Do some interpretations seem overblown?

[hectorberlioz]

I was thinking about this recently; that some artists, namely PJ & Co, have made Tolkien's world into some kind of Dungeons & Dragons hash.

A lot of artists draw/paint the creatures/beasts as something a bit...geeky. The Balrog always falls to this: he's the most "dangerous", and so he turns out pretty ROOOAAAARRRRR!-ish, if you know what I mean.

I just can't imagine Tolkien liking, much less creating something as geeky as some artists portray the Balrog, as well as other creatures...

I'm sure the last thing on Tolkien's mind was an RPG -ish world. His world is supposed to be noble...

Thoughts on this?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Dungeons and Dragons? Fah, I wouldn't smear the name of a perfectly respectable albeit comparatively boring RPG.

[Alcuin]

In 1958, Morton Grady Zimmerman (http://www.marquette.edu/library/collections/archives/News/tolkien.html) and Forrest J Ackerman (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0009969/) negotiated with Tolkien to make a movie of Lord of the Rings. The more politically correct among us would term Tolkien’s critique of Zimmerman’s proposed script “savage”; compare a couple of choice comments from Letter 210 written to Ackerman with another recent cinematic treatment of Lord of the Rings:Strider does not ‘Whip out a sword’ in the book. Naturally not: his sword was broken. …
...
The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z[immerman] may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him. Zimmerman died in 2000. In 2002, his heirs donated the unused movie script (http://www.marquette.edu/library/collections/archives/News/tolkien.html) to the Marquette University (http://www.marquette.edu/) Tolkien Collection (http://www.marquette.edu/library/collections/archives/tolkien.html). (Rather decent of them, given Tolkien’s brusque rejection of the script, and wonderful for future Tolkien scholars.)

Professor Janet B Croft at the University of Oklahoma has an article online describing all the movie treatments (http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/three_rings_for_hollywood.htm) prior to the recent P.J. Jackson work, as well as the shifting ownership of the movie rights, which Tolkien subsequently sold to pay his taxes. All of them have strengths and weaknesses, which she discusses in her short article.

[Earniel]

I think that's just a part of the times, we need things to be grand and ROOO-AAR. We've just seen all the rest already. The next time it will have to be bigger, louder and scarier, at least that's what most people want. Think of the 'revival' of horror films lately.

Tolkien on the other hand, could be quite old-fashioned about it, but then again the century he lived in was totally different. And authors don't like different interpretations of their work either way. I bet Tolkien would be rather puzzled, or perhaps slightly disconcerted at finding out that a large porportion of his (younger) fans want a One Ring, or fabricate one for themselves, considering just what the One Ring actually stands for.

[Lizra]

Of course orcs are pierced and tattooed up! :p I think the elves needed more hair care products.......

[hectorberlioz]

Well, glad some of you see my point...

I'm also thinking of the overdramatised "Waterbeast" at the gates of Moria...

Also the Black Riders: at first the music for them was nice, but it seems to blare out all the time in the films, and thus takes away all the inherent scariness that they at first had...

Elf Hair is a totally different subject, Lizra... :p

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I bet Tolkien would be rather puzzled, or perhaps slightly disconcerted at finding out that a large porportion of his (younger) fans want a One Ring, or fabricate one for themselves, considering just what the One Ring actually stands for.

The Machine... :eek:

I think the elves needed more hair care products.......

Oh, yep, uh-huh, definitely, yeah. ;)

Also the Black Riders: at first the music for them was nice, but it seems to blare out all the time in the films, and thus takes away all the inherent scariness that they at first had...

I could be wrong, but wasn't there something, either in the book or Tolkien's letter to Zimmerman, which indicated that the Ringwraiths were silent, contrary to PJ's Vizualisation?

