Writing using Tengwar characters - II

[Rían]

[moderator note - from Rian's opening post to the first thread, which is here (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=5568) ]

Ok, I did a search on this and found "speaking in Elvish" threads but not one specifically on writing using the Tengwar characters, so here goes...

I didn't have time/talent to learn elvish, so I decided to help satisfy my M.E. cravings by learning the Tengwar characters for the English mode and write in English using Tengwar. It is really fun, and also - I don't know, I guess almost physically enjoyable (to me, they just look so pretty! I think Tolkien wrote somewhere that he wanted to invent characters that were visually pleasing). They look nice written with a chisel-point pen, but a regular one works just fine, too.

It took a little bit of time to memorize them so I could write fluently, and I still can't read quickly (I have to go character by character except for words of 2 characters, which I can read right away), but it was well worth it, plus you can write ANYTHING you want down in a journal and not worry about someone finding it and reading it! (at least no one around me can read it!)

I know katya writes in Tengwar - anyone else?


***********Edit: It's almost 8 months later, and I"m still happily writing Tengwar! Some new Tengwar fans have recently joined, and just for the sake of convenience, I'm editing this post and adding the two best links on Tengwar that I've found: the passagen link (http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/tengwar.htm) and the elfique link (http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~smartin/elfique/english_eng.htm) .

***********Edit: I thought I would add some links to some of the attachments that people had, to show off our all our fun and unique and pretty Tengwar :)
Earniel's Elvish rock (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?p=369939#post369939)
RÃ*an's Nargothrond poem from Lays of Beleriand (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?p=136448#post136448)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

*bump*

So, any more Tengwar writers here? Anyone that wants to learn?

I need to re-learn, because I haven't done it in awhile!


Nov 2010 - edit to add links that changed - passagen is now at http://at.mansbjorkman.net/ and called Amanye Tenceli

[Arien the Maia]

I finished writing a paragraph in the Sil for one of my art projects....it was rather stressful b/c I couldn't decide on if I should translate letter for letter or by phonetics!

[Rían]

yeah, it's kinda personal taste, which I like, actually ...

[Arien the Maia]

yeah, it's kinda personal taste, which I like, actually ...
I ended up doing both :rolleyes: basically it came down to whatever looked better! But I did vary between the English/Quenya versions though I only used Quenya for the names of Feanaro and Nerdanel.

[trolls' bane]

I finished writing a paragraph in the Sil for one of my art projects....it was rather stressful b/c I couldn't decide on if I should translate letter for letter or by phonetics!
Who cares? Not like anyone else can read it. :p ;)

[Arien the Maia]

Who cares? Not like anyone else can read it. :p ;)

true...but it will bug me if it's not all the same ;)

[Rían]

yeah, that's like when I crochet an entire scarf and I always see the one teensy error in it!

[Arien the Maia]

yeah, that's like when I crochet an entire scarf and I always see the one teensy error in it!

doncha just hate that! :p

[Rían]

yeah! My husband says that that's just proof that it's handmade :)

[tolkienfan]

I heard that some people (the Amish I think) purposely put a mistake in their quilts and stuff because they believe that only God could make a perfect one and they don't want theirs to seem perfect. I still write Tengwar sometimes. It's really fun! That's a cool idea for an art project. How did it end up? What paragraph did you write?

[Arien the Maia]

I heard that some people (the Amish I think) purposely put a mistake in their quilts and stuff because they believe that only God could make a perfect one and they don't want theirs to seem perfect. I still write Tengwar sometimes. It's really fun! That's a cool idea for an art project. How did it end up? What paragraph did you write?

My picture ended up ok. I wrote a paragraph from the Silmarillion aroudn the edges of the canvas. It was a paragraph describing Nerdanel, because she was the subject of my picture.

[Rían]

I heard that some people (the Amish I think) purposely put a mistake in their quilts and stuff because they believe that only God could make a perfect one and they don't want theirs to seem perfect. I've heard that, too - quaint!

[trolls' bane]

Isn't it enough that making a "perfect" quilt would still include slight molecular or other microscopic or nanoscopic errors, some perhaps only visible in the extended microdimensions?

[Rían]

No, because I"m not responsible for that :D

[Rían]

(note - letter accent marks aat : http://desktoppub.about.com/library/weekly/naccents.htm)

[Rían]

I'm designing some Tengwar writing for my bow ... bows and tengwar just seem to go together!

[Arien the Maia]

I'm designing some Tengwar writing for my bow ... bows and tengwar just seem to go together!

you do archery? are you going to have it engraved on the bow?

