Celebrimbor or Gil-galad as high king!!!!!

[The Telcontarion]

I always imagined that as noble as Celebrimbor was, just as he was held in high regard in nograthond, even when his father and uncle were chased out, so too Celebrimbor would have been held in high esteem in the second age, even by Erienion himself. I had always fancied Erienion Gil-galad, being as wise as he was, would give over the kingship of the eldar to Celebrimbor to set things aright. So that the eldest house of Finwe, would no longer be the dispossessed and Gil-gald would take his place as the herald of his one true liegelord; ultimately make the words and deeds of Morgoth become untruth and fruitless.

Only I think as great and wise as Celebrimbor himself was, he probably would refuse unfortunately, for he would not wish to bring the curse of Feanor down upon the Noldor once again.

Comments.

[jammi567]

can you make that a bit clearer please.

[Arien the Maia]

did he not already bring the curse of Feanor upon them by creating rings of power to begin with?

even so, I vote for Celebrimbor...just as skillful as his hot grandpa! ;)

[The Telcontarion]

I don't think the making of the ring had anything to do with the curse. Remember Celebrimbor rebuked his father and uncle at Nagrothond, so he was no longer under it from that time. Also LOTR stated that even though he harkened to Sauron in his fair seeming, he remained true and was the first to hear the words of Sauron when he first uttered them (one ring to find them...) and saw the danger and warned the Eldar.

But I fear being wise (or over causious) I do not believe he would risk rousing it again by taking up the kingship in the 2nd age.

I personally believe, that just as with king Arvedui, in LOTR it stated that if he was granted the kingship of gondor much evil would have been averted. If the kingship of the Eldar were to have passed to Celebrimbor, so too I believe much of the evil at that time would have been averted; even though he would have harkened to Sauron sooner and Gil-galad would not have had the oppurtunity to reject him first.

I always fancied that though Gil-galad was king, in the presence of Celebrimbor he always differed; if only behind close doors.

[Arien the Maia]

I don't think the making of the ring had anything to do with the curse. Remeber Celebrimbor rebuked his father and uncle at Nagrothond, so he was no longer under it from that time. Also LOTR stated that even though he harkened to Sauron in his fair seeming, he remained true and was the first to hear the words of Sauron when he first uttered them (one ring to find them...) and saw the danger and warned the Eldar.

But I fear being wise (or over causious) I do not believe he would risk rousing it again by taking up the kingship in the 2nd age.

I personally believe, that just as with king Arvedui, in LOTR it stated that if he was granted the kingship of gondor much evil would have been averted. If the kingship of the Eldar were to have passed to Celebrimbor, so too I believe much of the evil at that time would have been averted; even though he would have harkened to Sauron sooner and Gil-galad would not have had the oppurtunity to reject him first.

I always fancied that though Gil-galad was king, in the presence of Celebrimbor he always differed; if only behind close doors.

true...but...IMO the line of Feanor is where the true king comes from. Maedhros only abducated out of curtousy. I still think he should have been king after Feanor! LONG LIVE THE KING OF FIRE! :)

[The Telcontarion]

Amen my sister!!

[Arien the Maia]

:D lol!

[Landroval]

did he not already bring the curse of Feanor upon them by creating rings of power to begin with?

According to Of voyage of Earendil and the War of wrath, Silmarillion, the curse was laid to rest after the war of wrath.

[The Telcontarion]

According to Of voyage of Earendil and the War of wrath, Silmarillion, the curse was laid to rest after the war of wrath.

True, but Celebrimbor or Gil-galad.
:)

[jammi567]

Gil-galad because he's more active, whilst Celebrimbor only made some rings for god sake. :D

[The Telcontarion]

If I can remember correctly, Celebrimbor fought in every major battle in middle-earth up until the time of his death; that is far more active than Gil-galad.

But, you fancy "the star of radiance" and the "scion of kiings " over the "the hand of silver" maker of the rings of power, I feel you!!! :cool:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But the house of Fingolfin was now by right the family of the High Kings. Erenion was by right the High King and there was no reason for him to hand that right over.

[The Telcontarion]

Another on the side of Erienion.

[The Telcontarion]

Finally, I can concentrate on happier things.

Celebrimbor fo king!!!!

Your thoughts.

One on one who do you think would win, Cel or Gil. Slite off topic so don't run to much away from the main thread.

I personally think Cel would.

[The Telcontarion]

But the house of Fingolfin was now by right the family of the High Kings. Erenion was by right the High King and there was no reason for him to hand that right over.

