Couple of questions

[jammi567]

1) When did Shelob settle into her lair? Because she can't have been there at the end of the second age, and the first half of the third, because they had a watch tower to get to, and it would be a bit impracticle if she was already there.

2) How does the Witch-King go from a horse when he enters Minas Tirith during the siedge, to a Fell beast a few minutes later when he fight Eowin?

[Spock]

the first, is found in the Sil and part in the Trilogy, I just don't have time to look it up now.
The second; horse-drowned at the fjord by Rivendell; also book mentions 'they are now mounted on fell beasts'. :)

[jammi567]

But the Witch-king enters the city on a horse, yet moments later, he's on a fell-beast.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Nay, Spockie, you dinnae read the question closely enough. He refers to the Witch-kind entering Minas Tirith on a horse, after the Gates are broken down, not to Rivendell.

[Spock]

1. Don't get his phraseology.
2. Have trouble reading some postings misspelled.
3. Is this the book or the movie?

:eek:

[jammi567]

Errrr, book,of course. :)

[Landroval]

At the begining of The Battle of Pelennor Fields, it is stated that "he was still in command, wielding great powers; king, ringwraith, lord of the nazgul, he had many weapons" (despite the quote, I have nothing but contempt for that ugly thing :p ). My guess is that the fell beast, one of the largest flying creatures of Middle-Earth, was one such weapon. They probably had a rendez-vous between the gates of the city and the confrontation with Eowyn.

[jammi567]

Yeah, so that both of them could psycologically scare her before they battled.

[Gordis]

1) When did Shelob settle into her lair? Because she can't have been there at the end of the second age, and the first half of the third, because they had a watch tower to get to, and it would be a bit impracticle if she was already there.
She was there since the end of the First Age or the beginning of the Second Age (see the quote below). She must have hidden in Torech Ungol in the Mountains of Shadow after the fall of Angband and the drowning of Beleriand - about the same time as the Barlog hid in Moria.
There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself,... LOTR

As for accessing the Watch-Tower, there was a road leading to Cirith Ungol from Minas Ithil, so most of the traffic between the two fortresses went this way. The tunnel and the stairs must have been constructed as an additional way to the upper fortress - but I doubt that the tunnel when it was first built had a connection to Shelob's lair. This connection, allowing the spider access to the main tunnel, was likely to appear later.

Look at the description of the lair in the LOTR.

There was the main fairly straight tunnel (man-made undoubtedly) then at one place there was an opening in the left-hand (north) wall "far wider than any they had yet passed; and out of it came a reek so foul, and a sense of lurking malice"
Apart from these, there were many side openings from the Main tunnel, leading to accessory tunnels running parallel to the main way. These were made by orcs to avoid passing by Shelob's lair. These tunnels were too narrow for the spider.
Tolkien made a scetch of the lair that is published in one of HOME books (either 7 or 8 - I have no time to check it now).

2) How does the Witch-King go from a horse when he enters Minas Tirith during the siedge, to a Fell beast a few minutes later when he fight Eowin?
I see no problem here: he called the Beast, it seems; it came and that's it.
I think it was kept either in Osgiliath (most likely) or just outside the range of Gondorian arrows.

despite the quote, I have nothing but contempt for that ugly thing Well, the eagles of the Misty Mountains deserve nothing but contempt themselves for sitting in their eyries among dead mice and rotting carrion while the Fellowship toiled to Orodruin. At least, they could have been handy beasts of burden. :p As it is, they came so late that everything was decided anyway.
:D

[Landroval]

Are you reffering to the same great eagles, descendants of a maia, the "fearless", "noble-hearted", that saved the behind of almost every important character in the history of Arda? :)

And by what curious chance did you get to know the the description of their eeries? And is your description worse than the bowels of hell, filled with the stench of foul creatures, a place in which the nazuls were most likely delighted to live in? If so... to each his own.

Beasts of burden? Who would fail to notice the greatest birds of Middle-Earth? Fortunately, no one risked proposing such a feat at the council of Elrond; I wonder what Gandalf's words would have been ... :eek:

[jammi567]

As for accessing the Watch-Tower, there was a road leading to Cirith Ungol from Minas Ithil, so most of the traffic between the two fortresses went this way. The tunnel and the stairs must have been constructed as an additional way to the upper fortress - but I doubt that the tunnel when it was first built had a connection to Shelob's lair. This connection, allowing the spider access to the main tunnel, was likely to appear later.

