what about the vala?

[Tulkas]

i dont understand why they didnt just go right after morgoth after he got the silmarils and destroy him, HELL i dont know why they even let him out of prison in the first place. if you have answers please explain.

[jammi567]

To why they let him out of prision, that was because Manwe, not being evil himself, believed Morgoth truely had repented. But he had long gone down the path for not being able to repent. To yor first point, they didn't do anything because otherwise, they'd be messing with the plans of Eru, the One. Also because they didn't want another war with him, and distroy the world anymore then it already was.

[The last sane person]

Eru had some farked up plans then mate. Let all get buggered to a dismal wreck then watch as it all slowly sinks down hill, then later scrap it all and damn people to doom and despair?

Real shite for planning if ya ask me, I'd hate to work for that bugger.

[brownjenkins]

There seems to be a strong underpinning of fate in the evolution of Arda, so one could argue that Eru simply planned it that way.

Also, remember that the Valar were more inhabitants of Arda than caretakers. They did some caretaking, but it never seemed to be their prime objective, so to speak. More often, they just did their own thing, much like the Norse and Greek gods of those respective mythologys. They were not christian-esk angels whose sole purpose was guiding and protecting the children of Eru.

In many ways, I think that most of the Valar simply didn't want to deal with "the problem that was Melkor" until they were practically forced to take action.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

That's funny, cause Tolkien repeatedly calls the Maiar Angels, and the Valar Archangels... :p

[jammi567]

Eru had some farked up plans then mate. Let all get buggered to a dismal wreck then watch as it all slowly sinks down hill, then later scrap it all and damn people to doom and despair?

Real shite for planning if ya ask me, I'd hate to work for that bugger.
Ohhhh, please. Did you even read the 'Ainulindale'. Eru thought of the Valar, and then they sang songs that created the world, and the history of it. So you're telling me that that he didn't think and plan how Arda was going to be from the start? He'd be a pretty bad God in that case, wouldn't he.

[brownjenkins]

That's funny, cause Tolkien repeatedly calls the Maiar Angels, and the Valar Archangels... :p

His characterization of them changed greatly over the history of his writing. In Lost Tales, they were very much fallible Norse of Greek demigods. When reworking the Silmarillion, he tried to shift them towards a more angelic status, but without completely changing the storyline, he was stuck with certain aspects that he had to try to justify. Mainly, the Valar's inaction as far as Melkor and the majority of Arda was concerned.

They idea of the kind of non-interference directive you see by the time of LoTR worked out pretty well, but in the first age it is hard to reconcile the idea that 1) they claimed to not want to confront Melkor for fears of destruction to parts of Arda and 2) in the end, that's what they ended up doing anyway, destroying a large section of Arda.

[jammi567]

So are you saying that they had other, unexplained reasons for not wanting to confront Melkor earlier. Unless it was planned by the three songs they sang (see my last post).

[Tulkas]

Ohhhh, please. Did you even read the 'Ainulindale'. Eru thought of the Valar, and then they sang songs that created the world, and the history of it. So you're telling me that that he didn't think and plan how Arda was going to be from the start? He'd be a pretty bad God in that case, wouldn't he.
i dont think Eru planned for melkor to turn evil though and do the horrific things he did. Therefor the Vala and the Maiar should of gone after him to correct the error and Eru's plan.

[brownjenkins]

So are you saying that they had other, unexplained reasons for not wanting to confront Melkor earlier. Unless it was planned by the three songs they sang (see my last post).

Lost Tales covers Tolkien's original work on middle earth, written before the hobbit, lotr, and later drastically reworked as the silmarillion. These early valar were more like the early norse and greek gods, beings motivated mostly by their own self-interest, as opposed to beings that spent a lot of time guiding middle earth. They were more players involved within the history of middle earth, as opposed to guardians of Eru's plan.

Basically, they didn't confront him earlier because he was out of sight and out of mind, and they didn't really see it as their responsibility to put all the effort into taking him down.

As far as fate goes. It's a matter of interpretation. But when I read the following part of Ainulindale, it seems pretty clear to me the Melkor's part was very much intended by Eru:

Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: ‘Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’

Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger. But Iluvatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him.

But when they were come into the Void, Iluvatar said to them: ‘Behold your Music!’ And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Iluvatar said again: ‘Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.’

