Eru/Fate

[jammi567]

On the topic of the Valar and Eru, if Eru hadn't shown them the vision of the World and it's unfolding history, would the Valar have done anything different, or would they still do the same things because Fate was directing the course of history, even with Eru? Or was Eru the creater of Fate along with everything else, and because of this, doesn't have to live by the Rules that He created as much?

I hope we can get a good disscussion out of this. :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

On the topic of the Valar and Eru, if Eru hadn't shown them the vision of the World and it's unfolding history, would the Valar have done anything different, or would they still do the same things because Fate was directing the course of history, even with Eru? Or was Eru the creater of Fate along with everything else, and because of this, doesn't have to live by the Rules that He created as much?

I hope we can get a good disscussion out of this. :)The Athrabeth talks on this to a point. A better question might be: how would the vision and unfolding of the world have been if Melkor had not caused discord in the music.

[jammi567]

ok. well, i like to believe that without melkors discord that the good things in the story would last longer and be better, and that because of him not upseting the music, whether he would either a) forget his pride and anger and go back to the good side, or b) retain a bit of his evilness and bitterness, but make it like thingols and feanors respectively.

[Sister Golden Hair]

ok. well, i like to believe that without melkors discord that the good things in the story would last longer and be better, and that because of him not upseting the music, whether he would either a) forget his pride and anger and go back to the good side, or b) retain a bit of his evilness and bitterness, but make it like thingols and feanors respectively.The question certianly does place the reader in the "what if" position, which leaves room for a multitude of speculations. I believe that Eru was God and therefore the creator. Was he flawed in his creation or in the way he did it? Perhaps. IIRC, he left the Valar pretty much innocent and ignorant in what was going on, and revealed things to them little by little. Each of the Valar were made from a different portion of Illuvar's thought and were suppose to work in unison. However, it seems the more he revealed to them, the more they became independent of his thought. I think that once Melkor reached this point of knowledge, this is when the discord arose and the flaw in the creation occurred. Could Illuvatar have done more at that point to undo it? Did he let Melkor go too far? Melkor like the other Valar was the offspring of Eru's own thought. I'm not sure Melkor was ever good, but was just less bad in his ignorance than when Eru revealed more.

[jammi567]

i think that by the time Eru had made the Song, He knew it was already too late for Melkor to redem himself "But being alone he had began to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his breathen." So in knowing this, He just left it to be because there was nothing he could do about it. And also, of course, it proves that even before Ea was made, evil was already manifesting itself.

A question to ask ourself is what if Melkor had supressed his pride, sang about good things in the creation song, but turned truely evil after it had finished? Plus, would the elves, men etc have still been created if there had been no discord within the Music?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by jammi567

A question to ask ourself is what if Melkor had supressed his pride, sang about good things in the creation song, but turned truely evil after it had finished? Plus, would the elves, men etc have still been created if there had been no discord within the Music?Had Melkor supressed his evil and put good things into the Music, then the world itself would not have been plagued with some of the viles that diseased the lands, because he wouldn't have placed his power into the earth. But I don't kmow that turning evil or revealing his evil after the forming of the world, that it would have been any different.

I think Elves, Men, etc would have still been created especially had there been no discord in the Music, because that was the plan, and inspite of Melkor causing discord, the plan proceeded anyway.

[jammi567]

[QUOTE=Sister Golden Hair] But I don't kmow that turning evil or revealing his evil after the forming of the world, that it would have been any different.QUOTE]

Why wouldn't it have been different. If what Eru showed the Valar in the vision of Ea was future events, then how would Melkors evil actions and pride have effected anything.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Why wouldn't it have been different. If what Eru showed the Valar in the vision of Ea was future events, then how would Melkors evil actions and pride have effected anything.Because according to Morgoth's Ring, Melkor placed his greater power into the world itself and made Arda corrupt. The Valar were spent in trying to clean up after him. Each time they made something fair, he would corrupt it until the Valar were exhausted and unable to repair his evil.

[jammi567]

With the Valar cleaning with Melkor's evil, do you think, for at the time, that they were doing it for themselves, or for the Children? Do you think that they would've worked as hard if they knew when they were going to awaken?

Having seen the Vision of what was to come, don't you think they should've done something more to punish Melkor? Or was there nothing they could do to change events as they happened in the book?

