Chapter one-the boy who lived

[jammi567]

This chapter starts off by saying straightaway that the Dursley’s were normal and didn’t believe in magic. The description of them sets them up as being total opposites Whilst Mr Dursley is being set up as fat and strong looking; Mrs Dursley is thin and bony.

Why do you think this is?

The third paragraph then tells us that they have a secret, but we’re not told what it is yet, and that they would be shocked if the Potter’s ever came to visit them because they’re as unDursleyish as it was possible to be. They also know that the Potter’s have a small child, and that was another reason to keep away-they didn’t want Dudley mixing with a child like that.

How does Mrs Dursley know that they have a son around Dudley’s age if they haven’t met or spoken in several years?

We are then told of what happened on that “ordinary” Tuesday from Mr Dursley’s POV. As he’s travelling to work, he then sees a cat reading a map, and then reading the street sign, but, as we find out later, this is actually Professor McGonagall.

Why do you think she was reading a map and reading the street sign when she's going to sit there for the whole day and half the night?

As he is in the traffic jam, he notices a lot of people in cloaks, which he first thinks is a new fashion, then a charity thing. He then has a normal morning of making phone calls, and then shouting at people. However, the people on the street see all the owls about.

At this point of the book, what do you think is the significance of all the owls?

He then goes to the bakery and hears people talking about the Potter’s, and especially Harry.

How does the wizard world know that Voldemort is defeated and that the Potter’s are dead, and yet Harry survives?

When he leaves work, an old wizard tells him that you-know-who is defeated and that everyone should celebrate.

Do you think the Dursley’s know who you-know-who would even be? I only ask this because later on in the series, Patunia obviously knows who Voldemort is, but Vernon doesn't. (Book 5, Chapter 2).

He then gets home and sees the same cat on the wall. He then worries about what the wizards said, but acts normal for Mrs Dursley, who says that Dudley learnt a new word today. He then watches the late night news. Ted reports that hundreds of owls have been seen across the country, and “allowed himself a grin”. He also reported that there were shooting stars about.

Why do you think he does this? Is it because he is Ted Tonks, who married a witch, and so would know why there were loads of owls and shooting stars about.

Mr Dursley and his wife then talk about her sister, and how old Harry is, and what a horrible name it is.

We know that the Dursley’s don’t like anything unusual, so why pick a name like Dudley? After all, that name is a bit strange. From a surname which was originally from a place name meaning "Dudda's clearing" in Old English.

They both go to bed, but Mr Dursley thinks about why they wouldn’t come near his family. One they’re both asleep, Dumbledore Apperates onto the street. He then takes out a Put-Outer to put out the streetlights. He then walks over to Professor McGonagall, who says that she was sitting on that brick wall all day, and they talk about the celebrations and such. Then they talk about something that I think is really important:
“Voldemort had powers I will never have.”
“Only because you’re too-well-noble to use them”

Why do you think JKR uses the term Put-Outer? Why was McGonagall sitting on a brick wall all day? What did the people who had Transfiguration that day do, or had to see the headmaster? What is the significance of that statement? Dumbledore also says that he passed a dozen feasts that day. But if he was Apperating around, how could he have passed them?

He then says that James and Lily are dead, and she says about the curse rebounding off Harry. Then whilst she cries, he looks into his twelve handed watch with planets around the edges.

What is it? What do you think it tells?

It is only now why he tells her why he came there, to leave him (Harry) with his aunt and uncle (Mr and Mrs Dursley). In response, she tells him how bad they are, so he says that it’s best for Harry to remain there. We are then told that Hagrid is bringing him, and Dumbledore says “I would trust Hagrid with my life”.

Why the massive trust in him? As far as I can remember, we haven’t been given a reason yet.

Suddenly, a motorcycle comes down with Hagrid on it, carrying Harry.

This is the chance to go wild. You can now put down any theories you want to of why there is a missing day from when Voldemort was defeated (nearly midnight on 31st October) to now (nearly midnight on 1st November). Here is a theory to get you started. (Warning, contains spoilers. Note:is the same theory, just in six parts. Here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theundergroundlake/tul01.shtml), here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theundergroundlake/tul02.shtml), here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theundergroundlake/tul03.shtml), here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theundergroundlake/tul04.shtml), here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theundergroundlake/tul05.shtml) and here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theundergroundlake/tul06.shtml)).

Hagrid tells them that he managed to get Harry out of the house before Muggles swarmed the place, and he met Sirius Black who lent him the motorcycle. They all then say their goodbyes to Harry, and Dumbledore puts a letter explaining things to them. Dumbledore then puts the lights back into the lamps. They each then go their separate ways, and Privet Drive returns to normal.

