Middle-Earth what if...?

[Tig]

I love what ifs, don't you? Sure you do. So, I thought we could talk about some here, and some one can give a new one once in a while. I'd just like to make this clear that this is not focused solely on LotR, or The Hobbit for that matter, but to any time, place, or persons of Middle-Earth. So, I ask you, 'What if Saruman opposed Sauron for control of the ring?'

I'm not sure who would win out physically, the mass-produced Uruks of Isengard, or the vast legions of Mordor orcs, but... Even if Saruman wiped Mordor clean of every orc would he stand a chance? Sauron dies with the ring alone, but without the Orcs defending him could Sauron be removed? Like could Saruman destroy Baradur, and then without anyone to rebuild it would Sauron be 'stuck between' worlds? He'd have no physical presence in Middle-Earth any more, in his body or in Baradur, but with the ring still in one piece he wouldn't be gone. Or would Sauron's will take possession of Saruman, and that be his new, adopted body?

With this I'd like to mention one last thing. I'd like to just point you in the direction of my RP-to-be, which focuses on this what if(?). If you're interested just leave a note here or there (there being >>> http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=547513#post547513 ), but please at least check it out.

[CAB]

My personal feeling is that if Saruman had obtained the One Ring and if he managed to master it, then he would have made Sauron his slave, in much the same way that the Nazgul were slaves to Sauron. If he took the Ring but was unable to master it...well I am not sure. I personally don’t think that Sauron could possess someone else’s body. One way or the other, if Sauron knew that Saruman had the Ring, he would have made quite sure that Saruman’s “One Ring training” was as difficult and unpleasant as possible.

While the Ring continued to exist, Sauron could not be permanently removed. His physical form had been destroyed twice before but he wasn’t truly defeated until the power of the Ring was broken.

I don’t believe that Sauron’s presence was tied to Barad-dur. However, I must admit that I don’t understand the importance placed on this fortress. Why was it mentioned that the foundations of Barad-dur couldn’t be removed while the Ring existed? Why would anyone take the trouble to try to do this anyway? Maybe I am missing something here.

I believe that if Saruman had defeated or enslaved Sauron, then he would have occupied Barad-dur himself, rather than attempt to destroy it.

[Landroval]

While the Ring continued to exist, Sauron could not be permanently removed.
I agree, no soul can be destroyed and all maiars are bound to Ea until the end. But if he lost the mastery of the ring, the result would have been the same as if the ring was destroyed:
If Gandalf proved the victor [in a direct confrontation, while having the ring], the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.

[Butterbeer]

... who IS this mysterious poster Letter #246 ??? :p

IF Saruman had the one and had mastered it ... he could, were he to choose to, shake down the foundations of Barad-dur ... heres a question though: would he not keep Sauron as a lesser minion, much as he himself did to the nazgul??

far more enteratining!

and what of Gandalf?
What would Lord Saruman of many rings do with him do you think? :D

[CAB]

If Gandalf proved the victor , the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.
I would say that there are different ways to interpret this quote. It doesn’t seem logical to me that Sauron’s physical body would be destroyed because his forces lost to Gandalf’s forces in battle. If it means that he couldn’t reform his body if Gandalf destroyed it, that makes more sense. But there are other options. It could simply mean that he would never get the Ring back or be able to use the part of his power which the Ring held, in spite of the fact that his body still existed. It could mean that he was permanently weakened, and would never again be the greatest force in Middle Earth, etc.

[I]IF Saruman had the one and had mastered it ... he could, were he to choose to, shake down the foundations of Barad-dur ... heres a question though: would he not keep Sauron as a lesser minion, much as he himself did to the nazgul??

far more enteratining!
Thanks for the support Butterbeer, if I may take it as such. I freely admit that if there are two equally plausible options, then I will lean towards the more entertaining one. We are talking about a work of fiction after all. This is part of the reason why I think that the Moria Balrog was imprisoned by Sauron instead of moving rocks. It is just more interesting.

and what of Gandalf?
What would Lord Saruman of many rings do with him do you think? :D
Probably something bad.

[Gordis]

Interesting thread.
My personal feeling is that if Saruman had obtained the One Ring and if he managed to master it, then he would have made Sauron his slave, in much the same way that the Nazgul were slaves to Sauron.

