the twenty rings of power

[jammi567]

what was essentually so special about them, really? afterall, all they did was to distroy peoples lives once sauron tampered with then by making the one ring to rule them all. so why keep them when you know that you can't use them to their full potential because your eminy knows about them?

[Butterbeer]

were they so easy to take off though?

especially after Sauron made the one and began to exert control over them!

Hindsight is a wonderful thing huh?

but what lore or power went into their making that the smiths of Eregion harnessed or twisted or wrought?

[jammi567]

i believe, as does this article here (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/43808), that it was the power to preserve middle earth in a timeless zone almost. There is also this quote that helps to back it up:
What special powers did the Three Rings have?
We are not told clearly. Galadriel’s Ring did seem useful in preserving Lórien, and Elrond’s in defending Rivendell, but then all the Rings of Power were about preservation.

The Three Rings seem to be like the others, but without the elements that Sauron contributed. At the Council, Elrond says, “The Three were not made ... as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.� [LotR II 2 (286)] They did not make a wearer invisible.

Tolkien underlines this in a letter: after Sauron’s fall at the end of the Second Age, “the Three Rings of the Elves, wielded by secret guardians, are operative in preserving the memory of the beauty of old, maintaining enchanted enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West.� [L #131 (157)] “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age� says something similar: “those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.� [Silm: Rings (288)]

It may be that the Three had power to give new hope. When CÃ*rdan gives one of them to Gandalf, he says “this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.â€� [LotR App B (1122)] But perhaps CÃ*rdan’s language was merely poetic. When Gandalf rekindled Théoden’s heart, it seemed that his staff was important to the process [LotR III 6 (536-537)], but there was no statement that he used his ring.

[Butterbeer]

was then some essence of the west or some residue / light or elemental force perhaps from the trees or similiar summoned or caught or entrapped or focused into the rings of power think you?

[jammi567]

i think the power that all the rings had was desire, or there was greed in there that worked on each individuals desires, individual person or race. for example, the elves desire was to have a bit of valinor without leaving middle earth. therefore, that's what their rings did (preserving, but also enlarging) ie. lorien, rivendale. On the other hand, once given to them, one man-king might want to practice dark arts, so the ring he had gave him that power to be able to do so, whilst another might want to help another country, and so his ring gave him resorces and the abilities to go the job sucessfully.

[jammi567]

The Rings of Power

This essay will help to explain the basics of the Rings, what powers they had, and other such matters. To begin with, some basic facts:

The Rings were made in Eregion, right next to the mines of Moria, on the west side, around 1500-1600 of the Second age. They were made by the Gwaith-i-Mirdain (People of the Jewel-smiths), and they were most cunning things ever wrought, except for the simarils, of course. The leader of this group was Celebrimbor, son of Curufin. We don’t know how they were made, but we do know that they contained powerful magic “The power of the Elven-Rings was very great� (Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power, page 297). The 19 were made originally because the elves of Eregion wanted to live both in Middle-earth, and yet have the bliss and wonder of Valinor. The One, however, was made because Sauron wanted to eventually bring the elves under his rule by deceptive means.


Now, to understand why everyone considers the Rings to be dangerous, we first have to look at what powers they had:

All Rings = One power I believe that all the Rings had was being able to work on the desires/greed of the race/person in question. For example, the elves wanted to have Valinor, but not leave Middle-earth, therefore the Rings preserved and slowed down decay, whilst the dwarves wanted gold and mithril, therefore, they found massive gold and mithril hoards. Finally, Men wanted power, whether for good or evil, so their Rings enlarged that power.

3 Rings = The powers that they had was that they didn’t turn the person invisible, as well as being able to kindle hearts, as “With it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill� (Lord of the Rings, Appendix B, page 1122). But the main power that they had was to preserve and prevent decay, e.g. Lorien, Rivendell.

