Chapter VIII and IX: The Scouring of the Shire and The Grey Havens

[Nurvingiel]

Part I - Overview and Summary of The Scouring of the Shire

Overview

In the last two chapters of The Lord of the Rings, we are treated to a surprise. The two chapters are a nearly a stand-alone story in themselves, with the action building to a climatic finish “The Scouring of the Shire”, and being resolved in “The Grey Havens”.

The final two chapters of The Lord of the Rings chronicle events that take place in the Shire, and are entirely resolved by Hobbits. These chapters allow us to truly appreciate the consequences and changes wrought by the Hobbits’ adventures, and brings the focus of the books back to their original subject: the adventures of Hobbits of the Shire overcoming the One Ring of Sauron.


The Scouring of the Shire

The Scouring returns us to the adventures of the four Hobbits, the original members of the Fellowship, who come to be known throughout the Shire as the Travelers.

They arrive at the Shire to find that no one is allowed in after dark. While they have no trouble getting inside anyway, they are concerned to find a great deal of rules have been made by a mysterious Chief, about food, beer, smoking, campfires, lodging, and many other things Hobbits regularly enjoy.

The Travelers proceed to break a number of these rules by making a nice fire, sharing their rations with the guards, and spending the night in the gatehouse.

Bill Ferny is among the gatekeepers. Merry tells him to give him the gate key, which he throws at Merry’s head as he runs off. But Bill (the pony) has the last word, letting fly a hoof that sends Bill (the ruffian) into the ditch.

The next day, they head straight for Hobbiton, but are waylaid by Shirrifs at Frogmorton. They are “arrested” for their bout of rule-breaking the previous night. Sam helpfully expands the chief Shirrif’s list of charges:

“I can add some more if you’d like it,” said Sam. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to punch his Pimply face, and Thinking you Shirrifs look a lot of Tom-fools.” (p. 247)

Sam questions Robin Smallburrow, one of the Shirrifs and an acquaintance of Sam’s, about the closure of the inn the Floating Log. Robin tells him that all the Shire’s inns are closed, as the Chief’s ruffians keep all the beer for themselves. Robin, the first to do so to the Travelers, suggests that there could be an uprising against the ruffians.

“If I hear not allowed much oftener,” said Sam, “I am going to get angry.”
“Can’t say as I’d be sorry to see it,” said Robin, lowering his voice. “If we all got angry together, something might be done.” (p. 248)

The footsore Shirrifs are eventually forced to allow the mounted Travelers to ride on.

At Bywater, Frodo and Sam are deeply shocked and saddened to find their own country so changed. Many houses they knew are gone, ugly houses replace trees, and a polluting smokestack rises in the distance.

The Green Dragon is closed, and surrounded by ruffians who, as Merry observes, have the look of the men of Isengard. From the ruffians, they learn that it is not Lotto but “Sharkey” who is the real Chief at Bag End.

Pippin, backed up by Merry and Sam, scares the ruffians away, who retreat blowing horns of warning. The Travelers raise Bywater, gathering stout lads from the area, armed with various farm implements, and they go to Farmer Cotton’s to make plans.

Pippin leaves to gather an army of Tooks, and those who remain prepare to meet any retaliatory bands of ruffians. They lay an ambush on the road, and soon a band of thugs is marching towards them. Due to their arrogance, the ruffian’s leader is slain and only a few escape imprisonment.

Merry realises the escaped ruffians will warn their fellows, who will surely bring a proper army. The Hobbits set watches around the village and prepare for battle.

Sam leaves to bring his Gaffer to the Cottons, and Farmer Cotton updates the Travelers on what has been happening in the Shire. He also knows the positioning of the ruffians well, and estimates that their reinforcements would have to come from Waymeet, fifteen miles each direction.

Pippin returns with the Tooks, and Merry sets another trap for the ruffians who are burning the countryside as they march toward Bywater. This group is larger, and serious about crushing the rebellion, but they nevertheless do not fail to walk straight in to Merry’s trap.

Some thugs try to escape the barriers, and the Battle of Bywater begins. The ruffians are soundly defeated but nineteen hobbits are slain. Frodo’s chief part in the battle was to prevent hobbits from killing opponents who have surrendered. After resting, the Travelers with their army go to Bag End to deal with the Chief.

Bag End is in complete disrepair, and a very sad sight to Frodo and Sam. They search for Lotho, only to be greeted by Saruman, who they realise is Sharkey.

Saruman is quite bitter about the loss of Isengard, and has obviously forgotten about his own part in his home’s destruction. He came to the Shire to repay the Hobbits for his loss.

Realising he is the mysterious Chief, the Hobbit army wants to kill Saruman on the spot. Saruman cows them with his Voice, and the Hobbits recoil, but Frodo is undaunted. Still, he does not want Saruman slain, and tells him instead to leave the Shire immediately.

He calls Wormtongue and turns to leave, but as he passes Frodo, he tries to stab him! Frodo’s mithril coat turns Saruman’s dagger, and Sam and a dozen hobbits throw him to the ground. Frodo will still not let the angry hobbits kill their former oppressor.

“No Sam!” said Frodo. “Do not kill him even now. For he has not hurt me. And in any case I do not wish him to be slain in this evil mood. He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him in the hope that he might find it.” (p.263-4)

Saruman is bitter at Frodo’s mercy, and prepares to leave with Wormtongue. Frodo offers Wormtongue the chance to say, and Saruman laughs. Wormtongue, he says, has murdered Lotho. He kicks Wormtongue and tells him to follow, but Wormtongue leaps on him and cuts Saruman’s throat before anyone can stop him. He is shot by the Hobbits as he tries to escape.

Saruman’s body ages rapidly and disintegrates into smoke.

Frodo is never thought the final battle would be on his own doorstep.

[Nurvingiel]

Part II: Summary of The Grey Havens, Questions, and Discussion Points

The Grey Havens

The Hobbits return the Shire to rights, freeing those imprisoned in the Lockholes (including Fredegar Bolger and Lobelia Sackville-Baggins), and reinstating Will Whitfoot as Mayor. They tear down the new, ugly buildings and use the bricks to repair damaged Hobbit holes. They restore the old mill and anything else ruined or damaged during Saruman’s occupation.

The year 1420 is incredibly bountiful in crops, weather, weddings, and Hobbit-children, as well as high-quality batches of ale.

The many trees hewn by Saruman’s thugs are the hardest feature of the Shire to restore. Sam takes charge of the necessary forestry work, planting trees all across the Shire. He places one grain of the fine, grey, soil from Lady Galadriel’s gift at the base of each seedling, causing them to grow twenty times the normal rate!

Sam plants the strange seed where the Party Tree once stood; the following spring in germinates into a beautiful mallorn tree, the only one West of the Misty Mountains. This marks the completion of the restoration efforts in the Shire, only a few years after Saruman’s occupation.