Which was quite feasible. The new Ringlord would have in his possession a part of Sauron'e fea (or his power, or his will) plus he would be able to control Sauron via the 12 Rings he held.

I don’t believe that Sauron’s presence was tied to Barad-dur. However, I must admit that I don’t understand the importance placed on this fortress. Why was it mentioned that the foundations of Barad-dur couldn’t be removed while the Ring existed? Why would anyone take the trouble to try to do this anyway? Maybe I am missing something here.
The foundations were made with the power of the Ring, so couldn't be unmade while the Ring existed. Isildur and Co tried to demolish Barad-Dur after the Last alliance, but failed. Demolishing evemy stronholds was common practice, it seems. Much like Aragorn ordering to raze Minas Morgul.

I believe that if Saruman had defeated or enslaved Sauron, then he would have occupied Barad-dur himself, rather than attempt to destroy it.
Sure, he always fancied it. Even tried to reconstruct Isengard in the similar way.

About the quote from # 246.
I interpret it this way. A part of Sauron's fea was contained in the Ring. Once it was destroyed, he lost his shape forever. If Gandalf defeated Sauron in direct confrontation, it meant that he took full possession of the Ring and its powers, depriving Sauron of a part of his fea. So the effect on Sauron would be the same as the Ring's destruction.

I can't say that I agree with this idea, but who am I to contradict the Professor? :rolleyes:

[CAB]

Demolishing evemy stronholds was common practice, it seems. Much like Aragorn ordering to raze Minas Morgul.:
Yes, I suppose it is just that simple. Destroying foundations seemed like overkill to me, but I guess if you are destroying a stronghold and the foundation is part of that stronghold...

About the quote from # 246.
I interpret it this way. A part of Sauron's fea was contained in the Ring. Once it was destroyed, he lost his shape forever. If Gandalf defeated Sauron in direct confrontation, it meant that he took full possession of the Ring and its powers, depriving Sauron of a part of his fea. So the effect on Sauron would be the same as the Ring's destruction.:
I don’t know. Sauron’s fea and power must have been tied together or he wouldn’t have put both in the Ring (at least I can’t imagine why). So how do you remove one and not the other? On the other hand, if they (fea and power) are really the same thing then the problem is even bigger. If it was merely deprivation, how would this be any different than Sauron being deprived of the Ring while not being defeated?

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer
IF Saruman had the one and had mastered it ... he could, were he to choose to, shake down the foundations of Barad-dur ... heres a question though: would he not keep Sauron as a lesser minion, much as he himself did to the nazgul??

I agree with you there, but had Saruman got the ring, would he be mentally strong enough to control both Sauron's soul and power. Also, do you think that with the ring, he (sauman) would be able to control the balrog of moria.

[Gordis]

had Saruman got the ring, would he be mentally strong enough to control both Sauron's soul and power. Also, do you think that with the ring, he (sauman) would be able to control the balrog of moria.
You forget about Eru and the Valar. What abouit Gandalf? After Gandalf 'died', went to Valinor and repoted to the Valar and Eru about Saruman's betrayal, he was appointed the Head of the Order of Istari, while Saruman was demoted and cast from the Order. It resulted in the loss of almost all Saruman's power. Only his voice was left to him, and even its effect was weakened.

So the question is, whether Saruman gets the One Ring BEFORE or AFTER he was demoted and his staff and power broken?

[jammi567]

before he got demoted.

[Gordis]

Then I think he had a good chance to defeat Sauron, better than Gandalf.
The Ring-Lore was Saruman's special province.

Perhaps he made his own Ring hoping to supplant the missing One?

I imagine him testing it:
Saruman to nazgul " Come and bow to me!"
Nazgul: " Go to Ungoliant, you fool" :p

[jammi567]

yes, but do you think his arrogance would get in the way and make him do something stupid. On another 'what if...', what would have happened if instead of waiting two months from the council of Elrond, the company had gone immejectly, because surely Aragon, Gandalf and Elrond knew that without either shapes or horses, it would take time for the black riders to get back to Sauron to tell him what had happened. Just a thought.

[Gordis]

yes, but do you think his arrogance would get in the way and make him do something stupid.
He needs all his arrogance to face Sauron... As for mistakes - who knows?
And Saruman will be much more predictable for Sauron than Gandalf and Co. They think alike.

