Wolves, Wargs, or Werewolves

[Gil-Galad 2.0]

I'm rereading the Fellowship of the Ring and I'm in the Moria chapter. But I was wondering about the wolves that attacked the Fellowship before they entered Moria. It said that when day came the bodies of the wolves were gone, and I was wondering what exactly they killed a load of the night before.
I guesed that it was either Wolves, Wargs, or Werewolves.
If anyone knows or has a quote that would help, please post it.

Gil-Galad 2.0

[Butterbeer]

they were no ordinary wargs... i.e not a wild pack but 'soldiers' if you will under unders ... ialways assumed they dragged away their own dead .... and as, like as not, probably feasted on them ...

always thought that scene should have been in the film btw ... love that scene ..very visual :)

(welcome to da Moot BTW)

best, BB

[Ellf]

They were definately Wargs. "The wargs have come west of the Mountains" LOTR and... "A great host of Wargs had gathered silently and was now attacking them from every side at once." LOTR and... "These were no ordinary wolves..." LOTR

Definately missed in the movie.

[Alcuin]

There were no bodies in the morning, only the arrows that Legolas had fired into them, save one of which only the head remained after its shaft had burned.

ialways assumed they dragged away their own dead .... and as, like as not, probably feasted on them ...
Had they “dragged away their own dead,� they would have been observed, and probably attacked. But perhaps wargs might not have turned their noses to a little cannibalism were other food scarce, as you suggest.

They were definately Wargs. Are you sure that sounds like Wargs to you? Do their bodies vanish when they are killed? But these were certainly “‘no ordinary wolves,’� whether they looked like Wargs or not.

By the way, Gandalf called their leader “‘Hound of Sauron.’� One of Sauron’s titles in the First Age was “Lord of Werewolves.�

[Butterbeer]

Had they “dragged away their own dead,� they would have been observed, and probably attacked. But perhaps wargs might not have turned their noses to a little cannibalism were other food scarce, as you suggest.
.�


observed by whom out in the wilderness in the night? :eek: :rolleyes:

no one but the nine and the wargs were way out there in the wilderness in the dead of night, and the fellowship remained within the circles of trees in a defensive postion ...

best BB

[Ellf]

Alcuin,
I posted three qoutes from LOTR. I don't understand the reasoning of your post. Please explain how three qoutes from the LOTR that say the beasts are Wargs and you say not.

[Alcuin]

I did not say they were not Wargs. I questioned the assumption that they were.

You will find if you dig deeply that Tolkien does not always present things to the reader as they really are in his subcreation. This is deliberate on his part: by means of this technique, you see the story told through the eyes of the characters, and is it as if you were yourself there. Most of the Lord of the Rings is told from the viewpoint of the hobbits; only the pursuit of the orcs who kidnapped Merry and Pippin and the Paths of the Dead is told from the viewpoint of other characters; and both of those passages appear to be told from the viewpoint of Gimli. (In Unfinished Tales, when Gandalf tells Frodo and his friends about “The Quest of Erebor,� his view of the story laid out in The Hobbit, the only character other than Gandalf who is specifically named but is not a hobbit is Gimli; and in Minas Tirith after the siege was lifted, Legolas and Gimli related their tales to the hobbits at the Houses of Healing; so the entire story is “told,� if you will, by the hobbits, along with materials related to them by Legolas, Gimli, Aragorn, and Gandalf.

Let me offer one recent example with which I recently became aware. In the thread “How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=13286&highlight=scull),� Gordis and I argued that there had to be something else driving events at Weathertop other than Aragorn’s assessment that the Ringwraiths “are only waiting, because they think that their purpose is almost accomplished, and that the Ring cannot fly much further.� It made no sense if this had been a real-world event that the Ringwraiths did not seize Frodo then and there and kill everyone else on Weathertop. Eventually, Gordis found the citation (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=554116&postcount=61) that demonstrated this beyond doubt in the book Reader’s Companion by Hammond and Scull: the Witch-king believed Frodo had somehow defeated the barrow-wight by himself (so he did not know that Bombadil had been there, if he knew about Bombadil at all), and he found Frodo wielding one of the deadly (to the Nazgûl) knives made by the Dúnedain to kill him, one of which Merry later did indeed use in cooperation with Éowyn to slay the Witch-king. Now, if this question had come up five years ago, I’d have probably sworn up and down that Aragorn had all the information he required, and that was all there was to it; now, I have a much broader and deeper appreciation of what Tolkien was doing for 12 years while he wrote Lord of the Rings: this is a very detailed story, and sometimes, we the readers only see the surface elements, but not what’s happening underneath.