[Hirulin]

Greetings my fellow Tolkien Nuts!

I am starting this thread as I know of no other way to find a like-minded individual with which to write to in the Tengwar script!

I have been writing with the tengwar for a good few years now, and so far, I have written only to myself (not in a wierd way! But journals, poems etc!)

I Love to write in this script and would love it even more if I could write to some-one else who could read it! (and possibly give me some pointers on errors etc, although I feel I've pretty much nailed it now!)

Basically, I'm looking for a "pen/key-pal"! I'm 25 and live in Yorkshire in the UK.

I have a scanner, so if you'd rather scan and e-mail the letters (which I'd fully understand) thats not a problem!

I look forward to writing to you!

By the way, I write in the Sindarin mode (i.e. Vowels above the letter they precede) but with English words (I can't speak sindarin, I only know a few words courtesy of Thorsten Renk's "Pedin Edhellen" [sindarin course] )

My e-mail is nikki.dione@yahoo.co.uk Please feel free to e-mail me any letters/notes in sindarin as you see fit, any e-mail will be replied to!

Thanks again and till next time

cuio vae!

[katya]

Ooh, Tengwar! I might just have to take you up on that. I used to write in the tengwar all the time but it's been a while and I'll have to refresh my memory on it. There's a thread around here on tengwar in I think the Middle Earth forum (which is there I imagine this thread will be moved to) with a lot of discussion and writings we've posted.

I've been meaning to re-learn how to write, I have a little bit of motivation now. I think it'll come back quickly enough.

[Hirulin]

Oooh, I didn't see that thread! Will go a hunting! Thanx katya! Hope some-one takes me up on it! lol!

I'm sure it'll all come back to you hun! what mode do/did you write in?

[katya]

I can't remember what it's called, but for example, "cat" would be spelled with a K first and then a T with the "a" over top of it. And phonetically, not like trying to spell things out. Like "school" would be "S-K-u/L" and not trying to figure out the "c" and "h" or writing two O's. We did a lot of playing around with S curves too, and also I think the special characters for "the" and "of".

[Hirulin]

Sounds like the Sindarin/English mode! Although, I do tend to use ALL the symbols (inc. sh, ch, th, dh etc!) once you start using them, it becomes surprisingly easy to work out which symbols are needed for which dipthong! and double "o", I just attatch a line before the first "o" to denote a doubling (J.R.R did mention about doubling with consonants, but not [to my knowledge] about vowels!) I've made a "cheat sheet" any-ways so if I am feeling a little slow (or like now, drunk!!!) I can easily check which is needed!

(sorry for being droll! Cherry's kicked in! lol!

[katya]

Drunken posting! Oh my! Yes I use the ch, sh, (even dh!) too.

[Hirulin]

hehe! *raises glass in a toast to tolkien*

If you feel like getting back into it hun, my e-mail is in my first post! Feel free, in fact, I'd welcome it! :D especially as we write in the same mode (as far as I can ascertain)

*does a little drunken jig around the room!*

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I've just downed a half a bottle of rose wine, so I'm feeling you, Hir! ;)

Welcome to the Moot, by the way. :)

[Hirulin]

Only half hun! tsk tsk tsk! get the rest drank! lol! My bottle of cherry is now empty! :( oh well! Off to the writing desk! Do you know the tengwar by the way?

Oh, and Fanx for the welcome! I must admit, the people on Entmoot are a lot friendlier than those on the council of elrond! lol!

Luv!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Oh, fear not, the first half had been drunk earlier!

Alas, I fear I do not know the Tengwar. I know a few word stems in Quenya and in Sindarin, but that's the extent of my grasp of Tolkien's languages.

[EllethValatari]

By the way, I write in the Sindarin mode (i.e. Vowels above the letter they precede) but with English words (I can't speak sindarin, I only know a few words courtesy of Thorsten Renk's "Pedin Edhellen" [sindarin course] )

I loved his course so much I printed it off and got it spiral-bound (and yes, my parents made me pay for the paper)! I'll have to take you up of that too, and it will be good practice plus I won't have to look up vocab and review the grammar!

[Hirulin]

I must admit that I used his course mainly for the writing side of things, although I do use it for reference regarding sindarin vocab! But even so, I enjoy a challenge. :D write me with sindarin words if you wish and I'll TRY to translate and write back! Lol! Again, email is in the first post in the thread. Write me anything you wish! Lol!

