Sauron's trips to Sammath Naur

[Gordis]

Sam and Frodo saw Sauron’s road from Barad-dûr to Sammath Naur Out from the Dark Tower’s huge western gate it came over a deep abyss by a vast bridge of iron, and then passing into the plain it ran for a league between two smoking chasms, and so reached a long sloping causeway that led up on to the Mountain’s eastern side. Thence, turning and encircling all its wide girth from south to north, it climbed at last, high in the upper cone, but still far from the reeking summit, to a dark entrance that gazed back east straight to the Window of the Eye in Sauron’s shadow-mantled fortress. Often blocked or destroyed by the tumults of the Mountain’s furnaces, always that road was repaired and cleaned again by the labours of countless orcs.

It seems that Sauron used this road regularly, so he had some business at Sammath Naur. What was he doing there? Was he obliged to go there in person to cause darkness that covered the lands to the West? Was he obliged to go there to make this strong eruption on March 9, the signal for the war, which had been answered by blue lightnings from the Morgul Tower?

If it was the case, then Shagrat's words: "The Eye is busy elsewhere" may have simply meant that Sauron (referred to as "the Eye" by the Orcs) was away from Barad Dur.

So let us see. There is about 50 miles between Barad-Dur and Orodruin: at least half a day hard riding. I don't think Sauron used a Fell Beast, because why then did he need a road maintained in order?

So, Darkness started to pour out of Mordor on March 9. Sauron was probably at Sammath Naur, and also made a signal for Morgul host to leave (It seems he loved dramatic effects: why couldn't he simply set the hour in advance or sent a nazgul?).
Sauron must have stayed there for several days: till March 13. Proof? The nazgul normally were able to send instant messages to Sauron. But they were unable to do so for a good while, most likely due to Sauron's absence.

`No, I don't know,' said Gorbag's voice. `The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to. ...'

'Bad business,' said Gorbag. `See here – our Silent Watchers were uneasy more than two days ago, that I know. But my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day, nor any message sent to Lugbúrz either: owing to the Great Signal going up, and the High Nazgûl going off to the war, and all that. And then they couldn't get Lugbúrz to pay attention for a good while, I'm told.'
`The Eye was busy elsewhere, I suppose,' said Shagrat. `Big things going on away west, they say.'

So, likely Sauron was away from Barad Dur and from his Palantir on March 9-13, thus overlooking Frodo's passage of the Crossroads (March 9), the Muster of Rohan (10), the Ride of the Rohirrim before they entered the Druedain forest (13), Aragorn's ride from Erech with the Army of the Dead (9-13) and the capture of the Fleet at Pelargir (13).

Likely, when he returned to Barad-Dur, he rushed to his Palantir and kept all his attention on Minas Tirith and Denethor and on the Pelennor, disregarding small matters, like a capture of a spy at Ungol. But his being away from Mt. Doom proved perilous, as his Darkness failed on the morning of the Pelennor Battle (March 15). I think, poor Sau hurried immediately to Orodruin again, to make new portion of smoke, and thus missed the approach of Aragorn up Anduin.

Sauron simply had too much on his hands, poor megalomaniac, never trusting his underlings enough... :(

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Another great thread from Gordis. :)


It seems that Sauron used this road regularly, so he had some business at Sammath Naur. What was he doing there? Was he obliged to go there in person to cause darkness that covered the lands to the West? Was he obliged to go there to make this strong eruption on March 9, the signal for the war, which had been answered by blue lightnings from the Morgul Tower?

If it was the case, then Shagrat's words: "The Eye is busy elsewhere" may have simply meant that Sauron (referred to as "the Eye" by the Orcs) was away from Barad Dur.
That makes sense to me. That he would have to go himself to Mt Doom to cause the darkness. His power wasn't fully restored right? So he probably had to do a lot of things 'by hand' so to speak.
So, Darkness started to pour out of Mordor on March 9. Sauron was probably at Sammath Naur, and also made a signal for Morgul host to leave (It seems he loved dramatic effects: why couldn't he simply set the hour in advance or sent a nazgul?).
I think the eruption and the blue lighning was a fear tactic. The old 'break a man's courage and you break the man' type of thing. He so loved that.


Sauron must have stayed there for several days: till March 13. Proof? The nazgul normally were able to send instant messages to Sauron. But they were unable to do so for a good while, most likely due to Sauron's absence.
So, likely Sauron was away from Barad Dur and from his Palantir on March 9-13, thus overlooking Frodo's passage of the Crossroads (March 9), the Muster of Rohan (10), the Ride of the Rohirrim before they entered the Druedain forest (13), Aragorn's ride from Erech with the Army of the Dead (9-13) and the capture of the Fleet at Pelargir (13).
This time line makes sense to my I guess.
Likely, when he returned to Barad-Dur, he rushed to his Palantir and kept all his attention on Minas Tirith and Denethor and on the Pelennor, disregarding small matters, like a capture of a spy at Ungol. But his being away from Mt. Doom proved perilous, as his Darkness failed on the morning of the Pelennor Battle (March 15). I think, poor Sau hurried immediately to Orodruin again, to make new portion of smoke, and thus missed the approach of Aragorn up Anduin.
The one thing that has always bothered me is: Sauron knew the ring was once in the hands of a hobbit and he had to have gotten some news that the prisoner at Ungol was in fact a hobbit. Now wouldn't Sauron, being paranoid and all, think that there was a chance the Ring was in Mordor? Maybe send out a search party for the escaped prisoner? Could he have simply thought the Men of Gondor would using the hobbits like they had once been used for, to spy? The Mouth refers to him(Frodo) later as a spy, but did Sauron really think that? I mean come on. Hobbit had the Ring, hobbit captured at Ungol, hobbit escapes. 1+1+1+paranoid lord= what? I don't know. Maybe I missed something?