I think a Warg is physical critter: they’re very large, ferocious wolves that goblins rode like horses, right? But they eat, they drink, and they reproduce in the normal way that all other living things eat, drink, and reproduce. They have bodies, and when they’re killed, those bodies are left behind: Beorn could nail their skins to a tree, right? There were no bodies left behind on the morning after the fight with the wolves in Hollin. That prompted this comment from Gandalf, which I quote in context so that you can see what I’m talking about:When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas lying on the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was left.

‘It is as I feared,’ said Gandalf. ‘These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!’What does he mean? That wargs are not ordinary wolves, albeit larger and stronger and even more intelligent than a common wolf, that they do not leave physical bodies when they die? Or is he saying that these were not even wargs? I don’t think you can summarily dispense with the notion that Gandalf is saying that all wargs are wolves (but not all wolves are wargs: wargs are a peculiar and especially dangerous kind of wolf), but these were not even wargs: they were something else that he does not care to discuss. Since he doesn’t discuss it, and I personally do not possess a copy of Reader’s Companion, I can’t give you any better answer than that, assuming that there is any light shed upon the subject by Hammond and Scull; but it sounds as if Gandalf is concerned that something else is going on besides an attack by a pack of particularly ferocious wolves.

Of course, that doesn’t answer Butterbeer’s question as to whether the Nine Walkers were simply unobservant, and the wolves or wargs somehow managed to drag all their dead away in the night, first carefully removing all the arrows so that they remained unbroken, and slipped away with their dead and wounded before the Company realized it.

[Ellf]

Alcuin,
I see your point now. Thank you for taking the time to expalin yourself. I have never read it this way before. I've read LOTR more than half a dozen times, and never picked up on the Werewolf idea. Maybe had I read about werewolves after the end of the second age, then maybe I would have contemplated your idea. You see, I don't remeber Tolkien including werewolves after the last great battle of the second age. I only remember reading about Werewolves before then. From the Hobbit down to the Return of the King I don't recall Tolkien describing werewolves.

I thought werewovles were just somehow gone. Whether they were destroyed, died off, or ran far away to Moldova, I honestly thought they were gone. Although, if werewolves did exist in that time of middle earth, wouldn't they have been part of Sauron's army arsenal. I do recall werewolves being very powerful in the Sil. Wouldn't have Sauron used them along with the orcs, Trolls and southron's.

I did read about two new evil creatures in the LOTR never mentioned before. The teredactl looking wringwriath steads, and that creepy octopus thing beneath the waters at the entrance to Moria. Well why not werewolves.

It is a possibility that Gandfalf could be referring to the "canine creatures" as
"hounds of Sauron" because they were in the service of Sauron.
Everything evil in those days was in the service of Sauron. This could be another possibility.

But I understand now that you're not saying that they were werewolves for sure. It's a possibility.

[Alcuin]

On the issue of whether the beasts that attacked the Company of the Ring were wolves, Wargs, or werewolves, I really have no settled opinion. I would like to have one, and I am obtaining a copy of Hammond and Scull’s Reader’s Guide in the hope that I might come closer to finding one.

The obvious first assessment is that these are wargs: Aragorn recognizes them as such, and from his comments, I suspect they had hitherto remained east of the Misty Mountains where he had seen them before. The problem is that there are no dead bodies in the morning, and while Butterbeer is no doubt honestly relating that he always thought they had been dragged off by their wolfy brethren in the night, I do not believe this could have gone unmarked with the whole camp awake and alert for another attack: for one thing, Legolas would not fail to see them even in the dark, nor would Aragorn the Ranger be unlikely fail to notice them; but more importantly, some of the bodies were very near to them, it would seem.