[durinsbane2244]

tolkien was Catholic. Eru Illuvitar is clearly God. thus, we can see that the Valar are the angels. BUT! there is a difference! after the initial changing of the song by Melkor, Eru forgives him, and shows him that his wrong has made it better, making rain and mist and snow and such. this is important, because Melkor does settle down, and it shows that once he turns evil again, it's even worse, because he's been forgiven already. and than, of course, maia follow him, [a third of the angels rebel with Satan] and, well, we all know what happens. as in Creation, Eru could very well have fixed it, but, like God, he believed that his Creations should be able to do as they wish. so they cast Melkor out of Arda, as Satan was cast from Heaven, and he made his abode in Utumno...Hell...and than, blast it, i can't recall the name...the battle where the Valar finally intervene...that's Revelations...they cast him out permanatly...pretty much...

so i guess that whole point of that is that Eru could've intervened, but didn't...he is God, and is above all powers...such as fate...

[jammi567]

i'm not a Catholic or Christian myself, so i never thought of it that way.

Having read your post, why do you think Eru didn't step in when he could clearly see things going bad (eg. killing trees, slaying at Alqualonde etc). Or do you believe that He couldn't intervine because it was already set out in the Creation song, or because He wanted to let everyone have a free choice to do what they believed was right, even if it was considered wrong to others.

Phew *whipes forehead*. This took me 15 minutes to write!

[durinsbane2244]

same reason God doesn't intervene or didn't...free will...he made us free, Eru made them free...free to make their own decisions, and free to suffer the consequences, and free to fix the problems they make...

[jammi567]

nice ideas, but what was the point then in showing them the Vision of events on Ea if in the end, they have a free will to change that Vision.

[durinsbane2244]

well, i can answer that too! this is cool, because i can give the catholic interpretation and know it's most likely true because of tolkien! [i too am catholic] it's just like God in real life, he knows what will happen, but he won't change it. we truly do choose what we do, but he knows what we will choose. even knowing this, he still gives us the option,and we still make the choice. so, even with the vision of the future, it all happens nonetheless. it's like, as life goes on, they did make their own choices, and Eru let them. he just knew what would end up happening.

i hope you can get that. it's a hard concept to grasp, and most can't.

[jammi567]

i get what you're saying, but having let them see the Vision, and presumaly see the choice they would have to make, the choice wouldn't be a choice because they would've seen themself make it, and so it would become a forced action, if you see what i mean.

I hope that makes sense to you.

[durinsbane2244]

it's not a forced action. it's more, "hey, you can do whatever you want. BUT, because i'm omniscient, i know what you're going to do. here it is." so they still had the choice, but maybe he showing them the vision changed the future, so the vision changed. the future is constantly changing, with every choice we make, so maybe showing them that did change it. i don't know. maybe showing them that made them think, "hey, things turn out alright eventually...cool" and they went about they're buisness. i don't know, again. point being, they made their own choices freely.

[jammi567]

i really like how, in this particular thread at least, you can apply your religion to something to make it...believeable, and something that we could apply to ourselves, if you see what i mean. :)

[durinsbane2244]

yes...it's good to have tolkien for this, because, lot's of times i will apply Catholicism to something, and people will say, "well, that's just your religion", but because it's tolkien and he had a lot of religious reference, it's right here!

[jammi567]

yes because i don't think that a lot of people knew that Tolkin was a Catholic and that those beliefs rubbed off onto his writing, even if in some cases he didn't realize that he was doing it.

[durinsbane2244]

true, but the Silmarillion is a tad obvious...

[jammi567]

good point! anyways, have you got a question for me (only it seams at the moment) to answer, instead of me asking and you answering. :)

[durinsbane2244]

hm...well...how far ahead do you think the vision went? if it went all the way, we would know where Men went when they died, no?

[jammi567]

i think it might've gone to only near the end of the second age, when Numanor was swallowed up, because after that, they didn't seem to take a active part in middle earth after that, so it wouldn't matter to them what happens afterwards. also 'if it went all the way, we would know where Men went when they died, no?' i don't think so because a) it seems like the Valar were only told it's *possible* future events, not any of the 'technical' stuff :D, and b) even if they did know, i don't think they would tell the elf or man writing The Silmarillion these details because for the elves, it wouldn't matter, and for the men, they weren't important enough, nor would they have a person to tell them that knowledge. :)

[durinsbane2244]

true enough...but though they didn't take an active part, they did send the maia...gandy... :D

[CAB]

I guess that I am a little late with this, but regarding the foreknowledge/free-will question, Valandil gave what I consider to be an excellent answer in an earlier thread.

An explanation about God (EDIT: in this regard) that I understood the best was a different understanding of how God views the passage of time. We see one moment of time at once, obviously... we're limited in this way. Someone once suggested that God sees time THIS way: then put his hands about four feet apart, the one hand signifying the beginning of time, the other hand signifying the end, with God freely viewing (and because of His infinite qualities, fully comprehending) the entire scope of all time at once.