[Gordis]

The one thing that has always bothered me is: Sauron knew the ring was once in the hands of a hobbit and he had to have gotten some news that the prisoner at Ungol was in fact a hobbit. Now wouldn't Sauron, being paranoid and all, think that there was a chance the Ring was in Mordor? Maybe send out a search party for the escaped prisoner? Could he have simply thought the Men of Gondor would using the hobbits like they had once been used for, to spy? The Mouth refers to him(Frodo) later as a spy, but did Sauron really think that? I mean come on. Hobbit had the Ring, hobbit captured at Ungol, hobbit escapes. 1+1+1+paranoid lord= what? I don't know. Maybe I missed something?

Sauron didn't get the news that the prisoner WAS A HOBBIT until it was too late.

It seems, that until Frodo was captured, both the nazgul and Sauron were troubled only about some spies, not hobbits: But there's no doubt about it, they're troubled about something. The Nazgûl down below are, by your account; and Lugbúrz is too. Something nearly slipped.'.

The nazgul finally managed to get a message through to Sauron - on the 13 of March. (Curious that the nazgul never thought of sending one of them to find Sauron at Orodruin. Probably no one wanted to come close to the Fiery Mountain ;) ).

Sauron, upon receiving the news, immediately sent a message to Cirith Ungol. (Interesting -how? Telegraph, perhaps :D ). This message is given: `About an hour ago, just before you saw us, a message came: Nazgûl uneasy. Spies feared on Stairs. Double vigilance. Patrol to head of Stairs. I came at once.'
So, initially, the only thing Sauron knew was that some "spies" slipped past Minas Morgul and went up the secret stairs to Ungol. It seems, by the way, that the Witch-King didn't inform Sauron that he sort of felt the presence of the Ring in his valley. :eek: Interesting, eh?

Neither did the nazgul send anyone in pursuit until it was almost too late. I guess, the nazgul gave any intruders, except the short-legged exhausted hobbits :p , time enough to pass Cirith Ungol safely, before they raised an alarm. The hobbits were too slow on the stairs, slower then the nazgul reckoned them to be. That was a slight miscalculation, which almost proved fatal.

But it is not as simple as that, because Sauron also sent Shagrat additional orders:
Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself.
Doesn't it sound like Sauron has made some connection with the Ring? A Ring is mentioned; the possibility of Sauron coming to Ungol in person is also quite revealing. But most of all I love this "to Lugburz only". It meant, in other words, "NOT to Minas Morgul" :rolleyes: (There were two companies patrolling the stairs: one from Ungol, and one from Morgul.) It seems Sauron stopped trusting his nazgul, and got some inkling at last that they were fooling him all along.

But why did he make such a connection? I don't know.

Perhaps he suspected any anomaly, like an unheard-of spy on the Stairs to be connected with the Ring-business?

Or he suspected only those events which caused his nazgul to act strange :eek: to be connected with the Ring?

As for the nazgul, I think their keeping quiet about the passage of the spies by their fortress for several days was a last straw that finally broke Sauron's trust. He started to sum up things: their long search for the Ring in the Vales, their failure in the Shire, and at the Weathertop, and at the Ford, their inability to locate hobbits with the Ring later... :(

Then, it seems, after capturing Frodo, the orcs were too busy fighting over his mithril shirt to send a messenger to Barad-Dur. And when some new lads come, I’ll deal with you: I’ll send you to Shelob.’
`They won’t come, not before you’re dead anyway,’ answered Snaga surlily. ‘I’ve told you twice that Gorbag’s swine got to the gate first, and none of ours got out. Lagduf and Muzgash ran through, but they were shot. I saw it from a window, I tell you. And they were the last.’
‘Then you must go. ...You must go, or I’ll eat you. News must get through to Lugbúrz, or we’ll both be for the Black Pits. Yes, you too. You won’t escape by skulking here.’

So untill the morning of 15, Sauron didn't learn that A HOBBIT was captured on the 13!

[Landroval]

Now wouldn't Sauron, being paranoid and all, think that there was a chance the Ring was in Mordor?
Apparently not; according to the Council of Elrond:
Let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.
...
Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.
...
This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?
It seems Sauron stopped trusting his nazgul, and got some inkling at last that they were fooling him all along.
I disagree:
I do not think [the nazguls] could have attacked [Frodo] with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.

[Gordis]

Oh, yes, I know this quote. It describes the nazgul actions if they faced Frodo wielding the Ring. Sauron had primary control of their wills, while Frodo would only have some secondary control.

And yes, Sauron was able to control the nazgul when he used their Rings to control them. But he couldn't do that all the time.

His only problem was that he couldn't do everything at once: look in the Palantir, control Denethor, control orcs, control Orodruin eruptions, control the nazgul, plan the battles, run Mordor etc. etc.

He was alone to do all that, so once he was set on one thing, he had to let slip the others. And the nazgul must have had a pretty good idea when trey were being watched and when not.

A quote is a good thing, but look at the facts. Why were the orcs ordered to report to Barad-Dur ONLY, and not to Minas Morgul?

[Landroval]

His only problem was that he couldn't do everything at once: look in the Palantir, control Denethor
Denethor was deceived, maybe even corrupted to some degree, but he never fell to Sauron's control. He was too strong for that.
A quote is a good thing, but look at the facts. Why were the orcs ordered to report to Barad-Dur ONLY, and not to Minas Morgul?
Facts? I can't count all the possible explanations. We are talking about the most important item in all Middle-Earth; was there anyone else in Sauron's service who he thought was better prepared to handle a 'ring-in-Mordor' situation than he himself? And what mess would happen if both Sauron and a nazgul would initiate various actions in order to manage the situation? We see how easily orcs slay each other. And the less orcs are involved in the communication process, the better, seeing how treacherous or untrustworthy they are.

[Gordis]

Denethor was deceived, maybe even corrupted to some degree, but he never fell to Sauron's control. He was too strong for that.
Here you are right, I should have used another word, not "control". But still selecting images for Denethor to see took time and concentration, didn't it?

Meanwhile, the nazgul felt free to do what they liked. :p , hobbits were sneaking into Mordor, smoke production in Orodruin decreased dramatically, and orcs fought between themselves.... Poor Sau. :D

[Landroval]

Meanwhile, the nazgul felt free to do what they liked. , hobbits were sneaking into Mordor, smoke production in Orodruin decreased dramatically, and orcs fought between themselves.... Poor Sau.
I wouldn't say it was a problem of too many things to handle; all the pace of the war was dictated by Sauron (less the last part ;)) - but an inherent weaknes in his evil being and therefore in his wisdom too; as a side note, Tolkien states in Notes on motives in the Silmarillion that Saruman became evil and therefore stupid :D.