On another 'what if...', what would have happened if instead of waiting two months from the council of Elrond, the company had gone immejectly, because surely Aragon, Gandalf and Elrond knew that without either shapes or horses, it would take time for the black riders to get back to Sauron to tell him what had happened. Just a thought.
There might have been some slight differences: There would be less orcs in Moria. But Gollum and the Barlog would be there all right. Galadriel would not be expecting to see them: probably they would be denied access to Lorien. Probably there would be no trap at Path Galen, or, alternatively, there would be only Saruman's and Moria orcs, but not Mordor ones. All in all, little would be changed, IMHO.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Yeah, I don't think much would've changed either Gordis.

What if Saruman captured the Ring, defeated Sauron, and took the Nine Rings; could he then decide to give them to new men to create new Wraiths? I don't how the Nine worked but, if I were Sauron I would want some new Wraiths. You know, get some new management. A sort of Wraith Dream Team. It would be hard to find a replacement for the With King but I would definitely try and get Aragorn and Faramir into it. They wouldn't take the ring by choice but Saruman did have a way with words. Eomer would be another I'd try and 'recruit'. Prince Imrahil would be another good addition. Who else would could we get?

[Landroval]

It doesn’t seem logical to me that Sauron’s physical body would be destroyed because his forces lost to Gandalf’s forces in battle.
No, it reffers to a direct confrontation between Gandalf and Sauron alone.
If Gandalf defeated Sauron in direct confrontation, it meant that he took full possession of the Ring and its powers, depriving Sauron of a part of his fea.
The fea being indestructible, I fail to see how could one person deprive another of a part of it.
After Gandalf 'died', went to Valinor and repoted to the Valar and Eru about Saruman's betrayal, he was appointed the Head of the Order of Istari, while Saruman was demoted and cast from the Order.
I am curious, how did you arrive at the conclusion he went to Valinor? The letters point otherwise.

[Gordis]

I am curious, how did you arrive at the conclusion he went to Valinor? The letters point otherwise.
Like where? To Eru directly?

[Landroval]

Like where? To Eru directly?
Indeedy:
He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.

[Gordis]

Well, it doesn't change matters much. However it is curious that an Ainu fea left the Circles of the World, however briefly. Manwe communicated with Eru without leaving Valinor. Why couldn't Gandalf?

Not that I am much interested in this, anyway...

[CAB]

The fea being indestructible, I fail to see how could one person deprive another of a part of it.
There is a big difference between deprivation and destruction. It seems possible to me that part of the definition of Ringwraiths could be “Men who are partially deprived of their fea by Sauron, via their individual rings”.

I am curious, how did you arrive at the conclusion he went to Valinor? The letters point otherwise.
Yes, I suppose this one does.
Letter #156
He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.


However, this one supports the view that he couldn’t leave the world, yet.
Letter #212
Many of the Ainur did enter into it, and must bide in it till the End, being involved in Time, the series of events that complete it. These were the Valar, and their lesser attendants.
Here we find a contradiction in the Letters. Letter #212 supports the view given in the Silmarillion. Letter #156 may support the rather vague statement Gandalf made in The Two Towers. Which is the correct (or most reasonable) view? Logic tells me that Eru had no need to bring Gandalf out of the circles of the world to converse with him, or to send him back to Middle Earth, so I will go with the much more established idea that the Ainur didn’t leave the world until the end. For me, a statement in one letter, which is contradicted by another letter and most of the relevant published material isn’t very convincing.

[Landroval]

Many of the Ainur did enter into it, and must bide in it till the End, being involved in Time, the series of events that complete it.
Then again, this statement reffers to the obligation of the valar to remain until the end - yet it doesn't restrict on what Eru could do, because nothing can restrict Eru.

There is a precedent of an Ainu who entered Ea - and then exited it before its end (again, by the intervention of Eru, according to Myths Transformed) - Melkor.

[jammi567]

On the topic of the Valar and Eru, if Eru hadn't shown them the vision of the World and it's unfolding history, would the Valar have done anything different, or would they still do the same things because Fate was directing the course of history?

[Gordis]

Jammi, it is really off-topic. I advise you to open a special thread for this question.