Well, no reason other than what I stated about him wanting the eldest house of the noldor to be returned to it's proper stature. Certainly, you can see a mirror situation in the house of elendil returning to gondor, when Argorn became king. Even Denethor made the argument that the kingship was rightly that of the house of Menendil, younger of the houses of Elendil. For this reason Aragorns ancester Arvedui's claim for the kingship was rejected.

However no such legal obligation was on Gil to be sure, just a sentimental one.

[jammi567]

Technically, it should be C because he's the great-grandson of Finwe, whilst G is great x 4 grandson. see my point?

[Alcuin]

Gil-galad is High-King of the Eldar in Middle-earth and not Celebrimbor because of the Doom of the Noldor, which may also have affected the outcome of the MÃ*rdain’s manufacture of the Rings of Power:
‘…On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. ... To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well ... The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.

Emphasis mine.

[The Telcontarion]

Gil-galad is High-King of the Eldar in Middle-earth and not Celebrimbor because of the Doom of the Noldor, which may also have affected the outcome of the MÃ*rdain’s manufacture of the Rings of Power:
Quote:
‘…On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. ... To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well ... The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.

Emphasis mine.

I am afraid you might be right, however as our buddy Landroval pointed out, unless he was mistaken:

According to Of voyage of Earendil and the War of wrath, Silmarillion, the curse was laid to rest after the war of wrath.

[Alcuin]

I take the statement, “‘The Dispossessed shall they be for ever,’� to mean that the House of Fëanor forever lost its claim by primogenitor to the Kingship of the Noldor. Finarfin became High King of the Noldor in Tirion in his father’s place, and Fingolfin became High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth by the abdication of Maedhros.

Part of the reason Celebrimbor moved to Eregion was to be closer to his friends and allies, the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm. Part of it might also have been to be his own master: while he might acknowledge Gil-galad as High King, he was, in effect, king himself in Ost-in-Edhil. By the same token, when Fingolfin was High King, Maedhros effectively ruled his own kingdom from Himring. (BTW, “Himling,� as it is labeled on the maps, Tol Morwen, Tol Fuin and Lindon are all that remains above water of Beleriand after the First Age.)

But again, I think the words “for ever� meant just that. Fëanor was locked forever in Mandos because of his iniquities. Maedhros, Celegorm, Caranthir, and Curufin were likely locked away for ages, too, along with many of their followers. The House of Fëanor twice shed the blood of Elves unjustly, at Alqualondë and in Doriath, and Fëanor and his followers betrayed the rest of the Noldor and left them to die in the Helcaraxë. If part of becoming king is being recognized as king, it is unlikely that the greater part of the Noldor would have ever accepted a member of the House of Fëanor as High King. That’s not to say that a leading member of the house might not become the local ruler, as clearly happened at Himring, and was probably the case in Ost-in-Edhil.

[The Telcontarion]

Alcuin

It maybe that our friend landroval was wrong for I could not find wear in the voyage of Earindil, was the curse said to have been laid to rest.

Still I would see Celebrimbor king-with a silmaril upon his brow and carrying a sword and shield embued with the light of the other silmarilli. And the three unsolid, radiating with power on the fingers of his right hand. A sword stroke from that hand is the stroke of doom for all evil things.

Mightest of the house of Finwe and his heir Anwacurufinwe, "true" curufinwe; Feanor as he should have been.

[Landroval]

It maybe that our friend landroval was wrong for I could not find wear in the voyage of Earindil, was the curse said to have been laid to rest.
No worries ;)
And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.

[The Telcontarion]

No worries ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Of the voyage of Earendil and the war of wrath, Silmarillion
And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.

Thank you Landroval, long live the house of Feanor.

What did you think of Anwacurufinwe, called Anwa by his father. Elrond was the first to call him feanor.

[The Telcontarion]

Your thoughts.

One on one who do you think would win, Cel or Gil. Slite off topic so don't run to much away from the main thread.

I personally think Cel would.

Slite off topic, but who's your pick?

[Butterbeer]

Gil-galad because he's more active, whilst Celebrimbor only made some rings for god sake. :D


... yeah cele-baby was a trouble maker ...ol' Gilly-la had some fire in his belly ... not so much of a nonce in my book ... ;)

best all, BB

[The Telcontarion]

You think Gil would beat Cel's.

[jammi567]

basically, yeh.

[The Telcontarion]

I think Cel would chop Gil up into small little pieces, roast him and with his own spear eat him like a shish kabob. Uhmmm, yum.

Then he would be king uncontested; gangsta like.

[The Telcontarion]

but seriously though, could you imagine Gil-galad with aeglos fighting Celebrimbor with the rings of power. Not to mention whatever sword he made would be the greatest sword ever made and forget about the armor; I think Gil-galad would fare better against sauron.

