The Girdle of Melian

[Tulkas]

what exactly was it, for example was it a force field of some sort....was it something you could see, or was it just an invisable boundry...i have no clue.

[jammi567]

it was an invisible barrior that confused traverlers who entered, and made them lost. However, if you had the approval of the king and/or queen (or were fated) then you could get through safely.

[Tulkas]

yeah but in the book i though it said that only the people who King Thingol wanted to pass could pass...and as for the confusion and lost thing i thought that was in Nan Elmoth or something like that.

[jammi567]

Yeah. That's what i said. Thingol is king of Doriath. And too the confusion and lost thing, think of Turin and his guardians. They ran out of food and water, and would died if Beleg hadn't happened to come along, because they were lost.

[Tulkas]

yeah but then couldnt orcs and other creature of morgoth make there way through the girdle and into menegorath without thingol's permission?

[durinsbane2244]

no, see, they would get confused and lost. that's why he had it. :D

[Tulkas]

ok so lemme try to put this all together...The Girldle of Melian is an invisable barrier and when crossed you become confused and lost unless you have the permission of King Thingol to enter?

[jammi567]

Yes, basically. You could also get in if you were fated to *hintBerenhint*. :rolleyes:

[Tulkas]

no that doesnt make sense though cause then they could of had orcs roaming around the woods of Doriath, and iv never read about any of Thingol's men slaying orcs within the Girdle of Melian. The only 2 iv ever read about getting in the Girdle was Beren and, that dog/wolf that ate the Silmaril...

[jammi567]

no that doesnt make sense though cause then they could of had orcs roaming around the woods of Doriath, and iv never read about any of Thingol's men slaying orcs within the Girdle of Melian.
:confused:

The only 2 iv ever read about getting in the Girdle was Beren and, that dog/wolf that ate the Silmaril...
yep.

[Alcuin]

no that doesnt make sense though cause then they could of had orcs roaming around the woods of Doriath, and iv never read about any of Thingol's men slaying orcs within the Girdle of Melian.
:confused:


The only 2 iv ever read about getting in the Girdle was Beren and, that dog/wolf that ate the Silmaril...yep.The Dwarves of Nogrod somehow entered Doriath in force despite the Girdle of Melian and sacked Menegroth. (I think Tolkien struggled with this issue vis-Ã*-vis the Girdle of Melian.)

From The Silmarillion, of the Coming of Men into the West�:It is said that in all these matters [concerning the coming of Men into Beleriand,] none save Finrod Felagund took counsel with King Thingol, and he was ill pleased, both for that reason, and because he was troubled by dreams concerning the coming of Men, ere ever the first tidings of them were heard. ... he said: ‘Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of Bëor who serve Finrod the beloved.’ Melian said nothing to him at that time, but afterwards she said to Galadriel: ‘Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of Bëor’s house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.’Galadriel apparently set a barrier about Lórien. She seems also to have learned the making of lembas from Melian, if she did know it already from Valinor. If you consider it, both Lórien and Thranduil’s realm were echoes of Doriath.

[Tulkas]

has anyone seen like a drawing of someone depiction of the girdle of melian?? if so please post the link.

[jammi567]

The Dwarves of Nogrod somehow entered Doriath in force despite the Girdle of Melian and sacked Menegroth. (I think Tolkien struggled with this issue vis-Ã*-vis the Girdle of Melian.)
Looking at the chapter, Thingol asked he dwarfs to incert the silmaril into that neckerlace. They did so, but demanded paymentof something. At this, Thingol got angery, and sent them away with nothing. But the dwarfs got angery at this, and slayed him there and then

[The Gaffer]

From The Silmarillion, of the Coming of Men into the West�:Galadriel apparently set a barrier about Lórien. She seems also to have learned the making of lembas from Melian, if she did know it already from Valinor. If you consider it, both Lórien and Thranduil’s realm were echoes of Doriath.
That's one of those things that you never notice and then someone points it out and you think you're really stupid for never noticing it.

Lorien, Doriath.

A lot of the elvish stuff is about making the kingdoms such that you couldn't get in (Gondolin, Nargothrond, but in a different way); Treebeard congratulates Galadriel on preventing the orcs from getting in during the war of the Ring.

No wonder men and elves were "estranged".

"Sorry, we've got all this cool stuff, but you can't come in."

[Tulkas]

ok but i still dont think that if you crossed the girdle you became confused and lost....i DONT think it was possible at all to cross, save for beren and the wolf that ate the silmaril.

[Alcuin]

ok but i still dont think that if you crossed the girdle you became confused and lost....i DONT think it was possible at all to cross, save for beren and the wolf that ate the silmaril.I don’t think the Girdle of Melian (also called List Melian and Lest Melian) was a physical barrier. Like the Shadowy Isles that prevented the Noldor and the Edain from sailing to Valinor during almost all the First Age, I believe it was a region in which one could not find one’s proper direction, in which unwelcome travelers became lost, bewildered, and confused.

This understanding explains why some could cross but others could not: it was (pardon the word) a “magicâ€� barrier or region. It also goes far to explain why Tolkien was so uncomfortable with the notion that the Dwarves of Nargothrond were able to enter Doriath, sack Menegroth, kill Thingol, steal the Silmaril in the NauglamÃ*r, and escape.

[durinsbane2244]

ok but i still dont think that if you crossed the girdle you became confused and lost....i DONT think it was possible at all to cross, save for beren and the wolf that ate the silmaril.

no, see, that's the problem. they DON'T cross. they become confused and lost as soon as they enter, so the CAN'T cross. that's the point of it. :D

[tolkienfan]

Isn't there something like that in Mirkwood, in the Hobbit too? It just occured to me that it could be something similar. I haven't read that part in a while though. Is it explained?

[jammi567]

This understanding explains why some could cross but others could not: it was (pardon the word) a “magicâ€� barrier or region. It also goes far to explain why Tolkien was so uncomfortable with the notion that the Dwarves of Nargothrond were able to enter Doriath, sack Menegroth, kill Thingol, steal the Silmaril in the NauglamÃ*r, and escape.
But like i've posted above, Chris solved it by making the Dwarves come in on Thingols approval, them getting angry whilst they were there, and slaying him there on the spot.

[Alcuin]

But like i've posted above, Chris solved it by making the Dwarves come in on Thingols approval, them getting angry whilst they were there, and slaying him there on the spot.Ah! You are correct. Nice catch.

[jammi567]

Thanks, and no problem.

[Valtir]

I've always seen the Girdle of Melian (*snicker) as a magical "haze" so to speak, which completely and utterly stymies anyone's attempts to pass without the "magic words".

Beren's ability to pass is but the unfolding of Melian's foresight ages ere.