[jammi567]

i dont think Eru planned for melkor to turn evil though and do the horrific things he did. Therefor the Vala and the Maiar should of gone after him to correct the error and Eru's plan.
I like to think (unless it's stated in conon somewhere) that he gave Each of the Valar a different asspect of his mind, but to Melkor/Morgoth, he gave a lttle bit of everything. This made him prideful, and set in motion the events right upto the end of the third age (by which time, both Morgoth and Sauron had been banashed).

[brownjenkins]

I agree. He created a being that was too much like himself, and wanted to create for himself just as his "father" did.

[Leviathan]

Lets not forget what a formidable foe Melkor posed setting on his throne in the depths Thangordrim. The Valar finally had to cracked open Beleraind just to get him out.
It was the Noldor who named Morgoth their enemy, to the Valar he exhibited something much different being one of their own. Only Tulkas "the Muscle of of Westerness" could take him down. Surely for the most part the Valar were just happy to be rid of him, as he was far far away.
It does seem that they would take more interest in the Children of Iluvatar, after anticipating their arrival for so long. But the Valar were not shepards, more like elemental forces, the substance of Ea was theirs and of them but not the children. Each Valar had their own realm of governing, only a few (namely Mandos and Lorien) had any domain over men and elves, even then it was the realm of dreams and afterlife.

Imagine the Valar as a group of 7 year olds building with legos and that brat Melkor keeps kicking them over. The kids get fed up and go outside to build sand castles. Meanwhile back inside Melkor starts picking on the toddlers that just got dropped off at the day care. Is it the other kids job to stop him? Where is the babysitter?
"Iluvatar! Melkor's being bad again!"
hehehe

[jammi567]

Lets not forget what a formidable foe Melkor posed setting on his throne in the depths Thangordrim. The Valar finally had to cracked open Beleraind just to get him out.
It's the depths of Angband. Thangorodrim was the mountain protecting the entrence. And the didn't distroy the lands delibertly. It was because of all the fighting these giant beings did over a long period of time.
It was the Noldor who named Sauron their enemy, to the Valar he exhibited something much different being one of their own. Only Tulkas "the Muscle of of Westerness" could take him down. Surely for the most part the Valar were just happy to be rid of him, as he was far far away.
The Noldor named Morgoth the ememy, and Sauron was a lutnant/general to him. And they didn't interfear because they wanted togive the Nldor a chance to repent for the rebellion and the kinslaying. At the last possible moment, they came to the rescue, because of what i say below.
It does seem that they would take more interest in the Children of Iluvatar, after anticipating their arrival for so long. But the Valar were not shepards, more like elemental forces, the substance of Ea was theirs and of them but not the children. Each Valar had their own realm of governing, only a few (namely Mandos and Lorien) had any domain over men and elves, even then it was the realm of dreams and afterlife.
They were basically guardians of the world, and that meant protecting everything, elfs and men alike. But they didn't o anything in the First Age, because of what i said above.
Imagine the Valar as a group of 7 year olds building with legos and that brat Melkor keeps kicking them over. The kids get fed up and go outside to build sand castles. Meanwhile back inside Melkor starts picking on the toddlers that just got dropped off at the day care. Is it the other kids job to stop him? Where is the babysitter?
"Iluvatar! Melkor's being bad again!"
hehehe
:D, nice example.

[brownjenkins]

Imagine the Valar as a group of 7 year olds building with legos and that brat Melkor keeps kicking them over. The kids get fed up and go outside to build sand castles. Meanwhile back inside Melkor starts picking on the toddlers that just got dropped off at the day care. Is it the other kids job to stop him? Where is the babysitter?
"Iluvatar! Melkor's being bad again!"
hehehe

That about nails it. :D

[Leviathan]

Oops... I meant Melkor, I had Sauron on the brain and got ahead of myself typing. Didn't even realise it.

Wasn't Angband under Thangodrim? That's the way I alway took it. Like Angband was a city under Thangordrim. It doesn't really show on any maps that I know of, are the mountains are more like a fence?

[jammi567]

Yeah, they helped to protect him (not that he needed it).

[Leviathan]

The wars of the Valar sound amazing, could you imagine the force these guys must put out in battle, destroying half a continent and all. Forget Superman and the Hulk, give me Melkor and Orome any day :D

[jammi567]

Somehow, i can't see Melkor wearing blue tights, and flying around saving people. :D :p

[Leviathan]

Somehow, i can't see Melkor wearing blue tights, and flying around saving people. :D :p

I've never read anywhere in Tolkien's work that Melkor didn't wear tights. I always assumed he stole the patent spandex along with the other treasures of Feanor.