If this is a correct assessment of how God may view time, it's easier to understand the concept of 'foreknowledge' (knew what was going to happen) without that of 'foreordination' (determined what was going to happen).

[jammi567]

i understand the top paragraph, but can someone explain the bottom bit. :confused:

p.s no-one is ever too late for any discussion. :)

[CAB]

i understand the top paragraph, but can someone explain the bottom bit. :confused:
It basically means the same thing that durinsbane said in the first part of post 16. I’m no philosopher, but I think one of the common questions in philosophy is: Can free will exist if foreknowledge exists? If God already knows what you are going to do, then how can you be free to choose? This is an answer to that question and, in the opinion of this admitted non-philosopher, is a very good one.[/QUOTE]

[jammi567]

nice answer. :) I can't remember now, but wasn't there something about a Valar who could see into the future, but wasn't allowed to speak. if this is the case, then is direct knowledge of the future dangerous to both the individual and the valar s/he shares it with, because trying to change it would create a future that is usially badder then what was told?

p.s i'm no philosipher either!

[CAB]

nice answer. :) I can't remember now, but wasn't there something about a Valar who could see into the future, but wasn't allowed to speak. if this is the case, then is direct knowledge of the future dangerous to both the individual and the valar s/he shares it with, because trying to change it would create a future that is usially badder then what was told?

All the Valar could probably see the future to some degree. The Vala you are referring to is Mandos. His knowledge of the future was greater than anyone other than Eru’s. He spoke his prophesies only at Manwe’s command. I can’t remember why he was limited this way, but that is an interesting question. It could be because of the reason you mentioned. That is a danger that Galadriel warned Frodo of concerning her mirror. Well, I can’t think about that right now. Gotta go. Thanks for the feedback. :)

[jammi567]

that's ok. if all the valar can see into the future, what use would that be if none of them are allowes to use it? One last question for tonight: do the valar have a fea (soul)? Well, night all.

[durinsbane2244]

i think so. they represent angels, who are nothing but soul. also, they obviously do, because Melkor rebelled.

and CAB, THANK YOU!!! wow...that was so helpful to bring that in from Valandil, and Val, if you're reading, BRILLIANT!!! :D

[jammi567]

what has Melkor rebelling got to do with the Valar obviosly having a soul or being nothing but souls.

[durinsbane2244]

by Melkor rebelling, that shows that the Valar DO have free will... :cool:

[jammi567]

so are you saying that if you have a soul, you have a free will.

[durinsbane2244]

yes...but that's not the point here...all i'm saying is that the Valar did.

[jammi567]

ok, can see what you're saying now. but why just the Valar, why not elves, men etc. also, if all the valar can see into the future, what use would that be if none of them are allowes to use it?

[durinsbane2244]

they can use it...than the future just changes...i think when one sees into the future, they see it as it is when they see it...than, with the knowledge, they make different choices or such, and thus the futures changes...

[jammi567]

fair enough. so they basically had it so that the choices they had to make would be easier to decide thich one to chose.

[durinsbane2244]

yes...

[jammi567]

glad that's settled. would anybody else like to ask a question as you must be sick of me asking so many of them.

[durinsbane2244]

weeeeeeeelll....who do you think sauron represents? i think that as Melkor is clearly Satan, Sauron is the Anti-Christ...Gandalf, of course, being Jesus...

[jammi567]

I don't so much see him as an anti-christ, at least not in the sil, but as a fallen angel because he originally worked for the good side, working for Aule. same with saruman in the third age. i like your idea of Gandalf being Jesus. sacrificing himself in all knowledge, probally, that he would be killed. 12, at least, *deciples* thinking him dead and moarning him in their own way (rest of fellowship, Elrond, Galadriel, Faramir, and Glorfindal. i know there are probally others, but those were the only ones i could think of, and of course keeping within the limits), and then coming back more powerful and wonderful then he was before.

note: i'm not religious in any way.

[durinsbane2244]

yes, gandalf has often been compared to Christ, and when i made the Anti-Christ comment, i had only the LotR in mind...hm...taking into light the Sil, perhaps he is a high-ranking demon...Mephistopheles? maybe Beelzebub...

[jammi567]

:eek: gandalf a demon. :eek:

[durinsbane2244]

no!!! sauron a demon!!! :D

[Landroval]

Gandalf, of course, being Jesus
I think the professor would disagree with you:
Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death; and came back or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, it is not really the same thing at all. The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write. Here I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees.