7 + 9 Rings = They made a person invisible, put them both in the spiritual world when worn, and corrupted because they were made under the guidance of Sauron. Around 550 years after the nine were given, the nazgul first appeared. However, this only happened to men, because dwarves were too tough, and so it didn’t affect them. An interesting question to ask would be: Could an elf become a slave to Sauron if he wore one of the seven or nine? I believe the answer to be yes, because in their own way, elves are as weak as men, and the ring would work on that elf’s desire, and eventually, hello elf nazgul.

The One Ring = Its powers are that it controls the other Rings of Power, it seems to understand the Orc language (unless they were speaking the common speech in the first place, of course). It can sense its surroundings, and even influence them to suite its own needs, e.g. Gollum in cave in Hobbit, Frodo in Prancing Pony, and Sam in Cirith Ungol, and finally, it corrupts, controls, and abandons the person that has it. (The last one only happens if that person isn’t heading towards Sauron).


A question to ask is: How did Sauron manage to corrupt the Rings in the first place? There are two possible answers to this. 1) Sauron planned the whole business with the One Ring from the start, and so when he helped those fateful elves, he left himself a kind of ‘back door’ that he could use to ensnare them. 2) A less likely possibility is that once he helped make the Rings, and the Ruling Ring, he did some powerful spell to add the ensnaring part to them. I personally believe 1).

Of course, the ultimate question we have to ask ourselves is: Why, when they realized that Sauron had control of the Rings, didn’t they destroy them as soon as possible? The simple answer is that “They failed to find the strength� (Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn, page 237).

So I hope you like it, and that there is lots of discussion about it. :)

[Landroval]

One power I believe that all the Rings had was being able to work on the desires/greed of the race/person in question. For example, the elves wanted to have Valinor, but not leave Middle-earth
Their desire to have Valinor was the cause of making the rings, not the other way around.

[jammi567]

Their desire to have Valinor was the cause of making the rings, not the other way around.
what i mean is that all the Rings had this power of greed/desire. so if the elves wanted that, that's what they got.

[Curubethion]

A question to ask is: How did Sauron manage to corrupt the Rings in the first place? There are two possible answers to this. 1) Sauron planned the whole business with the One Ring from the start, and so when he helped those fateful elves, he left himself a kind of ‘back door’ that he could use to ensnare them. 2) A less likely possibility is that once he helped make the Rings, and the Ruling Ring, he did some powerful spell to add the ensnaring part to them. I personally believe 1).
I don't have a quote, but I know it's in there somewhere...but Sauron had a crucial role in the making of all of the rings, save for the Elven rings. All the others were touched by Sauron. Then, when the elves figured it all out, they hid the Elven Rings.

I like the essay...although what makes you think that the seven dwarven rings made people invisible? In fact, IIRC, Tolkien says that the only effect that they had was to increase gold hoards. Whether or not he was speaking with invisibility in mind, I don't know. Also, did the nine rings actually make men invisible? I was rather under the impression that it was Sauron's influence that turned the men into wraiths after they died.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Of course, the ultimate question we have to ask ourselves is: Why, when they realized that Sauron had control of the Rings, didn’t they destroy them as soon as possible? The simple answer is that “They failed to find the strength� (Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn, page 237).

So I hope you like it, and that there is lots of discussion about it. :)
Verry good essay jammi. :)


I think at first they didn't destroy them because they might not have known how to. Later, they thought the One was lost, so there wasn't any threat of someone controlling thier three via the One.

[jammi567]

I like the essay...although what makes you think that the seven dwarven rings made people invisible? In fact, IIRC, Tolkien says that the only effect that they had was to increase gold hoards. Whether or not he was speaking with invisibility in mind, I don't know. Also, did the nine rings actually make men invisible? I was rather under the impression that it was Sauron's influence that turned the men into wraiths after they died.
what i'm saying is that the seven and the nine are like generic copies of each other, so if you gave a man a Ring that was given to a dwarf, that person would still be invisible. It didn't affect the dwarfs because they were too mentally tough to be effected. As to your other question, yes, i think they must've because i can't think of any other way that they could go into the spiritual world otherwise.