It was never Morgoth that I thought the Valar needed to deal with, it was the trees. Why didn't the take the Silmarils and relight the trees? It was in their power and their right, after the breaking of Angband. The light of the Silmarils was not Feanor's to claim, nor that of his sons, despite all oaths. Once the trees were rekindled the Silmarils might be replaced and Melkor could be dealt with by the light of the trees. The Silmarils returned to the sons of Feanor, oath fulfilled. It was said that no other could claim them but why not loan them out so that the Valar can. . . I dunno. . . save the world from darkness?

[jammi567]

By the time the Valar did something, one of the Silmarils was set to be in the sky as a guide. They took the other two from the crown of Morgoth, but we don't know what they were going to do with them. Thanks to Maglor and Meadhros stealing them 'back', one of them was thrown into a pit of fire (followed by the owner), the other was thrown into the sea (not followed by the owner). And unless the Valar broke the world (which would by very unpracticle, as well as messy), they wre lost forever.

[Landroval]

Therefor the Vala and the Maiar should of gone after him to correct the error and Eru's plan.
They actually did go after him, the soonest they found about what he did
I like to think (unless it's stated in conon somewhere) that he gave Each of the Valar a different asspect of his mind, but to Melkor/Morgoth, he gave a lttle bit of everything.
That's stated in the Ainulindale, indeed
And they didn't interfear because they wanted togive the Nldor a chance to repent for the rebellion and the kinslaying.
I disagree; the reason given in Myths Transformed, HoME X, is that a war with Melkor would have destroyed Arda.
At the last possible moment, they came to the rescue, because of what i say below.
That was actually the first possible moment; the statement appears in Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, iii, Myths Transformed - I don't have the books here, but its there.
Once the trees were rekindled the Silmarils might be replaced and Melkor could be dealt with by the light of the trees
In the Silmarillion, Feanor states that he can't make the Silmarils again, regardless the circumstances.

[jammi567]

They actually did go after him, the soonest they found about what he did

That's stated in the Ainulindale, indeed

I disagree; the reason given in Myths Transformed, HoME X, is that a war with Melkor would have destroyed Arda.

That was actually the first possible moment; the statement appears in Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, iii, Myths Transformed - I don't have the books here, but its there.

In the Silmarillion, Feanor states that he can't make the Silmarils again, regardless the circumstances.
Yo, Landroval. I haven't seen you on in ages. How you doing.

Well, yes, there was that detail as well. But these are the main two reasons, for them not doing anything sooner.

Unfortunatly, i've never read that bit. I can cope with it upto that discussion with Finrod and that woman, but after that, it just gets boring for me.

[Leviathan]

Of course Feanor can't remake them, namely because he's dead. I think it was within Aule's power though, not to remake them but to refresh them, if you will. All substance of earth, including the gems the Silmarils were crafted of, were under his rule and their properties were of him. I don't think the Silmarils could be destroyed so there would be no need to "remake" them

[jammi567]

They can only be made once, because they were fated to be made only once. I don't think even Aule kno what they were made of.

[Landroval]

Of course Feanor can't remake them, namely because he's dead.
Theoretically, all elves can be reimbodied, unless they did horrendous deeds and are unwilling to repent (I think Feanor failed on both accounts...); the rehousing is presumed in Feanor's case too, since he himself will break the Silmarils, according to the second prophecy of Mandos.
I don't think the Silmarils could be destroyed so there would be no need to "remake" them
Yavanna sure did fear that, according to Of the flight of the noldor, Silmarillion.

[The last sane person]

Ohhhh, please. Did you even read the 'Ainulindale'. Eru thought of the Valar, and then they sang songs that created the world, and the history of it. So you're telling me that that he didn't think and plan how Arda was going to be from the start? He'd be a pretty bad God in that case, wouldn't he.

I know, thats what I mean. He planned it all, the asshole! I was being sarcastic. I hate his planning.

[jammi567]

Theoretically, all elves can be reimbodied, unless they did horrendous deeds and are unwilling to repent (I think Feanor failed on both accounts...)
I think you mean he succeded here, not failed. :D

The last sane person. Why do you think Eru is an asshole for planning everything that's to happen in the future?