[durinsbane2244]

i didn't say he DIRECTLY or INTENTIONATLY made gandy Jesus, buuuut.... :D

[jammi567]

phew! :D anything else?

[durinsbane2244]

hm...how about elvis REALLY being an alien and appearing as Manwe, the King? :cool: :p dunno...*thinks hard*...i'll come back with one...don't you worry... :cool:

[Arien the Maia]

I had read somewhere that EArandil is considered by some to be a sort of "Christ". any opinions? He did, after all, come on behalf of BOTH races...as Christ did being both God and human.

[Landroval]

It does reffer to a divine messenger, but apparently not to Chris; in Notion Club Papers, HoME IX, we find this footnote:
Its earliest recorded A-S form is earendil (oer-), later earendel, eorendel. Mostly in glosses on jubar = leoma; also on aurora. But also in Blickling Homilies, “se niwa eorendel” applied to St John the Baptist; and most notably Crist, eala! earendel engla beorhtast ofer middangeard monnum sended. Often supposed to refer to Christ (or Mary), but comparison with Blickling Homilies suggests that it refers to the Baptist. The lines refer to a herald, and divine messenger, clearly not the sodfaesta sunnan leoma = Christ. The last words of this note refer to the following lines in the poem Crist: '... and true radiance of the sun, bright above the stars - thou of thy very self illuminest for ever every season.'

The Blickling Homilies are a collection of Old English sermons preserved in a manuscript at Blickling Hall in Norfolk.
Edit: furthermore:
The use of earendel in A-S Christian symbolism as the herald of the rise of the true Sun in Christ is completely alien to my use. The Fall of Man is in the past and off stage; the Redemption of Man in the far future. We are in a time when the One God, Eru, is known to exist by the wise, but is not approachable save by or through the Valar, though He is still remembered in (unspoken) prayer by those of Numenorean descent.

[jammi567]

i have never read the Norton Club Papers because i find them too boring. :)

[durinsbane2244]

so maybe earendil is like...some kind of...prophet? or priest?

[Landroval]

In letter #142, Tolkien states that "...I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." So the priest label would not directly fit anyone.
Concerning prophecies, Earendil fulfilled them, as a divine messenger; I am not aware he made any.
When he that shall be called Earendil setteth foot upon the shores of Aman, ye shall remember my words. In that hour ye will not say that the Statute of Justice hath borne fruit only in death; and the griefs that shall come ye shall weigh in the balance, and they shall not seem too heavy compared with the rising of the light when Valinor groweth dim
(Ulmo to Tuor) But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness
Earendil had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamire. In this case both names were 'prophetic'. Tuor in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner. Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Noldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'. More purely prophetic was the name Ardamire 'Jewel of the World'; for Itarilde could not foresee in her waking mind the strange fate that brought at last the Silmaril into the possession of Earendil, and enabled his ship to pass through all the shadows and perils by which Aman was at that time defended from any approach from Middle- earth.

[durinsbane2244]

i didn't mean prophet so much as him prophesizing[sp?] so much as just being an ambassador between gods and men...which he does...

[Landroval]

Well, of all the ambasadors, he succeeded even where Ulmo 'failed'.

[durinsbane2244]

true...which is why i think he was a special "ambassador"...

[jammi567]

ok, we all know that he is an ambassador for both the Noldor of Beleriand and Men, and that he managed to do his job because of the fall of Gondolin. Well, what if Eol had managed to kill Maeglin, and so he wasn't there to cause it's fall. Would Earendil have still been able to fill his role, but just done different, or would it have been done by someone else by some other way?

[durinsbane2244]

i think he would have no reason to go to the Valar and thus wouldn't, and would either go when he needed to or, if he was old or dead, someone else would.

[jammi567]

if someone else had to do the task, who would you pick, who was alive at the time earendil had to do it. i would chose either Maedhros or Maglor because although they took the Oath willingly, they really seemed to repent it, especially in the later years. So this would be a really good chance to repent the fact that they ever took an oath, and the effects that's it's caused.

[durinsbane2244]

good choices...i always liked them and felt sorry for them...

[Landroval]

i would chose either Maedhros or Maglor because although they took the Oath willingly, they really seemed to repent it, especially in the later years.
It is highly unlikely that they would; they were driven by the curse of Mandos, which was lifted only after the war of wrath and by their oath.

[durinsbane2244]

yes, but this would be a perfect oppurtunity for redemption...