[jammi567]

I think at first they didn't destroy them because they might not have known how to.
Okay, lets assume that that they did have the strengh to distroy the Rings (that is, after Sauron uttered the verse, but before he attacked Eregion). I would think that they could undo their own Power on them, and then just throw them into the fire. If this was the case, then, of course, the One Ring would lose control over them. But as they didn't do this, then i would've thought that they would try and do something a bit more drastic to stop Sauron in what he was doing, rarther then just hiding them.

[hectorberlioz]

You know, I never did think about this before.

Though the rings did make you powerful over people though, as demonstrated when Sam scares off the orcs in the tower.

Great points Jammi.

[Butterbeer]

what about the last alliance though? :)

[jammi567]

what about the last alliance though? :)
what about it.

[Gordis]

Interesting essay, Jammi.
I was very busy lately, so I had no time to comment. I shall do it later.

Only some things now.
In UT it is stated clearly that Celebrimbor and Co. DID understand the necessiy to destroy all the rings, but they "failed to find the strength". Not the power, mind you, but moral strength. Rings were as dear to Celebrimbor as Silmarils to Feanor.
And Galadriel and Celebrimbor still hoped to use them one day.. so great was their desire to preserve things as they were and get the bliss of Valinor in ME.

Now a question:
Destroying the One Ring meant the end of th power of all the other 19.

Now, could it be that the end of ALL the 19 could mean the loss of the power of the One and thus Sauron's destruction?

Perhaps Celebrimbor had Sauron's very existence in his hands but did nothing?

[Butterbeer]

sounds in keeping with the elves...


... but ...???

[jammi567]

Now a question:
Destroying the One Ring meant the end of th power of all the other 19.

Now, could it be that the end of ALL the 19 could mean the loss of the power of the One and thus Sauron's destruction?

Perhaps Celebrimbor had Sauron's very existence in his hands but did nothing?
As i said above, i think the Powers of the Ring (to control other Rings etc)would've gone, but not the Power to distroy Sauron. For that, the Ring itself had to be distroyed. But i might be wrong on this totally, of course, i'm just saying my opinion.

[Landroval]

Now, could it be that the end of ALL the 19 could mean the loss of the power of the One and thus Sauron's destruction?
I doubt it; it was Sauron's power in the One Ring, not of the other rings; the first 16 were attempts by the elves under his guidance and in the last 3 were made by Celebrimbor alone - I know of no power the rings have over the One Ring.

[jammi567]

I doubt it; it was Sauron's power in the One Ring, not of the other rings; the first 16 were attempts by the elves under his guidance and in the last 3 were made by Celebrimbor alone - I know of no power the rings have over the One Ring.
very true. afterall, it required much Power on Saurons part to control the 19, so yeh, none of them could be more powerful then the One.

[Gordis]

very true. afterall, it required much Power on Saurons part to control the 19, so yeh, none of them could be more powerful then the One.
No, you are misunderstanding me.

I mean, if the One destroyed meant the total loss of the power of the 19, then the powers of the rings were directly connected. It should have been true the other way round as well.
Of course, the One was more powerful than all the 19 combined, so SOME power should have remained in it: but was that remnant enough to sustain Sauron's life?

[Landroval]

It should have been true the other way round as well.
Why?
Of course, the One was more powerful than all the 19 combined, so SOME power should have remained in it:
It was Sauron's power that was transferred; if all the rings perish, that power still exists in it.

[Gordis]

Why?
That is the way with things connected with each other. And there WAS a strong connection, otherwise why the powers of the 19 waned when the one was destroyed?

It was Sauron's power that was transferred; if all the rings perish, that power still exists in it.
And it was Mirdain's power and some of Sauron's power in the Rings as well. The power of the rings combined was great. Sauron had to put a lot of his power in the One to match that.

