How many balrogs were there?

[Gil-Galad 2.0]

Well, how many are there? I have heard that there where only seven and I've also heard that there were thousands. If anyone has a qoute that is usfull please post it.

[orithil]

the silmarillion said melkor used them in wars so there would be hundreds

[jammi567]

in the early stories, there were thousands upon thousands. but then, tolkien changed his mind (he was always doing this :) ), and said there were only a total of seven, including the one in moria, one killed in the battle of gondolin, and one killed by glorfindal in the mountains, shortly after the battle.

[The Telcontarion]

Certainly not seven, as in the "Unfinished Tales," in the recount of the fall of Gondolin alone, their where at least 20. And that was only a fraction of his army.

[jammi567]

where did you get twenty from?

[BeardofPants]

From Morgoth's ring : (Annals of Aman): "In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'" Kinda hard to draw the line though, as the numbers went up and down throughout the development of Middle-earth, starting off in the thousands in BoLT. The Silm is not clear, and should not be taken as canon anyway as Christopher Tolkien perhaps did not do the *best* editing job ever. However, it is possible to postulate that as the development of the legendariam of Middle-earth progressed, and the balrog moved from merely henchmen to maiar status, Tolkien may have thought to limit their numbers to indicate their new formidable status (and it is at this point that the Umaiar concept was introduced whereby they 'followed' Morgoth, and were no longer his creations).

[jammi567]

i thought so.

[Gil-Galad 2.0]

Sorry, I know you people like acronyms but what does, BoLT, stand for?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Book of Lost Tales.

[BeardofPants]

Yep, Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2 - the first 2 in the Histories of Middle Earth series. :)

[jammi567]

yep, first two in a series of 12.

[Butterbeer]

ok then ... so just who killed 'em all? :p ;)

[The Telcontarion]

where did you get twenty from?

In BOLT 2, in the sack of gondolin, it is said that when turgon entered the battle he and his house killed 2 score (20) balrogs. Before that tuor had killed 5 and ecthelion 3. The house of the hammer had killed as much before they were completely destroyed, just by the wording of that whole batlle.

So I would say there where alot more than 20 balrogs and that was just those morgoth sent for sack of that fair sity.

[durinsbane2244]

ok then ... so just who killed 'em all?

*indignant* a very mean person who attacks in a dishonorly manner, as that's the only way to take us out...at least, me...ha! like you could take me out anyway... :rolleyes:


barliman...

:p

[BeardofPants]

Does anyone else wanna explain to Telcontarion exactly why the numbers drawn from BoLT are problematic?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

In BOLT 2, in the sack of gondolin, it is said that when turgon entered the battle he and his house killed 2 score (20) balrogs. Before that tuor had killed 5 and ecthelion 3. The house of the hammer had killed as much before they were completely destroyed, just by the wording of that whole batlle.

So I would say there where alot more than 20 balrogs and that was just those morgoth sent for sack of that fair sity.

Well, if we're going to take that as canon, which I don't think we can, that's 48 right there.

Personally, my maxim for such matters is "the later the better". I find that as a whole, the changes in Tolkien's work over time were genuine development, so I will stick by Morgoth's Rings 'three or at most seven'.

[Butterbeer]

Does anyone else wanna explain to Telcontarion exactly why the numbers drawn from BoLT are problematic?


*looks over shoulder at BoP*
nah ... i am too busy repeatedly bashin ol Big bals here on da head fer calling me barliman ( which is my rpg character not me good self, else i wouldna mind)

*bash*
*starts to whistle*
*bash*
"whistle while you work ...."
*bash*

[The Telcontarion]

*looks over shoulder at BoP*
nah ... i am too busy repeatedly bashin ol Big bals here on da head fer calling me barliman ( which is my rpg character not me good self, else i wouldna mind)

*bash*
*starts to whistle*
*bash*
"whistle while you work ...."
*bash*

barliman? Hah!! Nice nickname, you can also call me The Tar Minyaturion.