Frodo’s injuries, of knife, sting, and tooth, are taking their toll on his health. He never complains, but over the years, Sam notices Frodo is very ill certain times of the year, and he often fingers (if you’ll excuse Professor Tolkien’s pun) the white jewel that Arwen gave him.

Sam marries Rose Cotton, and Frodo invites them to move into Bag End with him.
Frodo Finishes the Red Book, leaving the last few pages for Sam. On September 21st, Sam and Frodo set out for a journey together. They are met on the way by Gildor, Elrond, Galadriel, Bilbo, and many Elves.

They ride toward the Grey Havens, and Sam is saddened the Frodo will not be able to enjoy the Shire himself.

He comforts Sam, saying, “You will be Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone, so that people will remember the Great Danger and so love their beloved land all the more.” (p. 273)

Círdan leads them to the Havens, where they meet Gandalf, with Merry and Pippin.

At their parting, Gandalf says, “Go in Peace! I will not say: do not weep, for not all tears are an evil.” (p.274)

The departure of the Ringbearers and many Elves from Middle-earth marks the end of the Third Age.

Sam, Merry, and Pippin return to the Shire. Sam returns home to Bag End, and Rose greets him and puts his daughter Elanor in his lap. Sam says famously to Rose, “Well, I’m back.”


Questions:

1. Why are the Hobbits taking orders from the Chief when they don’t even know who that person is?

2. Which scene is your favourite in these chapters, and why? Which is the most poignant? The funniest?

3. If another chapter followed The Grey Havens, what would you like it to be about?

4. Why is it Merry, and not Frodo, Sam, or Pippin, who takes charge of military affairs?

5. What do you think Rosie Cotton is like? What do you think the relationship between her and Sam is like?


Discussion Points:

1. Pippin says to Fatty Bolger, after he is released from the Lockholes, that he “would have done better to come with us after all, poor old Fredegar!” Would he have? And how would this have affected the Fellowship?

2. There are hints at the Hobbit class system in these chapters. (eg. Rise of fame and fortune of the Cottons after the Battle of Bywater.) Did this make them more susceptible to Saruman’s occupation?

3. Could any other hobbit or hobbits have raised the Shire against Saruman?

4. Frodo and Saruman have much in common, and yet are completely opposite. Discuss this character foil.

5. What would have happened had Gandalf stayed with the hobbits? What would have been the consequences?

6. “Well, I’m back.” Discuss the awesomeness that is this ending.

Feel free, of course, to discuss any aspect of these two chapters that comes to mind.

Have a seat by the fire with a mug of proper 1420 ale, and discuss the final chapters of the Red Book!

EDIT:

Extra discussion points:

7. What message, if any, was Tolkien trying to send with the imagery of Saruman's occupation? A new, larger mill replaced the old mill, and fouled the water of the pool below. The old mill was rebuilt in the restoration. Saruman's thugs cut trees down and let them lie. They build ugly houses and sheds of brick.

8. Discuss the technology used in Galadriel's gift - the soil that allowed one grain to increase the trees' growth rate to twenty times the natural rate. This seems to be one of the few technologies Tolkien approves of.

9. "The fruit was so plentiful that young hobbits very nearly bathed in strawberries and cream; and later they sat on the lawns under the plum trees and ate, until they had made piles of stones like small pyramids or the heaped skulls of a conqueror, and then they moved on." (p. 268)

Plum pits described as pyramids or heaped skulls seems very out of place from the rest of the chapter. Discuss.

EDIT 2

Special thanks to Jammi567, who would have done this chapter (brilliantly, I'm sure), had I not finally finished it. Thanks for letting me keep it Jammi! :)

EDIT 3

Eärniel pointed out that Lady Galadriel did not give Frodo the white jewel, Arwen did at Minis Tirith.

[mithrand1r]

I think you did well in your summary of these chapters. I enjoyed it much. :)

Part II: Summary of The Grey Havens, Questions, and Discussion Points
. . .

Questions:

1. Why are the Hobbits taking orders from the Chief when they don’t even know who that person is?

Who knows exactly why. How many people today do things when they do not even know the exact reason why?

A factory worker may be ask to connect to wires on a board and not know why. If they are getting paid they may not care why.

How many times have people done nothing but accept a situation? They could have stopped it if they stood up and said/did something about the situation.

How many people know who actually "runs" their town. As long as their live is not affected too much, most people do not care. In the Shire, I think, most of the inhabitants did not do much at first, since it did not affect their lives too much. By the time their lives were affected much, it became more difficult to stop the tide of changes.

2. Which scene is your favourite in these chapters, and why? Which is the most poignant? The funniest?
The most poignant (that I remember) is the mercy of Frodo to Saruman and the change of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins (LSB).

Frodo really appears to have grown in stature and wisdom. Saruman even recognizes it, yet Saruman chooses to remain bitter and not change. (Although perhaps with time, he may have realized his folly and changed.)

LSB becomes more humane and less pitty after her ordeal and the loss that she has suffered. (Too bad that some people need to go through an ordeal before they realize the need to change.)


3. If another chapter followed The Grey Havens, what would you like it to be about?
Some information about life in the Shire and the World around ME.

4. Why is it Merry, and not Frodo, Sam, or Pippin, who takes charge of military affairs?

Merry drew the short straw. ;)

5. What do you think Rosie Cotton is like? What do you think the relationship between her and Sam is like?

About 5' 10", emerald eyes, bond hair, . . . ;) :p

I think that Rosie is similar to Sam in personality, but in some ways she is more practical. She undertands that there are some things that Sam needs to do, but he would not do them without her support. Sam would not have left Rosie (temporarily), unless he knew that she wanted him to go do what had to be done.

3. Could any other hobbit or hobbits have raised the Shire against Saruman? Apparently not. It seems that the hobbits needed a leader to motivate them for a common cause. There seemed to be many hobbits that did not like what was happening to them, yet they did not organize to put a stop to Sharkey&Company.


5. What would have happened had Gandalf stayed with the hobbits? What would have been the consequences?
The Hobbits would have turned to Gandalf to save their bacon. They would not have realized the inner strength that they possess to deal with problems on their own.

6. “Well, I’m back.” Discuss the awesomeness that is this ending.
It is a simple yet elegent ending. It leaves me wanting the story to continue, yet I know that the story has come to an end.

Feel free, of course, to discuss any aspect of these two chapters that comes to mind.

Have a seat by the fire with a mug of proper 1420 ale, and discuss the final chapters of the Red Book!

A great reccommendation. 1420 ale was a great year for ale. :D

[Nurvingiel]

I think you did well in your summary of these chapters. I enjoyed it much. :)Thank you so much Mithrand1r! :)


How many times have people done nothing but accept a situation? They could have stopped it if they stood up and said/did something about the situation.