So I have never yet decided what they should have been. But I am on the watch…

[jammi567]

i've looked in the readers companion, and they seem to believe that the animals are Wargs.

[Alcuin]

Well, that’s very interesting. Why did the bodies vanish?

[jammi567]

No-one knows. One of the great mysteries of Middle earth.

[Alcuin]

Well, the Company of the Ring might have been attacked inside the ring of stones that was once the House of the MÃ*rdain in the ruins of Ost-in-Edhil. Maybe the Noldor left behind a magic cleaning crew that was still functioning after 4600 years.

[jammi567]

:D :D :D

[Wayfarer]

Alcuin,
I see your point now. Thank you for taking the time to expalin yourself. I have never read it this way before. I've read LOTR more than half a dozen times, and never picked up on the Werewolf idea. Maybe had I read about werewolves after the end of the second age, then maybe I would have contemplated your idea. You see, I don't remeber Tolkien including werewolves after the last great battle of the second age. I only remember reading about Werewolves before then. From the Hobbit down to the Return of the King I don't recall Tolkien describing werewolves.

I thought werewovles were just somehow gone. Whether they were destroyed, died off, or ran far away to Moldova, I honestly thought they were gone. Although, if werewolves did exist in that time of middle earth, wouldn't they have been part of Sauron's army arsenal. I do recall werewolves being very powerful in the Sil. Wouldn't have Sauron used them along with the orcs, Trolls and southron's.

I did read about two new evil creatures in the LOTR never mentioned before. The teredactl looking wringwriath steads, and that creepy octopus thing beneath the waters at the entrance to Moria. Well why not werewolves.

It is a possibility that Gandfalf could be referring to the "canine creatures" as
"hounds of Sauron" because they were in the service of Sauron.
Everything evil in those days was in the service of Sauron. This could be another possibility.

But I understand now that you're not saying that they were werewolves for sure. It's a possibility.

Werewolves in the traditional sense (men who turn into wolves) don't really appear anywhere in the literature, though of course the example of Beorn the Skin-Changer does indicate that such a thing is entirely possible.Sauron, of course, does change form quite readily in the first age, taking the shape of a Man, then a Wolf, then a vampiric bat-creature. However the 'werewolves' per se are essentially just bigger, meaner, ur-wargs. Draugluin, 'sire of all werewolves (in Beleriand)' was a wolf bred for size and ferocity and possessed or inhabited by an evil spirit in service to Morgoth. (Similarly Huan was a spirit in dog-form in service to Orome.) The fact that his descendants frequently demonstrate intelligence and the ability to speak leads me to believe that his model holds true for most of the wargs - an evil spirit inhabiting a wolf-shaped body.

So, the inkling I have is that the wolves who attacked the fellowship were of this sort - not normal wolves, but evil spirits wrapped in wolf-shape. It is demonstrated repeatedly that Maiar have the ability to create physical bodies for themselves, and I suspect with that being the case the a body could be allowed to dissolve when slain. Indeed, I would point to the example of Feanor, whose body was immolated by his fiery spirit upon death, and of Saruman, whose spirit is described as gathering over his body like smoke. I believe there is a compelling case to be made that those wolves were spirits or demons, and when their bodies were slain they disintegrated and returned to spirit form.

[Ellf]

Wayfarer,

Was not Beorn most likely a descendent of men? Did he not meet with and counsel with great bears? Did he not take on the appearance of a great Bear in the battle of the five armies? I'm sorry to ask, but what does this have to do with evil spirits and werewolves of which Beorn was niether.

When I use the word "Werewolf" I am only describing the traditional werewolf from the Sil. I don't understand why some people decide to include describe other traditions into these threads.

