the fellowship

[gwilwileth]

Why arn't there any people from Rohan in the fellowship?

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Hi gwil welcome to Entmoot. :)

I thought the same thing when I fist read the book. How can you have every free race represented in the Fellowship but leave Rohan out? Then I realized that the Counsel of Elrond was more of a spontaneous meeting then a planed one. That and no one was sure where Rohan's alligence lied and how much of Rohan was under Saruman's influence, despite Boromir telling everyone they were indeed on their side. I feel they got shafted for sure. I mean, there wasn't even an attempt to contact them until Gandalf came back.

[Earniel]

Many factions were absent as well from the council. None of the people of Rhovanion were present for example, only the Dwarves. I also doubt any Elf from Lorien attended (although it would probably have been pointless, communication through Galadriel's ring was likely to be more efficient).

But you're right about the suspicions against Rohan, I had almost forgotten about that. Wasn't Rohan also supected to be giving horses to Mordor? (which later were revealed to be stolen, not sold)

[Valandil]

Every free race WAS represented (other than the forgotten Ents - who had never been embroiled in these things - they were never even given any Rings of Power! ;) ) - after all, those in Rohan were not a separate Race - they were Men, so they were represented in the fellowship by Aragorn and Boromir.

Remember that Tolkien uses "race" - not to distinguish between physical characterstics of different Men - but really closer to how we might use "species" - except limited to those who you might say were of a "higher order" - so he wouldn't use "race" to distinguish betwen foxes and bears and owls - but he would to talk about Men, and Elves and Dwarves.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Oh I have no disagrement that every race was represented. I'm just saying the Ring also effected the people of Rohan and yet no one seemed to care what their thoughts were. They had Saruman kicking down their door to not only search for the Ring but to just wipe them out entirely and it was shrugged off until Gandalf came back and said they had to go and help Rohan. Gondor would not have survived without the assistance of Rohan.

[Jon S.]

The answer seems obvious to me, yuu might as well castigage Churchill, Roosevelt, and Stalin for not inviting the Prime Ministers of Canada and Australia to their historic meeting. The Council and the Fellowship had men participating from both the North and South of Middle Earth. Elrond chose correctly based on all relevant factors.

[durinsbane2244]

The answer seems obvious to me, yuu might as well castigage Churchill, Roosevelt, and Stalin for not inviting the Prime Ministers of Canada and Australia to their historic meeting. The Council and the Fellowship had men participating from both the North and South of Middle Earth. Elrond chose correctly based on all relevant factors.

hehe :D clever jon, but watch out for the canadians on board... :D :p

[Landroval]

Elrond chose correctly based on all relevant factors.
Hm, Elrond states that he didn't invite those present; or perhaps I am misreading you.

[Jon S.]

Hm, Elrond states that he didn't invite those present; or perhaps I am misreading you.

"And I will choose you companions to go with you, as far as they will or fortune allows." Elrond, The Ring Goes South.

[Sam]

I realized that the Counsel of Elrond was more of a spontaneous meeting then a planed one.
i definently agree with what you are saying. All the "people" were there for their own reasons. A second thing that you must note is that Boromir didn't even know what Rivendell was, until he set out for it. You can deffinently see that the race of men and the race of elves were slowly, but surely being drawn further and further apart. perhaps Rohan had completely forgotten (or never known) about Rivendell or Elrond.

[gwilwileth]

it is pretty interesting though. Why are there 2 men from gondor and not one from Rohan, or for that matter why not from such places as Haradwaith which must have been envaded and effected by the ring being so close to mordor, and all. All of middle earth was effected; why bring one of every race ( well almost because of the ents) but not one from every large region?

[Earniel]

You can deffinently see that the race of men and the race of elves were slowly, but surely being drawn further and further apart. perhaps Rohan had completely forgotten (or never known) about Rivendell or Elrond.
I think so. Lorien was the only Elven realm near Rohan, and they considered it a dangerous, magical place gouverned by a witch. What would they have thought of Rivendell then, had they known it? And Rohan, in case of trouble, would more likely call on Gondor than on some far-away Elven realm with which they had no connection whatsoever. Wormtongue would no doubt have prevented such happenings anyway, to avoid any outside interference in his plans.

All in all, I think it would have been totally reckless to invite anyone to the Council of whom the allegiance wasn't clear. If Rohan had been invited and turned out to be dealing with Mordor, the whole quest just went down the drain. You might as well send the minutes of the meeting to the Barad-dur. That goes especially if you ended up inviting people from Dunland, Rhun and Harad, who probably not only never heard of you and most likely considered you an enemy.

