Why Galadriel left Valinor?

[Olmer]

According to Tolkien, Galadriel had her own plans for Endor long before the revolt of Feanor. And, seems, her plans were very well accepted and approved by Valar.
"She did indeed wish to depart from Valinor and to go into the wide world of Middle-earth for the exercise of her talents; for "being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar," and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman. This desire of Galadriel's was, it seems, known to Manwё, and he had not forbidden her; but nor had she been given formal leave to depart. " ("UT")
So, the desire "to rule there a realm at her own will" (The Sillmarillion) was only her private reason.
What reason she gave to Valar to be singled out to leave Valinor with their blessing?
Your thoughts?

[Landroval]

What reason she gave to Valar to be singled out to leave Valinor with their blessing?
This very quote sort of rules out the blessing of the valar (the valar didn't forbid the noldor to leave either, all were free); in the source you cited, it is further said that after the Alqualonde slaying, Manwe's leave "would undoubtedly have been withheld in that hour", but she left anyway.

[durinsbane2244]

this should be in the sil thread...but, alas and alack, i am no mod... :(

[Radagast The Brown]

The Valar indeed hasn't formally given Galadriel permission to leave.. but it seems they would've, if not for the darkening of Valinor. ("...would undoubtedly have been withheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself.") So the question still stands IMO - just replace the "gave" by "would give". :p

[Gordis]

Wasn't there a later version where Galadriel and her "Teleporno" :rolleyes: , now a Telerin Elf, sailed to ME separately from the Feanoreans, and, undoubtedly WITH the blessing of the Valar?

Tolkien so wished to make Galadriel a saint!

[CAB]

Interesting question Olmer.

I would guess that the answer is essentially in the quote you gave.
for "being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar," and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman.
The pursuit of knowledge is a noble thing and would probably have been a suitable reason/excuse to give the Valar.


Tolkien so wished to make Galadriel a saint!
Seems so. I prefer the earlier version. More realistic and fitting with the character seen in the Lord of the Rings.

[Olmer]

I would guess that the answer is essentially in the quote you gave.
The pursuit of knowledge is a noble thing and would probably have been a suitable reason/excuse to give the Valar.

Agree, pursuit of knowledge is a noble thing, but I don't think that she was looking for knowledge of something new or unknown. Granted, that she was travelling a lot, but it was mostly in areas inhabited by Elves. Exept an agreement with Dwarves to travel through Moria, she was not noticed in making any contacts with other races, where she really could acquire some new knowledge.
Wasn't there a later version where Galadriel and her "Teleporno" , now a Telerin Elf, sailed to ME separately from the Feanoreans, and, undoubtedly WITH the blessing of the Valar?
By the latest version, written literally in the last month of Tolkien's life, Galadriel and her "porno"-prince were hanging out in Alqualonde The assault of Feanor has happened when they were about to ask for Valar's permission to leave Valinor (This Valinor's policy nagginly reminded me a certain country behind the Iron Curtain, where to leave the country citizens had to obtain from an authorities a special Visa , if you would do othervise and leave without permission, you would be named as a traitor of the Motherland and banned from entering it :( ) .
She "fought heroically"against Noldor and then she sailed away without a permission ,because was so horrified by cruelty of Feanor,( and probably, of her own, after all she TOOK PART in kinslaying, and by this fact, with all his hard trying Tolkien did not manage to make her "whiter and fluffier" :) ).

[jammi567]

i think it's also the fact that she's curious, and if you heard of a new land from half-uncle Feanor, wouldn't you want to go and visit, regardless of whether the Valar want you to go or not. after all, you've got a husband who can get you a boat easily...