[jammi567]

excactly my point. oh, and on the subject of Maglor, do you think that he is still wandering "ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves" by the end of the third age?

[durinsbane2244]

dunno...aragorn or cirdan or gandalf would've found him, i think...

[jammi567]

if they had found him, what would they've done?

[durinsbane2244]

a good question...i dunno, really...but wait! aren't we a tad off-topic, jammi? :rolleyes: :p

[jammi567]

Also, how much did Sauron persuade Morgoth to do things in the first age? Or was Morgoth such a brill tactitioner that he didn't need any help?

[durinsbane2244]

maybe EVERYTHING was Sauron's idea, and Melkor was just a pushover? :D

[jammi567]

might be. :)

[durinsbane2244]

i can just picture it...hm...i should formulate my thoughts and go post in the "they'd never say that" thread...guest star Melkor...

[jammi567]

nice thoughts @ http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?p=549460#post549460 :D

[durinsbane2244]

ah, thankee jam! i was just going to come tell everyone to go look too! :p hehe...daisies...i just added a bit though...

[jammi567]

much better now edited. :D

[durinsbane2244]

thank you, thank you! ;)

[Landroval]

Also, how much did Sauron persuade Morgoth to do things in the first age? QUOTE]
I wouldn't say so:
[QUOTE=Valaquenta, Silmarillion]In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
And in Myths Transofrmed, it is further said that Sauron had adored his master :D

[jammi567]

so your point is?

[durinsbane2244]

methinks they're saying that sauron didn't persuade them to do anything and that everything was morgoth's idea and sauron just followed because he loved and honored morgoth...just a vague guess though... ;)

[Landroval]

methinks they're saying that sauron didn't persuade them to do anything and that everything was morgoth's idea and sauron just followed because he loved and honored morgoth...just a vague guess though... ;)
Indeed. My messed-up post was due to writing from work :rolleyes:
Another interesting bit from the Myths about Melkor pursuing only his designs:

"The time of Melkor's greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale. And later after things had become more stable, Melkor was more interested in and capable of dealing with a volcanic eruption, for example, than with (say) a tree. It is indeed probable that he was simply unaware of the minor or more delicate productions of Yavanna: such as small flowers (If such things were forced upon his attention, he was angry and hated them, as coming from other minds than his own)."

[durinsbane2244]

so yeah, melkor was a control-freak... :D

[jammi567]

seams like it.

[durinsbane2244]

1]seems. 2] yes, indeed! :p

[jammi567]

Why do you think Eru showed them the Vision of the world completed, and then make everything Be!?

[Landroval]

Why do you think Eru showed them the Vision of the world completed, and then make everything Be!?
So that everyone knows who is the Big Guy :D:
Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done

[jammi567]

true enough :) .

[durinsbane2244]

he was probably letting them know what to expect, so they weren't too shocked. ;)

[jammi567]

why would they be shocked?

[durinsbane2244]

dunno. they do have emotions.

[jammi567]

i guessed that much.

[durinsbane2244]

and thus, they might be a bit overwelmed with the first sight.

[jammi567]

fair enough.

[durinsbane2244]

quite.

[jammi567]

can you think of things to disguss for a while because i'm out of questions (but hopefully not of ideas). :D

[durinsbane2244]

hm...i shall try!..later! :p

[jammi567]

just thought of a question: do you think Ungoliant was in Morgoths sevace originally, and then split from him sometime, or is she just miair who came down for her own reason(s)?

[Landroval]

She was once in Melkor's service:
The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master

[durinsbane2244]

sooooo...maiar who chose to take the form of a spider...yeah...weirdo! :p

[jammi567]

i've just looked here (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=6057) and here (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=5135), and i really love peoples thoughts on this, especially that Eru know the choices that people (elves and men) could make and that possible outcomes, but that it was upto that person to make a choice.

p.s do you believe that Eru had a bit of evil within him.

[durinsbane2244]

can you rephrase your postscript, please?

[jammi567]

better?

[jammi567]

glad we've reached 101 post with just a couple of us, taking part on a very difficult subject.

[durinsbane2244]

ah, alright. no. no i don't. that would be saying that God had a bit of evil in Him. so no. :cool:

[jammi567]

i hope i'm not being rude or anything, but why don't you think Eru has even a little bit of evil. After all, He allowed the valar to distroy Numenor, for example, despite the fact that they were wrongly corrupted, and that He should be punishing Sauron instead.