[Gordis]

So here are my comments on your essay, Jammi.

All Rings = One power I believe that all the Rings had was being able to work on the desires/greed of the race/person in question
The Rings were first meant for the Elves - both by Sauron and Celebrimbor. So their MAIN power was preservation. They also had other powers needed BY THE ELVES.

The Elves were not adverse to accumulating treasures, not only the Dwarves had such a flaw, hence they made the Seven.
Not all Hollin Elves were Calaquendi, (though Celebrimbor himself was), not all "lived in both Worlds and had great powers in the Seen and the Unseen" - hence they made the Nine - to give the Moriquendi elves the same powers as Calaquendi had.

7 + 9 Rings = They made a person invisible, put them both in the spiritual world when worn, and corrupted because they were made under the guidance of Sauron.
I am not sure that the Seven made anyone invisible or transferred anyone into the Spirit world. We don't know it: nobody wore them but the Dwarves, and before them some unnamed Elves. The Dwarves were neither made invisible, nor faded into wraiths. Even their lives were not prolonged. I think they had no such powers.

Could an elf become a slave to Sauron if he wore one of the seven or nine? I believe the answer to be yes, because in their own way, elves are as weak as men, and the ring would work on that elf’s desire, and eventually, hello elf nazgul.
I think an elf would become a slave to Sauron (the wielder of the One), yes. Even the wielders of the Three would have become slaves to Sauron, had they worn their Rings in the Second Age.

BUT, IMO, an elf wearing one of the Nine wouldn't become a wraith, so not a nazgul. Nazgul faded because their lives were unnaturally prolonged, while neither their bodies, nor their fëar were made to endure so long. Probably with the Elves, the 9 Rings would rather prevent natural fading, just as the Three did. After all, ALL the rings were made by Elves and FOR the elves, so the probability of undesirable side-effects was low.

The One Ring = Its powers are that it controls the other Rings of Power, it seems to understand the Orc language (unless they were speaking the common speech in the first place, of course). It can sense its surroundings, and even influence them to suite its own needs, e.g. Gollum in cave in Hobbit, Frodo in Prancing Pony, and Sam in Cirith Ungol, and finally, it corrupts, controls, and abandons the person that has it. (The last one only happens if that person isn’t heading towards Sauron).

Those are only some of its powers. There is a quote somewhere that the One contains all the powers of the other Rings, so it can "kindle hearts" as Narya, preserve whole kingdoms as Nenya, make rivers flood as Vilya, transfer a physical body into the Spirit world like the Nine, help to accumulate treasures like the Seven and so on. It only has to be wielded properly.

Also, did the nine rings actually make men invisible? I was rather under the impression that it was Sauron's influence that turned the men into wraiths after they died.
Yes the Nine did make mortals invisible, as they transfered them into the Spirit World. And the nazgul NEVER died, that is why they are called the "undead"

what i'm saying is that the seven and the nine are like generic copies of each other, so if you gave a man a Ring that was given to a dwarf, that person would still be invisible
I disagree.
I think the Seven and the Nine are very different, though we know very little about them. The only thing they had in common was that they were corrupted. Every Ring had its own name and its own stone - it seems like their powers may have differed even between the rings of the same set .

What we do know, is that the rings were called "Seven" and "Nine" even before Sauron distributed them - see the passage in UT "Galadriel and Celeborn".

By SA 1695, when Sauron attacked Hollin, the Seven were already distributed by Celebrimbor himself - likely to Eregion Elves. One of the Seven, it is said, Celebrimbor himself gave to Durin, Lord of Moria. The Nine, in contrast, were all kept intact in the House of the Mirdain - so the Nazgul were the first to have them.