[Hirulin]

not sure if this will work as I'm doing this on my mobile but here's A Elbereth Gilthoniel that I wrote. I think there's a couple of errors in there, but not many at all! Oh, and the borders from ms publisher, I can't draw! Lol!


Not gonna work! Will do it when I'm on the pc! Lol!

[katya]

Half a bottle of wine would get me smashed. :D

I am so tempted to start studying the elvish languages again. If only there weren't so many real world languages to work on that I will actually need.... At least Tengwar is a very finite amount of information to learn. I can justify spending time on that. (Ah, compared to trying to learn hundreds of kanji, it sounds so easy.)

[Hirulin]

I know what you mean Katya! It is kind of pointless learning any fictional language, unless you know of others who can speak/write it too! (hence the creation of this post! lol) But I suppose you could just call it a hobby, and after all, it does sound/look great! :D

BTW! Does any-one know why the size limit on uploaded pictures is only 9.8KB??? I don't have ANYTHING that small! and if it is that small, it's tiny! lol!

[katya]

You can just upload pictures to somethings like flickr or photobucket and link it from there, or use imgur. Imgur is probably the quickest.

[Hirulin]

Thanks Katya! Your an ellen! (star, I think!lol)

Used Flickr in the end! so here goes!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4065/4706939958_8006ee568a_b.jpg

[Hirulin]

SUCCESS!!!! Yippee

[Hirulin]

I've also done - http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4706952648_3e6bdfeaa9_b.jpg

It's a poem I found online that I really liked! It reads-

I Gúron.

I gúron cên velethronen
Ias palan-revia pen râd
Ai, ithil veren cenithach
Estel 'uren vi estolad.

Thîr dÃ*n cenithach, thîr dÃ*n vell
I anÃ*ron cened trî chin
Limp a nÃ*niel ah rÃ*w garan,
Dân bannen ah calad sui lÃ*n.

Ten anno hiniath o nin.
Pedo gûr hen dartha thenin
A mibo thîr dÃ*n ah mipheleg
A tiro din, seron vell nÃ*n.

~~~~~~~~
Which means
~~~~~~~~

The Crescent Moon

The crescent moon sees my lover
Where he wanders far, pathless.
Ah, joyous moon, you will see
My heart's hope in an encampment.

His face you shall see, his dear face
That I desire to see through eyes
Wet and tearful with red borders,
But filled with a light like yours.

Give him news of me.
Say this heart stays true
And kiss his face with a little kiss
And watch over him, my dear lover.

[Hirulin]

Although I'm not too sure on the translation! It was written by some-one claiming to be "Luthien", english and sindarin, but I'm not sure how accuratly it's been translated, either way, it still looks and sounds good! :D

[Rían]

Here is part 1 (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=5568&highlight=tengwar) of the wonderful thread we had on writing in Tengwar (English mode, so you don't have to learn a language and can start writing all you want to immediately!!). And here is part two (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=13643) of the thread, which I will also bump for you :)

[Rían]

*bumps thread*

[Hirulin]

Any-one wanna tengwar pen-pal? (I know it's kinda sad, but what the hell! lol!)

Sindarin mode, english words!

NdC

[Earniel]

I just realised this was in General Messages, so moving this thread to the Middle-earth forum, and merging it in the other, active thread.

[Rían]

*bump*

[Rían]

I've started writing in Tengwar again, so I thought I'd bump this thread :)

It's been a few years since I've written in Tengwar (I write in the English language with the Tengwar character set) and I thought it would take a while to get back up to speed, but I was very surprised (and pleased) at how fast it came back.

Anyone else around here writing in Tengwar? :)

[Alcuin]

Yes. I use Tengwar Annatar (http://www.dafont.com/tengwar-annatar.font) and Tengwar Parmaite (here (http://www.fontspace.com/m%C3%A5ns-bj%C3%B6rkman/tengwar-parmaite) or here (http://at.mansbjorkman.net/parmaite.htm)) for computer.

Galin is rather expert on Tengwar and Sindarin.

[tolkienfan]

I took a religion class in college where most of the syllabus was made up of works by Tolkien (yes, it was an awesome class :D) For extra credit, we could enter a Tolkien art contest. Only problem is, I don't have an artistic bone in my body. So I took a poem about the stars that I'd written in Quenya, and copied it in Tengwar onto some black paper with a silver pen. I ended up being called to the front of the class to read the poem in elvish, along with the translation. Everyone clapped and I got the "people's choice award" for my submission! First time I'd ever entered an art contest, much less won anything! And I didn't even have to do anything that involved actual skill ;)

[Galin]

Thanks for the confidence Alcuin! But that said, I am far from an expert on the languages or the writing systems... that adjective belongs to folks like those who publish Vinyar Tengwar, for example. What I do is:

A) if I have time (and feel inclined to)... I try to answer the easier questions or requests (especially if short) :D

And importantly...

