Were the Nazgul incapable of suicide? (Even though it wasn’t such a bad idea)

[CAB]

I would think it is very likely that at least one of the Nazgul wished to end his existence in Middle Earth. Aside from all the considerable disadvantages to living as a wraith, there is the fact that in Tolkien’s universe Men’s spirits sought to leave the world after a certain amount of time. Whether or not one believes that he would like to live forever in the real world, in Tolkien’s it is a given that Men do not, even if they don’t know it.

Early in the Third Age the Nazgul had the opportunity to end their “lives”. Sauron’s spirit was very weak and he didn’t have either the One or the nine rings. Any of the Nazgul who wished could have traveled to Orodruin and cast their rings into the fire. But there is the catch. I would guess that, just like Frodo, they were entirely incapable of destroying their rings (I guess this part is pretty obvious). It is even possible that Gandalf knew that Frodo would be unable to even attempt to damage the Ring because of rumors concerning failed Nazgul suicide attempts (a little unlikely, I think) or maybe just by reasoning that since the Nazgul were all still “alive” they were unable to willingly destroy their rings.

Any thoughts?

[Jon S.]

This might interest you:

http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-SauronHeld(last revised 21 July 2002 )

Were the Nazgûl wearing their Rings at the time of The Lord of the Rings?

Though this question does occasion perennial controversy on r.a.b.t, the great weight of the evidence supports the conclusion that Sauron had them.

Evidence that Sauron had them
Most importantly, Tolkien says so in a lot of places:

“... Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control. ...” [L #246 (331), also on the Web]

Gandalf tells Frodo, “the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed.” [LotR I 2 (65)]

Galadriel tells Frodo that, looking in her mirror, “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.” [LotR II 7 (386)]

In “The Hunt for the Ring”, we read of Sauron’s “mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.” [UT: HR (338)]

In another version of “The Hunt for the Ring”, again we read that the Ringwraiths “were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which [Sauron] now himself held”. [UT: HR (343)]

(Thanks to Conrad Dunkerson for pointing out several of the above.)

From these quotes it seems fairly clear that Tolkien conceived that Sauron had direct physical possession of the Nine Rings, not indirect possession through having the Nine on the fingers of his slaves. I really don’t see any other way to read the quotes from Letters and the two versions of “The Hunt for the Ring”. Furthermore, the two quotes from The Lord of the Rings link the Seven and Nine as “held” in the same way, and we know for certain that Sauron had physical possession of those of the Seven that were still in existence.

Beyond quotes, some physical circumstances suggest that the Nazgûl did not wear their rings. These are merely suggestive, not conclusive in themselves:

The Nazgûl’s black robes were visible. If they were wearing Great Rings, we would have expected their clothes to be invisible too.

On Weathertop, after he put on the One Ring, Frodo could see the Nazgûl’s mantles, robes, hair color, helms, “haggard hands”, and swords, as well as the Witch-king’s crown and knife. [LotR I 11 (212)] There is no mention of his seeing their Rings. Yet we know that while merely carrying the Ring in Lórien Frodo could see Galadriel’s Ring: “it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye,” she tells him [LotR II 7 (384)]. (Those who don’t accept this line of reasoning can point out that the attack at Weathertop occurred before Frodo had seen the Eye.)

When the Witch-king was destroyed on the Pelennor Fields, no Ring was found. Since the Nine Rings had gems, it would have sparkled in the sun; though of course it could have been missed in long grass.

Evidence that the Nazgûl still wore the Nine Rings
Only one citation goes that way, as far as I know, namely Gandalf’s remark at the Council of Elrond: “The Nine the Nazgûl keep.” [LotR II 2 (267)] In a previous edition of this FAQ I tried to explain the quote away as inverted word order for “The Nine keep the Nazgûl [in Sauron’s thralldom].” But I believe a simpler and better explanation is external: Tolkien intended at one time that the Nazgûl should still be wearing their Rings, but he later changed his mind and simply missed revising that sentence.

Conrad Dunkerson supports this view with textual evidence from The History of Middle-earth: [r.a.b.t article, 17 Feb 2002, archived here]: “Tolkien wrote the ‘Nine the Nazgûl keep’ line during one of the drafts of the Council of Elrond. Then much later he wrote that the Nazgûl were increased in power before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields because Sauron had returned their Rings to them. If Sauron was only returning the Rings at that point then Tolkien could not have intended that they were wearing them at the time of the Council.”