[Landroval]

I could be wrong, but wasn't there something, either in the book or Tolkien's letter to Zimmerman, which indicated that the Ringwraiths were silent, contrary to PJ's Vizualisation?
Hm, I haven't checked the letters, but the ugly slime witch king sure did address Eowyn at the Battle of the Pellenor Fields; he also cried three times before the city gates were broken, it is said that the cry of the nazgul was the cry of Sauron himself (this may not be verbatim, I don't have the books handy). Also, the nazgul were war commanders, leaders of armies; though I have no doubt that some of Sauron's forces had more than physical strength, I doubt that the wraiths could have controlled their armies simply by thought transmission, seeing the low stage at which most of their soldiers were.

[Gordis]

I could be wrong, but wasn't there something, either in the book or Tolkien's letter to Zimmerman, which indicated that the Ringwraiths were silent, contrary to PJ's Vizualisation?
Exactly.
Here are Tolkien comments on the Weathertop scene in the film script (Letter 210, 1958)

11. Aragorn did not 'sing the song of Gil-galad'. Naturally: it was quite inappropriate, since it told of the defeat of the Elven-king by the Enemy. The Black Riders do not scream, but keep a more terrifying silence. Aragorn does not blanch. The riders draw slowly in on foot in darkness, and do not 'spur'. There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20:4 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)
Why has my account been entirely rewritten here, with disregard for the rest of the tale? I can see that there are certain difficulties in representing a dark scene; but they are not insuperable. A scene of gloom lit by a small red fire, with the Wraiths slowly approaching as darker shadows – until the moment when Frodo puts on the Ring, and the King steps forward revealed – would seem to me far more impressive than yet one more scene of screams and rather meaningless slashings.....
I have spent some time on this passage, as an example of what I find too frequent to give me 'pleasure or satisfaction': deliberate alteration of the story, in fact and significance, without any practical or artistic object (that I can see); and of the flattening effect that assimilation of one incident to another must have.


but the ugly slime witch king
I see it is very personal with you, Landroval! What did he do to you? Turned the Eagle of Manwe into a Fell Beast? :p

[Landroval]

Here are Tolkien comments on the Weathertop scene in the film script (Letter 210, 1958)
I agree; in that particular scene, they were as mute as a fish.
I see it is very personal with you, Landroval! What did he do to you? Turned the Eagle of Manwe into a Fell Beast?
In a remote way, there is a faint possiblity that the vapours of Mordor could induce a ringwraith to have such a wild hallucination. Which only goes to show the strength of the hallucinogen :). Hang on, I take that back; nothing could derrange a nazgul's mind so deeply. Oh, they are already derranged... nevermind.

[Alcuin]

...there is a faint possiblity that the vapours of Mordor could induce ... such a wild hallucination[s].Morgul Vale was full of poppies, was it not? I’ve heard that if you lie down in a field of poppies before harvest, you can never wake up.

[Landroval]

Morgul Vale was full of poppies, was it not? I’ve heard that if you lie down in a field of poppies before harvest, you can never wake up.
Well, I guess that the fumellar of Lothlorien would never produce such a terrible effect. It must be some rabid strain
:D

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Exactly.
Here are Tolkien comments on the Weathertop scene in the film script (Letter 210, 1958)

Thanks, that's what I was looking for.

[Butterbeer]

didn't he say something like *jived up a bit in blaxploitation style * ' get outtda day way fool!*

when he confronts Gandalf at the gates of Minas tirith?

also ... "no living dude, yo man, may harm me Black ass?" to Eowyn?

"Come not between da man and his Prey?"

...er...if i recall correctly he said rather a lot ...one of the nine asked the Gaffer a question at Hobbiton and they asked for "shire" a fair bit ...

then there's ... ;)

(oops just noticed landroval's post above)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think it was actually "I pity the foo' who's old and goes from grey to white, yo."

[hectorberlioz]

Mouth of Suaron *throwing down the mithril shirt*:

"Betch' can't guess who 'dis b'longed to! Yo bro?"

Aragorn: [Edited for the sake of younger ones]

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Dis yo mama's blouse, yo!

[hectorberlioz]

:p Hahaha....

Definitely time to get home and eat before I pass out from laughter...I'm alienating the library clients...