[Tulkas]

They actually did go after him, the soonest they found about what he did


yeah Orome and Tulkas went but they came back....i mean they should of kept persuing him untill they had him in bonds again, and more of the vala should of gone after him.

[Landroval]

That was beyond their means; Ungoliant was leading them astray with her unlight, and Melkor was soon within reach of his mighty balrog host. As stated in Myths Transformed, a war sooner than the war of wrath would have meant the phisical destruction of Arda
But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world. For this reason he had to be fought, mainly by physical force, and enormous material ruin was a probable consequence of any direct combat with him, victorious or otherwise. This is the chief explanation of the constant reluctance of the Valar to come into open battle against Morgoth... The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda. It is easy to say: 'It was the task and function of the Elder King to govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested.' But the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda.
...
The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision

[Tulkas]

ohhhhh ok i get it now, thank you.

[brownjenkins]

That was beyond their means; Ungoliant was leading them astray with her unlight, and Melkor was soon within reach of his mighty balrog host. As stated in Myths Transformed, a war sooner than the war of wrath would have meant the phisical destruction of Arda

I don't see how that quote address the issue of why it would have been worse for the Valar to have attacked Melkor sooner. Maybe it is something you did not include. What was the reason given as to why the timing for the War of Wrath was so precise?

[jammi567]

Because Morgoth was getting out of hand, and they had to stop him, overwise, the whole of middle earth would be distroyed.

[Landroval]

I don't see how that quote address the issue of why it would have been worse for the Valar to have attacked Melkor sooner. Maybe it is something you did not include. What was the reason given as to why the timing for the War of Wrath was so precise?
Here is the explanation for the previous statements (same source):
Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism.
...
It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwe and Namo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body.

[brownjenkins]

Interesting. I haven't read HoME for a while, so will have to revisit that part.

It begs the question as to the necessity of Eärendil's voyage. Would the Valar have felt compelled to defeat Melkor if the voyage had failed, since Melkor would have more or less hit this weak state anyway, or could they have moved a bit earlier like right after the one Silmaril was taken?

Plus, it would seem to me that Melkor would have lost much more power over Arda during the thousands of years of his imprisonment than the 500ish years of the wars in Beleriand. It was my understanding that his dissemination of power occured very early on, and that his initial capture was after this. A capture which did not in fact destroy Arda.

I guess I'm trying to understand what changed between the initial capture of Melkor and the time shortly after his release that would have stopped the Valar from mounting an attack immediately, before even the elves had re-entered middle earth.

[Valtir]

It is said a couple of times that Morgoth got weaker as the ages went on since he invested his own power in his monsters and minions and mayhaps all of creation.

Perhaps the Vala knew this and preferred to wait. Also, perhaps the Vala too were weakened through time, and did not think they could pull it off.

Ultimately, however, they're following orders of Eru through Manwe, so we must assume Eru wanted Melkor free and dangerous, at least for a time.

[jammi567]

yeah, because a) the more you invest your soul into something, the weaker you become (sauron anyone), b) melkor was a necessity to the history of the world, and c) the valar are punishing the elves for their disobayance.

[Maedhros]