[The Gaffer]

Could have my timeline messed up, but:

they couldn't get Lugbúrz to pay attention for a good while, I'm told.'
`The Eye was busy elsewhere, I suppose,

I'd always associated this with Aragorn and his confrontation.

[Butterbeer]

Gor:
... His only problem was that he couldn't do everything at once: look in the Palantir, control Denethor, control orcs, control Orodruin eruptions, control the nazgul, plan the battles, run Mordor etc. etc.

He was alone to do all that, so once he was set on one thing, he had to let slip the others...

If only he'd had a wife!

*cough* Galadriel *cough* :D

[Gordis]

Facts? I can't count all the possible explanations. We are talking about the most important item in all Middle-Earth; was there anyone else in Sauron's service who he thought was better prepared to handle a 'ring-in-Mordor' situation than he himself? And what mess would happen if both Sauron and a nazgul would initiate various actions in order to manage the situation? We see how easily orcs slay each other. And the less orcs are involved in the communication process, the better, seeing how treacherous or untrustworthy they are.
The orders Sauron gave Shagrat on March 13, clearly imply that he suspected that spies could be connected with the Ring. Do you agree with it, Landroval?

Don't you think, that the most obvious thing to do was to send one of the nazgul to Ungol immediately to investigate the matter and report to him? Why didn't he do that?

And what if the spy put on the Ring and escaped the orcs? A nazgul was crucial there, much more necessary that screeching over Minas Tirith. :rolleyes:

Why he forbade the orcs to report to Minas Morgul at all?

I say, it was only because he stopped trusting his nazgul.

I wouldn't say it was a problem of too many things to handle; all the pace of the war was dictated by Sauron (less the last part ) - but an inherent weaknes in his evil being and therefore in his wisdom too; as a side note, Tolkien states in Notes on motives in the Silmarillion that Saruman became evil and therefore stupid .
First of all, I am speaking exactly of the days of the war, when Sauron had to start the offensive before he was fully prepared. For instance, he had not bred enough black uruks who could withstand sunshine easily - therefore the need for the Pall of Darkness. It was not only for dramatic effect, it was needed for the orcs to operate. But he miscalculated his own abilities to handle all the crucial things at once. And he really trusted nobody in the end.

Could have my timeline messed up, but: they couldn't get Lugbúrz to pay attention for a good while, I'm told.'
`The Eye was busy elsewhere, I suppose,

I'd always associated this with Aragorn and his confrontation.
No, it is impossible, sorry. The "videoconference :evil: " with Aragorn was on March 6 (Aragorn overtaken by the Dúnedain in the early hours. Théoden sets out from the Hornburg for Harrowdale. Aragorn sets out later.-Tale of years).
Frodo passed Minas Morgul and saw the Great Signal and the Darkness pouring out of Mordor on March 9.
From March 9 to March 13 the Nazgul were unable to send instant messages to Sauron. Aragorn at this time travelled from Erech to Pelargir.

If only he'd had a wife! *cough* Galadriel *cough*
That would have been the end of Middle Earth! :D

[CAB]

Another great thread from Gordis. :)
Seconded

It seems that Sauron used this road regularly, so he had some business at Sammath Naur. What was he doing there? Was he obliged to go there in person to cause darkness that covered the lands to the West? Was he obliged to go there to make this strong eruption on March 9, the signal for the war, which had been answered by blue lightnings from the Morgul Tower?

If it was the case, then Shagrat's words: "The Eye is busy elsewhere" may have simply meant that Sauron (referred to as "the Eye" by the Orcs) was away from Barad Dur.
I think you are right that he went there fairly often. I’m not sure that he would have made a special trip just to make the signal, but going to make the cloud/smoke cover seems reasonable.

Orodruin seems to hold some significance that I don’t really understand. Why was this the only place in Middle Earth where the Ring could be destroyed? It doesn’t seem to be simply a matter of high temperatures. After a little research I found that very hot lava may reach about 1250 degrees C, while iron melts at 1535 C. So, the inhabitants of Middle Earth could probably produce higher temperatures than the volcano.

I would guess that after making the One, Sauron’s power was greatest at and somewhat tied to this place, just like the Ring’s was. They were basically two parts of the same being after all. Perhaps when Sauron needed his full strength, he went to Orodruin.

The one thing that has always bothered me is: Sauron knew the ring was once in the hands of a hobbit and he had to have gotten some news that the prisoner at Ungol was in fact a hobbit. Now wouldn't Sauron, being paranoid and all, think that there was a chance the Ring was in Mordor? Maybe send out a search party for the escaped prisoner? Could he have simply thought the Men of Gondor would using the hobbits like they had once been used for, to spy? The Mouth refers to him(Frodo) later as a spy, but did Sauron really think that? I mean come on. Hobbit had the Ring, hobbit captured at Ungol, hobbit escapes. 1+1+1+paranoid lord= what? I don't know. Maybe I missed something?
I agree with Landroval here. Sauron never saw this possibility until he was aware of Frodo standing at the Cracks of Doom. Gordis, you pointed out that Sauron wasn’t made aware that the spy was a Hobbit until the 15th, but this would allow plenty of time to close off the approach to Orodruin if Sauron suspected that they may be trying to destroy the Ring.

Actually, I don’t think that Sauron believed that there was much of a chance that a Hobbit would still be holding the Ring after it got to Rivendell. He judged people by desire for power. He knew that Gandalf (who had recently questioned Gollum, and so could be expected to know about the Ring) was present at Rivendell. So were Elrond and Glorfindel. Sauron probably thought that one of these people (most likely Gandalf) had taken possession of the Ring.


Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself.
I could be mistaken, but I don’t think these were special orders regarding these particular spies. These sound like standing orders to me. The words “or comes Himself” sound similar to “or the world end” in the oath that one takes when becoming a knight of Gondor. These words refer to possibilities that logically have to be mentioned, but aren’t likely to happen.

First of all, I am speaking exactly of the days of the war, when Sauron had to start the offensive before he was fully prepared. For instance, he had not bred enough black uruks who could withstand sunshine easily - therefore the need for the Pall of Darkness. It was not only for dramatic effect, it was needed for the orcs to operate. But he miscalculated his own abilities to handle all the crucial things at once. And he really trusted nobody in the end.
I agree. He couldn’t really handle everything himself, no matter how hard he tried. I can’t really blame him for not trusting his underlings. Look at who was working for him. While I don’t think he fully trusted the Nazgul, it seems that he wasn’t really concerned about what they may have done if they obtained the Ring. He had sent them to capture it earlier after all.

[Landroval]

I disagree that Sauron didn't trust the nazguls; in Unfinished Tales, it is stated that:
They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master

[Gordis]

I disagree that Sauron didn't trust the nazguls; in Unfinished Tales, it is stated that:
You misunderstood me, it seems. :) Sauron did trust the nazgul to bring him the Ring, IF and WHEN they obtained it. And he was right. They couldn't claim it, as they were slaves to the Nine Rings that Sauron himself held. I believe he could kill anyone of them anytime by destroying the corresponding Ring.

But, what the nazgul were doing, was trying to avoid obtaining it, actually avoid any contact with the Ring. Once they felt it, they headed double quick in the opposite direction. This Sauron couldn't understand for a long time. He really had difficulty understanding people NOT wanting his Ring. :D CAB is right: Sauron never considered that anyone would want to destroy the Ring, until he was aware of Frodo standing at the Cracks of Doom.

There is a good thread by Olmer about the Hunt for the Ring. I bumped it for you.http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=11425&page=1&pp=20

[Gordis]

Orodruin seems to hold some significance that I don’t really understand. Why was this the only place in Middle Earth where the Ring could be destroyed? It doesn’t seem to be simply a matter of high temperatures. After a little research I found that very hot lava may reach about 1250 degrees C, while iron melts at 1535 C. So, the inhabitants of Middle Earth could probably produce higher temperatures than the volcano.
Really? I always thought that the temperature within a volcano was much higher than in any forge... :confused:
Perhaps, Tolkien thought so as well? :)

IMHO, the reason Gandalf gives is the temperature: no forge, hardly dragon fire, only Orodruin.

I would guess that after making the One, Sauron’s power was greatest at and somewhat tied to this place, just like the Ring’s was. They were basically two parts of the same being after all. Perhaps when Sauron needed his full strength, he went to Orodruin.
I agree. It is a very clever observation. Perhaps it answers the much debated question why Sauron, escaping the Siege of Barad-Dur made his way to the Mountain...

Gordis, you pointed out that Sauron wasn’t made aware that the spy was a Hobbit until the 15th, but this would allow plenty of time to close off the approach to Orodruin if Sauron suspected that they may be trying to destroy the Ring. Actually, I don’t think that Sauron believed that there was much of a chance that a Hobbit would still be holding the Ring after it got to Rivendell. He judged people by desire for power. He knew that Gandalf (who had recently questioned Gollum, and so could be expected to know about the Ring) was present at Rivendell. So were Elrond and Glorfindel. Sauron probably thought that one of these people (most likely Gandalf) had taken possession of the Ring.

Yes I see what you mean. It makes sense. Sauron heard of a hobbit at Ungol, but still didn't connect him with the Ring or didn't guess his destination.

I could be mistaken, but I don’t think these were special orders regarding these particular spies. These sound like standing orders to me.
Maybe you are right. When then were they given? Perhaps a long time ago - in 2951 or something.

Then, could this mention of "Rings" refer to the Three and not to the One? :eek: Perhaps he knew who had the third Ring (Galadriel and Elrond were easy to guess). Saruman knew that Gandalf had Narya, and likely he told that to Sauron. So, was he suspecting that Gandalf might want to come to Mordor to spy?
Also, note "trinkets". Maybe, it was the way to depict other power objects that a powerful spy was likely to possess, like Phial of Galadriel. He would need something to get by the Silent Watchers and other possible traps.

[CAB]

Really? I always thought that the temperature within a volcano was much higher than in any forge... :confused:
Perhaps, Tolkien thought so as well? :)
I wasn’t sure myself, so I looked it up. It is quite possible that Tolkien didn’t know either. He was just as human as you or I. Also he didn’t have those convenient internet search engines that we have.

IMHO, the reason Gandalf gives is the temperature: no forge, hardly dragon fire, only Orodruin.
Could be. My feelings are that heat alone could be enough, but that this amount of heat couldn’t be generated in Middle Earth by Dwarves, Elves, Dragons,...or Orodruin. I believe that the volcano could destroy the Ring because of the combination of great heat and the power involved with the Ring’s creation. I don’t know how to describe the power part because I don’t really understand it. To me, it seems to be related to the fact that Sauron and the Ring are strongest while at Orodruin. Maybe the volcano is actually tied into their existence somehow. It did act violently after the Ring's/Sauron's destruction.

Then, could this mention of "Rings" refer to the Three and not to the One? :eek: Perhaps he knew who had the third Ring (Galadriel and Elrond were easy to guess). Saruman knew that Gandalf had Narya, and likely he told that to Sauron. So, was he suspecting that Gandalf might want to come to Mordor to spy?
Yes, Gandalf would be the right choice I think. He has been known to spy on Sauron before.

[Gordis]

I wasn’t sure myself, so I looked it up. It is quite possible that Tolkien didn’t know either. He was just as human as you or I. Also he didn’t have those convenient internet search engines that we have.

Yes it is quite likely that Tolkien was not an expert in volcanology. There was a thread here about "pyroclactic flow" or something like that, where geologists pointed out that there was no way that Frofdo and Sam could have remained alive...