[jammi567]

Witch-king: Yo, yo, yo [female dog]. You wanna 'ight me
Eowyn: Ya, yo [kid by another man ie.Will the conquor].
(draws out a shotgun, and blows him to bits).
Eowyn: How'd you like that, callinfg be a [female dog].

Stupid, but rushed a bit.

[Gordis]

Professor Janet B Croft at the University of Oklahoma has an article online describing all the movie treatments (http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/three_rings_for_hollywood.htm) prior to the recent P.J. Jackson work, as well as the shifting ownership of the movie rights, which Tolkien subsequently sold to pay his taxes. All of them have strengths and weaknesses, which she discusses in her short article.
I have read this article. Most interesting link, thanks, Alcuin! :)

There was even a scenario where Galadriel seduced Frodo! :eek:

Alcuin, Landroval, I see you are really envious of our Morgul™ horticulture! ;)

[Landroval]

Alcuin, Landroval, I see you are really envious of our Morgul™ horticulture!
Pooor dear Gordis... she couldn't keep herself away from it.... :eek:

[Alcuin]

Alcuin, Landroval, I see you are really envious of our Morgul™ horticulture! ;)Ah, horticulture! Now at last I understand! The Lord of the Nazgûl wanted only to farm the lands of Ithilien. If only the folk of Minas Tirith had understood, and found with him some compromise or accomodation, all these confusions and bloodshed might have been avoided. :evil:

It is a lesson for our own age.

[Gordis]

Ah, horticulture! Now at last I understand! The Lord of the Nazgûl wanted only to farm the lands of Ithilien. If only the folk of Minas Tirith had understood, and found with him some compromise or accomodation, all these confusions and bloodshed might have been avoided. :evil:

It is a lesson for our own age.

Indeed. Fair Ithilien , the garden of Mordor... pale flowers of Imlad Morgul...

Those mortals are always envious of what is beyond their puny understanding. They couldn't keep a single White Tree!
:D

[hectorberlioz]

There was even a scenario where Galadriel seduced Frodo! :eek:



What in the Dear Lord's Earth?!.. :eek:

[Rían]

I could be wrong, but wasn't there something, either in the book or Tolkien's letter to Zimmerman, which indicated that the Ringwraiths were silent, contrary to PJ's Vizualisation?You mean they don't come with background music? :confused:

Ah, horticulture! Now at last I understand! The Lord of the Nazgûl wanted only to farm the lands of Ithilien.LOL! :D

[Wayfarer]

I was thinking about this recently; that some artists, namely PJ & Co, have made Tolkien's world into some kind of Dungeons & Dragons hash.

A lot of artists draw/paint the creatures/beasts as something a bit...geeky. The Balrog always falls to this: he's the most "dangerous", and so he turns out pretty ROOOAAAARRRRR!-ish, if you know what I mean.

I just can't imagine Tolkien liking, much less creating something as geeky as some artists portray the Balrog, as well as other creatures...

I'm sure the last thing on Tolkien's mind was an RPG -ish world. His world is supposed to be noble...

Thoughts on this?

Some? More like 'most'. Nine out of ten times, when Tolkien is brought up it's this psuedo-mythos that has grown up completely independant of the source material.

D&D and its inheritors are actually a good example of this phenomenon in action. It wants to be, it's desperately trying to be, Middle Earth - with Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs. But it's a completely shallow, facile treatment of the complex world Tolkien wrote about.

The Balrog? Fah. The real travesty is the treatment of people. Elves are probably the worst offenders here, (and some on this forum might remember previous comments on the subject of Fanon elves) but Orcs, Dwarves, and Hobbits all get misrepresented on a regular basis.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

You mean they don't come with background music? :confused:

As I recall, didn't they, like, scream when they got a torch got lodged in their hoods, and things like that? :p

It wants to be, it's desperately trying to be, Middle Earth

Don't forget Halfings. Which I believe were called "Hobbits" in the original incarnation, weren't they?

[Curubethion]

I'm not sure...but I think "hobbits" might have been an attempt to avoid copyright violations. Apparently, "orcs" already existed in mythology.

[Wayfarer]

Yes.