[Olmer]

...the valar didn't forbid the noldor to leave either, all were free)
If Noldor were free to leave, why you have to obtain a "formal leave to depart" (UT) and why they were dreaming about the UNGUARDED lands? :rolleyes: ;)
i think it's also the fact that she's curious, and if you heard of a new land from half-uncle Feanor, wouldn't you want to go and visit, regardless of whether the Valar want you to go or not.
The interesting thing is that she was not leaving alone."The words of Feanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled" not only her heart. Greater elves , as Finrod and Fingolfin, also followed Feanor, also curious and longing " to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at their own will" (The Silmarillion) , but nevertheless only her plans has been known to Manwё himself, and approved by him.
She is one of the brightest elves, capable to read everybody's mind, even Sauron's, builds up a little unique kingdom in close proximity of Sauron's realm and stays over there millenium after millenium, even refusing the pardon of Valar.
What was holding her? Definately, not her provincial husband, whom she dumped as soon, as she got the chance. :evil:
Why her mellorns all of the sudden have died when she left Lorien?
According to the described size, can you imagine the root system of such trees, considering that the roots of the trees resembles an underwater part of iceberg, going deep and wide? And all of them died at once?
What was going on in Golden Woods? :rolleyes: :confused:

[Landroval]

If Noldor were free to leave, why you have to obtain a "formal leave to depart" (UT) and why they were dreaming about the UNGUARDED lands?
It was Melkor's lies that clouded their minds.
No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart.
Formal leave is just that: formal. The whole of Ea's kingdom was under the valar's rule, so a simple gesture of courtesy can't hurt, esspecially if this might help in the future.
The wide unguarded lands may simply mean virgin teritory, i.e. that she wanted to become a pioneer.

[jammi567]

interesting... as a noun, pioneer means a) a person or group that is the first to do something or that is a forerunner in creating or developing something new.
b) somebody who goes into previously uncharted or unclaimed territory with the aim of exploring it and possibly colonizing it or settling there
c) army* a foot soldier whose duties include going ahead of the main company to pave the way for them by building roads, ditches, bridges, and other constructions
d) ecology* the first species of plant or animal life to begin living in a previously unoccupied site, for example a moss beginning to grow on otherwise bare rock

as a verb, it means a) transitive verb to experiment with or develop something new
b) transitive verb to go into previously uncharted or unclaimed territory with the aim of exploring it and possibly colonizing it or settling there
c) intransitive verb to act as a pioneer in a specified field.

Can any of these apply to Galadriel?

[Landroval]

Well, she wanted lands of her own, to rule by herself; there are only so many ways to get them: for others already living there to surrender to her; she conquers already existing realms; she rules new territories. Though it is a matter of speculation, I don't think she set out to conquer lands by force, nor do I picture her as expecting others to bow at her feet; therefore I presume what she had in mind was new lands.
What was holding her?
From letter #320, I think we can conclude it was pride:
I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary, but actually Galadriel was a penitent: in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar (the angelic guardians). At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return. She was pardoned because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself.
However, in The road goes ever on, there appears the idea of the ban:
After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so.
According to Chris's comments, the idea of the ban appeared after the writing of LotR.
And all of them died at once?
I would say it was Galadriel's power that kept them in Middle-Earth alive; from the Description of the Island of Numenor, UT:
some (of the mallorns) were given as gift by Tar-Aldarion, the sixth King of Numenor, to King Gil-galad of Lindon. They did not take root in that land; but Gil-galad gave some to his kinswoman Galadriel, and under her power they grew and flourished in the guarded land of Lothlorien beside the River Anduin, until the High Elves at last left Middle-earth; but they did not reach the height or girth of the great groves of Numenor.
And in Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion, it is stated:
Yet many voices were heard among the Elves foreboding that, if Sauron should come again, then either he would find the Ruling Ring that was lost, or at the best his enemies would discover it and destroy it; but in either chance the powers of the Three must then fail and all things maintained by them must fade, and so the Elves should pass into the twilight and the Dominion of Men begin.

[jammi567]

I would say it was Galadriel's power that kept them in Middle-Earth alive
what, from her ring, or her general elvishness(sp)?

[Landroval]

Most likely her ring, my son ;).

[jammi567]

why, my mum/dad? :D

[Landroval]

Well, she strikes me as someone more gifted/intersted in martial matters, might, high-level politics; and of the rings themselves, it is stated in letter #131:
The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive.
...
The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

[Alcuin]

To follow upon one Landroval’s earlier posts:

The reasons why Galadriel left Valinor for Middle-earth changed in the telling. In the early stories, she left in the fury which drove the rest of the Noldor; later, she left for lands to rule on her own; and finally, she left with her lover Teleporno, later called Celeborn, having originally received permission from the Valar which was rescinded during the rebellion of the Fëanor and the Noldor.