How many people know who actually "runs" their town. As long as their live is not affected too much, most people do not care. In the Shire, I think, most of the inhabitants did not do much at first, since it did not affect their lives too much. By the time their lives were affected much, it became more difficult to stop the tide of changes.I think your assessment here is right on.

We know who run our towns now, (Sam Sullivan = Vancouver, Terry Lake = Kamloops), but that's because we voted for them (or their opponents). Even people who don't vote will see the newspaper headline.

The problem for the hobbits is even though they elect their mayors, most hobbits aren't as well-informed as Farmer Cotton. Even Cotton knows absolutely nothing about what goes on outside the Shire. Indeed, after the battle the four Travelers are relaxing in the Cottons' kitchen, and they ask a few polite questions about their adventures, but don't really listen to the answers as they are much more concerned with affairs in the Shire. However, Sharkey and his thugs came from outside the Shire.

I think the hobbits are very complacent, and like you said, once the situation got bad enough for folks like Robin Smallburrow and Farmer Cotton, the ruffians were in complete control of the Shire.

The most poignant (that I remember) is the mercy of Frodo to Saruman and the change of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins (LSB).

Frodo really appears to have grown in stature and wisdom. Saruman even recognizes it, yet Saruman chooses to remain bitter and not change. (Although perhaps with time, he may have realized his folly and changed.)I agree, the exchange between Frodo and Saruman is very moving. I wonder why Saruman called him cruel though. Frodo is the least cruel being in all of Arda!

LSB becomes more humane and less pitty after her ordeal and the loss that she has suffered. (Too bad that some people need to go through an ordeal before they realize the need to change.)I forgot to put that part in the summary. When Lobelia passes away, Frodo discovers she left all of her and Lotho's money to help hobbits left homeless by the occupation. This ends the feud between the Bagginses and the Sackville-Baginses, that began at the end of The Hobbit.

Some information about life in the Shire and the World around ME.I thought you meant "... and the World around ME," as in you, Mithrandir. Hee. :D

I would like to read about Merry and Pippin's journeys to Rohan and Gondor. (IIRC they went for a visit.)

Merry drew the short straw. ;)Haha! :D I actually think Merry was a brilliant general. I think he assumed the leadership naturally and no one thought otherwise.



Apparently not. It seems that the hobbits needed a leader to motivate them for a common cause. There seemed to be many hobbits that did not like what was happening to them, yet they did not organize to put a stop to Sharkey&Company.Yeah, I think this relates to the other hobbits' inaction about Sharkey's occupation.

The Hobbits would have turned to Gandalf to save their bacon. They would not have realized the inner strength that they possess to deal with problems on their own.I agree! I think Gandalf knew this too and that's why he bid them goodbye. Not "dropped his tools" as Saruman would have you believe.

It is a simple yet elegent ending. It leaves me wanting the story to continue, yet I know that the story has come to an end.Yes, the end, while final, still makes you feel that the story is ongoing.

A great reccommendation. 1420 ale was a great year for ale. :DHehe. I left some things out of my original posts, so look for an edit. :D :o

[jammi567]

Nice chapter summery to lead us out into the world of the......... Appendices! :D :rolleyes:

Anyways, here's my responses:

1) I agree. If it wasn't affecting your life when it starts, then why the hell would you want to complain.

2) I think the most poiniant(sp) scenes is the bits where the hobbits kill Wormtail, because he really was just an innocent life gone wrong, and the re-organising of the Shire, because it shows and reenforces teamwork, and the rewards that can benifit from that. What i don't get is: why did the hobbits kill Wormtail in the first place, when he's just killed the one person who got them into that situation in the first place?

3) I wouldn't mind it being what happened to the other characters after the story finished. Like the 'Eplague' that was written, but cut out.

4) Because i guess he had the most battle experiance of all four of them.

5) I think she's kind, but firm. She has determination and paitence. Her relationship with Sam, i can't really say, because we never really see them in a normal situation to be able to say what it's like.


1) I think he would've got to Rivendale, and be made to either say there to keep bilbo company, or be sent back to the shire, where he could remain 'safe'.

2) I don't think so. To me, it seems as if everyone there is equal with each other. But the example you give sounds like the Baggin's: They became famous and well known throught the shire, instead of hobbition, or the farthing they're in.

3) I don't think any other hobbit would want to, because they seemed to think "ohhh, well, we've got ourselves too deep into this mess, nothing we can do now."

4) Can't think of anything at this moment. Maybe i'll post on this later.

5) With Gandalf there, the hobbits, in general, wouldn't have realized that sometimes, they need to sort their own business out, and thus, realize that they can do more then have six meals a day. :)

6) Ummmmmm, it represents that Sam and Frodo's jouney is finally over, and that Sam can now truely settle down and get his life back to normal as he possibly can.

7) That the urbanisation of the countryside is bad, because it distroys that beautiness, and the feeling of beaing at peace within yourself.

8) Of course it is, because it's helping to repair the damage of urbanisation, and restore the beauty of the shire, that Tolkien would've assossiated with the engaland of his youth, which was, and still is, going the same way.

9) I'll post on this later. Sorry.

[Nurvingiel]

Nice chapter summery to lead us out into the world of the......... Appendices! :D :rolleyes: Hee. :D

2) I think the most poiniant(sp) scenes is the bits where the hobbits kill Wormtail, because he really was just an innocent life gone wrong, and the re-organising of the Shire, because it shows and reenforces teamwork, and the rewards that can benifit from that. What i don't get is: why did the hobbits kill Wormtail in the first place, when he's just killed the one person who got them into that situation in the first place?You bring up a very good point which has never occured to me in all my previous readings ; why in Middle-earth did the hobbits shoot Wormtongue? He did murder Lotho, but the situation plays out as if they aren't really getting revenge for Lotho by shooting Wormtongue.

Wormtongue, just like Lotho, was duped by Saruman. He wasn't quite a stupid as Lotho, but Saruman slowly made Grima dependent on him until he became so loathesome he became known as Wormtongue. At this point, I think he felt his only choice was to serve Saruman, though I feel this was not the case at all. Saruman effectively trapped Wormtongue's mind.

Anyway, why did the hobbits kill him? My theory is that they were so angry about the occupation, and keyed up after the battle, that they wanted to kill someone. Wormtongue did kill Saruman for them, but I think the four hobbits who shot him probably did so out of instinct since Wormtongue was trying to escape.

I'm sure there were more bowmen (bowhobbits?) in the army, but only those four had the reaction to shoot wormtongue.

Frodo especially, and most of the hobbits there, kept a much cooler and would not have killed them.