[Landroval]

It depends on what evil is, considered at the highest possible level (that is, Eru's). I have no problem with Finrod's statement that the joy of His children is His main purpose. Moreover, in letter 212 it is said that:
A divine 'punishment' is also a divine 'gift', if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make 'punishments' (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained

[durinsbane2244]

good point Lan. evil is never evil to the one doing it. for all the He does He has a divine purpose, and it can be interpreted by Men how they wish.

[jammi567]

i like what you've put, but is Eru creating Melkor show that He has a mixture of both good and evil, and is capable of doing evil things, or is it that he just understands it.

[Landroval]

Is there anything 'evil', if evil in itself is only a stage of more good? I esspecially like the way Tolkien pictured this in his letter #64:
I sometimes feel appalled at the thought of the sum total of human misery all over the world at the present moment: the millions parted, fretting, wasting in unprofitable days - quite apart from torture, pain, death, bereavement, injustice. If anguish were visible, almost the whole of this benighted planet would be enveloped in a dense dark vapour, shrouded from the amazed vision of the heavens! And the products of it all will be mainly evil - historically considered. But the historical version is, of course, not the only one. All things and deeds have a value in themselves, apart from their 'causes' and 'effects'. No man can estimate what is really happening at the present sub specie aeternitaris. All we do know, and that to a large extent by direct experience, is that evil labours with vast power and perpetual success - in vain: preparing always only the soil for unexpected good to sprout in. So it is in general, and so it is in our own lives.
The same idea is reinforced in Tolkien's created universe:
(Manwe) must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil.

[jammi567]

don't think me stupid or anything, but what does your first quote mean, what is Tolkien saying?

[Arien the Maia]

don't think me stupid or anything, but what does your first quote mean, what is Tolkien saying?

in a nutshell he's saying that "out of something bad, comes something good". Evil can and never will prevail over Good.

am I right here? :confused:

[durinsbane2244]

yes, but that doesn't mean that evil is ok. maybe stuff like...fire! fire can be good, helpful, like warmth, cooking, and (very good analogy here) when you burn down a forest to revive it. it can also kill and be quite naughty. naughtiness is not good. it's evil. bad evil.

[Arien the Maia]

yes, but that doesn't mean that evil is ok. maybe stuff like...fire! fire can be good, helpful, like warmth, cooking, and (very good analogy here) when you burn down a forest to revive it. it can also kill and be quite naughty. naughtiness is not good. it's evil. bad evil.

true, true...but were not several Maiar, fire Maiar? Arien and the Balrogs for instance? so I don't think that fire was considered evil from the get go. dangerous to some but not evil.

[durinsbane2244]

oh, i was just using an analogy there. not saying that fire is downright evil. :D (Narya, eh?)

[Arien the Maia]

oh, i was just using an analogy there. not saying that fire is downright evil. :D (Narya, eh?)


good...otherwise I would have to smote you with the fire I wield! ;)

[durinsbane2244]

ah. glad i did than. untimely death my divine fire isn't that appealing...

[jammi567]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, i get it now.

[Arien the Maia]

ah. glad i did than. untimely death my divine fire isn't that appealing...

:D lol

[The Telcontarion]

The question certianly does place the reader in the "what if" position, which leaves room for a multitude of speculations. I believe that Eru was God and therefore the creator. Was he flawed in his creation or in the way he did it? Perhaps. IIRC, he left the Valar pretty much innocent and ignorant in what was going on, and revealed things to them little by little. Each of the Valar were made from a different portion of Illuvar's thought and were suppose to work in unison. However, it seems the more he revealed to them, the more they became independent of his thought. I think that once Melkor reached this point of knowledge, this is when the discord arose and the flaw in the creation occurred. Could Illuvatar have done more at that point to undo it? Did he let Melkor go too far? Melkor like the other Valar was the offspring of Eru's own thought. I'm not sure Melkor was ever good, but was just less bad in his ignorance than when Eru revealed more.

Eru was perfect in every way, and everything in his universe was intended that way; the good and the bad. Behold:

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulrmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province ? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost ! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists ; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth ! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'
Then Ulrmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwe, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!' And Manwe and Ulrno have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Iluvatar.

The conception of the other Auinu was more symmetrical. All angles and plains, rectangular oceans and triangular poles and everlasting lamps and no darkness. They probably originally concieved of rows upon rose of uniformed trees for a forest etc. ( I think I had a goog reference for that in the one those other Tolkien books too). Without Melkor there would be no snow capped mountains and no natural bridges formed by the erosion of the sea; in the world of tolkien without the destruction of the lamps there would have been no sun or the moon.

Alas, further proof:

And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Feanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive. And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwe the answers of Feanor to his heralds, Manwe wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Feanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.'