[Ellf]

in the early stories, there were thousands upon thousands. but then, tolkien changed his mind (he was always doing this :) ), and said there were only a total of seven, including the one in moria, one killed in the battle of gondolin, and one killed by glorfindal in the mountains, shortly after the battle.

I am curious, where did Tolkien write that there were a total of 7 Balrogs?

[jammi567]

Have a look at post 6 for an answer.

[Ellf]

Well, how many are there? I have heard that there where only seven and I've also heard that there were thousands. If anyone has a qoute that is usfull please post it.

I apologize that I don't have a qoute, but what I do remember is that no one since the beginning of Arda was allowed (or knew how to) create a spirit but Iluvatar alone. The anwser is quite simple if we understand who the author is and where he got his ideas from. As we know the author was a linguist and studied the ancient writings of the Celts, Norse, and most important the Torah(bible). The bible interested JRRT very much since he was a devoted Catholic. If you look at the first chapter in the Silmarilion it is very closely related to the teachings of the Judaic and Christian teachings of the creation of Angelic beings and of the revolt of the mightiest of all the beings (Melkor). We understand in the Bible that Lucifer brought out of heaven 1/3 of the angelic beings. According to these teachingings these angelic beings transformed into "demon". Not by Lucifer's power but by there unwise, unprudent, and rash choice.

Well, we can't say that Melkor created any spirits. There is no proof of that. A Balrog was a spirit of fire (a demon). The word "demon" is used more than once in the Silmarilion. It's safe to say then that a balrog was once a Maia which by it was trasformed into something sinister, not by Melkor's power but by the choice to follow Melkor. In the end Iluvatar was directly responsible for this change in the Maia appearance. How did Melkor's appearance change, or Sauron's? It wasn't by creation, it was by choice to follow evil.

In several passages in the Silmarillion it is written that Melkor created "fleshy" beings (Trolls vs. Ents, Orcs vs. Elves etc.) like dragons. He never created a spririt. Melkor definately had powers over the unclean and evil spirits who follwed him and paid obedience to him. He would fill these flesh bodies with evil spirits whom he controlled. These spirits were created clean in the beginning by Iluvatar.

This is not to say that all of the Maia (and lesser Maia) were balrogs. Sauron was a maia and he was not a balrog. He was a Spirit much more powerful than balrogs. But if Melkor did succeed to take a huge following (thousands) of these angelic beings away from Iluvatar's presence then it's safe to say that many were balrogs. Not all of course. I doubt there were only seven or even twenty (I doubt the author concieved this). I believe that number was pretty huge. Maybe not thousands, but definately scores. Don't forget that even the balrogs had a captain, Gothmog.

[The Telcontarion]

This is absolutely right and is what I am getting at. I believe them to be hundreds. Certainly not seven.

And even in the silmarillion when I read it, to me it was clear that the balrogs where not made by melkor, the were in the begging maia spirits (Valaraukar). Morgoth did not create any living being, he twisted already existing creators into horrible distortions eg. orcs from elves etc.

However, it was said that the dragons were indeed created from his own flesh, and that when they spoke they spoke with his voice, so they did not have any free will, just mere extensions of himself; even Smaug. This is the closest he ever came to creating independent life.

Much of his origional power went into the dragons.

[Ellf]

This is absolutely right and is what I am getting at. I believe them to be hundreds. Certainly not seven.

And even in the silmarillion when I read it, to me it was clear that the balrogs where not made by melkor, the were in the begging maia spirits (Valaraukar). Morgoth did not create any living being, he twisted already existing creators into horrible distortions eg. orcs from elves etc.

However, it was said that the dragons were indeed created from his own flesh, and that when they spoke they spoke with his voice, so they did not have any free will, just mere extensions of himself; even Smaug. This is the closest he ever came to creating independent life.

Much of his origional power went into the dragons.


"Glarung issued from the gaping doors... Then suddenly he spoke, by the evil spirit that was in him," Silm.

"There the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit... Carcharoth, the Red maw," Silm.