Could be. My feelings are that heat alone could be enough, but that this amount of heat couldn’t be generated in Middle Earth by Dwarves, Elves, Dragons,...or Orodruin. I believe that the volcano could destroy the Ring because of the combination of great heat and the power involved with the Ring’s creation. I don’t know how to describe the power part because I don’t really understand it. To me, it seems to be related to the fact that Sauron and the Ring are strongest while at Orodruin. Maybe the volcano is actually tied into their existence somehow. It did act violently after the Ring's/Sauron's destruction.
I agree.


About standing orders to Shagrat. Isn't it strange that Gorbag from Minas Morgul seemingly had no such orders? After all BOTH fortresses guarded the Pass.

[CAB]

About standing orders to Shagrat. Isn't it strange that Gorbag from Minas Morgul seemingly had no such orders? After all BOTH fortresses guarded the Pass.
It does seem a bit strange. Maybe the best answer is that only captains (and ranks above) were aware of this order. Wasn’t Shagrat a higher rank than Gorbag? Their subordinates would bring the prisoners to the captains first, as unharmed as possible. That part at least was probably known to every soldier in Mordor. Only the higher ranks needed to know what should happen after that.

[Gordis]

Makes sense.
:)
Minas Morgul was more or less autonomous, had its own livery for instance and its own banners. So probably the standing orders there were different - they had to report to the Morgul Lord, not Sauron.

[CAB]

Minas Morgul was more or less autonomous, had its own livery for instance and its own banners. So probably the standing orders there were different - they had to report to the Morgul Lord, not Sauron.
You are probably right. Now that I think about it, this is more evidence that the Nazgul had some will of their own. Minas Morgul’s troops having their own banners, etc. and especially autonomy, sounds like an attempt to keep the Witch King happy to me. If he was no more than Sauron’s puppet, then why not dress and treat the Morgul Orcs like the rest of those in Mordor?

[Gordis]

You are probably right. Now that I think about it, this is more evidence that the Nazgul had some will of their own. Minas Morgul’s troops having their own banners, etc. and especially autonomy, sounds like an attempt to keep the Witch King happy to me. If he was no more than Sauron’s puppet, then why not dress and treat the Morgul Orcs like the rest of those in Mordor?

Sure. I also think he was promised Gondor to rule, much like the Mouth was promised Isengard. Sauron had to keep his underlings happy, aspecially someone as powerful as the Witch-King.

I think people tend to give to much credit to the UT quote "had no will of their own". I think it applies only to the very specific situation, their being UNABLE TO CLAIM THE RING for themselves. That is all.
From the same chapter in UT it is evident that it was the WK who directed the Search for the Ring in the Vales, decided where to go, and when to return. And the following passage in LOTR leaves no doubts that it was the WK, not Sauron who devised and directed the assault on Minas Tirith:. It was no brigand or orc-chieftain that ordered the assault upon the Lord of Mordor’s greatest foe. A power and mind of malice guided it. .... He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons.

[Landroval]

I think people tend to give to much credit to the UT quote "had no will of their own". I think it applies only to the very specific situation, their being UNABLE TO CLAIM THE RING for themselves. That is all.
I disagree; here is what Tolkien said in letter #246:
"In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force."

[Gordis]

Again, Landroval, this quote applies to a specific situation, when (and IF) Galadriel or Elrond CLAIMED THE ONE RING.

Then and only then they will have "absolutely subservient generals".

I have no doubt, that when Sauron had the One, and the Nazgul wore their Rings ( back in the Second Age) they were subservient.

But in the Third Age Sauron had no Ring.

It seems the interaction between the wielder of the Nine Rings (Sauron) and the wraiths that formerly had these rings, but had them no more, was different. What it was like exactly we are not told, save that the wraiths would bring the One to Sauron if they find it and that he had primary control over their wills.

Anyway, the quote you gave in your last post doesn't apply to their situation in the Third Age.

[CAB]

I disagree; here is what Tolkien said in letter #246:
"In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force."
I guess it depends on what you mean by “absolutely subservient”. This can probably be taken too literally. I would think that the Nazgul would never openly disobey Sauron. This doesn’t mean that they had no free will though. This question came up not too long ago. Here is what I posted.
I wanted to give my opinion concerning one other matter which was part of the earlier discussions; the extent of Sauron’s control of the Nazgul. I think a good comparison is the description of Saruman’s voice. When the voice of Saruman (or comparatively Sauron’s will) was directed at someone, that person found it very difficult to resist (in the case of Sauron/Nazgul probably all but impossible), but when the voice/will was turned elsewhere the person/Nazgul recovered some free will. In my opinion, Sauron couldn’t constantly be controlling the Nazgul this way. It is probable that exerting full control over even one Nazgul took a great deal of concentration. Sauron had other things to think about. I think most of the time Sauron controlled the Nazgul just as he controlled his other servants, primarily through fear.
There is a lot of evidence that the Nazgul could think for themselves. My personal favorite is the fact that Sauron threatened the Nazgul during the hunt for the Ring. There is absolutely no reason to threaten someone who is completely obedient to your will. As Olmer correctly pointed out, this is basically the same as threatening your car if it doesn’t run right.

[Gordis]

I agree with you, CAB.

Sauron did have difficulty attending to many things at once.
He couldn't even watch his borders effectively:
Gollum: `Hobbits must see, must try to understand. He does not expect attack that way. His Eye is all round, but it attends more to some places than to others. He can't see everything all at once, not yet.

He really couldn't control his nazgul 24x7, without the One Ring. Even to control orcs, he needed to concentrate on them. Once his attention wavered, they felt steerless:

From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten.

[CAB]

He really couldn't control his nazgul 24x7, without the One Ring. Even to control orcs, he needed to concentrate on them. Once his attention wavered, they felt steerless:
I don’t know if I am contradicting you or not Gordis, but I don’t think Sauron could control the Nazgul 24/7 even with the One Ring. It would seem that even Aule couldn’t do this with the first Dwarves, and he was a great Vala who (at this time at least) probably had a lot less on his mind than Sauron did.