Oddly, after Saruman tried to stab Frodo he was thrown down, but after Wormtongue killed Saruman, he was shot. Maybe it's because Sam was the first to go after Saruman, and the other hobbits were following his lead? This would not have been the case for the shooting of Wormtongue.

Another possibility is that the four hobbits were so shocked by seeing Saruman murdered like that, that this led to their reaction of shooting Wormtongue. Saruman never directly murder anyone (though through his occupation, he was arguably responsible for every death in the occupation), but Wormtongue had murdered Lotho and Saruman. In some ways, he was more dangerous than Saruman, who never really had the guts to do his own murdering.

3) I wouldn't mind it being what happened to the other characters after the story finished. Like the 'Eplague' that was written, but cut out.There was an epilogue? What epilogue? And why isn't it in the Appendicies?

4) Because i guess he had the most battle experiance of all four of them.Oh yeah! I forgot he killed a Nazgul and stuff. Heh. :o (Not that Pippin was slacking off, killing that mountain troll and all, but I think Merry was also more confident because of this.)

1) I think he would've got to Rivendale, and be made to either say there to keep bilbo company, or be sent back to the shire, where he could remain 'safe'.That makes the most sense. I think he would have been much better off in this scenario! That's way better than languishing in the Lockholes.

I like Fredegar, I wish we had gotten to see more of him.

2) I don't think so. To me, it seems as if everyone there is equal with each other. But the example you give sounds like the Baggin's: They became famous and well known throught the shire, instead of hobbition, or the farthing they're in.Every hobbit is equal, but some are more equal than others. :D The Bagginses are referred to as gentlehobbits, and Sam is always Frodo's servant, even after their adventures. (Though he is equal to Frodo in my mind, but then again, I think about all of them that way.)

A class system and servants, etc. is something I probably will never comprehend.

5) With Gandalf there, the hobbits, in general, wouldn't have realized that sometimes, they need to sort their own business out, and thus, realize that they can do more then have six meals a day. :) Ahaha, absolutely! :D I think the three of us are in agreement on this point.

I do wonder how a final showdown between Gandalf and Saruman would have gone, though. I think that neither Saruman nor Wormtongue would have died.

9) I'll post on this later. Sorry.Don't apologise! You don't have to answer all the questions, just the ones you want to. And feel free to pose your own discussion points too. :)

[jammi567]

There was an epilogue? What epilogue? And why isn't it in the Appendicies?

There was an epilogue that Tolkien wrote, that had Sam, years after the main story finishes, answers questions posed by his kids about what happened to the other characters. But as Tolkien himself said:

"...I could not devise anything that would not have destroyed the ending, more than hints (possibly sufficient) in the appendices."

For more details on this epilogue, read 'Sauron Defeated'.

[Nurvingiel]

Tolkien was wise, not to carry on the story long after it should have ended. (Everyone's looking at you Robert Jordan.)

The Appendicies are pretty rad though. There's a lot of good material in there.

[Serenoli]

Every hobbit is equal, but some are more equal than others. The Bagginses are referred to as gentlehobbits, and Sam is always Frodo's servant, even after their adventures. (Though he is equal to Frodo in my mind, but then again, I think about all of them that way.) A class system and servants, etc. is something I probably will never comprehend.

Yes, and the Tooks and Brandybucks also powers of positions that were handed down in the family. The Baggins were actually less respectable than the Tooks and Brandybucks, despite the fame and riches, and you'll notice Frodo treats Sam much more as an equal than Pippin and Merry, esp towards the start of the book.

[Landroval]

The Baggins were actually less respectable than the Tooks and Brandybucks, despite the fame and riches
About the respectability, I disagree; about richness, it was the other way around - that is, until Bilbo went in his legendary quest.
They discreetly disappeared, and the family hushed it up; but the fact remained that the Tooks were not as respectable as the Bagginses, though they were undoubtedly richer.

[Butterbeer]

depends if you meant respected as in position of authority, power, Lordship / thainship etc, or respectability . If the latter then Landroval is correct. If the former than Nurv is.

Sam was never a 'servant' more paid 'help' and although there is a cultural system it is rather warm and fuzzy round the edges - i agree that merry and Pip see Sam more in this light than Frodo does, but they do so only to a degree and are on friends terms with him from day one which indicates no class system on the old fashioned English model of gentry or Aristocrtas - this is a post black death serf-free world and i can see no direct comparison with a class system that will hold any thorough examination or detailed investigation.


By the end, there can be no doubt that Sam is held in high esteem by Merry and Pip, and indeed he has grown above them, yet it is Sam himself and only Sam that does not see this, a character trait that makes us warm to him all the more.


Frodo would not lead any military action, he wished to raise no sword.

Merry and Pip of course would lead here, their's was a different path and self journey to that of Sam and Frodo, and who else would call up the Tooks and Brandybucks?

[Butterbeer]

3. Could any other hobbit or hobbits have raised the Shire against Saruman?

The shire was not totally taken, the Tooks and the BrandyBucks were still independent, if enclosed...

even without the famous 4, hobbits being hobbits with their slow burning courage they would eventually have overthrown the tyranny.

besides, at some point the King's messengers would ride north, and i doubt a few thugs would rate too well against the King's wrath.

But the whole point was that they now deal themselves with their own affairs, and that Frodo has gone full circle from wishing gollum dead and being prepared to sit morally in judgment on life and death to the ultimate cruelty of wisdom as saruman later reflects: "You have grown HALFLING"

[Landroval]

depends if you meant respected as in position of authority, power, Lordship / thainship etc, or respectability . If the latter then Landroval is correct. If the former than Nurv is.
You may be right

[Nurvingiel]

Yes, and the Tooks and Brandybucks also powers of positions that were handed down in the family. The Baggins were actually less respectable than the Tooks and Brandybucks, despite the fame and riches, and you'll notice Frodo treats Sam much more as an equal than Pippin and Merry, esp towards the start of the book.But Sam is Frodo's servant. That implies that Frodo is of a higher class, or some similar nonsense.

The Brandybucks, Tooks, and Bagginses are all part of the upper class. The Gamgees and Cottons are members of the lower class. That's the impression I got from the books.

I'm sure I'm disagreeing with Landroval here.

(note: never argue with a giant eagle before breakfast) :D

[Landroval]

The Brandybucks, Tooks, and Bagginses are all part of the upper class. The Gamgees and Cottons are members of the lower class. That's the impression I got from the books.
Then again, we might have a misconception about what classes actually were for Tolkien; he amusingly notes about a discussion on England's classes he had with an American officer, in Letter #58:
He was impressed I think when I said that an Englishman's relations with porters, butlers, and tradesmen had as much connexion with 'Feudalism' as skyscrapers had with Red Indian wigwams, or taking off one's hat to a lady has with the modern methods of collecting Income Tax; but I am certain he was not convinced.
(note: never argue with a giant eagle before breakfast)
Please kindly bear in mind that this eagle will protect his feathers to his dying breath against your hunger :D

[jammi567]

The Brandybucks, Tooks, and Bagginses are all part of the upper class. The Gamgees and Cottons are members of the lower class. That's the impression I got from the books.
But even from the beginning, Sam was Frodo's friend, and the Gamgees are poor. So Frodo (or bilbo) feels sorry for him, and gives him a pernament job to keep the income coming in.