Additional discussion points:

What was Dumbledore doing all that day?
What was Mrs Dursley doing that day?
How would Hagrid know where to go to pick up Harry?
What was in the letter that he wrote on the 1st November?
How did he know that Lily had used Love to defeat Voldemort?

If there are any more points to make, then please mention them. I hope this is good for a first timer.

[durinsbane2244]

What was in the letter that he wrote on the 1st November?
How did he know that Lily had used Love to defeat Voldemort?

well, for the first, it probably told petunia to keep harry with her until he came of age so he was protected, and how he was obviously a target of Voldemort because he took down Voldy. this much can be seen from the "remember my last!" later in the series, and her knowing that harry HAD to stay.

as to the second, that can be put in along with the Dumbledore/Ron theory, so he's already lived through this, or he's just smart and knew that Lily wouldn't leave her child to die, and than remembered the "ancient magic" that Voldemort forgot.

[Serenoli]

Hello, jammi!

For a first time, that was very good, actually :)

Why do you think she was reading a map and reading the street sign when she's going to sit there for the whole day and half the night?

Probably, she had just turned up, and wanted to be sure she was in the right place before she begins her wait... alternatively, she was just restless and/or bored.

At this point of the book, what do you think is the significance of all the owls?

Just setting the scene. She wants to introduce the concept of wizards to us, and at the same time, she wants us to be in some suspense, as to what all these mysterious signs portend, all of which signs are explained when Dumbledore turns up.

How does the wizard world know that Voldemort is defeated and that the Potter’s are dead, and yet Harry survives?

That is puzzling. I assume the Death Eaters would know, because a) he probably told them where he was going, and b) because they would feel it in their dark Marks, just like they felt it when he regained his body. But how everyone else found out, I have no idea. I would have assumed someone had gone to Godric's Hollow and found out, but wouldn't the same person have discovered Harry, and brought him along? I just discovered the theory links touch on this same question, so I'll read it a bit before posting further...

[Serenoli]

Well, that still didn't answer it all satisfactorily... how everyone found out, you know. We know, for sure, that Hagrid and Sirius have been there, and Muggle neighbours, but do we really know who else was there? The Death Eaters could know, and in that case, perhaps Snape realized what happened, and he informed Dumbledore, who probably spent his day checking up on this. Still does not explain how wizards on the street knew.

The theory that Cornelius Fudge was in on it all, and found out from Wormtail, and then spread the story might explain how everyone knew, but how would he explain how he knew? If he just stated it as fact, how many would actually believe him, without proof? Of course, he could not tell anyone how he knew, so he could not tell them at all...

And the details were not hazy. Everyone seemed to know, that Voldy killed Harry's parents and then tried killing Harry, and then died. But the evidence was just this: Two people dead, a smouldering house, a baby lying there with a scar on his head. No one has survived the Avada Kedavra before, so how do you know that it leaves such a scar? How do so many people know the curse rebounded on Voldy, when there seem to have been no eye-witnesses to it all except Voldy and Harry? Surely, Voldy, a black, sorta invisible spirit, didn't go around telling people what happened?

As for the Fidelius Charm, it is a tricky question. One thing is certain, Dumbledore couldn't have known the location, because he didn't know that Pettigrew was the Secret-keeper, so he didn't perform the spell. Probably, one of the Potters did it, and Dumbledore assumed it was Sirius, but at the last moment, they changed it to Pettigrew. And, so, when the Potters were killed by Voldemort, the spell was undone

(this assumption is based on the Body-binding charm D. did on Harry before he died, and which was undone when D. died... but then, how come the enchantments on the Black house by Sirius' parents still survived? This question will be settled in Book Seven, for we shall see if the Fidelius Charm done by Dumbledore on Grimmauld Place outlives him)

- and then, anyone could come in. Presumably, Pettigrew went in and retrieved Voldy's wand, and was too scared to try and finish off Harry given what happened to Voldy, and, alternatively, he told the Death Eaters of Voldy's death. Still, how did all those guys in cloaks find out? All we need, of course, is for one reliable wizard to find out, and then, it will spread like wildfire... there is still much information about that night that we still don't know. I suspect the proposed visit to Godric's Hollow has something to do with clearing all this up.

[Serenoli]

Why the massive trust in him? As far as I can remember, we haven’t been given a reason yet.

