remorse for bad guys?

[Arien the Maia]

does anyone here feel any sort of sorrow or remorse for the "bad guys" of Middle EArth? I know I do. I totally have a soft spot in my heart for Feanor and for Sauron as well. I am convinced that something horrible had to have happened for Sauron to have joined Morgoth/Melkor. I am convinced!!! :D

[Lizra]

Not me! :D I hate em...they can all go to that crazy place called....hell! :p I like the good guys, evil=BORING! :)

[katya]

I usually do have pity on the bad guys but Melkor for example just doesn't leave much room for my to like him. I always thought of LotR as being a story where in particular I mostly loved the good guys and hated the bad guys. I can at some points find reasons why I would respect some of them, but generally not at all.

Now of course I don't think of Feanor as a bad guy. If he was to be considered a bad guy then yes, I do feel sympathy for him. I love him. -_-

[BeardofPants]

I have a lot of sympathy for Feanor and Smeagol. and I love Feanor as well. ;)

[Grey_Wolf]

Fëanor wasn't really a bad guy, just misguided by Sauron, who was a thoroughly bad guy.

[orithil]

Yeah i kind of understand what happened to feanor i just read his story.

[Landroval]

I am convinced that something horrible had to have happened for Sauron to have joined Morgoth/Melkor.
In the immortal words of Al Pacino, "free will ... is a bitch" :D (err, can I say that?)
He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)
Fëanor wasn't really a bad guy, just misguided by Sauron, who was a thoroughly bad guy.
I am so sure you meant Melkor, not Sauron ;).

[Gordis]

Well, as you all know, I do like the nazgul - very much so. :)

Apart from that, I do feel pity for Melkor himself. He was the most creative guy among the Ainur, and he was never appreciated by his envious colleagues. Neither was he approved by daddy-Eru in anything he did.

Feanor is a similar case, too talented and fiery for his own good.

Sauron seems more of a cold calculating evil type, so less appealing to me.

Saruman I thoroughly dislike. He is a traitor and a double traitor to boot.

Barlogs never had much choice - lesser spirits faithful to Melkor.


Who else there is?

[Grey_Wolf]

In the immortal words of Al Pacino, "free will ... is a bitch" :D (err, can I say that?)


I am so sure you meant Melkor, not Sauron ;).

But wasn't it Sauron who walked around causing the winter of the elves' discotent, not Melkor who was still making grabs for everything in ME at the time.

[katya]

I don't know man, I always remember it saying Feanor was decieved by the lies of Melkor, not Sauron. Wasn't it Melkor that turned him against the Valar and Fingolfin and all that? It's been kind of a while for me reading but I don't remember much of what Sauron was up to at the time.

[Grey_Wolf]

Well, it's been a while since i read the Sil too, so I might be wrong.

[BeardofPants]

It was Morgoth.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I have no love loss for Sauron or any other immortal. The only 'bad guy' I feel true remorse for is Smeagol. Poor, poor Smeagol. Here's a guy out fishin' with his bestest buddie when they come across the most evil thing in all of Middle-Earth. It causes him to kill his friend, spy on his family and such, and turns him into a twisted being. His only wish was to catch a fish, so juicy sweet, you know. ;)

[Arien the Maia]

Well, as you all know, I do like the nazgul - very much so. :)

Apart from that, I do feel pity for Melkor himself. He was the most creative guy among the Ainur, and he was never appreciated by his envious colleagues. Neither was he approved by daddy-Eru in anything he did.

Feanor is a similar case, too talented and fiery for his own good.

Sauron seems more of a cold calculating evil type, so less appealing to me.



I always felt that Melkor deserved NO sympathy. I don't think that he has ever wanted "good for good's sake". I'm not sure what he ever did that deserved praise from Eru.
now Sauron....as was mentioned, he loved order (not evil in itself) and was for the most part seduced by Melkor. (this of course makes me dislike Melkor all the more while my sympathy for Sauron increases) He also felt remorse for his allegience to Melkor as well as his actions at the end of the War of Wrath. Melkor feigned his remorse for his evil works.
As we all know, I am in absolute LOVE with Feanor so I could never see him as a "bad guy"! :D seriously though, he was brilliant and ....once again...Melkor proves to be the downfall of yet another great being.
Free Will....hmmm....although I do believe in it, I just think that sometimes people do what they do b/c they have been brainwashed. does that make sense?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I have a lot of sympathy for Feanor and Smeagol.

Same here. Feanor is really cool, and Smeagol is a pitiable creature.

Free Will....hmmm....although I do believe in it, I just think that sometimes people do what they do b/c they have been brainwashed.

Don't believe in it too much, Arien dear; that way lies heresy. ;)

[Arien the Maia]

Don't believe in it too much, Arien dear; that way lies heresy. ;)

how is that? :confused:

[Grey_Wolf]

It was Morgoth.

Thanks, BoP!:)

[The Telcontarion]

Feanor was indeed good, but was corrupted and made desperate by morgoth's lies and murder of his father; how crazy would you get it that happened to you, who's father was first in aman to have their blood spilled in violence.