They were originally 'Hobbits' until Tolkien's Estate sued somebody for copyright violation, and it was changed to the non-copyrighted 'Halfling.'

[Rían]

*waves to Wayfarer*

are you still roaming the halls of uni-land?

[Alcuin]

D&D and its inheritors are actually a good example of this phenomenon in action. It wants to be, it's desperately trying to be, Middle Earth - with Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs. But it's a completely shallow, facile treatment of the complex world Tolkien wrote about.Dungeons & Dragons “Type VI Demons” or “Balor” were originally called “Balrogs”. This was also printed in the first edition of the AD&D Monster Manual (I think that’s now called AD&D2 to you young pups, but yelp and correct me if I am mistaken), but not in subsequent editions; and if I remember correctly, the local hobby stores pulled the old ones off the shelves and replaced them with new ones.

The quality of a D&D campaign depends entirely upon its participants, not upon the rules of the game. Think of it as free-form chess.

[Wayfarer]

Yes, yes I am. Still working at it, one semester at a time.

Dungeons & Dragons “Type VI Demons” or “Balor” were originally called “Balrogs”. This was also printed in the first edition of the AD&D Monster Manual (I think that’s now called AD&D2 to you young pups, but yelp and correct me if I am mistaken), but not in subsequent editions; and if I remember correctly, the local hobby stores pulled the old ones off the shelves and replaced them with new ones.

And when they die, they do 100 points of damage to everything in 100 feet! They can only be hurt with Good, Cold Iron weapons! They're immune to electricity! They can cast Implosion once per day, and summon another Balrog!

Yeah. That's pretty overblown. Come to think of it, Gandalf never cast Meteor Storm. And Aragorn didn't specialize in Two Weapon Fighting or have an animal companion. And Frodo certainly didn't seem proficient in Martial Weapons and Heavy Armor.

And on, and on. Because depth and subtlety lose out to flash and noise.

[Alcuin]

Yes, yes I am. Still working at it, one semester at a time.You can spend a semester playing D&D, or you can spend a semester getting an education. Get an education while it is offered to you, or you will get an education you will not care to receive.

...That's pretty overblown. ... depth and subtlety lose out to flash and noise.A comment not unlike those lobbed at some recent cinematic works often discussed in forums like this one. It is a late twentieth, early twenty-first century rampant and systematic failure of the imagination in societies around the world.

[Wayfarer]

I'm spending hours and hours every week studying. I've given up RPG's in general, except for one, which is play by post and doesn't take much time at all. My biggest concern right now is being able to take the right classes.

Yes, I was thinking partially of films when I said that. I've noticed the phenomenon in films, rpg's, derivitive works, and various discussions on the subject. It's pretty widespread.

[Rían]

Yes, yes I am. Still working at it, one semester at a time. Good for you!! [/mom mode]

(you'll be glad)

[brownjenkins]

I was thinking about this recently; that some artists, namely PJ & Co, have made Tolkien's world into some kind of Dungeons & Dragons hash.

A lot of artists draw/paint the creatures/beasts as something a bit...geeky. The Balrog always falls to this: he's the most "dangerous", and so he turns out pretty ROOOAAAARRRRR!-ish, if you know what I mean.

I just can't imagine Tolkien liking, much less creating something as geeky as some artists portray the Balrog, as well as other creatures...

I'm sure the last thing on Tolkien's mind was an RPG -ish world. His world is supposed to be noble...

Thoughts on this?

I think it's a testament to Tolkien's achievement that so many want to interpret his stories. Let's remember, Tolkien's own stories, while containing many original elements were based upon earlier mythologies, from the Norse, to Beowulf to even the Christian bible.

A Christian could just as easily say, "How could Tolkien take a sacred tale like the Genesis and turn it into a bunch of pseudo-angelic 'ainur' singing to create the world. God didn't need any orchestra of angels, he did it all himself!"

How good or bad an interpretation is is really based upon the viewer. And, the fact is, a lot of people like PJs movies.