But Mandos said: 'And yet remain evil. To me shall Feanor come soon.'

Just as president bush and his masters ( for he is just a puppet) gain there one world government, through the human spirit it will become something of pure good and become his undoing, even as they grasp it for their evil purposes (just like lord palpitine in star wars-he is playing both sides/wake up people; he is the terrorists as well as the federal government). The human spirit can not be distinguished. So as america and the constitution was a great creation, slavery still remained evil.

Bush and his masters will pay soon, there time is coming; all evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing; can I get an amen!!!

[Landroval]

I'm not sure Melkor was ever good
Well, in the Council of Elrond, Elrond states that
For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.
I doubt he would make a notable exception (Melkor). In letter #183, Tolkien implies states that Melkor fell - therefore he must have been good once; also there he states that:
(Sauron) had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth.
Thy mouth hath spoken the truth, brother Telcontarion!

[jammi567]

but don't you consider that is a neccessity because what would be the point of being good if there is no evil to be opposite to.

[jammi567]

anyone?

[durinsbane2244]

i think that being good without evil IS necessary. good for the sake of good, i say. that would be saying that you would have to be bad just because no one else is.

[jammi567]

i think that being good without evil IS necessary. good for the sake of good, i say. that would be saying that you would have to be bad just because no one else is.
But at least if you're bad, you get have cool outfits; do fun, bad things; let your minions do fun, bad things whilst you laze around all day; and have a cool, evil laugh! :D

[jammi567]

But at least if you're bad, you get have cool outfits; do fun, bad things; let your minions do fun, bad things whilst you laze around all day; and have a cool, evil laugh! :D
Whilst the good guys have to be serious all the time, do nothing that's remotly fun, and have to disrupt everyones enjoyment by basically cursing them to eventually fail in whatever they do, as well as nearly kill them all. :D

[jammi567]

common people, the sil forum really needs picking up. afterall, four days with no reply. :(

[durinsbane2244]

well, i can't think of something to say, and thus i haven't said it...

[jammi567]

here's an idea: why don't you reply to what i've written! :D

[durinsbane2244]

well, i believe the last thing you wrote was a joke about what good guys and bad guys do...what's the say, "ha ha?" k than. ha ha.

[jammi567]

well... yes it was a joke for bad/good guys in general, but when you put in contex of the sil, i seams to make perfect sense to me. :)

[Butterbeer]

... where IS this Sil forum you speak of?

sorry to condense this sentence so much btw ... best, BB :p

[jammi567]

... where IS this Sil forum you speak of?

sorry to condense this sentence so much btw ... best, BB :p
i seriously hope you're joking...

[Butterbeer]

;)


BB

[jammi567]

Butterbeer, if you're going to reply to this kind of thread, can you try and make a contribution, instead of just ( ;) ) at us.

[Butterbeer]

you gotta problem pal?

[jammi567]

all i'm saying is, to make this successful, and better as we go along, people need to either argue or agree, so the discussion can carry on without any problems.

[Butterbeer]

well, either way you look at it i'm sorted then.

If you take it the wrong way i am covered cus' i shall be arguing! :rolleyes:

no offence Jammi, but if you start joking around in a serious forum you cannot try to take any high moral ground if someone takes your lead and winks at you.

best, BB

[jammi567]

*opens mouth, then shuts it* i'm sorry that i offended you, and that i tried to take high moral ground over a stupid wink.

[Butterbeer]

heh

no problem

us english mooters gotta stick together!

;)

:D

have fun.

*i gotta go get some shut eye*

BB

[jammi567]

yeh, me too.

[durinsbane2244]

well...that was...both interesting and envy-ing...i wish i was in britain... :(

[jammi567]

well...that was...both interesting and envy-ing...i wish i was in britain... :(
yes, it was wasn't it.

[jammi567]

but, really, you're not missing out on anything. in two years time i wouldn't mind living in america.

[Butterbeer]

mmm ... maybe CHILE? ..not overly sure why but i'd like to do a stint there i guess ...

...................................

er- back to the SIL then please?

[jammi567]

i know it's totally my fault of distracting everyone, but how about we go back on topic, and talk about the Powers that control middle earth.

[Butterbeer]

do they though, control middle earth? Is that really their intended role or their arrogance?

[jammi567]

errrrrrrr, arragance.

[jammi567]

so, yes, anyone wish to answer the question of why the valars arragancehelps to rule middle earth.