B) I try to find Tolkien made examples to back up something I say...

... although this can be a bit tricky for me in the field of linguistics since "one does not know what one does not know".

[Earniel]

Still pretty much a angerthas girl, the vowel-thing in Tengwar keeps tripping me up. I appreciate its beauty but not its practicality.

[Rían]

I took a religion class in college where most of the syllabus was made up of works by Tolkien (yes, it was an awesome class :D) For extra credit, we could enter a Tolkien art contest. Only problem is, I don't have an artistic bone in my body. So I took a poem about the stars that I'd written in Quenya, and copied it in Tengwar onto some black paper with a silver pen. I ended up being called to the front of the class to read the poem in elvish, along with the translation. Everyone clapped and I got the "people's choice award" for my submission! First time I'd ever entered an art contest, much less won anything! And I didn't even have to do anything that involved actual skill ;)
no actual skill? and you wrote a poem in Quenya and wrote it down using the Tengwar letters? Sounds like skill to me :) Can you post it here?

[Rían]

Still pretty much a angerthas girl, the vowel-thing in Tengwar keeps tripping me up. I appreciate its beauty but not its practicality.

Oh, I love the vowel marks!! For me, it's fun because it's so different from English writing.

Samples please? :)

Samples from everyone, please! :) so fun to see! I guess I need to dust off my photo bucket account; is that the best way, guys?

[Earniel]

Oh, I love the vowel marks!! For me, it's fun because it's so different from English writing.Fun but complicated. :p It isn't always evident when something is in Quenya mode or Sindarin mode and that makes for very slow reading. Especially if it's in another language too. (Not that I'm anywhere near speed-reading in angerthas, mind.)

Usually I just resort to carrier signs at the right spot of a vowel in our script, but somehow that doesn't feel like how Tolkien intended it...

Samples from everyone, please! :) so fun to see! I guess I need to dust off my photo bucket account; is that the best way, guys?
Lead by example? ;)

[Galin]

Still pretty much a angerthas girl, the vowel-thing in Tengwar keeps tripping me up. I appreciate its beauty but not its practicality.

Hmm, maybe the Mode of Beleriand, attested for writing in Sindarin, is for you?

This "antique S[indarin] mode" [DTS 58] is a mode of quanta sarme ("full writing"), meaning that both consonants and vowels are written with tengwar. In this it followed the quanta sarme which Feanor created "for the Loremasters" to represent Quenya. It is said that for languages such as Sindarin, "the diacritic method of indicating vowels was inconvenient"

Source, see below

Although there are still some uses for diacritics if I recall correctly, generally speaking there should be far less tripping. There is also (seemingly) a "general mode" which allows more freedom when using the diacritical marks.

"Vowels are in the General Use primarily represented by ómatehtar, vowel-marks. As demonstrated in DTS 58 [Tolkien's "Howlett Rivendell Inscriptions"], vowel-marks may in this mode be placed either above the following or the preceding consonant tengwa."

http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_general.htm

I assume as long as you are consistent within a given text, anyway.

[tolkienfan]

no actual skill? and you wrote a poem in Quenya and wrote it down using the Tengwar letters? Sounds like skill to me :) Can you post it here?

Haha I guess I meant artistic skill :D Can I post it? I tried to upload a picture as an attachment but got the message "upload failed". Nerdanel always has such nice pictures so it must be possible... I'd be happy to post if someone can give me some assistance!

[Rían]

me too, I just don't know how ... do you use photo bucket, people-that-know-how?

[Earniel]

Hmm, maybe the Mode of Beleriand, attested for writing in Sindarin, is for you?
I do prefer the Sindarin mode, but when reading it isn't always evident in which mode it was written, you have to decypher as you go along.

Haha I guess I meant artistic skill :D Can I post it? I tried to upload a picture as an attachment but got the message "upload failed". Nerdanel always has such nice pictures so it must be possible... I'd be happy to post if someone can give me some assistance!
Yes, sorry, uploading attachments is currently broken. :glance: We still need to look into it.