[Gordis]

I don’t know if I am contradicting you or not Gordis, but I don’t think Sauron could control the Nazgul 24/7 even with the One Ring. It would seem that even Aule couldn’t do this with the first Dwarves, and he was a great Vala who (at this time at least) probably had a lot less on his mind than Sauron did.
I am not sure myself how it has been when Sauron had the One and the Nazgul wore their Rings.
Perhaps he knew their thoughts at all times, at least when they were thinking something bad. On the other hand, running the thoughts of 9 different people through your head at all times might drive even a Maia mad. :D

The only evidence is that when Sauron put on the One and intoned the Ring-Spell, all those wearing the other rings heard him immediately, though he didn't mean to broadcast.

Also Galadriel says that if Sauron regained the One, all the thoughts of the Wielders of the Three will be laid bare to him, or something like that.

[CAB]

Also Galadriel says that if Sauron regained the One, all the thoughts of the Wielders of the Three will be laid bare to him, or something like that.
I took that to mean that they would be forced to tell all their thoughts when he questioned them directly (via the Ring, of course), but I could certainly be mistaken.

Perhaps he knew their thoughts at all times, at least when they were thinking something bad. On the other hand, running the thoughts of 9 different people through your head at all times might drive even a Maia mad. :D
If nine is bad, how about nineteen, and nineteen immortals at that. I suppose that would have been the original intention. Seems like a bit much to me, even for Sauron.

[Alcuin]

It sounds as if Sauron could do several things with the minds and wills of those who wore the Rings of Power while he was in possession of the One Ring. He knew whatever they knew – not automatically, perhaps, or as if their knowledge were his knowledge, but maybe in the sense of being able to query them: they could hide nothing, they would immediately reveal whatever they hoped to keep hidden. They would be in communication with him and his powerful, evil will through their rings.

This brings up the second matter, Sauron’s control of the will of those who wore the Rings of Power. He easily dominated the nine Men to whom he gave Rings of Power: they succumbed quickly if they were basically evil and later if they were basically good; but in the way the Eldar and the Maiar experienced time, it was quick. In the end, all nine Men were evil because they were polluted with the mind and will of Sauron, which overwhelmed their own individual wills.

The Nine Ringwraiths were not automatons in any way, in my view. But over time, I think each was less and less in possession of his wants and desires, and more and more driven by the wants and desires of Sauron. It does not seem that their personalities were entirely submerged into Sauron’s, but dominated by Sauron’s. They maintained idiosyncrasies and their own personal abilities, magnified and distorted as they might have been by the Rings. But they were not able to do things against Sauron’s goals, they were unable to resist him any longer, and they would follow his instructions to the best of their abilities as they understood what goal he had in mind. For instance, if Sauron told him to take a military objective, a Nazgûl would develop his own plan of attack, gather resources to accomplish it, and change his plans as the situation dictated. But everything would be aimed at accomplishing the goal Sauron had set forth for him.

The Dwarves who bore the Seven Rings were more resistant to these effects. Whether Sauron could read their thoughts and the secrets of their hearts I cannot say; but Tolkien says that he could not dominate their wills in the way that he did Mortals. The Rings inflamed their greed and jealousy, however, and this no doubt worked to his advantage by weakening the Dwarvish kingdoms and their social fabric. (After all, who wants to live under the rule of a greedy, jealous, megalomaniac and autocratic king who will start a war, perhaps with other Dwarves, for no good reason, for instance? Or who takes from his people a greater and greater share of the wealth of the kingdom? Insofar as those things happened, they would be destructive to the Dwarvish city-states and to the societies that built them.)

A final note. In “The Hunt for the Ring,” several readers have noticed (in other forums) that the Ringwraiths did not realize that Sauron wanted them to search the west side of the Misty Mountains. I must point out that Sauron was not in possession of the One Ring, and it is likely that the Nine were not wearing their Rings, either, if Sauron “held them” in his own physical possession. They were clearly not in mental communication with him in those conditions, or likely with one another, except by normal means: speaking, writing, and so forth.

[CAB]

I agree with most of what you are saying Alcuin, but not all. I believe that the Nazgul retained more of their personal desires than what you seem to be saying. You might consider looking at Olmer’s thread on this subject. It is a little “uncanon-ish” (alright, a lot uncanon-ish), but there are some very good points made. In defense of the Ringwraith (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=11425)

If the Nazgul kept any of their former personalities, then they probably kept their desire for free choice / self-rule. This is probably a pretty basic want for almost any person, but even more so for those who are (or were) great leaders.

Again, there is the fact that Sauron threatened the Nazgul during the hunt for the Ring. Why threaten those who are following your will to the best of their abilities? Maybe Sauron wasn’t the most reasonable being, but this seems like a pointless gesture for someone with his intelligence to make.

[Alcuin]

Why threaten those who are following your will to the best of their abilities?I don’t understand it, but I do know the psychology definitely exists. You can read any local newspaper or check the transcripts at any local courthouse to find examples of abusive spouses and parents. In many cases – not all, or even most, perhaps, but many – the person who received the raw end of the deal was actually trying to do what the abuser wanted, or even trying to please him/her. I don’t understand the thinking behind it, but it does happen.

Modern Western society generally condemns and punishes such people; and even centuries ago, it was considered less than desirable behavior. Sounds like it might be appropriate for Sauron.

[Landroval]

Again, Landroval, this quote applies to a specific situation, when (and IF) Galadriel or Elrond CLAIMED THE ONE RING.

Then and only then they will have "absolutely subservient generals".
You are misreading the quote; Tolkien parallels what they would do with what Sauron is actually doing.
I have no doubt, that when Sauron had the One, and the Nazgul wore their Rings ( back in the Second Age) they were subservient.
All the refferences I gave concerning the faithfulness of the nazgul reffer only to the third age.
Anyway, the quote you gave in your last post doesn't apply to their situation in the Third Age.
And that is because...?

[Gordis]

Anyway, the quote you gave in your last post doesn't apply to their situation in the Third Age.

And that is because...?

Here is the quote in question:
letter #246:
"In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force."

This is the situation when E or G had the Ring.Sauron had no ring in the Third Age. So it there are any parallels, it would be with Sauron in the Second Age.

Edit: by the way, Landroval, how do you interpret "absolutely subservient" and more importantly "had no will of their own"?