[The Gaffer]

I don't think it could be any clearer that the Gangees are "lower" class and the Bagginses, Tooks etc. are gentry. Sam constantly refers to Frodo as "Master". Remember also the scene right at the start when the hobbits sleep outdoors for the first night, and Pippin barks orders at Sam, jokingly, who doesn't realise that it's a joke.

[jammi567]

That's what Sam and Pippin think, but that doesn't mean that's what it's actually like. You said yourself the Pippin said that statement as a joke, so that shows to me that he considers all hobbits equal.

[Butterbeer]

well said mr Jams!

Like and yet not alike methinks.

What society do you claim el gaffer that is equalitarian perfectly prey?

The issue is, whether it is strictly a classist system on the fuedal scale, and i propose that it clearly isn't.

Note that Sam becomes Mayor and is accepted into the sundered west ultimately. Note the comaraderie between Sam and Pip and merry - despite wealth it is pretty non classist. Sam was an earthy character and an honest gardener who pretended to be nothing else ... does that mean he is any the less equal or dear to frodo?

Farmer maggot, a 'squire' if ye will, and a respected and forthright man on his own terms and fields also used 'Master' as does good ol' Barliaman all the time.

Tis language sir, not hieahracy! (sp)


best, BB

[The Gaffer]

We might have to agree to disagree on that one. However, since it's gin o'clock, it will have to wait till morning...

nighty-night

[Landroval]

I think it is relevant to our discussion to mention the source of inspiration for Sam, as stated in Tolkien's biography:
These old campaigners were ready to take advantage of any slip made by a recruit, and Tolkien reported that they treated him like an inferior schoolboy. He had more respect for the ‘men’, the N.C.O.s and privates who made up the other eight hundred or so members of the battalion. A few of them were from South Wales but most were Lancashire men. Officers could not make friends among them, for the system did not permit it; but each officer had a batman, a servant who was detailed to look after his kit and care for him much in the manner of an Oxford scout. Through this, Tolkien got to know several of the men very well. Discussing one of the principal characters in The Lord of the Rings he wrote many years later: ‘My "Sam Gamgee" is indeed a reflexion of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognised as so far superior to myself.’

[The Gaffer]

Thanks for that quote, Landroval. I wonder who the "old campaigners" were? It seems as if Tolkien had a problem with the lower classes except where they were assigned to serve him.

Just a few things that spring to mind around the Shire's class system:
- Sam calling Frodo "Master" throughout
- Sam calls Pippin and Merry "Master" too at times
- Frodo, and others, referring to him as his servant
- Bilbo's kindness to "less important families"
- The hobbits' concern with lineage

But it would appear there is also a class mobility, such as the "rise" of the Gamgees afterwards, which would set it apart from the English class system :D

[Valandil]

... I wonder who the "old campaigners" were? It seems as if Tolkien had a problem with the lower classes except where they were assigned to serve him...

Not necessarily so.

I think what you often have in our modern-time armies, is young officers coming in, fresh from college or officer-training or a military academy - being placed in command of men who are older than them and who have been in the thick of numerous battles over the course of several years.

It's quite natural for these sort of "old campaigners" to hold a little resentment toward the young officers who are placed over them. Yet they will still follow their orders, even if they lead to disaster (which they often will, due to the inexperience of the officer).

So - I don't know if Tolkien actually held them in contempt - he was probably just "sizing up" the situation.

[sun-star]

Thanks for that quote, Landroval. I wonder who the "old campaigners" were? It seems as if Tolkien had a problem with the lower classes except where they were assigned to serve him.

The previous sentence in the biography says (bearing in mind these are Humphrey Carpenter's words, not Tolkien's own):

The older company commanders and adjutants were in many cases professional soldiers dug out of retirement, men with narrow minds and endless stories of India or the Boer War.

I don't think that in the First World War most such men would have been working class. In fact they probably looked down on Tolkien's social origins rather than the other way around (lower middle class, Catholic...)

Anyway, I agree that the Shire has a pretty clear class system. It's not feudalism in the strictest sense, more like a benign and idealised version of the social structure of 19th and early 20th century rural England. This kind of structure allows for social mobility like Sam's through education and the help of a wealthy patron, since rare cases like these reinforce the status quo rather than challenging it.

8. Discuss the technology used in Galadriel's gift - the soil that allowed one grain to increase the trees' growth rate to twenty times the natural rate. This seems to be one of the few technologies Tolkien approves of.

Interesting point... Possibly Tolkien wouldn't have considered this a form of 'technology' at all, more like a very efficient kind of traditional husbandry. I suppose the difference is that Galadriel's method works in harmony with nature, rather than trying to violently exploit it for profit.

[Butterbeer]

The previous sentence in the biography says (bearing in mind these are Humphrey Carpenter's words, not Tolkien's own):





Anyway, I agree that the Shire has a pretty clear class system. It's not feudalism in the strictest sense, more like a benign and idealised version of the social structure of 19th and early 20th century rural England. This kind of structure allows for social mobility like Sam's through education and the help of a wealthy patron, since rare cases like these reinforce the status quo rather than challenging it.



I agree, it clearly is not a class system as comparable to the alleged english class system of rank and privelage.
I see use of words such as hammer and gaffer and master as a more idealised rural idyl, and since we know that JRR uses language very carefully in description more than most, this i think is how he intends it - it goes against all evidence of what he creates with the shire and what it stands for to have any direct comparison to any rigid and 'orcish' (in tolkien's mind) system- after all - isn't this the whole point of the 'scouring of the shire' chapter???

the whole contrast of the whole work is seen, to me, in the hobbits and the free shire and it's hark back to a quiet peaceful life and the world cruelly turning to power hungry, industrialsation and war and regimentation of the world gone mad ...

whoever says there were not rich and poor and a beleivable culture???

... of course!

... but to say it is classism seems patently mad to me.



best, BB :)

[jammi567]

I agree with you. It was just the way country people in his time would speek. Nothing about a class system.

[The Gaffer]

Well, we're going to have to agree to differ on that one I'm afraid: I can't see how anyone could convince me that Tolkien's Shire is NOT a very clear class system. I see it as an idealized, neo-feudal agrarian system, in which the upper class have a genuine sense of stewardship and responsibility towards the lower, and in return, the lower class have a sense of duty towards the upper.

However, I agree, BB, that this adds to the realism and authenticity of it.