In a way I think you can say larger forces were at work in bringing everyone to Rivendell around the same time. Boromir came because of his dream. The Dwarves came because they had received disturbing news from an emissary of Mordor and the Hobbits came because little elsewhere was safe enough. Inviting them all would have been quite an undertaking and probably required months of planning, both on the side of the host and the invited.

[GreyMouser]

Because they're a bunch of Johnny-come-lately horse gallopers who aren't related to anybody who is anybody.

"Rohirrim? And what part did your ancestors play in the First Age?"

(Of course that could apply to hobbits, too)

[Sam]

Wormtongue would no doubt have prevented such happenings anyway, to avoid any outside interference in his plans.
This is a very good point, having someone from Rohan in the fellowship could and would have spelled defeat. Any one loyal Theoden would actually be loyal to wormtounge who was under the command of Saruman who was under the influence of Sauron.

[gwilwileth]

Agreed, but i still wonder doesn't Elrond have seeing in the future powers? Wouldnt he have seen the ring being discovered before it had. Then wouldn't he have had time to plan, knowing the hobbits with the ring were going to rivendell?

[Sam]

true, but if had seen into the future, Sauron would never have crafted the ring, because he would've seen it and warned the elves of Eregion. Perhaps Elrond's abilities can be, in the words of Yoda, "clouded by the dark side."

[Landroval]

Perhaps Elrond's abilities can be, in the words of Yoda, "clouded by the dark side."
I agree:
- Then I cannot help you much, not even with counsel, said Elrond. I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task is to be achieved I do not know. The Shadow has crept now to the feet of the Mountains, and draws nigh even to the borders of Greyflood; and under the Shadow all is dark to me.

[Sam]

oooo...nice quote! :D

[gwilwileth]

I think it is better that his visions were clouded. He could have fixed every thing before it happened, and it would have made pretty boring and quite a short book.
ex:
1. Elrond goes to Bilbo BEFORE he gives the ring to frodo
2. Elrond forsees the path where the orcs are and takes a different path
3. Elrond forsees when the eye of saron will look at him and hides.
4. Elrond throughs the ring in the fire
5. Elrond forsees mordor collapsing and runs
6. Elrond returns to rivendell
7. The End

[Sam]

ha! Yes most boring it would have been.

[gwilwileth]

very funny though

[Green Rose]

Wasn't it cuz Rohan was controlled by Mr. Evil Sauruman Theoden? Maybe thats why and they no longer were free. Aha!

[Olmer]

Every free race WAS represented (other than the forgotten Ents - who had never been embroiled in these things - they were never even given any Rings of Power! ;) ) - after all, those in Rohan were not a separate Race - they were Men, so they were represented in the fellowship by Aragorn and Boromir.
That's almost right, exept, some races were left out, woses for example. But,any way, it was not Elrond's decision. The matter of the Ruling Ring planned to be discussed in the close circle of the Informed. Elrond did not invite everybody and the whole business of coming of this "individuals of different races" at the same time is too coincidential.
In my opinion the Dwarves and Gondoreans were planned to be left overboard. But Sauron has interfered. Each party has got an information than at the certain time in Rivendell will take place of some important event, which could be a great concern for theirs people well being. And the Dwarves and Boromir knew for sure that it's the matter of some dealing with magic power, and rushed to the place, making more or less plausible excuses for coming there.
Oh, yeh, they showed up in Imladris quite unexpectedly, unforeseen, and uninvited, and the foresighted Elrond, to save his face, had nothing else, but to come up with a superficial excuse, that all of them had been gathered by the providence of Iluvatar."That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so." (FOTR, Book II, Chapt.II)

But, beats me, I don't see what the heck Iluvatar would want to send a representative from the different races, while it could be done by only someone, who could covertly penetrate into Mordor's heartland?
The representatives would be needed when you are going to have a parley (with Sauron?? :eek: ), or when you are sending on a joint mission the observants from allies to watch that other party won't cheat on you.
The second one sounds more plausible. ;)

[Earniel]

In my opinion the Dwarves and Gondoreans were planned to be left overboard.
I don't see why the Dwarves would be left out. The Dwarves were welcome in Rivendell before, Thorin and company had been guests during 'the Hobbit'. The Elves of Mirkwood may still not have liked Dwarves, but the council was held in Rivendell, not Mirkwood. And it was not presided by Thranduil.

And why leave out the Gondoreans? If Aragorn was to go there eventually, he'd have much better hopes of getting there when acompanying Boromir. And if they were to travel to Mordor, the involvement of Gondor could have been vital.

