. He knew in what halls he must be, and unless there were lots of maps lying about in Rivendell that he could consult, his remarks in FotR, “Bridge of Khazad-dum”, indicate a fairly thorough knowledge of the city and its geometry:I now know where we are. This must be, as Gimli says, the Chamber of Mazarbul; and the hall must be the twenty-first of the North-end. Therefore we should leave by the eastern arch of the hall, and bear right and south, and go downwards. The Twenty-first Hall should be on the Seventh Level, that is six above the level of the Gates.He only became lost once, at the intersection of the three passages where Pippin threw the stone into the well.

I think he had been there before, probably with the same kind of frequency that he visited Gondor or the Shire in those days. (I think his visits to the Shire probably became more frequent after the fall of Arthedain as the Third Age wore on.)

[trolls' bane]

What I don't understand is why he was perplexed at the runes inscribed on the gate (I don't remember this from the book per se, so let me know if it's just a movie addition), or why he didn't know how to open the door. Had he indeed travelled through Moria, or just in Moria?

[Alcuin]

What I don't understand is why he was perplexed at the runes inscribed on the gate (I don't remember this from the book per se, so let me know if it's just a movie addition), or why he didn't know how to open the door. Had he indeed travelled through Moria, or just in Moria?FotR, “Journey in the Dark”:‘…what was the use of bringing us to this accursed spot?’ cried Boromir... ‘You told us that you had once passed through the Mines. How could that be, if you did not know how to enter?’

…said the wizard, … with a glint in his eyes under their bristling brows, ‘…have you no wits left? I did not enter this way. I came from the East…’

[trolls' bane]

Well, certainly the doors open in the same manner from the inside? That would make logical sense.
Oh, that's right, we're talking about dwarves.

[Alcuin]

Well, certainly the doors open in the same manner from the inside? That would make logical sense.
Oh, that's right, we're talking about dwarves.Op. cit., the very next paragraph, Gandalf continued:‘If you wish to know, I will tell you that these doors open outwards. From the inside you may thrust them open with your hands. From the outside nothing will move them save the spell of command. They cannot be forced inwards.’

[trolls' bane]

Cool. I want doors like that!
Well, excuse me, but I no longer have any copies of LOTR! :p

[The Gaffer]

Yes, I thought of the doors scene too when I first read this thread (which is a :cool: one by the way).

There was also mention, IIRC, that in those "happier times" the doors stood open most of the time with just a couple of guards on them.

This also got me thinking about Gandalf's comments re: "I once knew every command word in the tongues of elves, men and dwarves" or something similar.

There are also several other places in The Hobbit and LOTR where Gandalf refers to his previous knowledge, often hinting that it is not now as comprehensive as it once was. e.g. the "closing spell" he puts on the door when they are being chased by the balrog.

Two things then: clearly Gandalf DID travel around a lot (e.g. he has a different name amongst different peoples), about which it might be interesting to speculate; and it underlines that the free peoples' use of "magical" arts had been in decline for some centuries, falling into disuse and being lost.

[Valandil]

Or - that maybe even Gandalf was subject to forgetfulness... :eek:

At least he THOUGHT he might be, until he came up with the solution. :)