There are a few facts that remain unanwsered...
#1 The only maiar spirits (or from a similar line) that existed in middle earth at that time were the Istari, Sauron and the Balrog. Maiar spirits (or their evil counterparts) were not born from flesh. They were Iluvatar's creation (spirits). So how could wargs (procreated beings like woves) be of the same line. I believe wargs are procreated beings since they were used in "The Hobbit" when Sauron wasn't even powerfull yet. How could wargs just show up when there was no one to trap them in thier bodies?
#2 Werewolves had evil spirits inprisoned inside of them by Sauron (maybe lesser maiar), as did the dragons. I've never read about wargs being inhabited by evil spirits. It is by my understanding (I may be wrong) that wargs would be similar to orcs. Orcs are able to reproduce and are still loyal and dispicable creatures of Sauron. Wargs may have the same capability.
#2 a) Another point is that Morgoth (somehow) created or distorted the werewolves into what they became, and Morgoth (maybe) gave the job of inprisioning an evil spirit (a lesser job) to Sauron. It's never been documented that a Maiar created anything, but a Valar has. As with Aule and the dwarves. Rember that Melkor had gifts and talents of all the Valar, but Sauron was only a Maiar (a most powerful one) who could not create living beings.
#3 Feanor was a special case. He devoured his own mothers spirit when he was born. He fought many Balrogs at the same time. He was one of those once in eternity freaks (special kid) of Iluvatar.
#4 If in fact you are correct about the "werewargish wolves" who disolve after being slain (because they are from some special maiar line), then why weren't they used in battle as the Trolls, and orcs.
WHY NOT? Gandalf even said that had Smaug been alive Sauron would have used him.
#5 Come to think of it, we've never hear or read about werewolves after the first age. Why would they pop back up in the 3rd age? Unless of course they were sleeping like the Balrog. But even if this is so, why wouldn't Sauron use them in battle.
#5 a) One can argue that Sauron did not use the creepy octopus creature in battle, or the Balrog (which was somehow sent to the outer viod or destroyed). But there was only one of them. Not to mention the creepy thing probably only lived in water. So if there's a company (or battalion if you may) of wargs, and they seemed to have a captain (or seargent if you may), and these creatures were disciplined enought to drag away their dead;
then why didn't Sauron use them for battle.


So, would Wayfarer or someone else like to help me with this...

[Landroval]

(Similarly Huan was a spirit in dog-form in service to Orome.)
Actually, Tolkien refutes this idea in Myths Transformed:
The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fear.
The fact that his descendants frequently demonstrate intelligence and the ability to speak leads me to believe that his model holds true for most of the wargs - an evil spirit inhabiting a wolf-shaped body.
Ability to speak is not a sign of a rational soul (fea) - same source:
In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea
Was not Beorn most likely a descendent of men?
Indeed:
Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man.
When I use the word "Werewolf" I am only describing the traditional werewolf from the Sil.
What would you describe as the "traditional werewolf from the Sil"??
The only maiar spirits (or from a similar line) that existed in middle earth at that time were the Istari, Sauron and the Balrog
The only _mentioned_ maiar.
It's never been documented that a Maiar created anything, but a Valar has
Only Eru can create souls, nobody else can.
As with Aule and the dwarves.
Aule made "puppets", Eru gave them true, independent life.
then why didn't Sauron use them for battle.
One reason would be that not all of Sauron's underlings can perform successfully during daytime.

[Earniel]

So, the inkling I have is that the wolves who attacked the fellowship were of this sort - not normal wolves, but evil spirits wrapped in wolf-shape.
I must say I like the idea, and it would explain the disappearance of the bodies. Although if one continues the analogy with Fëanor and Saruman, logically the wolf-bodies would have to disappear almost immediately after being slain. Such an occurance would then normally not have been missed by the Fellowship. Still, it's an interesting idea, foul spirits in the shape of wolves.

[Alcuin]

A werewolf, or loup garou, is an idea that developed in medieval France. During the Little Ice Age, while the Black Death was affecting southeastern France in particular, there were apparently wolf-packs that attacked villages, and there were also lone wolves who attacked people. During this same period, there were witch-scares and witch-hunts throughout Europe (possibly instigated through the after-effects of ergot outbreaks in the wet, soggy wheatfields). There were also scattered reports of cannibalism due to famine.

One of the notions that began at that time was that people were turning into wolves during full moons and attacking people. There is a documented case from the late 1500s that I recall of a man in France who was ill and sought treatment from a woman who was what we would call an herbalist. This woman, who was not, of course, trained at one of the medical universities, treated him with an unguent, or medicated cream. The man claimed that this cream turned him into a wolf, in which shape he was accused of the murder of several people. He was tried and convicted of these crimes.