Same can so easily be said of Snape. Thats a question I'm reserving judgement on. If Snape really does turn out to be evil, then I'll just say 'because Dumbledore trusts everyone, and so obviously Hagrid'. If Snape does turn out to be good, and we get a more substantial reason than the one cited, (you know, Snape was remorseful etc. which could just be a good bit of acting) and we know, for sure that D. is not just a silly trusting fool, then, I shall say that either, there was a good reason tp trust Hagrid, or because its so hard not to trust Hagrid. Dumbledore has known him quite well since Hagrid came to Hogwarts, and knows Hagrid owes him a lot.

But, at that point in the story, I guess it was more to let us know the relation betwen them... and perhaps Dumbledore was in a bit of a touchy mood right then, about the 'trust' factor. I mean, he (and the Potters) had trusted Sirius, and just a few hours back Sirius had betrayed them (or so he thought)... and so didn't like McGonagall questioning his trust in Hagrid... perhaps, he was feeling a lot of guilt about the whole affair.

[jammi567]

The Death Eaters could know, and in that case, perhaps Snape realized what happened, and he informed Dumbledore, who probably spent his day checking up on this.
Why would he have told his death eaters? Afterall, Voldy essentually works alone, and he only took wormtale because he had to show voldy where godrics hollow was. However, they would probally know when he was defeated when they saw their Dark mark on their arms disappear. Whose who worked in the Ministry probally told people, but made up lies to cover how they knew. Only a idea of course.

[durinsbane2244]

the dark mark probably didn't all-together dissapear. as Voldemort never actually died, his enchantments and still active, and thus they most likely just faded, so someone had to have told them...

[jammi567]

I've got another theory on that lost day that could explain some of the events, here (http://www.redhen-publications.com/24Hours.html).

[Serenoli]

ok, all this timeline thing is making my head spin!

Still, this theory explains better how so many people found out, because obviously, if there were a lot of time adjustments, then there would be more time for rumours to get out and spread. Unlike the theorist, I do think Rowling will explain what happened that night, at least some of it. At the least, it may have some bearing on the horcruxes. At any rate, since Harry is going back to G's Hollow in bk7, there is bound to be something fishy he will find out there.

[jammi567]

At any rate, since Harry is going back to G's Hollow in bk7, there is bound to be something fishy he will find out there.
Ok, just because harry says this, it doesn't mean it's going to happen. From what i understand of the charm, the charm keeps the place a secret, so long as all the potters survive, including harry. And as long as peter doesn't die, or tell harry where the place is, then harry is not going to find it at all.

[Spock]

Who is Peter? :confused:

[jammi567]

peter pettigrew

[Spock]

yeah, but he's not a Potter and so I didn't understand the remark. :(

[durinsbane2244]

i don't think that he meant peter was a potter, i think he meant that he needs to live for the charm to work.

[jammi567]

yesssssssssss.

[durinsbane2244]

yes, but here's a point. if peter was the secret keeper, than in order for anyone to find the potter's, and harry on the night of Voldy's demise and such, peter would have to tell them the local. if he told them, they would know he was the secret keeper. interesting, eh? :D

[jammi567]

peter would have to tell them the local.
:confused:

[Butterbeer]

How would Hagrid know where to go to pick up Harry?

... i'm guessing ...

Magic! :p

Nice work Jammi.

[durinsbane2244]

:confused:

location. peter would need to tell DD/Hagrid/anyone else where to find the dead potters.

[Spock]

we all know where the dead potters were from book 1 so I don't really understand this line of thinking.

[jammi567]

We've worked out and so know roughly where Godrics Hollow is, but does Harry himself know? Here (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-is-godrics-hollow-in-wales.html) is an essay saying where it could be

[Ireth]

Personally, I think, the Fidelius charm, like the unbreakable vow would need a third person to actually perform it. So, apart from the ones being protected and the secretkeeper, there is a possibility that the performer of the charm may also have known the location.


On another note, the Potters may have chosen to let Dumbledore know their location, seeing that he was the head of the Order.

[durinsbane2244]

i'm saying that in order for anyone to find Godric's Hollow the night that the potters were killed to get harry, peter would have had to told them, so they should have known he was the secret keeper. understand?

[jammi567]

makes sense. of course.

[durinsbane2244]

so therefore, it does NOT make sense that everyone thought sirius was the secret-keeper, yet they were still able to retrieve harry from the wreckage.

[jammi567]

Maybe, like Ireth said, the potters told dumbledore (as he practically owned the whole of wiziding brition) where they were going to hide (or maybe he suggested it himself), but they forgot to mention that they changed secret keepers.

[durinsbane2244]

even if he already knew, the charm would make them unfindable. so there. :p

[jammi567]

But surely, if you knew where they were hiding, even with the charm in effect, you're not going to go 'oh dear, i suddenly can't remember where the potter's live', and then when the charm's lifted, 'oh, i suddenly know/remember where they live', are you?