I always wished I could smite morgoth myself, and sauron, and maeglin and saruman; sympathy, for them, never!!!

I will say the only characters that did evil deeds, that a feel sympathy for are Maedhros and Maglor. Killing Dior was an evil deed (how could they) and attacking Elwing at the havens was another. But we all know that being the elder sons of their father they felt it was up to them honor their father's wishes and hold to the oath what e'er the cost.

Olorin should have fried worm tongue where he slithered, pathetic wretch.

PS. OK, maybe denethor needs sympathy too, maybe, but just; he almost killed Faramir for Eru's sake.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

how is that? :confused:

Believing in free will is correct, but only to a certain extent. Distinctions must be made. In freewill vs. Predestination, Catholic doctrine is closer to (true) Calvinism than to, say, Methodism. I'll see what I can dig up, and PM/email you.

[Landroval]

Neither was he approved by daddy-Eru in anything he did.
If Melkor was just an instrument in Eru's hand, cf Ainulindale, then how can your statement be true? Melkor as doing Eru's will is even more clearly stated in the BoLT versions.

[Arien the Maia]

Believing in free will is correct, but only to a certain extent. Distinctions must be made. In freewill vs. Predestination, Catholic doctrine is closer to (true) Calvinism than to, say, Methodism. I'll see what I can dig up, and PM/email you.

thanks :)

[Butterbeer]

Believing in free will is correct, but only to a certain extent. Distinctions must be made. In freewill vs. Predestination, Catholic doctrine is closer to (true) Calvinism than to, say, ....

... i thought you were going to say 'Hobbes' then ... ;)

[Arien the Maia]

If Melkor was just an instrument in Eru's hand, cf Ainulindale, then how can your statement be true? Melkor as doing Eru's will is even more clearly stated in the BoLT versions.


the big problem that I have with Melkor is that he was created the greatest of the Ainur but he was not lord of them. That title and job belonged to Manwe. I think that is why he was just plain peeved! :)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

... i thought you were going to say 'Hobbes' then ... ;)

Bah. Hobbes is too much of a pessimist. :p

[Landroval]

the big problem that I have with Melkor is that he was created the greatest of the Ainur but he was not lord of them. That title and job belonged to Manwe.
I don't think his primary goal was supremacy over the Ainur, but over the Children and Arda - that is what led them to war.

[The Telcontarion]

Well the silmarillion did say he wanted to be the master of his peers. I think it said he wanted them to give him fealty, was the term used if I remember correctly.

[brownjenkins]

I think the biggest problem is that Eru gave Melkor freewill, didn't give him any guidelines on how he wanted it to be used, then got angry when it was used in a way he did not appreciate.

Basically, in creating Melkor, Eru created a being that was too much like himself but was not willing to treat him as such.

[Butterbeer]

Bah. Hobbes is too much of a pessimist. :p

really?

wot hobbes from calvin an hobbes? :D


..as opposed to the philosopher ...

[Gordis]

I think the biggest problem is that Eru gave Melkor freewill, didn't give him any guidelines on how he wanted it to be used, then got angry when it was used in a way he did not appreciate.

Basically, in creating Melkor, Eru created a being that was too much like himself but was not willing to treat him as such.
Yes, I agree with you. Eru dousn't seem to favour people with freewill, like Melkor, Feanor or most of the Edain.

He gave them the option himself but grows angry when they use it. ;)

[Landroval]

Well the silmarillion did say he wanted to be the master of his peers. I think it said he wanted them to give him fealty, was the term used if I remember correctly.
Not exactly; here is the passage I think you are reffering to:
For he coveted Arda and all that was in it, desiring the kingship of Manwe and dominion over the realms of his peers.
The point in question is ruling Arda.
I think the biggest problem is that Eru gave Melkor freewill, didn't give him any guidelines on how he wanted it to be used, then got angry when it was used in a way he did not appreciate.
I don't know why you say Eru was angry at Melkor - as I pointed previously, he was but an instrument.
Eru dousn't seem to favour people with freewill, like Melkor, Feanor or most of the Edain.
How come Eru didn't favour the Edain? They are his children, his purpose is their joy. Even Melkor and Feanor may be said to have had, at times, the times of their lives ;).

[Gordis]

How come Eru didn't favour the Edain? They are his children, his purpose is their joy.
That's why he drowned his children like unwanted kittens by millions?

[Landroval]

That's why he drowned his children like unwanted kittens by millions?
Your poor kittens enslaved their peers, tortured them, offered them as sacrifice to Melkor, slew each other in madness, were heedless to any kind of message ... as I stated previously, they were most likely unredeeemable in their corruption. Just as Eru reduces the lifespan of all Men when they started worshipping Melkor so to see who is their real Lord, he also saves the numenoreans from an evil they were not able anymore to overcome (maybe not even if they willed it). As Tolkien stated:
A divine 'punishment' is also a divine 'gift', if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make 'punishments' (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained

[Gordis]

Yea... right... saving by killing.