At the beginning of the chapter “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn” in Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien wrote,

There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies ‘embedded in the traditions’; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.


In the Introduction to Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien wrote,

…a history of Galadriel can only be a history of my father’s changing conceptions, and the ‘unfinished’ nature of the tale is not in this case that of a particular piece of writing. …

The history of Galadriel and Celeborn is so interwoven with other legends and histories … that it cannot be treated in isolation… ‘Those were the dark years … in Middle-earth…’ But even that little surviving from the ‘dark years’ changed as my father’s contemplation of it grew and changed; and I have made no attempt to smooth away the inconsistency, but rather exhibited and drawn attention to it.

Divergent versions need not indeed always be treated solely as a question of settling the priority of composition; and my father as ‘author’ or ‘inventor’ cannot always in these matters be distinguished from the ‘recorder’ if ancient traditions handed down in diverse forms among different people through long ages… ‘Of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who are now gone.’


I do not doubt that some of the inconsistency is deliberate, as Christopher Tolkien suggests. What strikes me here is the statement that Tolkien “as ‘author’ or ‘inventor’ cannot always … be distinguished from the ‘recorder’ if ancient traditions … among different people through long ages.”

I cannot sat what concept was in Tolkien’s mind when he wrote Lord of the Rings, but clearly not that Galadriel and Teleporno/Celeborn had permission to leave Valinor until Fëanor rebelled: this was a concept formed late in Tolkien’s life, according to his son Christopher. Nor was Amroth the son of Galadriel and Celeborn at that time; this also emerged later. That Galadriel was a “leading figure” (my phrase, not Tolkien’s)in the rebellion of the Noldor, however, was an idea that was apparently in Tolkien’s mind at the time he wrote Lord of the Rings, and was still his view in 1967, when he wrote a draft to ‘Mr Rang’ in August 1967, Letter 297, near the end:

The attempt of Eärendil to cross Ëar was against the Ban of the Valar prohibiting all Men to set foot on Aman, and against the later special ban prohibiting the Exiled Elves , followers of the rebellious Fëanor, from return: referred to in Galadriel’s lament. … The Exiles were allowed to return – save for a few chief actors in the rebellion of whom at the time of the L.R. only Galadriel remained.

And in a footnote to the letter at that point, Tolkien remarks that Galadriel believed her ban on returning to Valinor was permanent.

My own opinion is that as Tolkien got older, he tried to tidy up the messy history of Galadriel, much perhaps as Galadriel would have liked to have tidied it were she able. That she left Valinor with the general rebellion of the Noldor was clearly his conception of matters until the final years of his life, and was undoubtedly his notion when he wrote the Lord of the Rings; as was the concept that Celeborn was a Sindarin elf of Middle-earth, whether always east of the mountains (which may have been Tolkien’s intention when he wrote the “Lothlórien” chapter of Fellowship of the Ring) or a kinsman of Thingol’s dwelling in Doriath.

In any event, until the late-life drafts of Galadriel and Teleporno sneaking out of Valinor in the general confusion following the flight of the Noldor, Tolkien clearly had in mind that Galadriel was not only the greatest of both the Noldor and the Eldar still alive in Middle-earth, she was also an Exile and banned from returning to the West not because of her participation in the rebellion of the Noldor, but because of her role as a leader of the rebellion.

[CAB]

Olmer, after reading your last post, I thought that I knew what you were hinting at. Now, I am not so sure. Anyway, I’ll post what I came up with. Hopefully you will tell me how close I came.

You have suggested before that Galadriel was the chief “Western” person in Middle Earth in the Third Age (being the one who called the White Council). So, she was going to Middle Earth as Manwe’s representative. Perhaps she was to replace Melian (with whom she shares many similarities) in this role, since Melian had allowed Thingol to possess the greater authority.