I suppose, that the Nine were probably meant for the children of the Mirdain, born in Middle Earth. They wouldn't be Calaquendi, like their fathers, so they needed these Rings (keys to the Spirit World) to compensate for that, to have access into the Spirit World.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I posted this in the 'what if' thread but it seems to fit here. If Sauron captured a powerful man, say Boromir or Aragorn, and decided he wanted to make them his new Nazgul.....could he take one of the Nine and give it to them subsequently turning them into a wraith? Or, are the Nine tied to the original owners forever?

[Landroval]

That is the way with things connected with each other. And there WAS a strong connection, otherwise why the powers of the 19 waned when the one was destroyed?
We know that the neutralisation of the one ring implies the neutralisation of the other power rings. But to think reversely, as you suggest - without proper evidence, is called a logical fallacy - "affirming the consequent".
And it was Mirdain's power and some of Sauron's power in the Rings as well.
No he didn't
But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
...
and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel.
The Rings were first meant for the Elves - both by Sauron and Celebrimbor. So their MAIN power was preservation.
Silmarillion implies that only the Three had that power, that is why Sauron wanted them most of all
and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.
though letter #131 implies that "the chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay"
What we do know, is that the rings were called "Seven" and "Nine" even before Sauron distributed them - see the passage in UT "Galadriel and Celeborn".
Which is contradicted by Silmarillion
and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will
What this quote tells us is that Sauron gave the rings around depending on how the races were willing to subject to his will - not depending on specific power of those rings.
Or, are the Nine tied to the original owners forever?
The three and some of the seven exchanged hands several times; even the one could, theoretically, be mastered by someone other than Sauron. So I don't think there is an exclusive possesion. Interestingly enough, in Of Gollum and the rings, HoME VI, it was stated that:
In the very ancient days the Ring-lord made many of these Rings: and sent them out through the world to snare people. He sent them to all sorts of folk - the Elves had many, and there are now many elfwraiths in the world, but the Ring-lord cannot rule them

[jammi567]

I disagree.
I think the Seven and the Nine are very different, though we know very little about them. The only thing they had in common was that they were corrupted. Every Ring had its own name and its own stone - it seems like their powers may have differed even between the rings of the same set .
Examples please.

[Gordis]

Examples please.
Examples of what?

[jammi567]

Examples of what?
of why they're different, even though Sauron handed them out randomly.

[jammi567]

I posted this in the 'what if' thread but it seems to fit here. If Sauron captured a powerful man, say Boromir or Aragorn, and decided he wanted to make them his new Nazgul.....could he take one of the Nine and give it to them subsequently turning them into a wraith? Or, are the Nine tied to the original owners forever?
I think that even if they did do that, they would want to want it, almost being like drugs. with boromir, this almost came true, from the minute he saw the Ring. with aragon however, they wouldn't adffect him. so if you can't want lust for the One Ring, then i don't think that you would be affected by one of the Nine.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion
Ah, but remember Cel did give them freely away, to Gil, Cirdin and alatiriel. I do not think he would have hesitated to destroy them if he deemed it neccessary, he certainly was not another Isildur.

No, Celebrimbor was worse than Isildur and by far.

Isildur was a person that the Elves later loved to blame, readily forgetting their own involvement in the Ring-Project.

But Isildur was a mere Man, having little understanding of the Rings scheme and their powers. He was temporarily blinded by the power of the One, by his own pride and by grief for his father and brother. By the way, I say "temporarily" not at random, as in two years, just before his death, Isildur seriously considered giving the Ring back to the keepers of the Three. He said to his son:

Quote:
"Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three."

Now look at Cel. Togethar with his buddy Annatar Celebrimbor invented all the Ring project - clearly going against the designs of Eru.

After he discovered the existence of the One and the true identity of his dearest friend Annatar, he had ALL the rings but the One in his possession for 100 years (1600-1697). He could end all the project at once by destroying the 19 rings - saving the Second and the Third Age from a lot of calamities. But he didn't do it.