[durinsbane2244]

er, yeah. see, that's magic, eh? ;)

[Serenoli]

Yes, it makes sense. Like how Grimmauld Place pops up in the midst of two other houses... it gave me a headach when I first tried to imagine it. To me, it is clear one of the Potters performed the spell, and so when they died, the spell lifted, and people didn't need Pettigrew to find the house. They, in fact, suddenly knew where it was. That may have been sufficient to inform Dumbledore that the Potters were murdered, without needing details from Snape.

This is however, an assumption only, and I'll only be certain if I find Dumbledore's Fidelius Charm on Grimmauld Place has also lifted after his death.

[durinsbane2244]

yes, see, that's the thing. it has to be that way. otherwise, the question will be raised as to how they found the dead potters and harry.

[klatukatt]

Maybe, like Ireth said, the potters told dumbledore (as he practically owned the whole of wiziding brition) where they were going to hide (or maybe he suggested it himself), but they forgot to mention that they changed secret keepers.

"as he practically owned the whole of wiziding brition"
I can see that. Dumbledore rules you ALLL!

~~~

One thought, though I don't know if this was already mentioned, about Minerva and Albus's absence from Hogwarts:
Wasn't Hogwarts closed because of the threat of attack?
I mean, they were ready to close the school when the Chamber of Secrets was opened again.

[durinsbane2244]

oooh! clever, klat katt! [oh yeah, left out the u, you know it] good point...

[jammi567]

One thought, though I don't know if this was already mentioned, about Minerva and Albus's absence from Hogwarts:
Wasn't Hogwarts closed because of the threat of attack?
I mean, they were ready to close the school when the Chamber of Secrets was opened again.
What attack? the one thing voldy didn't do because of dumbledore was to try and attack the school. therefore, why would the school have to close?

[durinsbane2244]

they most likely closed it because they feared that with his increased powers he WOULD attack it. i mean, a wee lizard was loose and they considered shutting down, if the lord of all darkness is out there, i think it might have been thought of. ;)

[jammi567]

But why would there be any point in trying to attack the school in the first place, apart from trying to kill dumbledore. wouldn't it be better to attack the minestry, especially as they had enough bloody insiders to do it.

[durinsbane2244]

that was probably on his list too. see, like DD was saying, he would make it a training ground, eh?

[jammi567]

Do you want to answer any of the other questionds of about 20 that i have?

[durinsbane2244]

lol, i have answer a FEW others... :D

anyway,

Why do you think JKR uses the term Put-Outer? Why was McGonagall sitting on a brick wall all day? What did the people who had Transfiguration that day do, or had to see the headmaster? What is the significance of that statement? Dumbledore also says that he passed a dozen feasts that day. But if he was Apperating around, how could he have passed them?

let's seee..... Put-Outer, because this book was a children's book and it is simple and direct. McGonagall was checking out the area, family, and waiting for DD. I think it has been mentioned that the school was probably closed ;) DD obviously had to be asking around to find out what's shakin', even he need to find these things out, and also, in book 6, we see that is is rude to apparate immediately at or in one's home, so he had to hoof it a bit. i think that was rather good...

[jammi567]

When you say that they closed the school for the day, do you mean that they simply had no leasons that day, despite all the other teachers there, or some other meaning?

[durinsbane2244]

no, i mean like, complete shut-down for safety reasons, like they considered in the CoS.

[jammi567]

for one day!

[sun-star]

How does Mrs Dursley know that they have a son around Dudley’s age if they haven’t met or spoken in several years?

Lily might have written to her sister to let her know about Harry's birth. This also raises the interesting question of whether Petunia is still in touch with her parents, or whether they're dead, since they could also be a source of information about Lily's life.

Why do you think she was reading a map and reading the street sign when she's going to sit there for the whole day and half the night?

Some people (among whom I count myself ;)) will read absolutely anything that happens to be front of them, rather than have nothing to read. I suspect Professor McG is like that :D

Mr Dursley and his wife then talk about her sister, and how old Harry is, and what a horrible name it is.

We know that the Dursley’s don’t like anything unusual, so why pick a name like Dudley? After all, that name is a bit strange. From a surname which was originally from a place name meaning "Dudda's clearing" in Old English.

I think this is a sign that the Dursleys don't really understand the social rules they're trying to live up to. Maybe Petunia once read something about Dudley as an aristocratic surname and thought it sounded sophisticated? We can tell the Dursleys are ignorant and/or prejudiced when it comes to names, since they think Harry is a "nasty, common name" when it's actually quite upper-class.