On to Galadriel's "technology". I suspect that JRRT would balk at the use of the term in connection with Galadriel's box.

* fnarr, fnarr * :eek: :eek:

I think it's more a kind of blessing. The interesting thing about it is how its virtue is multiplied ijn response to Sam's wish to heal the hurts of all the Shire, and not just his own garden.

[jammi567]

Yeah, like: the more you want nature repaired, the more power it'll give you in doing that.

[Nurvingiel]

I agree with the Gaffer about the Hobbit class system as part of their society. That doesn't mean Hobbits are bad or anything, it just means that not all their positions of authority are merit-based, like the Mayor.

I took the "old campaigners" in the biography quote to mean Tolkien's superiors, though it seems I got it backwards. No officer likes the soldiers he commands to be insubordinate, regardless of their class.

Tolkien doesn't strike me as having a problem with lower classes, I merely think he wrote one into Hobbit society. (And to varying degrees, all the societies in Middle-earth.)

[Butterbeer]

* fnarr, fnarr * :eek: :eek:



:D :D

i disagree on da agreeing to disagree bit :p

i can go with most of your agrarian stewardship bit, but not the class element. Suppose it ultimately depends on what you mean by class.

But a rigid structure that alludes to class and a rigid system is clearly not the shire.

El Nurv:
Tolkien doesn't strike me as having a problem with lower classes, I merely think he wrote one into Hobbit society. (And to varying degrees, all the societies in Middle-earth.)

yes and no.

This to me, is actually rather an astute point - given the rigidity of ancestral lineage and the taller more noble kings and lords and etc etc ... and the con-commitant classism inherrent throughout all his middle earth writings-

it all actually draws into stark contrast what he idealises about the shire and the hobbits -

he is not per se preaching a meritocracy in the shire (though you could hardly argue Sam as not being worthy of being mayor as and when he wanted it after ol' Will Whitfooty doodah blokey had had a good run)

but there is all the world of difference in the shire to say the high elves or the Lords of Rohan or of Arnor or Gondor ...

Case closed! ;)

[Nurvingiel]

All the societies in Middle-earth have class systems, they're just different from each other. And Hobbits are way more laid back. :D

[Earniel]

Frodo’s injuries, of knife, sting, and tooth, are taking their toll on his health. He never complains, but over the years, Sam notices Frodo is very ill certain times of the year, and he often fingers (if you’ll excuse Professor Tolkien’s pun) the white jewel the Lady Galadriel gave him.
Wasn't this the jewel that Arwen gave Frodo?

“No Sam!” said Frodo. “Do not kill him even now. For he has not hurt me. And in any case I do not wish him to be slain in this evil mood. He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him in the hope that he might find it.”
I always wondered whether Frodo's continued insistance that none of the ruffians are killed and that even Saruman is spared after his assassination attempt, stems from his experience with Gollum. He first wished Bilbo had killed him and Gandalf admonished him for it. In the end Gandalf proved right in saying that Gollum still had a part to play, and Gollum's intervention ended up saving Frodo. So clearly Frodo now seems convinced of the idea that everyone can still be redeemed.

1. Why are the Hobbits taking orders from the Chief when they don’t even know who that person is?
The take-over by Saruman from Lotho was rather clever. He got Lotho to start up the whole mess. Lotho, the Hobbits knew well, most of them may not have liked him very much, but he was from a sufficiently respected family and for Hobbits that seemed enough. And Lotho appears to have owned much of the land on which the changes began. It's only when he started doing things outside his legitimate place that people started to complain. And afterwards, when nobody liked Lotho but couldn't do anything for fear of being beaten or locked up, the Chief came over and just filled up the empty shoes at the top.

2. Which scene is your favourite in these chapters, and why? Which is the most poignant? The funniest?
I quite like Sam's quote: "I can add some more if you’d like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to punch his Pimply face, and Thinking you Shirrifs look a lot of Tom-fools."

Spot on.

If another chapter followed The Grey Havens, what would you like it to be about?
Maybe how the other members of the Fellowship got on. There's tidbits in the appendices but there's material enough to fill a nice chapter. But it would also undo some of the impact of Sam's "I'm back" quote.

Why is it Merry, and not Frodo, Sam, or Pippin, who takes charge of military affairs?
Merry always struck me as the most practical of the four and he did spent the most time with the western armies. Pippin was in the royal guard, but I dare say he saw little of the whole battle before Minas Tirith.

Pippin says to Fatty Bolger, after he is released from the Lockholes, that he “would have done better to come with us after all, poor old Fredegar!” Would he have? And how would this have affected the Fellowship?
If I remember correctly, Fatty was not keen to join the four others, the old forest spooked him. He preferred to stay in Crickhollow to keep up appearances. In a way, I think opposing the ruffians and ending up locked up is a more bearable life compared to risking your life on Caradhras, in Moria, in the many battle-fields or in the wastelands of Mordor. Although, I reckon, being not fed enough in prison may be just as terrible for a Hobbit! ;)

2. There are hints at the Hobbit class system in these chapters. (eg. Rise of fame and fortune of the Cottons after the Battle of Bywater.) Did this make them more susceptible to Saruman’s occupation?
Not really. I think the peacefulness and complacency the Hobbits were used to was a more defining factor.

Could any other hobbit or hobbits have raised the Shire against Saruman?
I sort of doubt it. Farmer Cotton may have tried something if matters continued to deteriorate, but I doubt he could have gathered so many Hobbits in so little time and the losses would have been greater. It is also unlikely he could get the ruffians ousted so quickely and completely.

About Saruman's occupation, I always wondered what his motives exactly were. He says he did it to extract some revenge on the Hobbits for the destruction of Isengard, but I dare say that's a later motive. That only comes into play when he himself arrived at Hobbiton and started the random desctruction in earnest.

But he already had set things in motion much earlier, only shortly after Frodo and the three others had left the Shire. Was it a wish to dominate the Hobbits, or was his desire to find out the Ring-bearer among the Hobbits the actual root?

Discuss the technology used in Galadriel's gift - the soil that allowed one grain to increase the trees' growth rate to twenty times the natural rate. This seems to be one of the few technologies Tolkien approves of.
I wouldn't call it a technology, Galadriel's gift is more rooted in natural processes and Elven arts. The technology that Tolkien sees is one of wheels, machineries and chimneys with black smoke. Bio-engineering wasn't part of it yet.

You bring up a very good point which has never occured to me in all my previous readings ; why in Middle-earth did the hobbits shoot Wormtongue? He did murder Lotho, but the situation plays out as if they aren't really getting revenge for Lotho by shooting Wormtongue.
Aside from the ideas already given, tt could also be that they didn't want an unpredictable and murderous creature just as Wormtongue had proven himself to be, to wander around in the Shire.