The myth of lycanthropy also seems to have arisen in medieval France: this is a contagion, a disease if you will, in which one person can be infected by another. This might be a misinterpretation of rabies, which does cause those infected to become mad, at which point they will indeed attempt to bite others, who may become infected and suffer a similar fate. You should bear in mind that at this stage of human history, diseases were commonly believed to be caused by evil spirits: the dwarfs and elves of medieval literature are not the noble Durin’s Folk or Exiled Noldor, but mischievous or evil creatures that caused blight, illness, miscarriage, headache, dementia, and any number of human afflictions: that lycanthropy was a disease with a curse that might affect the soul should not be seen as out of the mainstream of medieval thought: it was the mainstream of the beliefs of the common folk.

Tolkien is not drawing on any of these traditions, as far as I can tell. His werewolves are of an entirely different sort. He describes “evil spirits� that entered into animal forms and manifested supernatural powers through those forms. The werewolves of Middle-earth were one of these manifestations, such as Draugluin, Carcharoth, and even werewolf-Sauron. Another might be the dragons. In The Shaping of Middle-earth, there is the evil Boldog, a fallen Maia in the form of a mighty orc-captain. I have seen an excellent argument (not my own, but I will admit that I ascribe to it) that the barrow-wights of Tyrn Gorthad were the spirits of fallen Elves that had been sent by the Witch-king to inhabit the corpses of the interred Dúnedain.

The basis for this is from Morgoth’s Ring, in “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)�, “Of Death and the Severance of Fëa and Hröa�, in which it is stated that the spirits of Elves who die are summoned to Mandos, but that they may refuse the summons; but that so refusing to face the Valar was a sign of taint, and subjected the Elven-spirit to a summons by Morgoth (and apparently later by Sauron). Houseless Elves wander the earth, looking for bodies, which they are willing to steal from the Living (even from Men) if they can.Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one’s own will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.-|-

Afterthought:

Beorn is described in terms similar to a Norse berserker. Berserkers are attested in many Dark Age and early medieval documents as warriors possessed of immense strength and agility, immune to pain, fighting without regard to their lives or safety. Modern folk often attribute this condition to the use of psychoactive plants or funguses, or to dismiss it altogether as myth; Dark Age and early medieval rulers and clergy did not have that luxury: they were outlawed in Norway in the early 11th century, and later in Iceland as well. Until then, groups of berserkers banded together, howling, banging their helmets with their weapons and shields, biting their shields, to reach a bloodlust feared by friend and foe alike.

berserkr is Old Norse for “bear shirt.� Berserkers sometimes took names combined with the Old Norse word for “bear� – björn – in them. I think it is Tolkien’s clear intent to paint Beorn as a classic berserker, not a lycanthrope.

[Landroval]

The werewolves are reffered to only in passing in the The lay of the children of Hurin (the wolves that sleep not, that sit in circles with slavering tongues round camp or clearing of the cruel Glamhoth). The most comprehensive description in them appears in The lay of Leithian, HoME III:
Master of Wolves, whose shivering howl
for ever echoed in the hills, and foul
enchantments and dark sigaldry
did weave and wield. In glamoury
that necromancer held his hosts
of phantoms and of wandering ghosts,
of misbegotten or spell-wronged
monsters that about him thronged,
working his bidding dark and vile:
the werewolves of the Wizard's Isle.

[Alcuin]

i've looked in the readers companion, and they seem to believe that the animals are Wargs.jammi567, I’m not taking you to task, but think about this: How you did arrive at the conclusion that Hammond and Scull suggested these were Wargs? On p 276, my copy readsHound of Sauron – Hound is used here in the general sense of ‘canine.’ As told in The Silmarillion, Sauron was of old ‘lord of werewolves’…(At least I came to the same quotation as H & S. I just got a copy of Reader’s Guide, and this is the first thing I’ve looked up.)

Then they quoteNaur an edraith amen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth! – ‘Fire save us! Fire drive back the werewolves!’and they proceed to cite Carl Hostetter. (I do not have the citation.)