[Landroval]

"In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron"
Though I am not a native speaker, I would say this clearly reffers to "nowadays" Sauron.
by the way, Landroval, how do you interpret "absolutely subservient" and more importantly "had no will of their own"?
I don't make too much of a fuss about it; the only part where I disagree with you is that Sauron stopped at any one time trusting them, or that, as you said, they were "fooling him all along".

[Gordis]

I see. You will believe such things ONLY if you find a letter where Tolkien said so himself, it seems.

But relying on the Letters so much, makes you disregard the facts that we can obtain from the published LOTR text, which Tolkien himself, in later writings tried to change as little as possible, only finding various "interpretations" of the things already there.

The facts in the Hunt for the Ring in LOTR and UT couldn't be explained if we take some statements (like utterly subservient) at face value. It doesn't mean that Tolkien himself necessarily thought of the same explanation or of another possible explanation before us. Though, who knows... more letters may be found one day.

[CAB]

Letter #246
I do not think [the nazguls] could have attacked [Frodo] with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.


Letter #246:
"In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force."
This is a contradiction in the Letters, indeed within the same letter. Either Sauron had primary control (which implies that someone or something else also had some control) or he had total control (absolutely subservient). Which one is right? I think it is dangerous to put too much weight on a single statement when there is so much other (often contradictory) evidence.

[Gordis]

Good point, CAB.

Also, note that in this situation at Sammath Naur, both Frodo with the One and Sauron with the Nine are intent on the nazgul, trying to gain control. So the third possible factor: their own free will is not even considered.

[Landroval]

This is a contradiction in the Letters, indeed within the same letter.
Contradiction between two ideas means that one idea denies the other; you are misapplying the label.
Either Sauron had primary control (which implies that someone or something else also had some control) or he had total control (absolutely subservient).
I disagree with that logic."which implies that someone or something else also had some control" - there is no such logical necessary implication; Sauron may just as well be the wielder of the rest of the control. Control and subserviency are not correlated as you imply, the truth value of one doesn't imply the truth value of the other. One can have primary control over another person, but that other person may or may not be subservient. Reversely, one can be subservient to another person, but that other person may or may not exert some control.
What the "primary control" means, at minimum, is that whenever Sauron wanted, he could dictate to the nazguls; the "absolute subserviency" means that the nazgul would not do anything they know is counter to Sauron's will, regardless whether Sauron attempts to control them or not at that particular moment.
This is nitpicking; as I stated, what I wanted to counter was Gordis' idea that the nazguls were fooling around and that Sauron stopped trusting them. There is no such direct statement (quite the contrary) and the evidences invoked are circumstancial at best, do not imply them, and have much better explanations.

[Gordis]

what I wanted to counter was Gordis' idea that the nazguls were fooling around and that Sauron stopped trusting them. There is no such direct statement (quite the contrary) and the evidences invoked are circumstancial at best, do not imply them, and have much better explanations.
Yes the evidence is circumstantial. But I would like to see "much better" explanations to the facts given.

[CAB]

I disagree with that logic."which implies that someone or something else also had some control" - there is no such logical necessary implication; Sauron may just as well be the wielder of the rest of the control.
Primary control means that there must be (at least) secondary control. That is what primary means. If Sauron also had the remaining control, then why separate it into primary, secondary, etc.?
Control and subserviency are not correlated as you imply, the truth value of one doesn't imply the truth value of the other.
I agree that control and subserviency aren’t exactly the same thing. However, if someone is subservient to you, then you control that person. If someone is absolutely subservient to you then you would essentially have absolute control of that person. Yet the quote says the Nazgul were absolutely subservient to Sauron, but he had only primary control of them.

One can have primary control over another person, but that other person may or may not be subservient.
Exactly.

Reversely, one can be subservient to another person, but that other person may or may not exert some control.
True, that person may not exert the control, but that person would certainly possess it.

What the "primary control" means, at minimum, is that whenever Sauron wanted, he could dictate to the nazguls; the "absolute subserviency" means that the nazgul would not do anything they know is counter to Sauron's will, regardless whether Sauron attempts to control them or not at that particular moment.
Yes, I would say that Sauron definitely had and used “primary control”, but I don’t see “absolute subserviency”, just subserviency.

[Landroval]

Yers the evidence is circumstantial.
We have no single refference where the nazgul act against Sauron's will; we have at least two refference concerning the obedience relation between them. I guess we have different understandings of the word.
But I would like to see "much better" explanations to the facts given.
Please read post no 6.
Yet the quote says the Nazgul were absolutely subservient to Sauron, but he had only primary control of them.
Wrong, this is the weak point in your argument. It never says "only", it is strictly your adition, and taken in the context of the letter and not only, this addition is unwarranted.

[CAB]

Wrong, this is the weak point in your argument. It never says "only", it is strictly your adition, and taken in the context of the letter and not only, this addition is unwarranted.
Of course "only" is my addition. If Tolkien had added it, then he would have been calling attention to the (admittedly, minor) logical mistake he made in this letter, a mistake I don’t think he was aware of. If this is the weak point in my argument, then I guess I don't have any argument at all, because my point is based on this inconsistency. If Tolkien could make this kind of (again, minor) mistake within the confines of one letter (of course he could, he was human), then how can we expect there to be perfect consistency within all his many writings? We can't, that is abundantly clear. If there is inconsistency within his writings, then how can we cling to one statement and claim that it is the absolute truth?

I'll say this; I personally doubt that Sauron much distrusted the Nazgul. I think that when he had either the One Ring or the Nine Rings, they were pretty much in his grasp (but not completely, 100% of the time). There is evidence to the contrary however. My problem with this evidence (the evidence regarding their “refusal” to capture the Ring, at least) is that it doesn’t seem to show any clear intent by the Nazgul. What was their plan? Not taking the Ring would help to keep it from Sauron, but it really doesn’t do much for the Nazgul, except maybe prolong some kind of hope. I also wonder if they would have expected the Wise to try to destroy the Ring. Maybe, maybe not. I don’t have a strong opinion concerning the Nazguls’ attempts/non-attempts to capture the Ring. Their actions seem strange whether looked at from a “somewhat free” or “entirely subservient” point of view.