[durinsbane2244]

i would choose Gil-galid, supposing that we are meant to pick which one would make a better king...too much readin' for me... ;)

anyway, Celebrimbor couldn't bring himself to destroy his "precious" rings, whilst Gil-galid freely gave his to elrond...strong will and do-gooding... :rolleyes:

[The Telcontarion]

Ah, but remember Cel did give them freely away, to Gil, Cirdin and alatiriel. I do not think he would have hesitated to destroy them if he deemed it neccessary, he certainly was not another Isildur.

I respect your choice as king, alot of mooters like Gil it woud seem. Dont' get me wrong, I thought he lived up well to the house of Finwe.

But he would still get chopped up and eaten like a shish kabaab.

[Gordis]

Ah, but remember Cel did give them freely away, to Gil, Cirdin and alatiriel. I do not think he would have hesitated to destroy them if he deemed it neccessary, he certainly was not another Isildur.


No, Celebrimbor was worse than Isildur and by far.

Isildur was a person that the Elves later loved to blame, readily forgetting their own involvement in the Ring-Project.

But Isildur was a mere Man, having little understanding of the Rings scheme and their powers. He was temporarily blinded by the power of the One, by his own pride and by grief for his father and brother. By the way, I say "temporarily" not at random, as in two years, just before his death, Isildur seriously considered giving the Ring back to the keepers of the Three. He said to his son:
"Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three."

Now look at Cel. Togethar with his buddy Annatar Celebrimbor invented all the Ring project - clearly going against the designs of Eru.

After he discovered the existence of the One and the true identity of his dearest friend Annatar, he had ALL the rings but the One in his possession for 100 years (1600-1697). He could end all the project at once by destroying the 19 rings - saving the Second and the Third Age from a lot of calamities. But he didn't do it.

UT Galadriel and Celeborn: Sauron himself departed from Eregion about the year 1500, after the MÃ*rdain had begun the making of the Rings of Power. Now Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be; and when at length he discovered the existence of the One Ring he revolted against Sauron, and went to Lórinand to take counsel once more with Galadriel. They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, "but they failed to find the strength." Galadriel counselled him that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, and dispersed, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be.

At least he could have hidden ALL the rings as well as he hid the Three. He failed to do even that. The Seven and the Nine remained in Eregion, the latter lying all together in the House of Mirdain - ready for the taking. And he told Sauron to whom the Seven were bestowed.

At last the attackers broke into Eregion with ruin and devastation, and captured the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the MÃ*rdain, where were their smithies and their treasures. Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the MÃ*rdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the MÃ*rdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose.UT.

You see, he didn't value the Seven or the Nine enough to keep them from Sauron, but still he was so besotted with his rings that he failed to destroy any. With that he put Men and Dwarves in peril, but that bothered the High Elf little. Ugh...

[The Telcontarion]

I do not think he was merely "besotted" with the three as he was more reluctant to give them to Sauron who would use them to evil purposes with devastating effect; the three were indeed the rings of power, as was illustrated by Elrond at the ford. The others where of far lesser make, and while they controlled the bearer, they had no power over those without.

Yet, even under torture he did not reveal the location of the three to Sauron, that in itself shows character beyond measure. Alone upon the steps did he contest with his enemy, until overmastered was he.

They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, "but they failed to find the strength."

"They" could not find the strength, not Celebrimbor only. Alatiriel bade him to hide them, not to destroy them. Think about it for a moment, given her history, would she see these things destroyed that could give her such personal power. Was it not to rule a realm of her own, free of the valar was the why behind her leaving valinor; I say she would not and did not take the one to achieve this end, for she was more than elvin was, but for her weakness, she would have coveted the three for what they represented to her and the fulfilment of all her labours.

While your points about Isildur bear some merit, still none can deny he had the greatest chance to destroy the the one, yet faltered at the most critical point. Even Galadriel refused the one, and Mithrindir, do you believe Celebrimbor would have made the same mistake, he who first rejected the one in the beggining, nay good sir/madame, nay. I will also point out that, it was more of strategic reasoning than anything else for wanting to destroy the the three, as keeping them means the risk of their capture.

[Elemmírë]

Nobody would have accepted a member of the House of Fëanor as High King of the Noldor. And frankly, as much as I love that House, I don't blame them.

Would Celebrimbor have been better than Gil-Galad? I don't think so. I think he was clearly vulnerable to the same weakness that took down his grandfather in the end: love for the creations of his own hands. Not to mention, he surely seems to have had all the pride and self-certainty for which his House is known: anyone who would accept the counsel of Sauron would not have what it takes to be High King.