Quote:
UT Galadriel and Celeborn: Sauron himself departed from Eregion about the year 1500, after the MÃ*rdain had begun the making of the Rings of Power. Now Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be; and when at length he discovered the existence of the One Ring he revolted against Sauron, and went to Lórinand to take counsel once more with Galadriel. They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, "but they failed to find the strength." Galadriel counselled him that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, and dispersed, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be.

At least he could have hidden ALL the rings as well as he hid the Three. He failed to do even that. The Seven and the Nine remained in Eregion, the latter lying all together in the House of Mirdain - ready for the taking. And he told Sauron to whom the Seven were bestowed.

Quote:
At last the attackers broke into Eregion with ruin and devastation, and captured the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the MÃ*rdain, where were their smithies and their treasures. Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the MÃ*rdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the MÃ*rdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose.UT.

You see, he didn't value the Seven or the Nine enough to keep them from Sauron, but still he was so besotted with his rings that he failed to destroy any. With that he put Men and Dwarves in peril, but that bothered the High Elf little. Ugh...
i hope you don't mind me using your post, because i think it should go in this thread, because it's about the Rings.

[jammi567]

I do not think he was merely "besotted" with the three as he was more reluctant to give them to Sauron who would use them to evil purposes with devastating effect; the three were indeed the rings of power, as was illustrated by Elrond at the ford. The others where of far lesser make, and while they controlled the bearer, they had no power over those without.

Yet, even under torture he did not reveal the location of the three to Sauron, that in itself shows character beyond measure. Alone upon the steps did he contest with his enemy, until overmastered was he.

"They" could not find the strength, not Celebrimbor only. Alatiriel bade him to hide them, not to destroy them. Think about it for a moment, given her history, would she see these things destroyed that could give her such personal power. Was it not to rule a realm of her own, free of the valar was the why behind her leaving valinor; I say she would not and did not take the one to achieve this end, for she was more than elvin was, but for her weakness, she would have coveted the three for what they represented to her and the fulfilment of all her labours.

While your points about Isildur bear some merit, still none can deny he had the greatest chance to destroy the the one, yet faltered at the most critical point. Even Galadriel refused the one, and Mithrindir, do you believe Celebrimbor would have made the same mistake, he who first rejected the one in the beggining, nay good sir/madame, nay. I will also point out that, it was more of strategic reasoning than anything else for wanting to destroy the the three, as keeping them means the risk of their capture.
See above for reason why i'm putting this post here.

[jammi567]

Something i've just thought of is: Why did both Elrond and Gil-galad refuse Sauron entry into their relms, when they were young, and had never experianced Valinor?

[Jon S.]

Sauron was able to control even the 3, which he did not make or touch, because he transferred so much of his power to the 1 to make it so controlling. This has always seemed to me to be quite the gamble even from the perspective of the point in time of the origin of the 1 ("don't put all your eggs in one basket") and one that, of course, Saruron eventually ost.

[Landroval]

Elrond is called the greatest of loremasters; I have no doubt that Gil-galad was rather similar to him in that aspect. They "repulsed" the blasphemy of Sauron's proposal, to recreate paradise, which was a "veiled attack on the gods", as stated by Tolkien in letter #131.

[Alcuin]

Something i've just thought of is: Why did both Elrond and Gil-galad refuse Sauron entry into their relms, when they were young, and had never experianced Valinor?In addition to what Landroval has just posted (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=564418&postcount=35), Galadriel was in Lindon and Eregion during the period when Sauron in the guise of Annatar seduced the Noldorin smiths of Eregion. She knew Aulë herself and many of his Maiar. She told the Elves that no Annatar had been among the folk of Aulë in Valinor, and was suspicious of this unknown Maia.

[jammi567]

Ok, but looking in the Tale of Years, it says that Gil-galad refused to treat with Sauron 300 years before the elves of Eregion began making the Rings of Power. And i wouldn't think that Sauron would tell them what he was planning for them to make until the felt confident in their abilities. But yeah, Galadriel telling Elrond and Gil-galad sounds good. But then, why didn't the elves of Eregion believe her? Where they really that stupid not to trust her?