You mentioned Galadriel’s marriage to Celeborn. Maybe this was done only to give her authority over the Telerian Elves who had never heeded the Valar’s call, and so, wouldn’t be expected to follow their representative (like Melian’s marriage, maybe).

And the Mallorn trees. Maybe they were “nurtured” by the Valar/Yavanna to make the statement, to those who could read it, that: here is a piece of Valinor in Middle Earth, and it’s leader represents the Valar. When Galadriel left, the trees were no longer needed, and their angelic aid was removed.

Well, that didn’t cover the fact that other great Noldor also came to Middle Earth, but that’s the best I could come up with for now. How did I do Olmer?

[Olmer]

If Noldor were free to leave, why you have to obtain a "formal leave to depart" (UT) and why they were dreaming about the UNGUARDED lands? It was Melkor's lies that clouded their minds.
Maybe Melkor was not lying, but saying as it is? "Something is rotten in the State of Denmark" (C) Shakespeare), if you have to ask a permission to leave a gilded cage.
What, then, was Valar's real reason to invite Quendi to the institution of the close up type? And explanation that they "desired their fellowship" is quite lame. The same way I would put dog on the chain and say that I'm restricting its movements, because I'm desiring a friendship. :evil:
What kind of "paradise" has been Valinor, if such horrid creatures, as Ungoliant, was dwelling on the so called blessed land?
... to go into previously uncharted or unclaimed territory with the aim of exploring it and possibly colonizing it or settling there. Can any of these apply to Galadriel?
The thing is that all this "uncharted" and "unclamed" territories had been occupied by the Elves, Calaquendi, Moriquendi, Teleri, who choose to stay in M.E, so she came to conqueer somebody's land to get as of her own.
..but Gil-galad gave some to his kinswoman Galadriel, and under her power they grew and flourished in the guarded land of Lothlorien beside the River Anduin... Seems Galadriel obtained from Valar a special skills, which other Noldor have been locking out. Why such preference?
Gil-Galad in his Lindon did not manage to grow even single mellorn, even , as I think, he did not have difficulies to obtain the tree's seeds from Tol Eressea.
My own opinion is that as Tolkien got older, he tried to tidy up the messy history of Galadriel, much perhaps as Galadriel would have liked to have tidied it were she able. That she left Valinor with the general rebellion of the Noldor was clearly his conception of matters until the final years of his life, and was undoubtedly his notion when he wrote the Lord of the Rings; as was the concept that Celeborn was a Sindarin elf of Middle-earth, whether always east of the mountains (which may have been Tolkien’s intention when he wrote the “Lothlórien” chapter of Fellowship of the Ring) or a kinsman of Thingol’s dwelling in Doriath.
I like your "in depth" explanation of Tolkien's attempts to make a sense in the questionable past of Galadriel. Very informative post.
I think, that while creating the history of Middle-earth, history, based on on the world's long existing information, borrowed by Tolkien from catholic's religion concepts, traditions of english literature and epos of North Europe, he has been , in the effect , co-writing with the Creator. His work is similar to the music of Ainur, which was just an expansion of the theme, given by Eru.
Later, when Tolkien -the writer had been substituted by Tolkien-the analyzer , to his surprise he discovered that, if you wil have ”largely impersonal view “ on his creations, you can give a different interpretations of some events, and sometimes this interpretations aren't looking the way he intended to. This why he did a “colossal” work of rewriting, but since originally it was not his sole invention , inevitably another inconsistencies would poke out after his corrections.
I agree with your opinion that for canon should be accepted the basic versions, and not the one which was revised, but also it couldn't be totally discarded, because of the additional information.
So, she was going to Middle Earth as Manwe’s representative. Perhaps she was to replace Melian (with whom she shares many similarities) in this role, since Melian had allowed Thingol to possess the greater authority.
Very interesting theory CAB! I did not consider Galadriel as Valar's spokesperson, but I see the possibilities of such hypothesis :)

[jammi567]

The thing is that all this "uncharted" and "unclamed" territories had been occupied by the Elves, Calaquendi, Moriquendi, Teleri, who choose to stay in M.E, so she came to conqueer somebody's land to get as of her own.
i was only noting the meanings from the dictonary, anyway, she wasn't told about how the outer lands were filled with other elves, only that it was empty, and that it was going to be filled with weak men.