Apart from texts, some have argued that the Nazgûl must have been wearing their Rings, or else they would have aged as Bilbo did. But the cases are not parallel: Bilbo had not become a wraith, and we have no reason to think that a wraith would age or change in any way, being no longer in the physical world. Also, Gollum was centuries older than Bilbo, but he showed no signs at all of aging in the seven decades after he lost his Ring. (For that matter, Bilbo didn’t age very much after giving up the One Ring, until after it was destroyed.)

Conclusion
While not quite one-sided, the textual evidence favors very strongly indeed the conclusion that, at the end of the Third Age, Sauron had physical possession of the Nine Rings. Physical circumstances also suggest this, though other explanations are possible. But the physical evidence is well reinforced by direct textual evidence, against a single quote that says the opposite. You decide!

(What is not known is just when Sauron took the Nine Rings back from the Nazgûl, assuming that he did. We know it was some time before the Nazgûl began hunting for the One Ring, but whether it was immediately before or much earlier we cannot tell. That Sauron, even without the One, could get the Nazgûl to give up the Nine Rings, there is little doubt, since no mortal could have withheld even the One from him.)

[Butterbeer]

people tend to forget Tolkien was writing a story , not a legal water-tight document.

What is wrong with gandalf, beleieving at the council that the nine held them?

they knew not for sure, i see no inconsitency with gandalf beleiving this. Sauron beleived they would never attempt to destroy the ring!

Tolkien would have no problem with this, whether it is or isn't a contradiction, simply because it cannot be one since his character beleived this (right or wrong )to be the case at the council - that is all, it makes not one iota of difference to anything else.... it is abundantly clear even Elrond was not 100% certain, nor Gandalf nor Galadriel what would happen on the demise of the One - how could they know for sure?




Jonathon - perhaps you should re-read the question? :p :)

We are talking about the period between the finger slicer (TM Valandil) and son's family on-location butcher business's attempted final-cut and the re-emergence of sauron up prior to the time of 'the war of the rings'

... question is, do they have the rings THEN ... presumably yes - for one look at the Witch King of Angmar.

did Sauron on his re-emergence then re-take one by one the rings from the Nine?




what i have never understood is this:

Since the one on the hand of sauron would control and bind all the other rings ... why did it not do so when he HAD it on his hand in full power before the armies of Gil-galad and Elendil popped on by for a rumble?

At the point of it's forging when Big Cele became aware of its intention - did they all, as quick as whores dropping their knickers, take off their rings???

[CAB]

Thank you for your reply Jon, but Butterbeer is right. You will notice I began the second paragraph “Early in the Third Age”.

I have seen this exact argument before, and I absolutely agree that Sauron took the Nazguls’ rings at some point. But this doesn’t really apply to the idea I posted here because the Nazgul probably kept their rings for at least a thousand years during the first part of the Third Age.


Since the one on the hand of sauron would control and bind all the other rings ... why did it not do so when he HAD it on his hand in full power before the armies of Gil-galad and Elendil popped on by for a rumble?

At the point of it's forging when Big Cele became aware of its intention - did they all, as quick as whores dropping their knickers, take off their rings???
I’m not sure what you mean Butterbeer. It is said that the Elves immediately removed their rings when they became aware of the One. By the time of the war they only held onto the three rings. Certainly they didn’t put them back on until after Sauron’s defeat. The holders of the seven rings couldn’t be subjugated this way, and the holders of the nine fought for Sauron.

[CAB]

What is wrong with gandalf, beleieving at the council that the nine held them?

they knew not for sure, I see no inconsitency with gandalf beleiving this. Sauron beleived they would never attempt to destroy the ring!

Tolkien would have no problem with this, whether it is or isn't a contradiction, simply because it cannot be one since his character beleived this (right or wrong )to be the case at the council - that is all, it makes not one iota of difference to anything else.... it is abundantly clear even Elrond was not 100% certain, nor Gandalf nor Galadriel what would happen on the demise of the One - how could they know for sure?
I thank you for your support Butterbeer, but I didn’t really suggest that Gandalf thought that the Nazgul still had their rings late in the Third Age. The important part is that he believed/knew that they had them early in the Third age (when they would have been free of Sauron’s control), yet they all were still “alive” much later.

[Jon S.]

My name is not short for Jonathan - it's Jon.

CAB, yes, I read your original note carefully. That's why I took the time to cut and paste the FAQ excerpt here.

Did you (and Butterbeer) read this part (emphasis added)?