[Gordis]

Why would they believe this scheming lady?
I am not sure she was too popular among the Noldor in the First and Second Ages. As far as I remember, Thingol refused admittance to Doriath to any who took part in the Rebellion and the resulting Kinslaying. Galadriel, who had taken an active part in the Rebellion, by lies and half truths made her way to Thingol's household, married a kinsman of Thingol and became close to Melian, distancing herself from her not so "diplomatic" kin.

Moreover, Galadriel really had nothing definite against Sauron. Many Maiar left Valinor for ME before she was ever born. I think she merely had a "bad feeling" about Annatar, much as she had before about Feanor. She refused Feanor advances long before he did anything bad.

Elrond and Gil-Galad trusted her, because they were born long after this Doriath incident. But Celebrimbor and Calaquendi Noldor, who took part in the rebellion themselves, didn't.

[Gordis]

Elrond is called the greatest of loremasters; I have no doubt that Gil-galad was rather similar to him in that aspect. They "repulsed" the blasphemy of Sauron's proposal, to recreate paradise, which was a "veiled attack on the gods", as stated by Tolkien in letter #131.
Yes but who DID recreate this paradise in Middle Earth, using the very Rings they thought so blasphemous?
Galadriel in Lorien and Elrond in Rivendell.
:p

[jammi567]

Why would they believe this scheming lady?
I am not sure she was too popular among the Noldor in the First and Second Ages. As far as I remember, Thingol refused admittance to Doriath to any who took part in the Rebellion and the resulting Kinslaying. Galadriel, who had taken an active part in the Rebellion, by lies and half truths made her way to Thingol's household, married a kinsman of Thingol and became close to Melian, distancing herself from her not so "diplomatic" kin.
But doesn'tit say in unfinished tales somewhere that she was fighting with the teleri. at the first kinslying.

And that's a very good point. The things you learn.

[Gordis]

But doesn'tit say in unfinished tales somewhere that she was fighting with the teleri. at the first kinslying.

I much prefer the Silm story to the later versions found in UT. But even if you go with the UT version, all the other children of Finarfin were guiltless as well. Still, none of them were welcome to Doriath. Only Galadriel sneaked there telling half-truths.
I think Tolkien realized the implications of Galadriel's behaviour as described in the Silm and the first version in UT. He wanted to make her a saint, so he sought to remove her part in the rebellion altogether - "Teleporno" version in UT.

[jammi567]

How could lie to get into Doriath. If she said "Hay, Thingol. 'ow about greetin' your grand-niece and nethews. Let us in, 'cause we're family, and we're inoccent in the kinslain'," she would be allowed in. :D

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

1) Sauron planned the whole business with the One Ring from the start, and so when he helped those fateful elves, he left himself a kind of ‘back door’ that he could use to ensnare them. 2) A less likely possibility is that once he helped make the Rings, and the Ruling Ring, he did some powerful spell to add the ensnaring part to them. I personally believe 1).

I think it was likely more a combination of both. We may not know precisely how the 19 rings were made, but considering that the One's power derived from the part of Sauron's being that he had placed in it and that there is signifigance placed on who had part in the making of the other rings in correlation to how corruptable they were I would guess that the seven and the nine rings were made powerful by the individual elves who made them placing parts of themselves (and thus their power) inside those rings.

If that is the case then each ring's specific powers and functions would likely vary according to the materials used, the personality and power of the maker.

I think it doubtful that Sauron stood over each elf's shoulder and actively participated in the making of any of the rings. It's more believable that when he taught the elves how to make the rings of power he would have left something out that left the rings vulnerable to being ensnared by a spell fueled by the One once he had made it.