From Ósanwe-kenta
If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwe, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.
How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.
Manwe could not by duress attempt to compel Melkor to reveal his thought and purposes, or (if he used words) to speak the truth. If he spoke and said: this is true, he must be believed until proved false; if he said: this I will do, as you bid, he must be allowed the opportunity to fulfill his promise. (Note 8)
The force and restraint that were used upon Melkor by the united power of all the Valar, were not used to extort confession (which was needless); nor to compel him to reveal his thought (which was unlawful, even if not vain). He was made captive as a punishment for his evil deeds, under the authority of the King. So we may say; but it were better said that he was deprived for a term, fixed by promise, of his power to act, so that he might halt and consider himself, and have thus the only chance that mercy could contrive of repentance and amendment. For the healing of Arda indeed, but for his own healing also. Melkor had the right to exist, and the right to act and use his powers. Manwe had the authority to rule and to order the world, so far as he could, for the well-being of the EruhÃ*ni; but if Melkor would repent and return to the allegiance of Eru, he must be given his freedom again. He could not be enslaved, or denied his part. The office of the Elder King was to retain all his subjects in the allegiance of Eru, or to bring them back to it, and in that allegiance to leave them free.
Therefore not until the last, and not then except by the express command of Eru and by His power, was Melkor thrown utterly down and deprived for ever of all power to do or to undo.
Who among the Eldar hold that the captivity of Melkor in Mandos (which was achieved by force) was either unwise or unlawful? Yet the resolve to assault Melkor, not merely to withstand him, to meet violence with wrath to the peril of Arda, was taken by Manwe only with reluctance. And consider: what good in this case did even the lawful use of force accomplish? It removed him for a while and relieved Middle-earth from the pressure of his malice, but it did not uproot his evil, for it could not do so. Unless, maybe, Melkor had indeed repented. (Note 9) But he did not repent, and in humiliation he became more obdurate: more subtle in his deceits, more cunning in his lies, crueller and more dastardly in his revenge. The weakest and most imprudent of all the actions of Manwe, as it seems to many, was the release of Melkor from captivity. From this came the greatest loss and harm: the death of the Trees, and the exile and the anguish of the Noldor. Yet through this suffering there came also, as maybe in no other way could it have come, the victory of the Elder Days: the downfall of Angband and the last overthrow of Melkor.
Who then can say with assurance that if Melkor had been held in bond less evil would have followed? Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation. Yet some ruinous outburst of his despair is not the worst that might have befallen. The release was according to the promise of Manwe. If Manwe had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor. That is a perilous step. In that hour and act he would have ceased to be the vice-gerent of the One, becoming but a king who takes advantage over a rival whom he has conquered by force. Would we then have the sorrows that indeed befell; or would we have the Elder King lose his honour, and so pass, maybe, to a world rent between two proud lords striving for the throne? Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough.

[Alcuin]

Morgoth’s “weakness� was based upon his attempt to control all Arda by inserting or investing some of himself into everything in it. His will was expended by seeking to control and dominate the wills of others. His strength was spent in overpowering and enslaving others. Even in his weakness, he was greater than all of the Children of Ilúvatar, and he was greater than the Maiar. His feet were cut from under him, he was wrestled again by Tulkas, bound by the chain Angainor, and cast from Eä wherein was set the Flame Imperishable into the Outer Darkness where the Flame Imperishable came not.

It is not that you invest your being into something that you become weaker, particularly if that requires you to grow into becoming a better person! Sauron did not become weaker because he invested nearly all his native power into the One Ring: that made him stronger, because he could then use the powers of the other Ring Bearers; that is why the Eldar of Eregion took theirs off when they became aware of Sauron and his spell. Eventually, however, Sauron was separated from him Ruling Ring, and was thus diminished both by its absence and by the means by which he was deprived of it: it required centuries to take form again. He was not utterly destroyed because his native power was in the Ring, and it still existed; but he was not as strong as he had been and hoped again to be because the Ring was not in his possession. His fear was that one of the Wise would seize the Ring; and Gandalf and Aragorn used that fear – a paranoia, perhaps – to misguide him into “setting a surprise trap� (some surprise trap! They knew they were walking into a deadly trap) and turning all his attention on them. When the Ring was destroyed, all his power that he had invested in the Ring, along with all the power he had stolen through the other Rings of Power, was suddenly dissipated and undone: what was left of him was a mere shadow of malice, unable ever again to take shape.

To say that the Valar were punishing the Elves is not an accurate assessment of the situation, either. The Valar were stating what should have been obvious: We, The Valar, will go after Morgoth at a proper time, and you can accompany us then. If you go now, in anger and pride and vengeance, you will achieve nothing but your own deaths and destruction; and moreover, you have without cause murdered your own kinsfolk in your arrogant insolence and lust, and for this, a terrible price must be paid. It is not the right time, and you are not now the right leaders, though later you may be if you will stay and prepare.

It is akin to a parent saying to a child, “Do not put your hands on the stove: it is hot, it will burn you.� We told our nephew this over and over and over and over – it was interminable! One evening I heard a piercing yowl of pain, rushed into the kitchen, and found a mother and a grandmother and an aunt all frantic with ice and burn cream and a sobbing little boy who from time to time burst forth with new cries. After a trip to the hospital, he told everyone he was sorry, he was so sorry – and so were we. To him it seemed a punishment for disobedience, not the natural and unavoidable outcome of putting his hand on a hot burner of the stove. He did heal completely, and he does keep his hands from the stove, but what a hard and painful lesson him to learn, and so hard for all of us to watch him learn. Would Eru feel any differently for any one of his Children - could He?