>> (What is not known is just when Sauron took the Nine Rings back from the Nazgûl, assuming that he did. We know it was some time before the Nazgûl began hunting for the One Ring, but whether it was immediately before or much earlier we cannot tell. That Sauron, even without the One, could get the Nazgûl to give up the Nine Rings, there is little doubt, since no mortal could have withheld even the One from him.)

If not, now that you have, do you have additional thoughts to share on the suicide question?

EDIT: P.S.

>> I would think it is very likely that at least one of the Nazgul wished to end his existence in Middle Earth.

Even accepting this as true (I have my doubts), why so soon? Why not after, say, 10,000 years? Or 6,000? Or 12,000? The point being perhaps what you're doing here is more projecting what you would think and do in a similar situation than describing accurately what the 9 ex-kings felt and wanted.

[Jon S.]

what i have never understood is this:

Since the one on the hand of sauron would control and bind all the other rings ... why did it not do so when he HAD it on his hand in full power before the armies of Gil-galad and Elendil popped on by for a rumble?

At the point of it's forging when Big Cele became aware of its intention - did they all, as quick as whores dropping their knickers, take off their rings???

As a matter of fact, that's precisely what they did - upon Sauron wielding the One, not literally at its forging - as explained in The Simarillion (perhaps you didn't read it carefully? :p ):

"But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings."

[CAB]

We know it was some time before the Nazgûl began hunting for the One Ring, but whether it was immediately before or much earlier we cannot tell.
If not, now that you have, do you have additional thoughts to share on the suicide question?
I did consider that part (I guess I should have been more clear about that). We can’t know, but I think it is only reasonable to assume that there was more than enough time for any of the Nazgul who wished to make the journey back to Orodruin (assuming this trip was necessary, since it is said that only the One had to be destroyed only there). Even if it was at the top of his “to do list”, I personally doubt that Sauron, in his much weakened state, could have recovered the rings from the Nazgul for many years.

The point being perhaps what you're doing here is more projecting what you would think and do in a similar situation than describing accurately what the 9 ex-kings felt and wanted.
What else can I do? We don’t know a great deal about what the Nazgul thought (before or after they became wraiths). Whenever one considers someone else’s actions or motivations, his own feelings will bias that view. I think that is inescapable no matter how objective one tries to be. At least it is for me. But you are right when you say that it might not be an accurate assessment. It is just an (educated) guess.

>> I would think it is very likely that at least one of the Nazgul wished to end his existence in Middle Earth.

Even accepting this as true (I have my doubts), why so soon? Why not after, say, 10,000 years? Or 6,000? Or 12,000?
Again, just a (less educated, this time) guess. Apparently humans could still desire life after 400 years (see the Numenoreans). But why would Eru “design” Men to not seek escape for thousands of years? It just seems a bit excessive for people who only live for such a relatively short time.

By the way Jon, I do appreciate you cutting/pasting the FAQ. Like I said, I have seen it before (I think Gordis posted a link to it once), but maybe some of the others here haven’t. I think it is a pretty solid argument.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

By the way Jon, I do appreciate you cutting/pasting the FAQ. Like I said, I have seen it before (I think Gordis posted a link to it once), but maybe some of the others here haven’t. I think it is a pretty solid argument.
I appreciate it too. I hadn't seen it before and it was a good read. Thanks. :)

There isn't a lot known about the Nine Rings right? Maybe some of the power that Sauron put into them was to robe them of this thought. Make them 'forget' about the desire to leave Middle-Earth. I mean, they weren't designed to be given to say.....hobbits, or dragons, or whatever, right? I don't know much about the lore of the Rings of Power. I've only read The Hobbit and the LotR series so most of what I know I've picked up here. Which I am most thankful for. :) You see, I'm lazy and if someone can just tell me the info without me having to do the work to look it up, I'll take it. :p

[Gordis]

I agree with most of what you say CAB.

My thoughts:
1. Nazgul may have been suicidal because of the weariness of their fëar.
Indeed even the Elven fear were not supposed to endure for long in the Mortal Lands - the Elves either departed for Valinor, or faded. How long did it take them to grow weary of the World? about 6.500 years for Elrond the Half-Elven, about the same for Galadriel. And note, for 3000 years out of 6500 they were protected from fading by their Rings. Celeborn, Erestor and K, though had no Rings, still lived for 3000 years in the Elvish ring-protected enclaves - Imladris and Lorien. Cirdan, the most enduring, stayed in ME from the very begginning, and was protected by his Ring for only about a 1000 years. (I count the time when the Rings were actually wielded). Anyway, as there is talk of the Lingerers- faded Elves, I guess, quite a number (who didn't depart) faded much sooner - in 3000-4000 years Their hroar were consumed by their fëar.