[Nurvingiel]

Wasn't this the jewel that Arwen gave Frodo?Editing will now ensue. :o

Edit: Actually, didn't Galadriel give him that jewel along with the phial?

I always wondered whether Frodo's continued insistance that none of the ruffians are killed and that even Saruman is spared after his assassination attempt, stems from his experience with Gollum. He first wished Bilbo had killed him and Gandalf admonished him for it. In the end Gandalf proved right in saying that Gollum still had a part to play, and Gollum's intervention ended up saving Frodo. So clearly Frodo now seems convinced of the idea that everyone can still be redeemed.I completely agree. This emphasises how wise and kind Frodo is.

I quite like Sam's quote: "I can add some more if you’d like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to punch his Pimply face, and Thinking you Shirrifs look a lot of Tom-fools."

Spot on.Absolutely. Well, you know how much I love that quote. See: signature. I really love Sam.

Maybe how the other members of the Fellowship got on. There's tidbits in the appendices but there's material enough to fill a nice chapter. But it would also undo some of the impact of Sam's "I'm back" quote.I agree. It would be so cool to see Aragorn rebuilding Gondor or read about Legolas and Gimli's adventures going to the Crystal Caves and Ithilien.

Merry always struck me as the most practical of the four and he did spent the most time with the western armies. Pippin was in the royal guard, but I dare say he saw little of the whole battle before Minas Tirith.That's probably it. Someone else mentioned he saw more campaigning as well.

If I remember correctly, Fatty was not keen to join the four others, the old forest spooked him. He preferred to stay in Crickhollow to keep up appearances. In a way, I think opposing the ruffians and ending up locked up is a more bearable life compared to risking your life on Caradhras, in Moria, in the many battle-fields or in the wastelands of Mordor. Although, I reckon, being not fed enough in prison may be just as terrible for a Hobbit! ;)Quoted for truth. :D

Not really. I think the peacefulness and complacency the Hobbits were used to was a more defining factor.Yes. I wonder if after this they will, at the very least, start paying attention to the world outside their own country.

I sort of doubt it. Farmer Cotton may have tried something if matters continued to deteriorate, but I doubt he could have gathered so many Hobbits in so little time and the losses would have been greater. It is also unlikely he could get the ruffians ousted so quickely and completely.The Tooks seem the most likely possibility, though they didn't operate outside their own lands until Pippin came along. If he had not, maybe eventually they would have started something.

About Saruman's occupation, I always wondered what his motives exactly were. He says he did it to extract some revenge on the Hobbits for the destruction of Isengard, but I dare say that's a later motive. That only comes into play when he himself arrived at Hobbiton and started the random desctruction in earnest.

But he already had set things in motion much earlier, only shortly after Frodo and the three others had left the Shire. Was it a wish to dominate the Hobbits, or was his desire to find out the Ring-bearer among the Hobbits the actual root?He had had an interest in the Shire longer than Sauron did. Maybe he had actually been thinking about a take-over for a long time for the purposes of finding the Ring and only when he had become sufficiently mad from the desire for the Ring did he actually do it.

Practically speaking, to find the Ring he should have been looking much earlier (maybe he was?), but Saruman seems like the type who operates in the background and only reveals himself when he's in complete control of the situation. This is what we saw with Saruman's use of Lotho, as you outlined in your post here:

The take-over by Saruman from Lotho was rather clever. He got Lotho to start up the whole mess. Lotho, the Hobbits knew well, most of them may not have liked him very much, but he was from a sufficiently respected family and for Hobbits that seemed enough. And Lotho appears to have owned much of the land on which the changes began. It's only when he started doing things outside his legitimate place that people started to complain. And afterwards, when nobody liked Lotho but couldn't do anything for fear of being beaten or locked up, the Chief came over and just filled up the empty shoes at the top.

But Saruman was in a difficult situation. If he had moved openly on the Shire while Sauron was still powerful, he would have attracted his attention. If he waits too long, as he did, then the Ring is already gone.

Saruman must have known that the Ring was no longer in the Shire at the time he invaded. I just can't imagine him being that short of intelligence for an invasion - not a strategic and clever guy like him.

So finding the Ring probably wasn't his goal. Revenge is more likely, especially when you think that Saruman is a bit of a coward, or at least he doesn't like to get his hands dirty. It was the Ents that really trashed his home; Merry and Pippin were just the catalyst. But it's easier to get revenge on complacent Hobbits than on beings who can tear apart stone as though it's loves of bread. :D


I wouldn't call it a technology, Galadriel's gift is more rooted in natural processes and Elven arts. The technology that Tolkien sees is one of wheels, machineries and chimneys with black smoke. Bio-engineering wasn't part of it yet.I suppose, but I would quibble that it still is technology, just not as Tolkien might define it.


Aside from the ideas already given, tt could also be that they didn't want an unpredictable and murderous creature just as Wormtongue had proven himself to be, to wander around in the Shire.A good point, but why not capture him?

[Earniel]

Editing will now ensue. :o

Edit: Actually, didn't Galadriel give him that jewel along with the phial?
No, Galadriel only gave him the phial in Lórien, I just checked that chapter. So I'm pretty sure it must be the jewel he received from Arwen in Minas Tirith.

Absolutely. Well, you know how much I love that quote. See: signature. I really love Sam.
Sam's a really lovable character.

I agree. It would be so cool to see Aragorn rebuilding Gondor or read about Legolas and Gimli's adventures going to the Crystal Caves and Ithilien.
Agreed. The Crystal Caves especially sound interesting and Gimli's poetic description on augments the curiosity.

Yes. I wonder if after this they will, at the very least, start paying attention to the world outside their own country.
Some at least, I reckon, now that there's peace. I assume it will be mostly Gondor and Rohan under influence of Merry and Pippin. But I don't see too many Hobbits adventuring out of their cosy Shire. Interest in foreign literature they'll undoubtedly have, but it takes much to pry a Hobbit physically from the Shire. :D

The Tooks seem the most likely possibility, though they didn't operate outside their own lands until Pippin came along. If he had not, maybe eventually they would have started something.
They seemed content enough to stick to keeping the ruffians out of their own land. And they were surrounded, I believe, well... not surrounded enough to keep Pippin from getting a 100 Tooks in the battle of Bywater, but it appears the Tooks were isolated enough from the rest of the Shire to cut communications, and so planning.

Practically speaking, to find the Ring he should have been looking much earlier (maybe he was?), but Saruman seems like the type who operates in the background and only reveals himself when he's in complete control of the situation. This is what we saw with Saruman's use of Lotho, as you outlined in your post here:
He must have had spies in the Shire before Frodo left. There must have been at least some years that he was importing pipe weed before scaling up his intrusion in the Shire. I reckon it took a few years as well to get a sufficuent influence on Lotho to have him start up the invasion from the inside.