Evil comes from refusing to do what is good. It is not a thing of itself, but takes is being from the negation of a thing. Evil has consequences: just as if you improperly build or maintain a bridge, it will collapse, as did this bridge in Montreal (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,216926,00.html) last week, so if you improperly or unjustly lead your life, your life will come apart.

When Melkor used his one chance to do good, to do what was right, and to obey the laws and edicts of Eru, he responded by inducing another creature of evil intent to help him kill the two trees hide their escape steal the Silmarils whereupon he dumped his sidekick proclaimed himself King of Arda, made war upon the First Kindred in Beleriand, misled the Second Kindred into rejected Eru and worshipping him, and purposefully and deliberately and with malice aforethought do everything within his vast and amazing power to debase, debilitate, deface, dishonor, diminish and destroy the Children of Eru and the works of others.That takes putting your hand on the stove either accidentally or because you want to see if NaNa is really telling you the truth when she says that “the stovetop will burn you� to a whole new level – several levels and many magnitudes greater.

Eru did not make Melkor to do all these evil things that he did. By that I mean Eru did not make Melkor with the intent or the purpose of committing evil, nor did Eru cause Melkor to commit evil: Melkor was inventive in his own right, inventiveness being a great gift of Eru to him, and he abused that gift by concocting schemes and plans and actions that he knew were hurtful to Eru who made him and loved him. Is this crazy? Yes, it is. Do we, each and every one of use, see it every day at home in dealings between parents and children, at work between coworkers and between managers and employees, at church among clergy and at church between clergy and laity, in social settings of every kind between one faction and another? Does that make it right? No! The nature of evil is to make enemies of those who should be friends, to deal out early death, to maim bodies and break hearts and rot souls. It is a disease, not one created by the Creator, but invented in all its rotten, dark-hearted, vile and hateful forms by those who have rebelled and continue to rebel against their Creator. Did Eru know what would happen? Yes, he did. Should he deprive the good of what they might have so that the evil might be avoided? Or should he deprive the evil of all possibility of action before anything has taken place? Are any of us perfectly good? So could any of us be alive if every evil action is blocked or its actor unmade?

Besides, “freedom� is not “True Freedom� unless you have also the right and capacity to screw up, to make mistakes, even if they are deliberate mistakes that might hurt others. There are consequences for such decisions and actions, certainly; but the hurt and damage are not all undone. Evil can arise because some abuse their Freedom. If this frightens you, your only alternative is to willingly enslave yourself to something or someone, and let that other make for you every decision in life; but even then, you may be hurt or killed by one who has not renounced his Freedom but has misused it. If you would be Free, then you must take the chance that by your choices you will make mistakes; and if you would not have slaves, then you must grant to those about you those same choices and that same chance.

Nothing is evil in its beginning. Even Sauron was not so. So said Gandalf, and he was there. But primordial evil is spread throughout all Arda through expenditure by Morgoth of his strength and will, in every little bit and piece of it. Athrabeth, a wise-woman of the First House of the Edain, told Finrod that some Men clung to the Old Hope: that Eru Himself would enter Arda and correct the problems and cure the disease. Finrod (whose brother Aegnor loved Athrabeth, and she loved him) asked her how this could be, but she did not know. But to fight evil is a requirement of being good: and so Finrod went to join Aegnor in the Dorthonion marches to fight evil.

Morgoth attempted to enslave all Arda. He expended his strength and will in overwhelming the strengths and wills of others. Eru gave him Freedom, which he abused outrageously; but Eru also knew precisely when the Host of the West should hit Morgoth and stop his nefarious rule. Manwë listened, he obeyed, Morgoth was overcome. The Children of Elves and Men were forged together like two metals alloyed by a mighty smith, and the stage was set for the arising of the Dún-Edain and the bliss and glory of Númenor.

[brownjenkins]

Therefore not until the last, and not then except by the express command of Eru and by His power, was Melkor thrown utterly down and deprived for ever of all power to do or to undo.

So it was Eru, not the Valar, who choose when to act against Melkor.