The fëar of Men were never meant to endure so long within the Circles of the World. CAB is right, 400 years was clearly not enough for them, but Elros laid down his life at 550 - I guess it was his choice, as he has grown weary. If not, I guess, in 1000 years most men would have been tired of living. Nazgul knew all about it, of course, their lives seemed endless, but at the end each day was a weariness. Now they couldn't give their Rings away, and they couldn't destroy them - so they turned into wraiths.

The question is: Were the wraiths continuing to feel "world-weariness", as they did when living, or did they become "happy wraiths ;) "? We don't know for sure, but the nazgul, when they appear in LOTR, do not seem to be world-weary. They have a sense of humour (laughing at Frodo at the Ford and at Gandalf at the Gate), seem to have some vanity (WK's crown at the Gates of Minas-Tirith) and hopes for the future - like hoping to rule Gondor and/or Arnor.

2. So there is a second possibility: the nazgul were suicidal, NOT from the World-weariness, but because of the loss of freedom. Of course, whether they were "Kings, sorcerers or warriors of old", they were not the kind who enjoyed being enslaved. And they tasted freedom again in the Third Age, having lost their Rings only quite recently (70 years ago, if I am right, or 1000 years ago, if CAB is right - but even in this case there was "relative freedom" until Sauroin returned to Mordor).

3. And, as I have quite recently pointed out in "Gollum" thread, they may have been not suicidal at all, but only hoped to become free with the One Ring's and Sauron's destruction, believing that the destruction of the One does not necessarily entail the loss of power of the Nine.

Now your other points, CAB.

I would think it is very likely that at least one of the Nazgul wished to end his existence in Middle Earth.
I think you should put "at least two :eek: ". Facts point that at least Khamul and the Witch-King were not really keen on getting anywhere near the Ring. Khamul was the one who spoke with the Gaffer, rode by the hobbits on the road, and was remaining hidden by the Ferry, watching the hobbits who were getting onto it.

Early in the Third Age the Nazgul had the opportunity to end their “lives”. Sauron’s spirit was very weak and he didn’t have either the One or the nine rings. Any of the Nazgul who wished could have traveled to Orodruin and cast their rings into the fire. But there is the catch. I would guess that, just like Frodo, they were entirely incapable of destroying their rings (I guess this part is pretty obvious).
Exactly. They were incapable of destroying the Nine, as they were incapable to take the One and throw it into Orodruin on the way to Barad-Dur.

because of rumors concerning failed Nazgul suicide attempts (a little unlikely, I think) Unlikely, yes. If there were any such attempts, Sauron would have at least thought about the possible plan to destroy the One:
Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it.'. If he had dragged one of his "suicidal nazgul" from Summath Naur at least once :eek: :D , or at least heard such a rumour, he wouldn't be so confident, would he?


John S: We all agree, as far as I know, with your point about the Nazgul Rings being in Sauron's keeping at the END of the Third Age. Thank you for posting the quote from this excellent FAQ thread.

(What is not known is just when Sauron took the Nine Rings back from the Nazgûl, assuming that he did. We know it was some time before the Nazgûl began hunting for the One Ring, but whether it was immediately before or much earlier we cannot tell. That Sauron, even without the One, could get the Nazgûl to give up the Nine Rings, there is little doubt, since no mortal could have withheld even the One from him.) About "little doubt", here you again refer to the Letter 246. It is about a DIRECT confrontation of a ringbearer with Sauron. I agree that in a direct confrontation, no nazgul would have been able to withhold his Ring from Sauron. But first Sauron had to assume a physical form, which he did around TA 1000, or even later, I believe. Then Sauron had to arrange this direct confrontation, right? Try to get to someone surrounded by a whole army of followers, as the Witch-King had been in Carn-Dum or in Minas Morgul. Especially if the nazgul is wary, and you are unable to shift shape, or to assume a fair form again. :p Try to catch another nazgul who flees, every time there is a suspicion that the Necromancer may be near... :D I guess it was pretty hard to get those Nine Rings, even the Dwarves's rings were not easy to get.

The question WHEN Sauron got the 9 rings was much debated in my thread "Were the Nazgul free from Sauron...". I would be happy to hear your opinion.

