orcs used to be elfs WOW

[rael]

i firmly believe that even though the book says they are elfs tortured beyond normal lines that they would betray there own race thay by all rights should still be good but as j.r.r tolkien based the book on the vietnam war well i think that they were the vietnamise but as i said before on the outlook of the book the elfs would even after being tortured never serve sauron not even if they were bribed profoundly so as i said they cannot be tortured elfs in my opinion but tortured men as we as men have many faults as of course we would turn against our country in the case of supreme torturing

[durinsbane2244]

er....

1. elves.
2. why is this in the hobbit?

:confused:

[Landroval]

The origin of orcs changed over time; some maiar became orcs (cf Myths Transformed, HoME X) and some men too. But orcs appeared long before the coming of Men, so some elves must have been turned into orcs also. I am pretty sure there is some lengthy thread about this around the site.

Concerning their meta-origin, Tolkien confesses about borrowing it:
They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in.

[Earniel]

Moved to silmarillion forum.

[The Gaffer]

Also, Tolkien had nothing to do with the Vietnam war. He fought in World War I, losing several close friends in the process.

I don't think there's any evidence that orcs are modelled on any particular enemy from any particular war.

[GreyMouser]

but as j.r.r tolkien based the book on the vietnam war well i think that they were the vietnamise b

UMMM.....Tolkien started writing LoTR in 1937-38
LoTR first published 1954-1955

First Americans killed in Vietnam- 1959 (military advisors)
US Special Forces Deployed as instructors-1960
First US combat forces -1965

[The Gaffer]

Lessons learned: 1975

Subsequently forgotten: 2003

;)

[Valandil]

Lessons learned: 1975

Subsequently forgotten: 2003

;)

You're one over on each year, Gaff:

Fornost of Arthedain fell to the Witch-King in 1974

Minas Ithil fell to the Witch-King in 2002







double ;)

[The Gaffer]

You're one over on each year, Gaff:

Fornost of Arthedain fell to the Witch-King in 1974

Minas Ithil fell to the Witch-King in 2002










double ;)hehehehe Nice one. :D

[Elemmírë]

Nice, Val. :D

i firmly believe that even though the book says they are elfs tortured beyond normal lines that they would betray there own race thay by all rights should still be good

Trust me, Elves can betray their own race. Most of my favourites did so most splendidly. :p

[Embladyne]

Elves are in no way perfect. Heck, if the Maiar aren't perfect, how can you expect those who are born to be completely without fault?

It makes those who were valiant even more so when their comrades can and have fallen. If they were incapable of evil, then their goodness would serve no purpose and would become meaningless.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

orcs from elves? orcs from men? orcs from maiar? does it really matter? all that matters is that they are great! :D

[Curubethion]

Trust me, Elves can betray their own race. Most of my favourites did so most splendidly. :p
Yah, can you say "Kinslaying"?

[jammi567]

No, you've got it wrong. It's "kinslayings". :rolleyes:

[Tulkas]

it is true elves were captured by morgoths servants and taken back to angband...a little bit of this and a little bit of that and you got yourself an army of orcs

[Butterbeer]

... you do the okey-cokey,

.. and shake it... all about ...