[durinsbane2244]

i think it was their intended role. if Eru has these guys, right, and they're the ultimate [after him] power of each different element/area of creation, and he says, "hey, chaps, good singing! now why don't you go take a look-see down at what we've done?" i think that knowing that they, as faithful Valar, arethe reresentatives of Eru's will, and they're power, they were fully intended to govern Arda. now, i have yet to see any interference whatsoever in the affairs of Middle Earth. going over there to get Morgoth was there own buisness, he buggered off to another country. they had every right to get him. and telling the race of Man to stay away from Arda, understandable as well. as they were intentionally made with mortality, they should abide in mortal realms, so then, when they wouldn't stop what was, in essence, forcibly invading Arda, against the wills of its owners, they were banished to ME, which, in my opinion, was fair. so yeah, in conclusion, i think they were meant to govern.

[jammi567]

and telling the race of Man to stay away from Arda, understandable as well. as they were intentionally made with mortality, they should abide in mortal realms
intresting. so if everything happened roughly the same in the beginning, except instead of elves, it was men who woke first, do you think that the valar would've done the same thing and taken them to valinor, or would they still have been made to stay in middle earth/beleriand because they were mortals.

[durinsbane2244]

good question. if Manwe knew Eru's will as well as they say he did, he obviously knew they were meant for mortality, and thus hopefully would make the same choice.

[jammi567]

deleted.

[jammi567]

i thound this very intersting thread of turin and free will here (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=9536). Have a read of it, and then post what you think in relation to valar and their actions.

[jammi567]

is this a boring thread now, or is it that we've just used up all ideas that we've got? :)

[durinsbane2244]

i think we've run out of ideas, mate.... :( ;) :D

[jammi567]

do you think i should ask a mod to close it? :( :(

[durinsbane2244]

i think we can keep it open in case we think of something... ;)

[jammi567]

yer, just in case. :)

[Valtir]

The path to the answer is to ask: Does Eru sing jazz or opera?


Seems like an opera kinda guy to me.

[jammi567]

opera. but then, that's his public face. when he's alone, he puts on his makeup and becomes a goth rocker. :D

[jammi567]

I know that this is a really, really old thread of mine, but now that we have some people interested in this board again, i thought i'd boost it, so that maybe we can get some new ideas for it.

[Butterbeer]

do you think i should ask a mod to close it? :( :(


Traitor!

Live and let live ... or die in a straight-jacket!

[Butterbeer]

When did determinism thus become self-fulfilling?

..and if so how?

What point the music if it were a dead deterministic thing?

Surely the whole point about the music of creation and evolution and the gift of free will -

- was that it had the life of creating it's own music within an orchestral direction but not beholden to any conductor?

Else it is in no way music or in any sense we here understand, creative?

[Landroval]

I don't see determinism in the Silmarillion. Tolkien states that free will is guaranteed by Eru, even for those who apparently oppose him. Eru himself introduces in every age new things which do not appear in the music (Ainulindale); the Children of Eru themselves are as free as they could get; In Quendi and Eldar, Nienna states that the fea of each of the Eruhini is as strong as Mandos is (who she holds to be the strongest in Arda), and no power can move it if it will not.

[Butterbeer]

it's potentially littered with it for those that wish to see it that way, i guess...


But i agree with your purist view Landroval, in so far as as it is not deterministic, not taken in a modern day zealot like way.

But then, the question begs to be answered - how 'hand-on' is that 'guarantee'?

Best, BB

[Landroval]

how 'hand-on' is that 'guarantee'?
I think that the most intrusive way Eru would act is sending 'messages':
No mind can, however, be closed against Eru, either against His inspection or against His message. The latter it may not heed, but it cannot say it did not receive it.
That being said, after Eru sends his message, and the person receives it, he or she may still act away. As in a chess game, Eru may respond with a move of his own, but free will still exists, and mere communication does not hinder it.
i agree with your purist view
You surely meant this adjective in a laudative manner :p

[Jon S.]

Most of us are have probably at least heard of the word "koan," defined in Wikipedia as:

>> a story, dialogue, question, or statement in the history and lore of Chan (Zen) Buddhism, generally containing aspects that are inaccessible to rational understanding, yet that may be accessible to intuition. A famous kōan is, "Two hands clap and there is a sound; what is the sound of one hand?"

We usually think of koans as Eastern but they are common in Western science and philosopy, too, often in the form of seemingly unreconcilable dichotomies the depend on the point of view of the observer. An example of the former: light is both a wave and a particle (quantum mechanics). An example of the latter: all is foreseen yet free will is given (Talmud).

The latter is pretty much spot on to aspects of this discussion: ME may be determined and free will is given. :)