If you are relying upon the “‘canine’� reference to adduce that these are wolves or their Warg cousins, I’m not certain that’s a good conclusion, since werewolves are also like hounds in appearance. I think that Hammond and Scull are not willing to definitely say that these are werewolves, but they seem to be suggesting that they are. First, they cite that “Sauron was of old ‘lord of werewolves’�, then they quite properly cite the translation of Gandalf’s Sindarin as “‘Fire save us! Fire drive back the werewolves!’� It sure sounds to me as if they think these are werewolves, but cannot find material in the corpus of Tolkien’s writings to prove it.

[jammi567]

jammi567, I’m not taking you to task, but think about this: How you did arrive at the conclusion that Hammond and Scull suggested these were Wargs?
Looking back, i have no idea. :) :rolleyes:

[Alcuin]

I read it in one of my books. But it's been a while and I realise I don't remember enough. I'll have to research it again and get back to you on this.Thank you! I hang around forums looking for this kind of stuff.
Looking back, i have no idea.Better your friends at Entmoot rather than your professor at University. We all do it. * ducks *

[jammi567]

That's true, i guess.

[Earniel]

The side-discussion about Beorn has been moved to it's own thread in the Hobbit-forum: The origin of Beorn (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=13398).

[Wayfarer]

If you are relying upon the “‘canine’� reference to adduce that these are wolves or their Warg cousins, I’m not certain that’s a good conclusion, since werewolves are also like hounds in appearance. I think that Hammond and Scull are not willing to definitely say that these are werewolves, but they seem to be suggesting that they are. First, they cite that “Sauron was of old ‘lord of werewolves’�, then they quite properly cite the translation of Gandalf’s Sindarin as “‘Fire save us! Fire drive back the werewolves!’� It sure sounds to me as if they think these are werewolves, but cannot find material in the corpus of Tolkien’s writings to prove it.

Well, what's the difference?

Wolves are wolves.
Wargs are big wolves that can talk.
'Werewolves' like Dragluin are really big wolves that can talk.

By using 'ngaurhoth' (which I believe etymologically comes out to 'Wolf Host'), Gandalf could be referring to any of the above. It's not a specific categorical label, but a broad statement of type - supernatural wolf-creatures in service to Sauron.

[Landroval]

Wargs are big wolves that can talk.
'Werewolves' like Dragluin are really big wolves that can talk.
Werewolves are more than that:
Therefore and army was sent against him under the command of Sauron; and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.
By using 'ngaurhoth' (which I believe etymologically comes out to 'Wolf Host'), Gandalf could be referring to any of the above.
Tol-in-Gaurhoth is translated all over the Sil. as island of the (host of the) werewolves. Moreover:
gaur: werewolf (from a root ngwaw- howl) in Tol-in-Gaurhoth

[Wayfarer]

Yes, I am aware of that. The fact that 'werewolves' are wolves possessed by spirits was the very first thing I brought up.

What has not been established in any way, shape, or form, is what exactly the difference is supposed to be between a 'werewolf' and a plain old 'warg.' There is very little to distinguish the large, intelligent, demonic wolf-beasts in the Silmarillion from the large, intelligent, demonic wolf-beasts that appear in The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. If you want to establish that these are 'werewolves, not wargs' then it is necessary that you first demonstrate that the two are in fact different things.

Otherwise you may as well have Orc of one and Goblin of another.

[Landroval]

It seems highly unlikely to me that werewolves, being as they are - possesed, have the capacity to reproduce, or that their offsprings are werewolves too. Moreover, they are mentioned as separate from one another at least once, in FotR:
Not all his servants and chattels are wraiths! There are orcs and trolls, there are wargs and werewolves

[Ellf]

Landroval,
I couldn't agree with you more!

[jammi567]

Landroval, if what you say is true, what do you think attacked the fellowship that night?

[Landroval]

I am going with werewolves

[jammi567]

That could make sense, if they are animals filled with dreadful spirits, that the body disappears when that animal dies. i mean, look what happens to saruman at the end of the book.