No, leaving them out makes me no sense to me, even if the decision wasn't even Elrond's in the end.

And Woses could be counted among Men, just like Hobbits.

But, beats me, I don't see what the heck Iluvatar would want to send a representative from the different races, while it could be done by only someone, who could covertly penetrate into Mordor's heartland?
The representatives would be needed when you are going to have a parley (with Sauron?? :eek: ), or when you are sending on a joint mission the observants from allies to watch that other party won't cheat on you.
The second one sounds more plausible. ;)
Perhaps so that everyone had a hand in the ultimate defeat of Sauron? A great way to strenghten ties IMO, fighting a common enemy. Even the Woses, while not present at the council, certainly had an important part to play.

[Jon S.]

When your only theory is a hammer, every event is a nail.

[Olmer]

I don't see why the Dwarves would be left out. The Dwarves were welcome in Rivendell before, Thorin and company had been guests during 'the Hobbit'. The Elves of Mirkwood may still not have liked Dwarves, but the council was held in Rivendell, not Mirkwood.
Because it has never been too much friendship between Elves and Dwarves.
There was at that time no enmity between Elves and Dwarves, but nonetheless no great love. For thought the Dwarfs did not serve Morgoth, yet they were in some things more like to his people than to the Elves. (“The Lost Road”, chapt.10, Of Men and Dwarfs.)
And ages later things did not change.We know that of other Dwarve's houses(7) only dwarves of Durin were unfriendly with Sauron, and even they did not show to door to Sauron's messengers.
The Elves knew that the Dwarves couldn't be a completely reliable allies."[The goblins] did not hate dwarves especially, no more than they hated everybody and everything, and particularly the orderly and prosperous; in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with them. (The Hobbit)
On another hand, the Dwarves were not very trusty either and Dain sends in Rivendell as an observer, not anybody else, but specifically Gloin, who feels, to say the least, an antipathy to elves. ”You were less tender to me!”said Gloin with a flash if his eyes, as old memories were stirred of his imprisonment in the deep places of the Elven-king’s halls” (“LOTR”, Book II, Chapter II).

And why leave out the Gondoreans? If Aragorn was to go there eventually, he'd have much better hopes of getting there when acompanying Boromir. And if they were to travel to Mordor, the involvement of Gondor could have been vital.
They did not need Gondor's involvement because Aragorn [Thorongil] "and Mithrandir designed to supplant the present ruler [Denethor] (Appendix A).And Gandalf outdid himself in the efforts to keep the conspiracy of the coup d'etat away from the smart and suspicious Denetor. Sadly, Boromir's fate to get killed was predestined when he has managed to arrive in Imladris at the time of Council of Elrond.

And Woses could be counted among Men, just like Hobbits.
No, the Hobbits were not Man, and Woses were not Hobbits.
Close, I even think that hobbits have some strains of woses, but as a similar race they are not.
Perhaps so that everyone had a hand in the ultimate defeat of Sauron? A great way to strenghten ties IMO, fighting a common enemy. The plan was not to send a whole group to Mordor.They all allowed to drop out of the quest any time they want, exept the hobbits. So, we are not talking here about "fighting a common enemy",we are talking abut the group of representatives of different races, some of them even haiting each other, but nevertheless continued to stay in the Fellowship .
Why? To make sure that the others won't get theirs hands on the Ring .
When your only theory is a hammer, every event is a nail. How about gluing together broken and scattered fragments? :)

[Landroval]

There was at that time no enmity between Elves and Dwarves, but nonetheless no great love. For thought the Dwarfs did not serve Morgoth, yet they were in some things more like to his people than to the Elves.
Then again, even Men would fit that description:
Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwe, who knows most of the mind of Iluvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.
This lack of resemblance between Elves and all other races is due to the fact that they were conceived by Tolkien to represent the supreme part of Men's being:
and if I were pressed to rationalize, I should say that they represent really Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer life, and nobility
And Gandalf outdid himself in the efforts to keep the conspiracy of the coup d'etat away from the smart and suspicious Denetor.
I know of no clue regarding any coup d'etat against the mad and corrupted Denethor (let us remember that Aragorn is a rightful heir of the throne after all).
the Hobbits were not Man
I disagree; Tolkien states in letter #319 that hobbits are a "diminutive branch of the human race"; he also states in Later Writings that "with Men of normal stature [i.e. not Numenoreans] they recognized their close kinship".
They all allowed to drop out of the quest any time they want, exept the hobbits
This subject has been beaten to death previously; even Frodo was allowed to go only as far as his will allows him to.