[Alcuin]

A Christian could just as easily say, "How could Tolkien take a sacred tale like the Genesis and turn it into a bunch of pseudo-angelic 'ainur' singing to create the world. God didn't need any orchestra of angels, he did it all himself!" Hm. I thought Tolkien was a Christian. Perhaps I am mistaken. Come to think of it, I believe that in Tolkien’s Ainulindalë, Eru created Eä, not the Ainur, and put within it the Flame Imperishable. He allowed the Ainur to enter into and shape Eä according to what they had sung and heard in the Great Music.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I'm not sure...but I think "hobbits" might have been an attempt to avoid copyright violations. Apparently, "orcs" already existed in mythology.

Not really...the word existed, but not orcs as such.

Dungeons & Dragons “Type VI Demons” or “Balor” were originally called “Balrogs”. This was also printed in the first edition of the AD&D Monster Manual (I think that’s now called AD&D2 to you young pups, but yelp and correct me if I am mistaken)

Whaddaya think I am? Some sort of gnoll, or kobold? :p

I was pretty sure that Balor came from Balrog. I mean, come on, look at the bastard... (http://www.savagefrontier.net/main/images/stories/annora/dnd%20balor%20pic.jpg)

[brownjenkins]

Hm. I thought Tolkien was a Christian. Perhaps I am mistaken. Come to think of it, I believe that in Tolkien’s Ainulindalë, Eru created Eä, not the Ainur, and put within it the Flame Imperishable. He allowed the Ainur to enter into and shape Eä according to what they had sung and heard in the Great Music.

He was christian.

But the point is that his story, in many ways, was an interpretation of many older stories, the genesis included.

All writing is based upon previous stories, the license to interpret is at it's very foundation.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It's not an interpretation, it derives inspiration from. It doesn't claim to be the same as another story.

[BeardofPants]

well that's debatable.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

All the better! ;)

[brownjenkins]

It's not an interpretation, it derives inspiration from. It doesn't claim to be the same as another story.

I don't think PJ claimed the movies were to be the same as the books either. ;)

[Rían]

he prob thought they were better :rolleyes:

[Spock]

P.J. brought the books to life for many, myself included. I've been reading and re-reading the books for decades and the movies are visually wonderful and easy to follow.

[Alcuin]

P.J. brought the books to life for many, myself included. I've been reading and re-reading the books for decades and the movies are visually wonderful and easy to follow.It’s for this reason – that the Jackson movies brought many people who might otherwise have never read Tolkien or known anything about the story – that I now have less outrage than I did when I first saw the productions, particularly the second and third films.

It speaks to the tremendous quality of Tolkien’s Tale that it can be so badly abused and still seem wonderful to so many. The story of the Trojan War is a magnificent tale (and partly real history, based upon an actual war waged by the Achaeans against the Trojans), one that most of us know from constant exposure and re-telling; but how many of you reading this post have ever read Iliad? Most Americans read Odyssey as freshmen in high school; but where is the story of the Trojan Horse? It isn’t in Odyssey, and – get this – it isn’t in Iliad, either. It comes from Quintus of Smyrna and his account, The War at Troy.

Ray Harryhausen (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0366063/) may have butchered the story of Jason and the Argonauts, the Perseus myths, and the Sinbad legends, but is that important to remembering the stories and characters? Probably not. For many people, his version of the stories are the ones they recall.

The difference with Tolkien is that the story is still fresh – The Hobbit was published about 70 years ago, within the lives of many people, and the The Fellowship of the Ring in 1954, within the lifetime of many more folks. New material is still coming to publication, such as The Children of Húrin. The copyright in not in the public domain, and we know from his Letters that Tolkien was quite particular about how the story was adapted to film. The matter of how the adaptations are delivered is no longer the decision of the author or his heirs; but the adaptations so far have been reasonably good given the state of cinematography at the time they were made. The greatest boon that overrides the shortcomings of the film adaptations is that they draw people to reading the books and the story as Tolkien presented it.

[Spock]

Well said.! :)

[brownjenkins]

I second that! :D

[Spock]

I second that! :D
__________________
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

I don't believe that. :p