But just don't tell me that "his purpose is their joy"

Eru killed almost all the numenoreans, likely his "favourite" human race, he abandoned all the rest of the Edain who remained in ME during the Second Age to Sauron's darkness.

His gift... let us call it "highly questionable." It is not a great gift if 99.9 percent of Men do not see it as such. ;)

I think I have reason enough to say that Eru didn't favour the race of Men.

[Landroval]

Yea... right... saving by killing.
I presume you have some better way of dealing with the most corrupt and oppressive society known at that time; would you like to share it with us?
likely his "favourite" human race
I wasn't aware some human races were more favourite than others to Eru.
he abandoned all the rest of the Edain who remained in ME during the Second Age to Sauron's darkness.
Seeing that everything depends on every moment on Eru (cf Atrabeth), your statement is hardly the case.
His gift... let us call it "highly questionable." It is not a great gift if 99.9 percent of Men do not see it as such.
Could you be more exact? If you are reffering to the numenoreans, I can assure you a lot of people saw their dissappearance as a gift; most likely, they did too, after their eyes were opened, sort of speaking.
I think I have reason enough to say that Eru didn't favour the race of Men.
Then you seem to miss the point of evil in Arda; suffering and toiling against it is part of the condition of Men, their part in devising the beauty of creation.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

His gift... let us call it "highly questionable." It is not a great gift if 99.9 percent of Men do not see it as such. ;)

Yeah, because 99.9 percent of Men A) are not stupid and B) know EXACTLY what the gift entails after passing out of Ea.

[Tulkas]

i dont feel sorry for morgoth and sauron, but feanor, i GUESS, has a purpose for his actions due to his fathers death and morgoth stealing the silmarils, but he could of done it in a better way so i have no remorse for the bad guys.

[Rían]

now Sauron....as was mentioned, he loved order (not evil in itself) and was for the most part seduced by Melkor. But I think he loved order for the sake of control, not peace. And you're only seduced by things you want to be seduced by; that's why that thing can seduce you!

Fëanor was indeed good, but was corrupted and made desperate by morgoth's lies and murder of his father; how crazy would you get it that happened to you, who's father was first in aman to have their blood spilled in violence. Feanor will have a lot to answer for, but I also think he'll have a lot of slack given to him because of the terrible tragedies that happened to him.


If Melkor was just an instrument in Eru's hand, cf Ainulindale, then how can your statement be true? Melkor as doing Eru's will is even more clearly stated in the BoLT versions.But I think the difference is that Melkor was an unwilling instrument. Just shows how much Eru rocks!

[Arien the Maia]

But I think he loved order for the sake of control, not peace. And you're only seduced by things you want to be seduced by; that's why that thing can seduce you!

but did he not want to help the Elves of Eregion in the beginning of his "instruction"? I dont' think he always wanted to control things. I guess that's just my opinion :cool:

[Rían]

It seemed that he wanted to help them in order to use them later on, but maybe I'm reading in too much - it's been awhile since I read that!

[Arien the Maia]

It seemed that he wanted to help them in order to use them later on, but maybe I'm reading in too much - it's been awhile since I read that!

hmmm...maybe....but, it does say that he was sorry for what he did and desired to repent and receive his judgement but he was too ashamed of what he had done so he fled.

[Rían]

... i thought you were going to say 'Hobbes' then ... ;)LOL! :D

I think the biggest problem is that Eru gave Melkor freewill, didn't give him any guidelines on how he wanted it to be used, then got angry when it was used in a way he did not appreciate.
first section - yes ...
second part - Didn't give him any guidelines? An assumption, dear Watson! And they could have always asked, anyway.
third part - well, of course, the question is, is that anger justified? The question is this: what was Melkor's motive? And IMO, his motives are pretty clearly wrong (i.e., tootin' his own horn at the expense of others).

Basically, in creating Melkor, Eru created a being that was too much like himself but was not willing to treat him as such. But Manwe didn't have the problems that Melkor had, and he was almost the same as Melkor. And a created being can NEVER be higher than his creator; that's not vanity, it's just a simple fact. Eru can't create Melkor and then say, "OK, you're the creator!"

[Rían]

hmmm...maybe....but, it does say that he was sorry for what he did and desired to repent and receive his judgement but he was too ashamed of what he had done so he fled.I'm rusty on that - where was that again? I need to re-read it. I had always taken it as he was more ashamed and sorry at being caught than at having done it, though.

[Arien the Maia]

I'm rusty on that - where was that again? I need to re-read it. I had always taken it as he was more ashamed and sorry at being caught than at having done it, though.

it's in 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'. although I suppose there are many interpretations that can be made in the statements that describe Sauron's repentence.

[Rían]

thanks! I think it might be somewhere in HoME, too - I'll check next week when (hopefully) I have more time!

[Arien the Maia]

thanks! I think it might be somewhere in HoME, too - I'll check next week when (hopefully) I have more time!

I looked in Morgoth's ring but couldn't find anything (of course I didn't look too well :rolleyes: b/c I'm lazy!) I wish I had the whole set of HoME!