[Earniel]

On another hand, the Dwarves were not very trusty either and Dain sends in Rivendell as an observer, not anybody else, but specifically Gloin, who feels, to say the least, an antipathy to elves. ”You were less tender to me!”said Gloin with a flash if his eyes, as old memories were stirred of his imprisonment in the deep places of the Elven-king’s halls” (“LOTR”, Book II, Chapter II).
He said so against Legolas, and was referring to the Elves of Mirkwood. However I don't think there is anything that proves that the Elves of Rivendell shared the same antipathy towards Dwarves. Ergo no reason to keep the Dwarves out of Rivendell.

Dáin sent someone to get some advice how to handle that shady visitor they had and to warn Bilbo he was sought. There is no evidence of any other motive.

Besides, even if in the unlikely event of the Dwarves being unwelcome in Rivendell, and if Elrond had been in control of the invitations, I'm sure Gandalf -who knew the worth of the Dwarves of Erebor first hand- would have been able to convince Elrond of the need to have Dwarves present. No, IMO, the Dwarves would have been there either way.

They did not need Gondor's involvement because Aragorn [Thorongil] "and Mithrandir designed to supplant the present ruler [Denethor] (Appendix A).And Gandalf outdid himself in the efforts to keep the conspiracy of the coup d'etat away from the smart and suspicious Denetor. Sadly, Boromir's fate to get killed was predestined when he has managed to arrive in Imladris at the time of Council of Elrond.
I disagree. For one, Boromir arrived in Rivendell because of his dream telling him to go there, Sauron had no hand in it. Boromir's arrival thus couldn't have thrown a wrench in any Gandalf or Aragorn's works.

Since the route wasn't planned from the beginning, having a Gondorean in the council would certainly have been useful. Both in the planning stage and on the way later. It was after all quite a few years since Thorongil was in Gondor, he couldn't have known the exact situation there.

Frankly, I would also find it silly if they couldn't even plan a trip to Mordor in detail but they could plan a coup d'état in Gondor. I think in the end Denethor, like you actually (;)) saw a lot of conspiracies which weren't even there.

The plan was not to send a whole group to Mordor.They all allowed to drop out of the quest any time they want, exept the hobbits. So, we are not talking here about "fighting a common enemy",we are talking abut the group of representatives of different races, some of them even hating each other, but nevertheless continued to stay in the Fellowship .
Why? To make sure that the others won't get theirs hands on the Ring .
They were allowed to drop out any time, they were also allowed to stick around till the end. Their choice. But even if they just went a small way, they would have made a contribution to the cause in keeping Frodo safe for a while. They were all armed, they all had a bit of fighting before the end. I'd say fighting a common enemy is close enough. It wasn't like they were a committee on who could and could not wear the Ring for five minutes and who's turn it was next. Besides, if they so desperatedly and paranoid wanted to keep the Ring out of eachother hands they would never have let Frodo sneak off.

[Olmer]

Then again, even Men would fit that description:
True. This is why other represantatives of Men race have never been invited , even if it had been enough time for invitation and arrival, say, a delegation from Rohan.
This lack of resemblance between Elves and all other races is due to the fact that they were conceived by Tolkien to represent the supreme part of Men's being:
Yh-yh...In the best traditions of German's Nazi:the supermen, the chosen one, possessing all characteristics of Nordic race and undying devotion to the Reich, I mean, Valinor :cool:, and untermen, which were destined to be the pawns of evil forces and, in spite of the presence of intelligence, they retained to be the races doomed for suppression and eradication.
I know of no clue regarding any coup d'etat against the mad and corrupted Denethor (let us remember that Aragorn is a rightful heir of the throne after all).
This is highly debatable.And we have a few threads discussing it. Just to present you with my POW I'am putting my reply from the thread “In Olmer's Honor: Take Tolkien at Face Value - or is there 'Something Else'
Denethor, the man of true Numenorian blood, proud and wise, took his enormous responsibilities to rule the diminishing in power kingdom of Gondor deadly earnest, and as a man of strong will and high honor he demanded the same dedication to the cause from everyone, including his sons. .
Up to the day when Faramir was brought to the White Tower he was at command of his army, sane and sound.
Even Sauron couldn't overcome his strength of mind, only a despair of loosing his last son weakened his iron will and allowed the Dark Lord to break his mind
Denethor was not jealous.He was smart and perseptive, can put two and two together to find real meaning behind seemingly innocent events. He did not trust elves, seeing them as self-serving and ignorant to other ME's inhabitants need and suspected (quite rightfully) them and Gandalf to be involved in some shady intrigue against the Men. And after all his perseption was proved to be true:Gandalf WAS planning a coupe to put an elve's marionette at the head of the dominion which is bordering with theirs realm.