[Landroval]

If this is the weak point in my argument, then I guess I don't have any argument at all, because my point is based on this inconsistency.
If I understand you correctly, you are basically saying this is a non-issue; if Tolkien had stated "only", we could be talking about something - but now, we can’t start with a hypothesis that is not true and then draw any supportable conclusions from it.

But even if he did state things as you did, we still can't infer that the "subserviency" premise is false, because we don't know the extent of "primary" (if it means 99.9999% control, that would make it a non-issue again).

[Gordis]

But even if he did state things as you did, we still can't infer that the "subserviency" premise is false, because we don't know the extent of "primary" (if it means 99.9999% control, that would make it a non-issue again).
Oh, but we DO know (from the same letter # 246) that the extent of the primary control was far below 99.999%!

The secondary control that Frodo, wielding the Ring, would have over the nazgul was strong enough to stop them from attacking him by force! They would have "shown servility" etc. Do you REALLY believe it is 0.001% control???

Really, Landroval, I can't agree with your point.

[CAB]

If I understand you correctly, you are basically saying this is a non-issue; if Tolkien had stated "only", we could be talking about something - but now, we can’t start with a hypothesis that is not true and then draw any supportable conclusions from it.
No, that wasn't what I was saying. But that's ok. I will just let it go.

[Landroval]

The secondary control that Frodo, wielding the Ring, would have over the nazgul was strong enough to stop them from attacking him by force!
Let's look again at the passage:
Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?
Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt - saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible.
As it is obvious, the reason for not attacking him _inside_ the crack of doom was that they were listening to Sauron.
I have a nasty feeling we will be nitpicking about this for a looong time.

EDIT: well, I didn't want to restart this thing all over again, so I just edited my post:
At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.

[Gordis]

I have a nasty feeling we will be nitpicking about this for a looong time.
Landroval, there might have indeed be a long round of nitpicking over this letter, if I were up to it. I could have bolded other parts of the quote:
I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive
-this one, for instance, or I could have quoted the passage about "their religious cult" - you see I came to know it by heart. :rolleyes:

ONLY, I find it unbearably dull. :(

So let us agree that we disagree on all points and leave it at that.

[Scrooge]

I do believe there is a reason Sauron could have expected that a Ring-bearer might have been creeping across Cirith Ungol into Mordor that had nothing to do with destroying the Ring: assassination. He assumed that no one would desire to destroy it. He assumed one of the great would acquire it and seek to subjugate the world. He had, in Mordor, a pre-fabbed army trained and equipped for the destruction of Minas Tirith. Gandalf (for example) could plan to sneak into Mordor (even without the Ring, I feel he would have been willing to face Shelob), sneak into Barad-Dur, *splortch* Sauron, and wrest control of the troops? I believe he would have failed, but it seems reasonable to think Sauron could have planned for that as a contingency. Throughout the tale we are told he believes one of the great will acquire the ring and seek to use it, and that does not necessarily mean using it in a pitched battle.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Could someone have mastered The One Ring and used it to overthrow Sauron or not? Seems to me, if not, then he had nothing to fear. Yet, he was clearly afraid that someone would do exactly that. Why? I've never heard an explanation that satisfies me on this point.

[Gordis]

DPR, it is all in the letter 246.
One "of equal stature", = Gandalf could have mastered the Ring.
Tolkien is uncertain about Elrond and Galadriel.
Men - no.
(I am quoting from memory);)

[Alcuin]

From the end of Letter 246:

…only Gandalf [with the Ring] might be expected to master [Sauron] – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order [i.e., a Maia], an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. … One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf … was placed in [in confrontation alone and unaided with Sauron]. It would be a delicate balance. On one side was the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession… If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him forever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. …

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. …

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

So why did he care when he thought Aragorn had it? Or did he think Gandalf had it and Aragorn was simply his puppet to be placed on Gondor's throne? I've read the letter, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense in light of Sauron's published behavior. It doesn't feel right to me. If The Ring in the hands of anyone would have been easily returned to Sauron when they met face to face, why would Sauron care who had it or what he was doing with it?

Say Aragorn had it and learned to wield it. He becomes a great despot and takes over the world. Then he meets Sauron:

Sauron: Give me the ring, boy.
Aragorn: Ok. Here.
Sauron: Bwahahahaha! My work here is done.

:confused:

What am I missing here?

[Gordis]

So why did he care when he thought Aragorn had it? Or did he think Gandalf had it and Aragorn was simply his puppet to be placed on Gondor's throne? I've read the letter, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense in light of Sauron's published behavior. It doesn't feel right to me. If The Ring in the hands of anyone would have been easily returned to Sauron when they met face to face, why would Sauron care who had it or what he was doing with it?

Say Aragorn had it and learned to wield it. He becomes a great despot and takes over the world. Then he meets Sauron:

Sauron: Give me the ring, boy.
Aragorn: Ok. Here.
Sauron: Bwahahahaha! My work here is done.

:confused:

What am I missing here?

I guess it stands only in one-to one confrontation. But if Aragorn brings a huge army... After all Sauron had been once vanquished by Elendil and Gil-Galad

[CAB]

So why did he care when he thought Aragorn had it? Or did he think Gandalf had it and Aragorn was simply his puppet to be placed on Gondor's throne? I've read the letter, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense in light of Sauron's published behavior. It doesn't feel right to me. If The Ring in the hands of anyone would have been easily returned to Sauron when they met face to face, why would Sauron care who had it or what he was doing with it?

Say Aragorn had it and learned to wield it. He becomes a great despot and takes over the world. Then he meets Sauron:

Sauron: Give me the ring, boy.
Aragorn: Ok. Here.
Sauron: Bwahahahaha! My work here is done.

:confused:

What am I missing here?
Just because Tolkien knew that Sauron couldn't lose doesn't mean that Sauron himself knew.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Just because Tolkien knew that Sauron couldn't lose doesn't mean that Sauron himself knew.

That is an excellent point.