[jammi567]

Wow! *stares blanky at post* ummmmm, can someone summerize those two posts in to easy to read chunks of text

[brownjenkins]

Eru did not make Melkor to do all these evil things that he did. By that I mean Eru did not make Melkor with the intent or the purpose of committing evil, nor did Eru cause Melkor to commit evil: Melkor was inventive in his own right, inventiveness being a great gift of Eru to him, and he abused that gift by concocting schemes and plans and actions that he knew were hurtful to Eru who made him and loved him. Is this crazy? Yes, it is. Do we, each and every one of use, see it every day at home in dealings between parents and children, at work between coworkers and between managers and employees, at church among clergy and at church between clergy and laity, in social settings of every kind between one faction and another? Does that make it right? No! The nature of evil is to make enemies of those who should be friends, to deal out early death, to maim bodies and break hearts and rot souls. It is a disease, not one created by the Creator, but invented in all its rotten, dark-hearted, vile and hateful forms by those who have rebelled and continue to rebel against their Creator. Did Eru know what would happen? Yes, he did. Should he deprive the good of what they might have so that the evil might be avoided? Or should he deprive the evil of all possibility of action before anything has taken place? Are any of us perfectly good? So could any of us be alive if every evil action is blocked or its actor unmade?

I understand this interpretation, and agree that it is probably pretty close to how Tolkien eventually envisioned his universe, though its earlier incarnations were a bit more norse-like, the valar being more willful and independant entities that the christian-esk angels they latter became.

However, my problem with this mentality is the lack of guidance on Eru's part. In Melkor he created a being most like himself with all the freedoms, powers, curiousities, etc.; yet he did not seem to take much role in guiding his child other than a purely authoritarian one. This works fine with a lesser being like Manwe, but when you create a near equal, you must treat him as such.

It's like the difference between telling your child what to do and what not to do "because you said so" or actually clueing him or her in on the realities of life, the big plan, and letting them find their way to the proper choices on their own.

Melkor wanted to be an active part in his father's creation, and he was disappointed when his own creations were frowned upon. Thus, it became an antagonistic relationship. Basically, Eru did not allow Melkor to use his gifts to their fullest with him, so Melkor ended up using them against him.

[Wayfarer]

Melkor wanted to be an active part in his father's creation, and he was disappointed when his own creations were frowned upon. Thus, it became an antagonistic relationship. Basically, Eru did not allow Melkor to use his gifts to their fullest with him, so Melkor ended up using them against him.

This presumes that the part which Eru set out for Melkor to play, and which Melkor rejected, did not use Melkor's abilities to the fullest and best they could be.

I reject that presumption out of hand. In fact, I would assert quite the contrary, the Eru, as creator, knew the precise measure of of his creation and set out a path which would have used those abilities to the utmost. An unfallen Melkor would be greater, by far, than the weak and twisted pitiable thing which he would become.

The lesson is this: not that Melkor lacked guidance, but that he possessed it in abundance. Eru laid out a divine plan which was best, which was perfect, if only he would have followed it. Melkor still fell; undeniably, inexcusably, unrepentantly, as a result of his own choice and nothing else.

That is the long and short of it, the essential nature of the tragedy, that Melkor might have chosen differently but he did not, that he could have repented and been redeemed but he was not, and that all things may have been otherwise, if not for a single creation who made a choice.

[brownjenkins]

This presumes that the part which Eru set out for Melkor to play, and which Melkor rejected, did not use Melkor's abilities to the fullest and best they could be.

I reject that presumption out of hand. In fact, I would assert quite the contrary, the Eru, as creator, knew the precise measure of of his creation and set out a path which would have used those abilities to the utmost. An unfallen Melkor would be greater, by far, than the weak and twisted pitiable thing which he would become.

The lesson is this: not that Melkor lacked guidance, but that he possessed it in abundance. Eru laid out a divine plan which was best, which was perfect, if only he would have followed it. Melkor still fell; undeniably, inexcusably, unrepentantly, as a result of his own choice and nothing else.

That is the long and short of it, the essential nature of the tragedy, that Melkor might have chosen differently but he did not, that he could have repented and been redeemed but he was not, and that all things may have been otherwise, if not for a single creation who made a choice.

Where in Ainulindale does Eru layout a part for anyone to play before the music? In fact, it even says that it seemed to Melkor before the music that Eru took no thought for the void. So obviously nothing was discussed before hand.

And afterwords Eru says:

Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: ‘Mighty are the Ainur,
and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know,
and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye
have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye
have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may
be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can
any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth
this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things
more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’

and later:

And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were
silent, Iluvatar said again: ‘Behold your Music! This is your
minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid
the design that I set before you, all those things which it may
seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor,
wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt
perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary
to its glory.’

I don't think a "perfect" world was ever Eru's goal at all.