I am sure Landroval will have much to say on the topic :)

[jammi567]

how is that question off topic? :confused:

[CAB]

Then again, this statement reffers to the obligation of the valar to remain until the end - yet it doesn't restrict on what Eru could do, because nothing can restrict Eru.
Sure, agreed. But why would he unnecessarily break a rule that he himself made? Because that is what Tolkien told Robert Murray (the recipient of this letter), and no one else? Tolkien may have felt compelled to give this explanation of Gandalf’s return due to Mr Murray’s position in the church. Who knows? I don’t really have a problem with Eru taking an active role, it seems logical, but Gandalf leaving the world is unnecessary, illogical, and contradicts the rule Eru made.

[Gordis]

I fully agree, CAB. I am sure that what is written in the Letters is influenced A LOT by the personality of the recepient. Sometimes it even contradicts the conceptions of the books. I would prefer not to rely on the Letters SO much.

Jammi: the topic of the thread is what if Saruman took the Ring. The question you posted last is on a very different topic, so it is better to open a special thread, IMO.

[Landroval]

But why would he unnecessarily break a rule that he himself made?
I find the "unnecessarily" label interesting; what would be the reasons which for the best way, considering all present and future (:rolleyes: ) factors, to ressurect Gandalf and to enrich his powers and wisdom is to do this in Arda Marred (and not outside it, where Eru resides)?

To give a fuller account:
For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to ‘the Rules’: for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The ‘wizards’, as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’ Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an ‘angel’ — no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgûl to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed — and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands. In the end before he departs for ever he sums himself up: ‘I was the enemy of Sauron’. He might have added: ‘for that purpose I was sent to Middle-earth’. But by that he would at the end have meant more than at the beginning. He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. ‘Naked I was sent back — for a brief time, until my task is done’. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the ‘gods’ whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed ‘out of thought and time’.

[Gordis]

I find the "unnecessarily" label interesting; what would be the reasons which for the best way, considering all present and future (:rolleyes: ) factors, to ressurect Gandalf and to enrich his powers and wisdom is to do this in Arda Marred (and not outside it, where Eru resides)?

I find the "unnecessary' label quite appropriate. Why could Glorfindel be ressurected and enriched in powers in Arda marred, while Gandalf couldn't be?

I believe this "passed out of time and space" to be only a poetic description of death. He was unconscious, that is all. I will never believe that an Ainu was allowed to get out of the Circles of the World and then return.

And what if he gets some incling about the fate of Men and tells the others? :eek: :p

[CAB]

I find the "unnecessarily" label interesting; what would be the reasons which for the best way, considering all present and future (:rolleyes: ) factors, to ressurect Gandalf and to enrich his powers and wisdom is to do this in Arda Marred (and not outside it, where Eru resides)?

You already answered this question, in this very thread.
yet it doesn't restrict on what Eru could do, because nothing can restrict Eru.

[Landroval]

You already answered this question, in this very thread.
I asked you about motivations, not about abilities. You still have the burden of proof concerning why this was an unnecessary act. Is there any precedent of unncessary actions by Eru? Not that I know; but there is a precedent of Eru removing another fea from this world; do you second guess Eru on that one too or do you prefer to ignore it and challenge only this case? Or are you second guessing the proffesor's sincerity? Either case, you need to bring some proof, otherwise this is simply a personal opinion.

[Landroval]

Why could Glorfindel be ressurected and enriched in powers in Arda marred, while Gandalf couldn't be?
That's a false comparison;Glorfindel is an elf and all elves who are reimbodied are increased in power; maiar on the other hand don't have this perk. Sauron lost power with each reimbodiment.
I will never believe that an Ainu was allowed to get out of the Circles of the World and then return.
You wouldn't?
Then Úrin departed, but would not touch the gold, and stricken in years he reached Hisilómë and died among Men, but his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men. Yet it is said that when he was dead his shade fared into the woods seeking Mavwin, and long those twain haunted the woods about the fall of Silver Bowl bewailing their children. But the Elves of Kôr have told, and they know, that at last Úrin and Mavwin fared to Mandos, and Nienóri was not there nor Túrin their son. Turambar indeed had followed Nienóri along the black pathways to the doors of Fui, but Fui would not open to them, neither would Vefántur. Yet now the prayers of Úrin and Mavwin came even to Manwë, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy fate, so that those twain Túrin and Nienóri entered into Fôs'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so were all their sorrows and stains washed away, and they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil.'
When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be fought. Fionwë will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Túrin shall be beside him; it shall be Túrin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Húrin shall be avenged.
Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Eärendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwë and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, Conqueror of Fate, and it shall be the black sword of Túrin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.