A possible reason that the elves didn't destory the rings, but chose to hide them is that they may have intended to later 'edit' their works by withdrawing the power they had placed in them, cleansing them of Sauron's influence and then making them powerful again and better shielded. Except that they didn't plan on being killed off in the fall of Eregion and having their works captured.

[jammi567]

Yeah.....it's almost like "i'll show you how to make one"*shows them*"ok, off you go. i'll help you as needed."

[Noble Elf Lord]

Here I´m answering to jammi567´s essay abut the Rings of power. Now, I won´t argue about the origins of the Rings, for it must have been a year or so when I last read the Silmarillion properly. But, the seven did not have the corrupting power of the nine, but a horrible curse: the dwarves would gain wondrous treasures, but they were cursed to lose them either into dragons flames or orcs. A dwarven-nightmare-come-true, eh? And they didn´t make people invisible. The only reason why the One made people invisible was that it showed what will eventually happen to the bearer: he/she will pass into the Shadowworld (Aragorn:"He is passing into the Shadowworld. He will soon become a wraith like them."). Neither did the nine do invisibility. To answer this question of yours about how Sauron gained ctrl over the 7 and 9, didn´t you know that he indeed helped the elves make those rings? They could never have done them on their own, but then again, nor could Sauron have (apart from the One). Then, why didn´t they (the elves) destroy the 3? Perhaps they thought that, even if they were destroyed, Sauron still had his own, and since he had never touched the three, what´s the point to destroy them? By the way, I hope this is good english enough, for I´m from Finland. :)

[Landroval]

But, the seven did not have the corrupting power of the nine, but a horrible curse: the dwarves would gain wondrous treasures, but they were cursed to lose them either into dragons flames or orcs. A dwarven-nightmare-come-true, eh? And they didn´t make people invisible.
I don't think there is any referrence to back the two bolded suppositions - unless we stretch Sauron's evil power to act as a curse.
Neither did the nine do invisibility.
I disagree; Tolkien stated the following concerning the original nine kings and the powers they got from using the rings:
They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron.
They could never have done them on their own, but then again, nor could Sauron have (apart from the One).
Again, I am not aware of any referrence that could back these two claims.
Then, why didn´t they (the elves) destroy the 3?
From Unfinished Tales:
They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, "but they failed to find the strength."

[Noble Elf Lord]

They COULD walk. But the 9 did not automatically make them invisible. And why Sauron could not curse the 7?

[jammi567]

As Landroval said above, the nine and the seven were the same. But the dwarves were uneffected by the curruptive power of the seven, so it worked in other ways. But it's definatly not a curse.

[captain carrot]

as i understand it all the rings, and certainly the sets of rings were different.

You are right to say that the dwarves as a race were by far less influenced or susceptible to the influence of the seven than mortal man were to the nine.

It's an interesting idea, the idea the rings may have had a curse. certainly sounds like sauron.

Dwarves as a race have greeed in their hearts, even the more noble ones. It hardly needed a ring to awaken those desires.

[Landroval]

They COULD walk.
?:confused:
But the 9 did not automatically make them invisible.
Why would you say that? Is there anything that contradicts the quote I gave from the Sil? Or is there anything that backs your idea?
And why Sauron could not curse the 7?
I didn't say he couldn't. My argument is that his power was at work through the rings - be it the "passive" power of corruption, or an influence he directed willingly on the ring-bearers. That he cursed them I found no evidence of.
You are right to say that the dwarves as a race were by far less influenced or susceptible to the influence of the seven than mortal man were to the nine.
Yes, resistance to certain evils is what they were created with in mind:
And Aule made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding.
Dwarves as a race have greeed in their hearts, even the more noble ones. It hardly needed a ring to awaken those desires.
Indeed, even their name derives from (or at least related to) avarice:
Nauglath GL gives the following words: naug and naugli 'dwarf, naugla 'of the dwarves', nauglafel 'dwarf-natured, i.e. 'mean, avaricious'

[Noble Elf Lord]

Let´s say it was a passive curse shall we? :D