[Landroval]

Maybe Melkor was not lying, but saying as it is? "Something is rotten in the State of Denmark" (C) Shakespeare), if you have to ask a permission to leave a gilded cage.
Who said there is such an obligation??
The Valar had brought the Eldar to their land freely, to dwell or to depart; and though they might judge departure to be folly, they might not restrain them from it.

[Galin]

Landroval: I would say it was Galadriel's power that kept them in Middle-Earth alive

Jammi567: what, from her ring, or her general elvishness(sp)?

Landroval: Most likely her ring, my son

This brings up the issue of chronology with respect to the mallorn-trees growing in Lórien under Galadriel's power. When did she introduce the mallorns there? keeping in mind that if her ring had anything to do with establishing them, Galadriel cannot use Nenya until the One is taken from Sauron.

I had a bit of trouble here, using the extant text anyway. In relatively late notes published in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien gives Galadriel a visit to Lórien at about the time the Shadow arises in Dol Guldur -- no problem yet perhaps, because even though we are around a thousand years into the Third Age, there's still enough time for the growth of mallorns before Frodo arrives much later. And actually, in a relatively late note published in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn chapter (Unfinished Tales), it is said: '... for Lórien after the end of the first millennium of the Third Age became a land of uneasy vigilance, and Amroth must have dwelt in growing disquiet ever since Dol Guldur was established in Mirkwood.' And that Amroth's flet on the hill of Cerin Amroth: '... was principally designed to watch Dol Guldur across the Anduin.'

So maybe Galadriel is visiting -- can now use her Ring -- and establishes mallorn-trees in Lórien at this general time.

But yet Tolkien (had possibly forgotten that he) had published Haldir's: '... and here is the mound of Amroth, where in happier days his high house was built.' My guess at 'happier days' for Amroth would have been the years before the Shadow arose. Granted it is only happy -er but still, according to the text titled Amroth and Nimrodel for instance: 'His land had peace for many years after the defeat of Sauron. Though Sindarin in descent he lived after the manner of the Silvan Elves and housed in tall trees of a great green mound, ever after called Cerin Amroth. This he did because of his love for Nimrodel. For long years he had loved her...'

This is arguably better, I think (to some degree!), with respect to agreeing with The Lord of the Rings.

But if I adjust my chronology along these lines, I think I will have trouble with Galadriel using Nenya to aid with the introduction of the mallorns in Lórien, because again, the suggestion is that her first visit there in the Third Age was roughly about the time of the growing shadow of Mirkwood (TA 1050 a shadow falls on Greenwood) and the matter of Dol Guldur (in c. TA 1100 the Wise discovered that an evil power had made a stronghold in Dol Guldur).

Of course I'm a bit constrained here in a way that Tolkien is not (he can alter some of Galadriel's history, for instance), but I would hold even JRRT to work around what he had already put into print. Plus, one wonders a bit why Galadriel would not have grown the mallorns in Lindon or Eregion, and yet in Lórien before she came to rule there.

Thoughts?

[Noble Elf Lord]

Suppose the Ring was needed to maintain, not to originally grow the mellyrn?

And the dog on the chain is too rough a metaphor; I'd say the dog is allowed free movement within a front/backyard. So it won't be killed by cars and such...:(;)

[Galin]

If they grew under her power (noting Sam's mallorn in any case) then it seems to me that that would be enough. Nenya maintained a lot of things in a sense, but that was preservation power.

And if the trees were maintained in some way by Nenya, Galadriel did not make Lórien her 'permanent' home until roughly two thousand years had passed in the Third Age.

Granted her visit there around TA 1000 could have been quite long, but...

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

Galadriel wanted to rule her own lands. She thought she could find that in Beleriand.

[Morwen]

I believe that Galadriel is very proud, and did not wish to meet the confines of the Valar, such as they were. When the flight of the Noldor came about, Galadriel was still young (in elven terms, I mean) and had a rebellious spirit that matched her brothers.