There WAS a conspiracy, othervise Gandalf wouldn't be instructing Pippin to keep his mouth shut, and Denethor's suspicions was right on the target.

This subject has been beaten to death previously; even Frodo was allowed to go only as far as his will allows him to.
Quote it, please. So far I know that Elrond openly declared :"It is fate that the HOBBITS should rid the world of it".. (HOME,"The Retutn of the Shadow")
Dáin sent someone to get some advice how to handle that shady visitor they had and to warn Bilbo he was sought. There is no evidence of any other motive. Nevertheless he was sending the most untrusting person.
Besides, what was a great use of Gimli in the whole story? At least in the movie he was filling in as a comic relief. ;)
I disagree. For one, Boromir arrived in Rivendell because of his dream telling him to go there, Sauron had no hand in it. Boromir's arrival thus couldn't have thrown a wrench in any Gandalf or Aragorn's works.
If Galadriel, just a Quendi, can induce dreams and ideas in Men's heads, or a lesser maia Gandalf, then a such powerful and crafty maia, as Sauron, definately did not have problem to influece some ideas in a very spontaneous way. :)
Frankly, I would also find it silly if they couldn't even plan a trip to Mordor in detail but they could plan a coup d'état in Gondor.
Plan for coup d'etat was worked out 1000 years ago, since Elrond started to play a host for the homeless heirs of Isildur.
The need to destroy (or rehide) the Ring was a unplanned. If Gollum wouldn't blab about it in Mordor, everybody would stay in happy oblivion to its whereabout for another 1000 years.

[Butterbeer]

the south kingdom were usurpers anyway.

By rights it should have gone to the Northern Line.

All Elrond and his last homely house and political hotbed and breakfast were doing were ...

[Landroval]

which were destined to be the pawns of evil forces and, in spite of the presence of intelligence, they retained to be the races doomed for suppression and eradication.
Those of the elves that had contact with the valar knew that men were destined to inherit Arda. Those with enough fate (and therefore wisdom ;)) also believed that.
and suspected (quite rightfully) them and Gandalf to be involved in some shady intrigue against the Men.
I do hope you intended this as a joke.
Quote it, please.
Certainly
His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed.
So far I know that Elrond openly declared :"It is fate that the HOBBITS should rid the world of it".. (HOME,"The Retutn of the Shadow")
Then again, we needn't equate prophecy with condition.

[gwilwileth]

This is a very good point, having someone from Rohan in the fellowship could and would have spelled defeat. Any one loyal Theoden would actually be loyal to wormtounge who was under the command of Saruman who was under the influence of Sauron.

I dont think it would have spelled defeat at all. For example, lets take frodo. Do u think for one second that hobbiton knows what his plans were or what he was doing? Why would Rohan do be any different? If someone were from rohan in the fellowship it doesnt mean all of rohan, including wormtoungue, would know the plans of the fellowship.

[Sam]

But if someone from rohan were to go to a place like Rivendell (which was probably feared by the people of rohan, like fangorn forest). You would think that Theoden/Wormtoung would be notified.

[Earniel]

Nevertheless he was sending the most untrusting person.
Besides, what was a great use of Gimli in the whole story? At least in the movie he was filling in as a comic relief. ;)
A quote, if you please, to support that comment about the most untrusting person. For I remember nothing similar.

It is not because Gimli doesn't fit in some political situation to go along only as an observer to keep the ring out of other people's grubby paws, that he cannot have a use story-wise. His actions are in many ways no less important than those of his travel companions. And personally I find Gimli to be one of the most diverse characters in the whole fellowship.

If Galadriel, just a Quendi, can induce dreams and ideas in Men's heads, or a lesser maia Gandalf, then a such powerful and crafty maia, as Sauron, definately did not have problem to influece some ideas in a very spontaneous way. :)
That is still only an assumption on his ability to do so. I still doubt that even if Sauron could plant ideas in people's dreams from a distance, he could made it look like a message from the West. I also don't see the use for Sauron to plant this particular idea. If so, he would doubtlessly have made more an effort to slay Boromir underway.

Plan for coup d'etat was worked out 1000 years ago, since Elrond started to play a host for the homeless heirs of Isildur.
Rather farfetched- IMO. The situation changed in many ways over those 1000 years. There's little point in a 1000 years of plotting such coup d'etat.