[Rían]

Melkor wanted to be an active part in his father's creation, and he was disappointed when his own creations were frowned upon. Thus, it became an antagonistic relationship. Basically, Eru did not allow Melkor to use his gifts to their fullest with him, so Melkor ended up using them against him.But compare this with Aulë and his creation (the Dwarves), and how the relationship with Eru was not destroyed. I just don't buy the totally innocent Melkor idea, esp. given his later actions.

[brownjenkins]

But compare this with Aulë and his creation (the Dwarves), and how the relationship with Eru was not destroyed. I just don't buy the totally innocent Melkor idea, esp. given his later actions.

I'm not saying he was totally innocent, just that Melkor, exactly as he turned out, was part of the plan.

[Wayfarer]

But if it was all part of the plan, then Melkor did not have a choice in the matter - he was created to rebel, and thus relieved of any moral responsibility. That is clearly not the case in Tolkien's paradigm.

The very nature of free will necessitates the possibility that Melkor, if created, might rebel and turn to evil, and that, when offered a chance at salvation, he might reject it and continue to rebel. It isn't the case that he must rebel - the idea of evil cannot exist without free will, and free will cannot exist without choice.

This is why you see Manwe and the others releasing Morgoth after the agreed-upon amount of time. Because he could have sincerely repented and returned to his rightful place - he did not, but that was his choice to make, and it was not their place to take it from him.

[Rían]

I don't think a "perfect" world was ever Eru's goal at all.
Any time you allow free will into the equation, you allow for the possibility of a non-perfect world, so I guess I'd say it was a desire-goal but not a goal that Eru thought would happen. But I imagine he thought the good was worth the price of the potential grief, esp. since he could step in to help whenever he wanted. I think love is a more important goal than comfort.

[Valtir]

I like to think that the world is perfect as it is, warts and all.

To think otherwise is to accuse Eru, or, The One, of imperfection, which does not seem possible within the scheme of things.

[jammi567]

I like to think that the world is perfect as it is, warts and all.

To think otherwise is to accuse Eru, or, The One, of imperfection, which does not seem possible within the scheme of things.
why can't Eru be a little inperfect? i think that if he was inperfect, that the story would be more realistic. And it would help to explain why none of his creatures (valar, maiar etc) are perfect, if they came from a inperfect mind.

[Valtir]

why can't Eru be a little inperfect? i think that if he was inperfect, that the story would be more realistic. And it would help to explain why none of his creatures (valar, maiar etc) are perfect, if they came from a inperfect mind.

I don't think it's possible for Eru to be imperfect. He's The One -- all. How can "all" be imperfect, since to state something is imperfect means you can compare it to something that is more... perfect?

Semantical arguement, perhaps, but if there is only One, than that is perfection, since there is no other.

[jammi567]

What i meant was: how can anyone be absalotly perfect? i mean, that's impossible.

[Valtir]

What i meant was: how can anyone be absalotly perfect? i mean, that's impossible.

How is it impossible to the entity who created everything?

[jammi567]

i couldn't care less whether he created everything, he's still imperfect in his own way.

[brownjenkins]

But if it was all part of the plan, then Melkor did not have a choice in the matter - he was created to rebel, and thus relieved of any moral responsibility.

Exactly.

That is clearly not the case in Tolkien's paradigm.

No matter what Tolkien's intention was, it is very hard to read it any other way. Unless you assume that Eru was so clueless that it didn't even cross his mind that Melkor would rebel, rebel so strongly, and continue to rebel and cause rebellion long after his removal from Arda.

Other writings have even pointed to Dagor Dagorath being foretold by Mandos, who must have remembered it from the music. If Eru didn't know Melkor's ultimate fate, why include a last battle in the music?

The very nature of free will necessitates the possibility that Melkor, if created, might rebel and turn to evil, and that, when offered a chance at salvation, he might reject it and continue to rebel. It isn't the case that he must rebel - the idea of evil cannot exist without free will, and free will cannot exist without choice.

This is the accepted idea behind good and evil, but when you throw an omnipotent creator into the mix and add in prophecy, it simply doesn't pan out. There is no "might" from the creator's point of view.

At best, the creator knows his creation will turn evil and lets it happen; there is free will, but the creator knows how that free will will be exercised and the creator chooses to let it exist in his creation.

At worst, the creator actually intends to have evil as part of the picture; there is no true free will, only the perception of it because no one but the creator sees the big picture.