Given the track record of the House of Fëanor, I can't imagine him actually wanting that sort of position. And if he had... well, that sort of desire really would have proven that he wasn't fit for it.

Fëanor was locked forever in Mandos because of his iniquities. Maedhros, Celegorm, Caranthir, and Curufin were likely locked away for ages, too, along with many of their followers.

And what about the twins?

[The Telcontarion]

And what about the twins?

Alas for the the twins, poor them. They only where following the orders of their older brothers I fear.

Say not that no Noldo would accept Celembrimbor as high king, for even Galadriel cared for and respected him greatly and she is more than elvin wise; the same who rejected Feanor from the outset. Even ages before that, in Naugrothond he was held in high esteem.

[Elemmírë]

Alas for the the twins, poor them. They only where following the orders of their older brothers I fear.

Come now! The twins were hardly malleable young children, unable to go against their brothers' wishes if they so desired. If you're going to claim that they were only following orders, you'd have to say the same for Maglor (and with more support as well), Caranthir, and the aforementioned followers of the House of Fëanor.

And, of course, you could also say they were all just following Fëanor's orders... which is true enough, if not a good justification.

Say not that no Noldo would accept Celembrimbor as high king, for even Galadriel cared for and respected him greatly and she is more than elvin wise; the same who rejected Feanor from the outset. Even ages before that, in Naugrothond he was held in high esteem.

First of all, there's a difference between caring for and respecting, and accepting as High King. Just because Galadriel liked him as a person doesn't mean that she would have felt that he would have been a good High King, even if the shadow of the House of Fëanor hadn't laid over him.

Secondly, Galadriel being "elven wise" might have been part of the reason she was able to look past his family history (along with the fact that they were cousins). I doubt that enough of the other remaining Noldor would have been wise enough to do the same.

Where does it say he was held in high esteem in Nargothrond, by the way? I don't really remember him being spoken of as more than an afternote, most of the time. But I suppose I am a bit rusty now...

[The Telcontarion]

Come now! The twins were hardly malleable young children, unable to go against their brothers' wishes if they so desired. If you're going to claim that they were only following orders, you'd have to say the same for Maglor (and with more support as well), Caranthir, and the aforementioned followers of the House of Fëanor.

And, of course, you could also say they were all just following Fëanor's orders... which is true enough, if not a good justification.



First of all, there's a difference between caring for and respecting, and accepting as High King. Just because Galadriel liked him as a person doesn't mean that she would have felt that he would have been a good High King, even if the shadow of the House of Fëanor hadn't laid over him.

Secondly, Galadriel being "elven wise" might have been part of the reason she was able to look past his family history (along with the fact that they were cousins). I doubt that enough of the other remaining Noldor would have been wise enough to do the same.

Where does it say he was held in high esteem in Nargothrond, by the way? I don't really remember him being spoken of as more than an afternote, most of the time. But I suppose I am a bit rusty now...

Perhaps, but...

I think you said it nicely yourself:

Elf: Maedhros and Maglor. I like those two almost equally, though I've always been a bit more obsessive in my love for Maedhros (it must be the name Russandol ). I can't blame any of them for that damn Oath, considering the circumstances and what they all must have felt (terror, shock, betrayal, grief, and their obvious love for Fëanor), but I really respect those two for holding up so well under it for so long. I could write a lot more but I won't...

Maybe, just maybe, someone other than Galadriel saw Celebrimbor for what he truly was, the last high king. Noblest of all elves that yet lived, east of the sea.

Just maybe...

[jammi567]

Gil-galad is High-King of the Eldar in Middle-earth and not Celebrimbor because of the Doom of the Noldor, which may also have affected the outcome of the MÃ*rdain’s manufacture of the Rings of Power:

but if you notice, Gil-galad was also a Noldor, and thus under the curse.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Gil-Galad for high king. He has a cool song about him. :)

[The Telcontarion]

but if you notice, Gil-galad was also a Noldor, and thus under the curse.

You would be right if he was part of the rebellion and chose to follow feanor. Was he not born in middle-earth.

Besides the curse was laid to rest after the last battle - see landroval.

[jammi567]

in that case, it wouldn't matter because then there wouldn't be anything againsy either of them being high king.

[Valtir]

Gil-Galad all the way. The House of Fingolfin acquited itself well despite the Doom of the Noldor, and Gil is no exception.

Celebrimbor, on the other hand, shares much of the flaws of the House of Feanor, and his cozying up to Annatar is but the shining example.

In many ways, Celebrimbor is the patsy of the entire second and third ages, allowing the Rings to be crafted and used to pervert much of Middle Earth.