[jammi567]

yes, but what you're quoting there are primitive ideas, all of which he eventually abandoned.

[Landroval]

yes, but what you're quoting there are primitive ideas, all of which he eventually abandoned.
I disagree; the Last Battle is reffered to even in Myths Transformed (HoME X) and in People of Middle Earth (HoME XII).

[jammi567]

the point is that it wasn't included into the published sil. i'm not dismissing all ideas from the HoME, just that particular one.

[Landroval]

the point is that it wasn't included into the published sil.
This version, published 4 years after Tolkien's death, only reflects Christopher's selection of scenarios, not Tolkien's. Seeing that appears in almost every stage of creation, I don't have a problem with the Last Battle.

[CAB]

I asked you about motivations, not about abilities. You still have the burden of proof concerning why this was an unnecessary act. Is there any precedent of unncessary actions by Eru? Not that I know;
I must be missing something here. Eru=God. God is all-powerful. Yet Eru must remove Gandalf from the world before he can change him? This makes no sense. I suppose the only proof you will accept is a direct Tolkien quote. Sorry, I don’t have one. All I have is very simple logic. And by the way, if Eru didn’t bring Gandalf to him to make the change, which is what I am arguing, then there would be no unnecessary act.
but there is a precedent of Eru removing another fea from this world; do you second guess Eru on that one too or do you prefer to ignore it and challenge only this case?
I would only challenge the Gandalf case. Removing Melkor is an entirely different and much more reasonable matter, which is supported by much more than one quote intended for one person. Also, I am not questioning Eru. The only way I would be is if I thought that he did bring Gandalf to him. I don’t.
Or are you second guessing the proffesor's sincerity?
You jump to this kind of accusation far too quickly. That is not what I meant. Done here.

[Gordis]

That's a false comparison;Glorfindel is an elf and all elves who are reimbodied are increased in power; maiar on the other hand don't have this perk. Sauron lost power with each reimbodiment.

Quote please - about all. I know only of Glorfindel being increased in power.

Maiar are becoming weaker after each self-reimbodiment, not when they are re-imbodied by Eru.

I think it is time to close this discussion. It is turning in rounds. :(

[Landroval]

I must be missing something here.
I agree; I talk about motivations and you about abilities. Even if one person can do anything, certain courses of action naturally provide quicker, longer lasting or better results for the doer, in and of themselves. If you have some evidence that resurecting him in Arda better suits Eru's whatever purposes, please provide it. So far, the only motivation I know Eru has is "the joy of His Children". Nothing about Gandalf being resurrected outside Arda Marred contradicts that. I know I would like to meet the Creator face to face, there hardly is a greater grace.
You jump to this kind of accusation far too quickly. That is not what I meant.
You will excuse me if I feel this way when I read these refferences:
"is supported by much more than one quote intended for one person"
"Because that is what Tolkien told Robert Murray (the recipient of this letter), and no one else? Tolkien may have felt compelled to give this explanation of Gandalf’s return due to Mr Murray’s position in the church. Who knows?"
Quote please
When the re-born elf was full-grown, it recalled all its former life, and then the old life, and the 'waiting', and the new life became one ordered history and identity. This memory would thus hold a double joy of childhood, and also an experience and knowledge greater than the years of its body. In this way the violence or grief that the re-born had suffered was redressed and its being was enriched. For the Re-born are twice nourished, and twice parented, and have two memories of the joy of awaking and discovering the world of living and the splendour of Arda. Their life is, therefore, as if a year had two springs and though an untimely frost followed after the first, the second spring and all the summer after were fairer and more blessed.
About Sauron, please reffer to Akallabeth (where he lost power to appear fairer ever again) or letter 211, concerning the time needed for his own bodily rehabilitation.

