Celeborn's age

[jammi567]

Does anyone know how old Celeborn is? he's a kinsman of Thingol, but does that mean he was born at Cuivienen(?), or on the Great Jouney, or at Doriath?

[brownjenkins]

Tolkien changed his idea on this a few times. Originally, he was seen as a close decendent of Thingol, but later a good bit older, possibly on par with Galadriel, born in Valinor or a bit earlier.

[The Gaffer]

My understanding was that Celeborn hadn't been to Valinor, but lived in Doriath.

I am aware that the story of Celeborn and Galadriel was changed many times and no "final" version was settled upon by JRRT before his death.

Unfinished Tales has various bits and pieces of these versions.

[The Telcontarion]

I always go by published info in these cases, as christopher Tolkien said himself the silmarillion is the official story; the home presented corrections, but for continuuity you follow the sil.

in the sil, he was said to be a prince of Doriath and close kin to thingol, so I assume he was born sometime after the awakening but probably before the founding of Doriath.

[jammi567]

Yeah, maybe on the jouney to valinor

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

He's Thingol's, brother's grandson, if you look at the family trees in the back. It's probably safe to assume that he is a little older, but probably close to the same age as his lady. Give or take a century or two.

[jammi567]

Routhly what i was thinking.

[brownjenkins]

I always go by published info in these cases, as christopher Tolkien said himself the silmarillion is the official story; the home presented corrections, but for continuuity you follow the sil.

in the sil, he was said to be a prince of Doriath and close kin to thingol, so I assume he was born sometime after the awakening but probably before the founding of Doriath.

True, however UT mentions that Tolkien's later writings pointed to the possibility of Celeborn and Galadriel meeting in Valinor, and JRR may have even been intending to fit this into the final rewrite of the Sil, which he could not complete before his death.

So, while CT may call the Sil "the official story", JRR might not agree.

To me, the official story is undecided, as is true with much regarding the first age.

[The Telcontarion]

Yes you are right, I do believe that JRR would have changed it to that version of the story where galadriel actually leaves valinor before feanor does. But that did not happen, what is published is what I would go by not the later notes etc.

[jammi567]

But how do you know that those later notes wouldn't been incorproated into the sil, had he lived longer.

[The Gaffer]

I guess because that would require knowing what JRRT's intentions were, even though he may not have known them himself.

He footered with the story of G & C for decades, and might never have stopped...

[Valandil]

It would also depend at what point you asked JRRT. And when is the most important point? His initial conception? While he was writing LOTR? The most comprehensive account he wrote? The last account he wrote? His final (unwritten) thoughts on the subject?

While Christopher's approach may not resolve what his father would have preferred - I think it's the best solution - just by setting up something comprehensive and rather final. I think his father would have approved of the approach - even if not the end result.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Because the time flow in Aman was more suited to a leisurely Elf life(note how when the Felllowship is in Lorien, where this is similated to power of Nenya, they experience a month as if it were a few days), I suspect that generations were much closer together in Beleriand, and that X generations done from Thingol's were born sooner than x genrations down from Finwe.

[Alcuin]

If I remember correctly, I believe the Eldar did complain that as time passed most swiftly for them in Middle-earth: specifically, they faded in Middle-earth faster than in Aman. But an example using the generations of Thingol compared to those of his friend Finwë is in error: Thingol produced one generation of offspring – Lúthien – while Finwë enjoyed at least two generations in the same time – and two marriages, unique in Elven history.

[Landroval]

I wouldn't say the remarriage of Finwe was unique - though it may have been the only recorded one:
Thus it is that the cases in which remarriage of the Eldar can take place are rare, but rarer still are those who do this, even when it is permissible. For the sorrow and strife in the house of Finwe is graven in the memory of the Eldar.