[Gordis]

There isn't a lot known about the Nine Rings right? Maybe some of the power that Sauron put into them was to robe them of this thought. Make them 'forget' about the desire to leave Middle-Earth. I mean, they weren't designed to be given to say.....hobbits, or dragons, or whatever, right?
The Nine Rings, as well as the other 10 were desined for the Elves initially. It is said that Sauron "perverted" them, either at their forging or later, when he got them.

Indeed Rings look after themselves. The possessor is incapable to harm his Ring (look at Celebrimbor! Look at Frodo!), often incapable to give it away or to keep it locked somewhere and not to use it (though the Elves managed to keep them unused, and Bilbo and Cirdan and Gil-Galad gave away their Rings).
Bilbo says:
‘It has been so growing on my mind lately. Sometimes I have felt it was like an eye looking at me. And I am always wanting to put it on and disappear, don’t you know; or wondering if it is safe, and pulling it out to make sure. I tried locking it up, but I found I couldn’t rest without it in my pocket. I don’t know why. And I don’t seem able to make up my mind.’
Gandalf about Bilbo Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once. That was the first real warning I had that all was not well. I told Bilbo often that such rings were better left unused; but he resented it, and soon got angry.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

The Nine Rings, as well as the other 10 were desined for the Elves initially. It is said that Sauron "perverted" them, either at their forging or later, when he got them.
So, after the ring dude(I can't recall his name right now :o ) made the rings for the elves, Sauron took them all and curupted them, then gave them to the dwaves, men, and the three to the elves? I'm confused. My theory that he made them 'forget' about leaving Middle-Earth still holds up then, right?

[Gordis]

Well Sauron attacked Hollin, killed Celebrimbor, who made the Rings, but only found 7 and 9. As for the Three, the Elves hid them: one (Nenya) was given to Galadriel and two were sent to Lindon. Vilya came to Gil-Galad (later to Elrond), Narya was given to Cirdan (and later to Gandalf). So Sauron didn't touch the Three.

As for your theory, it may hold, yes.

[Landroval]

often incapable to give it away
Thror gave his ring to Thrain and the elves passed on the rings like bongs ;); [as a side note, Gandalf states that even Bilbo gave the one ring by free will, and from Isildur's scroll, we know that he intended for his heirs to have it too].

[Gordis]

Thror gave his ring to Thrain and the elves passed on the rings like bongs ;); [as a side note, Gandalf states that even Bilbo gave the one ring by free will, and from Isildur's scroll, we know that he intended for his heirs to have it too].Right.

Interesting this part about Isildur... It seems the guy didn't even know that he was to live VERY long, and that he would become a wraith, and then he would really need his Ring. Heirloom of the house, indeed!

[CAB]

Interesting this part about Isildur... It seems the guy didn't even know that he was to live VERY long, and that he would become a wraith, and then he would really need his Ring. Heirloom of the house, indeed!
Hey!! Who said he would become a wraith?! :)

[Jon S.]

I don't have any more or better answers to these questions than everyone else has already expressed, I just want to thank Landroval for the laugh. :D

>> Thror gave his ring to Thrain and the elves passed on the rings like bongs ;)

[Butterbeer]

:D

and thrain kinda to Thorin ....

er... just how did he (Thrain) keep it secret from undercover S the Necromancer in Dol Guldor?

Up his jacksy??? :eek:

..would not the red hot pokers have noticed??????????


sorry Jon ... thought you were Johnathon the swede .... knowing me, probably wasn't paying attention...

and..er .. in that case, hello btw :) !

yeah, elves and bongs ... flowers and long hair ... trees and woodstock ...

[Landroval]

and thrain kinda to Thorin ....

er... just how did he (Thrain) keep it secret from undercover S the Necromancer in Dol Guldor?
Err, no actually:
Balin will find no ring in Moria, said Gandalf. Thror gave it to Thrain his son, but not Thrain to Thorin. It was taken with torment from Thrain in the dungeons of Dol Guldur. I came too late.

[Butterbeer]

oh yeah ..sorry- i was thinking of the key... and the map .... :eek: ... obviously neither would be of interest to sauron! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

**edit*# - well i must away ere break of day ... get some sleep, ere my mind gets more addled ...

night all.

BB

[Landroval]

You know, I wonder, why was it necessary to take the ring _with torment_? Wouldn't sheer force suffice? Perhaps a common feature of the power rings was to be hidden to everyone and hold on to its master. [Gandalf maintained his ring, even though he was imprisoned by Saruman and even when reimbodied; Sauron too kept the ring to himself all the time, with the destruction of Numenor and whatnot; we could speculate about how Galadriel and Elrond kept their rings secret too...]