I realise there may be a third motive that I hadn't considered before. Saruman knew Gandalf had much interest in the Hobbit realm, therefore Saruman may also have been motivated in finding out what Gandalf was up too. The later take-over and destruction of the Shire could also have been a means to hurt Gandalf since Saruman knew Gandalf had a soft spot for the Shire.

Saruman must have been sorely disappointed to find out only the Hobbits had come to oust him, and that Gandalf had bailed out. If Gandalf knew that Saruman had been busy in the Shire (he certainly knew of the new Buckland gate) then there's a possibility he not only went to Tom Bombadil to give the Hobbits the chance to stand on their own legs, but he might not have wanted to give Saruman the satisfaction of showing him what destruction the fallen wizard could still wreak.

But Saruman was in a difficult situation. If he had moved openly on the Shire while Sauron was still powerful, he would have attracted his attention. If he waits too long, as he did, then the Ring is already gone.
Good point, I hadn't even thought about that yet. Sauron would have demanded a few explanations for Saruman's sudden interest in the Shire, had he known of it. And the moment the Ring had left the Shire, Sauron would have lost interest in it and Saruman could move in openly. If he couldn't get the Ring in the Shire, at least he could take over the place uninterrupted.

A good point, but why not capture him?
They might not have risked it? It takes only a part of a second to release a bow and an arrow can't be recalled.

[Nurvingiel]

No, Galadriel only gave him the phial in Lórien, I just checked that chapter. So I'm pretty sure it must be the jewel he received from Arwen in Minas Tirith.Will now edit. :o

Sam's a really lovable character.Didn't someone post a quote from Tolkien's letters saying he based his character on the (typical?) British soldier, from his experience in WWI?

Agreed. The Crystal Caves especially sound interesting and Gimli's poetic description on augments the curiosity.But I guess it wouldn't be any fun if he had told us every single detail. Something has to be left up to the imagination!

Some at least, I reckon, now that there's peace. I assume it will be mostly Gondor and Rohan under influence of Merry and Pippin. But I don't see too many Hobbits adventuring out of their cosy Shire. Interest in foreign literature they'll undoubtedly have, but it takes much to pry a Hobbit physically from the Shire. :DHaha, as long as they start paying attention to foreign news that will certainly help them. Maybe there will be a Hobbit newspaper, with an adventurous guy like Robin Smallburrow as the foreign correspondent.

They seemed content enough to stick to keeping the ruffians out of their own land. And they were surrounded, I believe, well... not surrounded enough to keep Pippin from getting a 100 Tooks in the battle of Bywater, but it appears the Tooks were isolated enough from the rest of the Shire to cut communications, and so planning.Eventually they would have had to do something, if only to secure supplies of pipe-weed and ale.

He must have had spies in the Shire before Frodo left. There must have been at least some years that he was importing pipe weed before scaling up his intrusion in the Shire. I reckon it took a few years as well to get a sufficuent influence on Lotho to have him start up the invasion from the inside.True. Maybe he was looking for the Ring covertly, and just never found it. Good thing Merry and Pippin weren't his spies, since they figured it out ages ago.

I realise there may be a third motive that I hadn't considered before. Saruman knew Gandalf had much interest in the Hobbit realm, therefore Saruman may also have been motivated in finding out what Gandalf was up too. The later take-over and destruction of the Shire could also have been a means to hurt Gandalf since Saruman knew Gandalf had a soft spot for the Shire.Now that you mention it, that seems like an excellent motivation. He regarded Radagast as silly (unfairly, IMO) and Gandalf as his rival.

Saruman must have been sorely disappointed to find out only the Hobbits had come to oust him, and that Gandalf had bailed out. If Gandalf knew that Saruman had been busy in the Shire (he certainly knew of the new Buckland gate) then there's a possibility he not only went to Tom Bombadil to give the Hobbits the chance to stand on their own legs, but he might not have wanted to give Saruman the satisfaction of showing him what destruction the fallen wizard could still wreak.I bet Gandalf also had the confidence in the four Travellers that they would sort Saruman out.

Good point, I hadn't even thought about that yet. Sauron would have demanded a few explanations for Saruman's sudden interest in the Shire, had he known of it. And the moment the Ring had left the Shire, Sauron would have lost interest in it and Saruman could move in openly. If he couldn't get the Ring in the Shire, at least he could take over the place uninterrupted.Which makes sense now that we realise he really wanted to spite Gandalf, and probably the Hobbits, just because.

They might not have risked it? It takes only a part of a second to release a bow and an arrow can't be recalled.Had those four Hobbits not fired, they probably would have captured Grima. But those guys were probably really keyed up from the battle. I just can't imagine a Hobbit killing someone vengefully. Not even a jerk like Ted Sandyman. I wonder what became of that guy anyway?

[Earniel]

But I guess it wouldn't be any fun if he had told us every single detail. Something has to be left up to the imagination!
True, too true. Too much information can spoil a thing, but hints keep you curiousity.

Haha, as long as they start paying attention to foreign news that will certainly help them. Maybe there will be a Hobbit newspaper, with an adventurous guy like Robin Smallburrow as the foreign correspondent.
Hahah! Although I reckon they would have been mostly be interested in foreign history, I can't quite imagine many hobbits taking an interest in contempory foreign events, it just doesn't quite sound like them.

Eventually they would have had to do something, if only to secure supplies of pipe-weed and ale.
Good point, their stores wouldn't have lasted forever.

True. Maybe he was looking for the Ring covertly, and just never found it. Good thing Merry and Pippin weren't his spies, since they figured it out ages ago.
Yes, but it is surprising how close Saruman got anyway. Lotho was near enough family. You'd almost think Saruman knew the significance of the name Baggins, but I doubt Sauron ever relayed Gollum's words.

The only set-back for Saruman was that both Bilbo and Frodo didn't get along with that branch of the family in the first place. Otherwise things might have happened quite differently.

I bet Gandalf also had the confidence in the four Travellers that they would sort Saruman out.
I agree. I don't think Gandalf would have let them go alone if he didn't have confidence in their ability to handle this on their own.

Had those four Hobbits not fired, they probably would have captured Grima. But those guys were probably really keyed up from the battle. I just can't imagine a Hobbit killing someone vengefully. Not even a jerk like Ted Sandyman. I wonder what became of that guy anyway?
Pester someone hard enough and he'll break at one point, and the Hobbits were pestered for quite a while. It's natural for them for wanting to hurt their oppressors, even if this was out of their normal character. If Frodo hadn't been constantly reminding them not to kill their enemies if they could avoid it, things might have gotten far uglier.

I reckon Ted probably lay low for a while afterwards. His reputation might have gotten a serious beating, but I doubt the Hobbits would have laid a finger on him.