It is only now why he tells her why he came there, to leave him (Harry) with his aunt and uncle (Mr and Mrs Dursley). In response, she tells him how bad they are, so he says that it’s best for Harry to remain there. We are then told that Hagrid is bringing him, and Dumbledore says “I would trust Hagrid with my life”.

Why the massive trust in him? As far as I can remember, we haven’t been given a reason yet.

My guess is that Dumbledore, like Harry later on, trusts Hagrid because his heart is in the right place. He's very loyal and cares deeply for his friends. However, as we've seen, this doesn't always mean he makes great decisions.

I just looked at that part of the chapter and McG in fact says "his heart's in the right place", so I'll stick with that theory :D Also, how difficult could it be to carry a baby from Godric's Hollow to Surrey? As long as he didn't drop Harry, Hagrid could hardly go wrong...

[jammi567]

Lily might have written to her sister to let her know about Harry's birth. This also raises the interesting question of whether Petunia is still in touch with her parents, or whether they're dead, since they could also be a source of information about Lily's life.
I think that they're dead, because otherwise, the Dursley's wouldn't be Harry's remaining reletives.

[sun-star]

That's true. I suppose they might have died in the period between Harry's birth and the Potters' deaths - it would be interesting to know if Lily's parents died naturally or not.

[jammi567]

i don't think we'll ever know now (unless Patunia reveals everything to harry at the beginning of the 7th book).

[durinsbane2244]

for one day!

i doubt it. it could've been closed for some time. also, the order of the pheonix probably wasn't secret then, so it was most likely known that DD and most of the teachers were needed.

[jammi567]

poor kids who couldn't complete their education then.

[durinsbane2244]

they probably finished up over what would've been the break or something. DD would've found a solution, i'm sure.

[Butterbeer]

Quote:
Why do you think she was reading a map and reading the street sign when she's going to sit there for the whole day and half the night?


plus ...you gotta remember it's a whole different muggle world sans magic!!!

She may well find it as fascinating as Mr weasly does!

To her it may be as absorbing as a griddler or nanogram or crossword puzzle or somesuch! :D


I always took that to be a subtle touch to help develop the dual but convergant worlds they live in simultaneously.

best, BB

[Butterbeer]

Quote:
Mr Dursley and his wife then talk about her sister, and how old Harry is, and what a horrible name it is.

We know that the Dursley’s don’t like anything unusual, so why pick a name like Dudley? After all, that name is a bit strange. From a surname which was originally from a place name meaning "Dudda's clearing" in Old English.


yes, to a degree i agree with Sun Star ... (...don't mention the W word...)

but mainly it is for setting the scene in a matter of a few words and also for comic effect ...we have the overly large brusque overbearing eejit, the thin, neurotic and pompusly named petunia ...and the pig like, spoilt, only child of stooopid pompous, faux middle class ...

a few well placed words and we are reading in meanings and shape and form already.

I call that good writing.

Go see Big C's 'hook' thread!

Same principle.


Of course the main point is to show up their 'normality' and their insistent desire to cling to it and their desire let it shut them up in a suburban sized narrow box .... as against the parallel of harry and the world of Wizards ... and the hypocrosy of their wanting to "normalize" harry ..



best, BB

[durinsbane2244]

come on, chaps, only a few days left. can anyone think of anything interesting to say? i can't... :p

[jammi567]

What was Mrs Dursley doing that day?
Maybe she was replying to letters dd sent her, and shouting 'won't' all the time, hense how dudly learnt a new word, plus why she was so uptight that night.

[durinsbane2244]

run by klat the great! ruler of all katts! i shall dispatch a PM promptly!

[jammi567]

She may well find it as fascinating as Mr weasly does!
To her it may be as absorbing as a griddler or nanogram or crossword puzzle or somesuch! :D
best, BB
Interesting. but i would think that afer an hour or so, that would get extreamly boring.

[jammi567]

The significance of the statement that dd has powerful powers, but is too nobal to use them may mean that he has studied the dark arts, to understand the effects and get an idea of what voldy and the death eaters would use, but won't actually use them because he's fighting for the side of good.

[Serenoli]

Interesting. but i would think that afer an hour or so, that would get extreamly boring.

Yes, well, was she reading for an hour or so? Dursley only saw her looking at them. Personally, I thought she was checking the map and road-sign to make sure she was in the right place, Hagrid's instructions might have been vague. And she spent the rest of the day spying on the Dursleys, and waiting for DD. Very dull... :eek:

[jammi567]

But how can we be sure that Hagrid knew specifically knew where he was going?

[jammi567]

And why would McGonagall be sitting on a brick wall in the first place?

[x0xfaizax0x]

Because its not unsual]