[Gordis]

You know, I wonder, why was it necessary to take the ring _with torment_? Wouldn't sheer force suffice? Perhaps a common feature of the power rings was to be hidden to everyone and hold on to its master. [Gandalf maintained his ring, even though he was imprisoned by Saruman and even when reimbodied; Sauron too kept the ring to himself all the time, with the destruction of Numenor and whatnot; we could speculate about how Galadriel and Elrond kept their rings secret too...]
It is way too interesting, and off-topic here. I am opening a special thread for it here (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=552988#post552988) . :)

[CAB]

Indeed even the Elven fear were not supposed to endure for long in the Mortal Lands - the Elves either departed for Valinor, or faded.
Your right Gordis. I hadn’t thought about that. So it seems very unlikely that Men would desire life in Middle Earth for thousands of years. But in the case of the Nazgul...

The question is: Were the wraiths continuing to feel "world-weariness", as they did when living
No, the Nazgul weren’t ordinary Men, so maybe they didn’t feel “world-weariness”. But I think they did. I doubt that the rings could completely overcome the nature of Men (as made by Eru). Also there is this:
‘Oathbreakers, why have ye come?’
And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away: ‘To fulfil our oath and have peace.’ - The Return of the King
The Dead Men weren’t exactly the same as the Nazgul, but they are about as close as we can get, and they desired release.
We don't know for sure, but the nazgul, when they appear in LOTR, do not seem to be world-weary. They have a sense of humour (laughing at Frodo at the Ford and at Gandalf at the Gate), seem to have some vanity (WK's crown at the Gates of Minas-Tirith) and hopes for the future - like hoping to rule Gondor and/or Arnor.
Maybe this indicates a lack of weariness, but to me it seems more of a half-acceptance of fate.

So there is a second possibility: the nazgul were suicidal, NOT from the World-weariness, but because of the loss of freedom. Of course, whether they were "Kings, sorcerers or warriors of old", they were not the kind who enjoyed being enslaved.
I think this could be a strong motivation. But, like Jon indicated, this is more of a personal opinion than anything else. There have certainly been many slaves in the history of the real world. I know nothing of what their suicide rates were like.

And, as I have quite recently pointed out in "Gollum" thread, they may have been not suicidal at all, but only hoped to become free with the One Ring's and Sauron's destruction, believing that the destruction of the One does not necessarily entail the loss of power of the Nine.
Very possible. The reason that the Nazgul could be ensnared by Sauron had much to do with their ignorance of the rings’ powers. That Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf suspected that the destruction of the One would cause the failure of the other great rings says nothing about what the Nazgul believed.

I think you should put "at least two :eek: ". Facts point that at least Khamul and the Witch-King were not really keen on getting anywhere near the Ring. Khamul was the one who spoke with the Gaffer, rode by the hobbits on the road, and was remaining hidden by the Ferry, watching the hobbits who were getting onto it.
If you interpret the Nazguls’ actions/inactions this way, you could be right. This isn’t what I was referring to though. I just meant that with nine different people with nine different personalities, it seems that at least one would wish to end his existence. I was just playing the percentages, so to speak.

If he had dragged one of his "suicidal nazgul" from Summath Naur at least once :eek: :D , or at least heard such a rumour, he wouldn't be so confident, would he?
Yeah, your probably right. I didn’t think about that.

The question WHEN Sauron got the 9 rings was much debated in my thread "Were the Nazgul free from Sauron...". I would be happy to hear your opinion.
I would very much like to see your opinion on this too, Jon. I always enjoy reading your posts.

Thror gave his ring to Thrain and the elves passed on the rings like bongs ;); [as a side note, Gandalf states that even Bilbo gave the one ring by free will, and from Isildur's scroll, we know that he intended for his heirs to have it too].
Your right Landroval. I remember Gandalf saying that Bilbo was the only one to willingly give away a great ring (and I believed it too, what a dummy). But really, there are several cases of rings being freely given to other holders.

[Gordis]

Yes, I see. I think most nazgul were both weary of the World and hating their current situation of new enslavement.

Perhaps, world-weariness also became much stronger, when they lost their Rings. After all, with the Elves, it were the Rings, wielded Rings, that protected the holders and their surroundings from becoming World-weary.

And the main property of "ALL the Rings alike" was "preservation" after all.

So, having surrounded their Rings to Sauron, the nazgul lost their only protection, much like Galadriel and Elrond were compelled to leave ME, after their Rings lost power.