Look at the description of the lair in the LOTR.

There was the main fairly straight tunnel (man-made undoubtedly) then at one place there was an opening in the left-hand (north) wall "far wider than any they had yet passed; and out of it came a reek so foul, and a sense of lurking malice"
Apart from these, there were many side openings from the Main tunnel, leading to accessory tunnels running parallel to the main way. These were made by orcs to avoid passing by Shelob's lair. These tunnels were too narrow for the spider.
Tolkien made a scetch of the lair that is published in one of HOME books (either 7 or 8 - I have no time to check it now).
I'm never any good at imagining these kind of things. Can you try and find a map on the internet somewhere, so it makes it easier to undestand.

[Gordis]

Are you reffering to the same great eagles, descendants of a maia, the "fearless", "noble-hearted", that saved the behind of almost every important character in the history of Arda? :)

Well some were maybe "noble-hearted" but: "Eagles are not kindly birds. Some are cowardly and cruel. - the Hobbit".
About them being "descendants of a maia", I admit I know nothing. A quote, please?
They may have saved the behind of Gandalf twice, and Beren and Luthien once, but then Thorondor and company made a poor job of guarding the approaches to Gondolin - a whole army arrived there without warning.
As for Sam and Frodo, the Eagles did nothing to help their mission, only saved their lives when the mission was complete. Never liked this part - it was quite unrealistic to survive the explosion.


"And by what curious chance did you get to know the the description of their eeries? And is your description worse than the bowels of hell, filled with the stench of foul creatures, a place in which the nazuls were most likely delighted to live in? If so... to each his own."
A predatory bird's eyrie stinks, that is a fact of life. And look at eagles kin - the FellBeasts! :p
As for the nazgul abode, you have full description in LOTR - it was an awesome place complete with flower-medows and statues.:D

Beasts of burden? Who would fail to notice the greatest birds of Middle-Earth? Fortunately, no one risked proposing such a feat at the council of Elrond; I wonder what Gandalf's words would have been ... :eek:

The Eagle COULD have brought Gandalf from Orthanc directly to the Shire. He would have been there before the nazgul. And could have taken Frodo and the Ring to Rivendell. And brought Frodo if not directly to Orodruin, then at least to somewhere closer to Mordor (Ithilien for instance). Of course, there would be no story.
But let us face it - in the Book, the Eagle taxi is present. ONLY it is somehow not available for those on the Quest. That doesn't command respect for the Eagles of Manwe.

On another forum Aule posted this link here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnUvw1rzziE&search=Star%20Wars%3A%20How%20it%20should%20have%2 0ended%20animated%20version) to a short video: "How the LOTR should have ended."
I found it hilarious.

[Tulkas]

1)
2) How does the Witch-King go from a horse when he enters Minas Tirith during the siedge, to a Fell beast a few minutes later when he fight Eowin?

i dont think he enters minas tirith on a horse, cause in the movie u see him confront gandalf on a Fell Beast and then he hears the horns of the Rohirrum(sp) and flys off hence he lands and takes down Theoden, and comne along Eowin.

[Gordis]

I'm never any good at imagining these kind of things. Can you try and find a map on the internet somewhere, so it makes it easier to undestand.

It was not easy, but here it is. It was published in HOME 8.
Shelob's lair (http://www.diar.ru/tolkien/pictures/maps/8/shelob1.jpg)
By the way, note that in the drawing North is down, South is up, so the map is upside-down in a way. Christopher commented on it.

i dont think he enters minas tirith on a horse, cause in the movie u see him confront gandalf on a Fell Beast and then he hears the horns of the Rohirrum(sp) and flys off hence he lands and takes down Theoden, and comne along Eowin.
And for that you have to thank Peter Jackson who butchered the best scene in the book! :(

[jammi567]

i dont think he enters minas tirith on a horse, cause in the movie u see him confront gandalf on a Fell Beast and then he hears the horns of the Rohirrum(sp) and flys off hence he lands and takes down Theoden, and comne along Eowin.
yeah, but we're talking about the book. And thanks for the link Gordis. Very helpful.