Putting it in a photobucket account or linking to it, like Nerdanel did for her gorgeous photos should still work. Linking, mind, not using the IMG-code since that's only enabled in GM. Hell, lemme test just to be sure...

some old but at least on topic imagery (http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz350/alytes/Tekeningen/rosetta_zpsrse0yd5m.jpg )

Yes, that seem to work.

(If people have or want a photobucket and want a quick walkthrough, feel free to PM me and I can give some very basic help. At your own peril. Not an expert by a long shot.)

[tolkienfan]

http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y329/agathachristiefan/DSC00563_zpsd9thy76m.jpg

[Galin]

I think it's great that you employed words that are poetic and Tolkienian!

I haven't really looked at all the words chosen, but about the writing, I hate to say it (and stating again that I'm no expert) but I don't agree with three out of your first four words for example, your versions of ninque ar laure cala as written in the Elvish script.

I agree with ar. It is more often the practice in Quenya to write the vowels above the preceding consonant (if available, which there is not one available in ar of course, in any case), but I guess if you are consistent you can say the whole text is in the general mode, so I'll ignore vowel placement.

:)

In the following, the numbered chart is the one in the Appendices to the book The Return of the King.

ninque

I would suggest that ninque be written with the tengwa (letter) called unque (number 16 in the chart), which is used for nqu (nkw).

You have quesse rather, and a letter after it, but all you need is the one Elvish letter for -nqu-, as Tolkien himself uses in the word enquantuva.

By the way, at least one person thinks Tolkien should not have used this letter for enquantuva: Vincente Velasco states: "The phoneme nqu (nkw) is written with the tengwa unque. While this may be correct, it is my opinion that it should be written with a númen and a quesse. The reason for this is in order for the reader to be aware that enquantuva is a compound of en- "re-, again" and quantuva, the future tense form of quanta- "fill". The use of two tengwar instead of one preserves this construction,..."

But even if so for the word "en-quantuva", for ninque I would use unque.

ar

As I said, I agree. Although Tolkien himself writes the vowel over a carrier and followed it with the consonant -- but again that is merely choice of vowel placement. The suggestion to use preceding consonant (if available) for writing Quenya is seemingly due to the fact that a lot of Quenya words end in a vowel.

laure

Au is a diphthong in Quenya and is written with the vowel sign for a above the tengwa úre (number 36 in the chart). Tolkien wrote laurie this way, attested in his tengwar version of Galadriel's Namárie, published by him in The Road Goes Ever On in the 1960s.

Also, for -r- in laurie Tolkien uses the letter rómen (in the Quenya word ar the r sound ends the word, so there I agree with your use of óre).

The website Amanye Tenceli explains that with one exception, in the Namárie manuscripts óre represents r before consonants and word-finally, while rómen is used before vowels, and as I say, rómen is used between the diphthong -au- and the vowel i in the word laurie -- technically the vowel i is above the preceding consonant in Tolkien's script of course, even though I use "between" to describe it here.


cala

You seem to use quesse for both qu (kw) and c (k). But for c I suggest the tengwa calma (number 3 in the chart). I would employ quesse (number 4) for -qu- (just the one Elvish letter). And generally speaking, unque for nqu, as I noted above.

Well, I'll stop here. I don't really have time to go through it all (nor do I want to annoy you any further if I disagree with anything else) but my general advice is to follow Tolkien whenever possible, which I think I have here, about this much anyway...

... unless JRRT makes a mistake :)

And he actually makes one when writing in Elvish in the documentary narrated by Judi Dench... and catches himself!

[tolkienfan]

Galin - thanks for the feedback! I'm always interested to learn more about quenya, tengwar, and really anything to do with middle earth :D

As I said, I made this when I was in college. All my books were at home, so I was working from memory. I'm not at all surprised that I forgot some of the more unique letters and that it's generally riddled with mistakes :o

Also, I was (and am) much more concerned with the actual quenya. The poem is actually an excerpt from a libretto that I wrote for a 3-part symphony based on the Ainulindale. I tried very hard to write what I thought Tolkien might have written, so I'm glad you thought I got close!

[Alcuin]

Tolkien himself made mistakes writing Elvish! Take it from him in this part of his interview from the 1968 BBC series In Their Own Words British Authors. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca5TUYB1nlw&t=4m03s)

[Galin]

Yes I think that's the same footage (Tolkien writing in Elvish and saying he's made a mistake) used for the special narrated by Judi Dench.

Thanks Alcuin!

Tolkienfan -- working from memory there? In that case wow! For myself I had totally forgotten about unque for the moment, for example...

... until I accidentally tripped over Mr. Velasco's disagreement with Tolkien :D