[jammi567]

why shouldn't Eru take Gandalf to him to make him stronger. because, afterall, 4 of your other members have either turned to evil, or have forgotten why they were sent there in the first place, so you're the one that has all of middle earth on your sholders, and Eru, the all seeing can see this. therefore, make him stronger so he can cope with this lonely task better.

[Gordis]

Thanks for the quote, Landroval. Now I know what you refer to.
Of rebirth and other dooms of those who go to Mandos, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Morgoth's Ring

When the re-born elf was full-grown, it recalled all its former life, and then the old life, and the 'waiting', and the new life became one ordered history and identity. This memory would thus hold a double joy of childhood, and also an experience and knowledge greater than the years of its body. In this way the violence or grief that the re-born had suffered was redressed and its being was enriched. For the Re-born are twice nourished, and twice parented, and have two memories of the joy of awaking and discovering the world of living and the splendour of Arda. Their life is, therefore, as if a year had two springs and though an untimely frost followed after the first, the second spring and all the summer after were fairer and more blessed.
They are enriched emotionally and gained more experience and knowledge. But the quote doesn't say that their power was increased. ;)

About Sauron, please reffer to Akallabeth (where he lost power to appear fairer ever again) or letter 211, concerning the time needed for his own bodily rehabilitation.
I know about Sauron. But, in contrast to Gandalf, he was self-ressurected. Therfore he lost power. Gandy was resurrected by Eru, thus boosted and upgraded.

[jammi567]

but then, maybe the power is the wisdom they had from their previous life.

[Gordis]

but then, maybe the power is the wisdom they had from their previous life.
I guess Sauron also gained more wisdom (well ar least knowledge) with each re-incarnation. :p

[jammi567]

are you trying to be funny! :p :D :)

[Landroval]

They are enriched emotionally and gained more experience and knowledge. But the quote doesn't say that their power was increased.
You missed the part about twice nourished and parented. With each children, the elves lose strength, that goes into the children - the most notorious case being that of Miriel and Feanor.
From the same text, which you apparently know:"The Eldar say that more than one re-birth is seldom recorded. But the reasons for this they do not fully know. Maybe, it is so ordered by the will of Eru; while the Re-born they say are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs." I don't know why I was looking for this quote all over Atrabeth and Myths :rolleyes: , it was under my nose.
Gandy was resurrected by Eru, thus boosted and upgraded.
I don't know where you are getting at; if you are second guessing Eru, please provide reasons for doing so. The same if you are actually questioning Tolkien's sincerity in the letters. Or simply state this is your personal opinion and we will leave it at that.

[Gordis]

Gandy was resurrected by Eru, thus boosted and upgraded.
I don't know where you are getting at; if you are second guessing Eru, please provide reasons for doing so. The same if you are actually questioning Tolkien's sincerity in the letters. Or simply state this is your personal opinion and we will leave it at that.

What do you think is my "personal opinion"?
- That Gandald was upgraded? Why, that is the Simple Fact from the LOTR. Compare G the Grey with G the White.
- That he was ressurected by Eru? You yourself filled this thread with quotes that prove exactly that. What in the Letters doesn't support these two statements?

I thought all the fuss in this thread was abou WHERE the upgrade was done: in Valinor or outside the Circles.

But now you start to question the basics, it seems...

[Landroval]

I thought all the fuss in this thread was abou WHERE the upgrade was done: in Valinor or outside the Circles.
Yes, that is what the "fuss" is all about. The letters state it was done outside Ea and not by the valar. If I understand you correctly, you disagree with that, reffering to the resurection of elves and what not. So far, I haven't seen evidence from you that this didn't occur outside the world.

[jammi567]

I think it is time to close this discussion. It is turning in rounds. :(

i totally agree, this disgussion is getting more and more pointless every post. can't you both just except that you're never going to agree with each other.

[Gordis]

i totally agree, this disgussion is getting more and more pointless every post. can't you both just except that you're never going to agree with each other.

I agree with you, Jammi!

And I love your typo "DISGUSSION" :D
Describes it well, I feel :p

[Landroval]

Whatever

[jammi567]

And I love your typo "DISGUSSION" :D
Describes it well, I feel :p

that's actually a spelling mistake! :o

[jammi567]

Another what if to get us off this very boring topic, what if Legalus was an important elf from the sil, who do you think he would be?