[Wayfarer]

It seems highly unlikely to me that werewolves, being as they are - possesed, have the capacity to reproduce, or that their offsprings are werewolves too. Moreover, they are mentioned as separate from one another at least once, in FotR:

That's not really a compelling argument - Orcs and Goblins are also mentioned seperately too, and we know that they refer to the same species. To further complicate matters, in the very scene under discussion the creatures are referred to as both 'wargs' by Aragon and 'nguarhoth (or werewolves)' by Gandalf. The fact that the (presumably) Westron Warg and the Sindarin Ngaurhoth are used to refer to the same creatures doesn't really support the idea that the two are different creatures.

Furthermore, your speculative skepticism as to whether Werewolves can reproduce seems to be in direct contradiction to the various statements in the Silmarillion that Draugluin was the 'Sire of Werewolves,' that Carcharoth was of his brood, and that all other werewolves are descended from him.

What I am asserting is that the word 'Warg' - a large, evil wolf - is not sufficiently specific to differentiate it from 'Werewolf' - a large, evil wolf. We know for certain that the first-age werewolves were the product of demonic spirits trapped in wolf bodies, but the origins of the third-age Wargs are not clear enough to say how different they are. Trying to distinguish whether they are 'werewolves' or 'just wargs' is an excercise in futility, because at most one is a subset of the other.

[jammi567]

So you're basically saying that they're one and the same.

[Butterbeer]

Yes and, of course, no.

But i fear, mr Jams, you miss the point!

[jammi567]

what point have i missed, mr butterbeer?

[Butterbeer]

Point, singular, Mr Jams? :D

[Wayfarer]

I am saying that they could be one and the same, they could be something different, and that there is not enough information given to make a definitive call one way or the other. I would certainly be willing to argue that projecting from Draugluin -> Werewolves -> Wargs fits a general pattern which we see elsewhere in Middle Earth wherein beings exist of the same basic type but of diminished magnitude, for example Ungoliant -> Shelob -> Spiders of Mirkwood, Thorondor -> Gwaihir, or Ancalagorn -> Smaug.

I do not claim to know exactly what the creatures in question are, and since none of the other examples of 'Evil Wolves' in the text demonstrate the peculiar quality of vanishing after death I still think the most likely possibility is that they were something different in the same vein. Phantoms conjured by Sauron or evil spirits manifesting (as opposed to posessing) wolf bodies.

[Butterbeer]

Or of course as Gandalf and the highly experienced ranger of the wild Aragorn and vast experience of the company over many years of men and dwarves and millenia of elves etc all seemed clearly absolutely certain on the matter , as indeed did ol' JRR -

they could be wargs. :rolleyes:

AS, i think, Wayfarer agrees, it is thus a different question indeed, as to what exactly wargs are.

But wargs are wargs and werewolfs ... yes, you guessed it, are werewolfs.

If you wish to redefine the term or delve into it's wider historical or potential meaning, fine.

Otherwise .... did domeone mention futility? ;)

[jammi567]

so they are either a sub-species of wargs etc, or they weren't there at all, because they were phantoms, either conjured up by saruman or sauron.

[Butterbeer]

No, they were wargs.

lest we want thus to conjecture that say, gandalf was a vampire, that Elrond a Gnome and that Galadriel may have been a Fairy - lots of anetdocal (sp!) evidence for all three. Does this make an apple not an apple though?

[jammi567]

You've got me there.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No, they were wargs.

lest we want thus to conjecture that say, gandalf was a vampire, that Elrond a Gnome and that Galadriel may have been a Fairy - lots of anetdocal (sp!) evidence for all three. Does this make an apple not an apple though?

'Tis Anecdotal.

I'm very curious; what evidence exactly have you, anecdotal or otherwise, that Gandalf was a Vampire?

[jammi567]

he was kidding.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I know; that was a joke, as well. :)

[Landroval]

I have checked with the HoME versions; it seems that they were wargs after all, according to Chris:
The episode of the attack by the Wargs enters in this text, and reached virtually the final form outright, with relatively little correction in the course of composition
…
My father had said that six nights before, the first night march of the Company from Hollin, the Moon was 'almost at the full' ('at the full', FR); and on the previous night, when the Wargs attacked again, 'the night was old, and westward the waning moon was setting' (so also in FR)

[jammi567]

I guess that if we can't solve it using the books, then we'll have to use the next best thing.