[jammi567]

he wasn't being a 'patsy'. he was being a reble, just like grandad was.

[Valtir]

he wasn't being a 'patsy'. he was being a reble, just like grandad was.


Melkor tweaked Feanor (and others) enough to cause a massive rift between the Noldor and the Valar. Sauron fooled Celembrimbor into creating the rings, leading to ages of strife and struggle. While it cannot be said Celembrimbor intentionally did evil, his actions certainly led to it. He got played, due to his lust for power and glory.

Gil-Galad on the other hand had no such failings.

[jammi567]

exept for waiting for half the third age to tell the numenorians what the hell they were fighting for. and thus allowing 9 of their lords to become nazgul.

[Arien the Maia]

exept for waiting for half the third age to tell the numenorians what the hell they were fighting for. and thus allowing 9 of their lords to become nazgul.


all the Nazgul weren't Numenorians. only 3 were. Khamul was an Easterling

[jammi567]

thanks for correcting me. the point is, they still allowed three of their allies to be seduced by the person they were fighting against.

[Arien the Maia]

thanks for correcting me. the point is, they still allowed three of their allies to be seduced by the person they were fighting against.

but Sauron was so charming! ;) how could you NOT be seduced?! :D

[Landroval]

thanks for correcting me. the point is, they still allowed three of their allies to be seduced by the person they were fighting against.
The numenoreans rulers gave less and less heed to whatever the elves had to say, eventually oppressing their open supporters. Also, Sauron started attacking the numenoreans after he recruited his stupid lieutenants:
Now he learned that the kings of Numenor had increased hi power and splendour, and he hated them the more; and he feared them, lest they should invade his lands and wrest from him the dominion of the East. But for a long time he did not dare to challenge the Lords of the Sea, and he withdrew from the coasts.

Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Numenorean race. And when the Ulairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Numenoreans upon the shores of the sea.

[jammi567]

yeah, but at the time the rings of powers were handed out, the numenorians were still friends to the elves. i mean, look what they'd just rescued them from. saurons ever increasing power.

[Landroval]

yeah, but at the time the rings of powers were handed out, the numenorians were still friends to the elves. i mean, look what they'd just rescued them from. saurons ever increasing power.
The nazgul appeared during the reign of Tar Atanamir - who gave little if any heed to the warnings of the Messengers (most likely elves too); at this time the division in Numenor also appears.

Sauron kept his plans secret, therefore the handing over of the rings was not known, so no specific warning was possible to start with. On the other hand, the thirst for power that was building in those three numenoreans would have blinded their reason, even if there was some sort of a general warning.

[jammi567]

Yeah, but a general anouncement once they finished the war "we were fighting over some magic rings. if anyone tries to give you a ring, don't accept it". :)

[The Telcontarion]

Yeah, but a general anouncement once they finished the war "we were fighting over some magic rings. if anyone tries to give you a ring, don't accept it". :)

Funny but true :)

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

My vote goes for Gil-Galad.

[Gordis]

Jammy was SOO right!

I vote against both. The Elves don't deserve a High King.

[The Telcontarion]

Celebrimbor is the one true king, period.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Celebrimbor was senior to Erenion Gil Galad under any of the patterns of kingship descent I am familiar with, from primogenitor to the brother to brother to nephew type of the Anlgo Saxons, with Salic Law or non Salic law. It is a heavy question as to why he was not High King after the end of the the War of the Great Jewels and the pardon of the Noldor. I suspect it is tied up with why he led many Noldor into a separate enclave in Eregion after the war. I believe it is the remaining racial and political animosity between the Feanorians and the Sindar most imporantly, but also the with the Laequendi and the other Noldor. The preponderating majority of the population of the remaining and very blended Belriand kingdom, Lindon, were Sindar and Laequnendi, and they would not acept a Feanorian king. The aminosity between the Feanorians and them, and the other Noldor, led to the few remaining Feanorians packing up and leaving for new lands, but the centeo of Eldarian power remained with the vastly larger Beleriandic population of Lindon.
The best consistant rule I could discern with for the "High Kingship" is which prince clearly wielded the greatest military power, and Gil Galad had many times that of Celebrimbor. The 'High Kingship" in Middle Earth had become first and formost a a military power postion, and it was Gil Galad who held that power, as it had previously been Fingolfin, than Fingon, then Turgon.

[ASmileThatExplodes]

I vote for Gil-Galad.. I sympathise more with him than with Celebrimbor. But maybe that has to do with the fact that I absolutely don't like the House of Fëanor and my big love for the Valar. :')