"and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies." Silm.

Here we read even Sauron had wielding power over unclean spirits to imprison them inside beasts.

[Curubethion]

IIRC, it said in the Sil that the "...Seven Balrogs came to rescue Morgoth..." from Ungoliant. (I don't know if I have that quote right...I don't own the Sil, and it's been a while since I read it)
And thousands of Balrogs sounds, well, out of hand. How could Arda survive anything so catastrophous as a rampage of thousands of Balrogs?

[Tulkas]

in The Silmarillion it says thats Feanor battled barlogs and creatures of morgoth for a while before Gothmog, King of the Barlogs, slew him. Based on that information i would have to say there was a lot of barlogs, and like someone said before morgoth used them in battle. AND Eru only knows how many were in the underground caves in Angband.

[Galin]

I'm pretty sure the 1977 constructed Silmarillion remains vague on the question, though we can note some editing by Christopher Tolkien compared to Tolkien's Quenta Silmarillion texts. The published Silmarillion version should be in blue (as far as I know Tolkien himself made no later alterations to these passages):

'Wherefore each embassy came with greater force than was agreed, but Morgoth sent the greater, and they were Balrogs. Maidros was ambushed...' Of The Siege of Angband '... but Morgoth sent the more, and there were Balrogs.' Of The Return of the Noldor

'Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with a host of Balrogs.' Of the Ruin of Beleriand And the Fall of Fingolfin '... named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion.' Of The Ruin Of Beleriand

'There came wolves and serpents, and there came Balrogs one thousand,...' Of the Fourth Battle: NÃ*rnaith Arnediad 'There came wolves and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons...' Of The Fifth Battle

So, unless I've missed something, these passages altered by Christopher Tolkien keep the numbers unclear, or at least he edits out references that speak to large numbers. But (as has been noted in the thread) JRRT did himself make a later revision to a different text, the Annals of Aman (a reference to Balrogs when Utumno had its gates broken). Basically for a long time Tolkien imagined there were many Balrogs, and at the end of Quenta Silmarillion they were destroyed, save some few that escaped. This line was retained in the published Silmarillion -- though here it had not been revealed there were necessarily hosts or thousands to begin with.

Perhaps as Balrogs grew in power and importance in Tolkien's imagination, he considered that thousands would have been too much even in the First Age. Even after he had written the Balrog encounter in The Lord of the Rings JRRT still imagined there were many. The timing according to Christopher Tolkien (despite that he can't be certain about it) seems likely to me: Tolkien wrote Annals of Aman (AAm) and Grey Annals (GA) at about the same time, early 1950s -- lots of Balrogs in both. JRRT then expresses in a later letter that he intends to get copies made of copyable material -- has copies made (by a typist) of AAm, LQS, GA (with carbon copies), and possibly around 1958 makes a marginal note on AAm (quoted below), and revises 'host' of Balrogs.

So whatever texts remained unrevised in the Later Quenta Silmarillion (LQS), it's hard to say if not revising these means approval in all cases. Anyway here's the text to AAm: 'It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken and its halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained...' The Annals of Aman. However 'a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained' was altered by JRRT to 'his Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained faithful to him' and Christopher Tolkien explained: 'In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'

Essentially I think Christopher Tolkien kept both ideas 'possible' for the one volume published version. One might argue that the passage concerning the War of Wrath might be somewhat odd in phrasing if indeed seven were all that ever existed -- since we might suppose that Glorfindel and Ecthelion had already killed one each, begging the question how many were slain at the War of Wrath if: 'The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves...'

But again, that was originally written when the concept included very many Balrogs, and Tolkien himself never got around to truly updating this section of Quenta Silmarillion. If his note to AAm was going to be true, JRRT arguably had some revising to do, though we can't be sure he was going to give an exact number in any case. The numbers of the marginal note wouldn't necessarily be incorporated into the tale proper (and were not in the actual alteration to AAm).

A bit long maybe :D but that's my take on it.