Middle-Earth is Dark Age Europe

[GreyMouser]

OK, I try and incite with this idea every now and then.

It should be obvious to everyone that Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age is modelled on Europe circa 900 AD

The Empire has been divided into two; the Western/Northern half has fallen, leaving a desolate waste of forests and marshes where law and order have collapsed, outlaws and worse roam freely, and only a few outposts of an older civilisation remain.
Orcs, trolls= Vikings, Magyars, local marauders
Rivendell, Lorien, Shire, Bree= monasteries and scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome- from a British POV, ties in with Arthur.

Gondor, the Eastern/Southern half of the Empire had expanded and reached new heights of glory, only to fall back under the assaults from the East.

Gondor= Byzantium, Mordor = Islam

PLEASE NOTE!!!!- I am not saying that Tolkien thought Muslims were Evil or Servants of the Dark Lord. Just that his preoccupation with early Medieval times led him to project a vision that very strongly tracks Europe after the Fall of Rome, where Christendom was under attack from a powerful enemy from the South/East

[littleadanel]

Orcs, trolls= Vikings, Magyars, local marauders

Am proud of myself. :D

[Sam]

Interesting point of veiw GreyMouser.
I've never really thought of it that way. But now that you mention it, it does fit together alomost perfectly. But what would symbolize the city of Rome itself?

[sun-star]

Hmm, very interesting. It wouldn't be a surprise at all if Tolkien was influenced by his knowledge of this period. In the interests of historical accuracy, however, I have to nitpick ;)

It should be obvious to everyone that Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age is modelled on Europe circa 900 AD

The Empire has been divided into two; the Western/Northern half has fallen, leaving a desolate waste of forests and marshes where law and order have collapsed, outlaws and worse roam freely, and only a few outposts of an older civilisation remain.
Orcs, trolls= Vikings, Magyars, local marauders
Rivendell, Lorien, Shire, Bree= monasteries and scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome- from a British POV, ties in with Arthur.

The description you give here, especially of the British Isles, is much more applicable to the 5th century than to the 10th. The Romans left at the beginning of the 400s, and by 900, Anglo-Saxon England was a developed civilisation, not "scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome". Law and order had been restored (the first Anglo-Saxon king to issue a law code was Ethelbert of Kent in the 7th century), the kings of Wessex were exerting authority over a considerable part of England (which was beginning to be called England for the first time), and literature and Christian culture were both flourishing. I know you're talking about Europe as a whole, but as far as England goes, the 10th century is the wrong period to choose.

Arthur also fits better into the earlier timescale, though fictional characters are always flexible when it comes to dates :D

[GreyMouser]

Hmm, very interesting. It wouldn't be a surprise at all if Tolkien was influenced by his knowledge of this period. In the interests of historical accuracy, however, I have to nitpick ;)



The description you give here, especially of the British Isles, is much more applicable to the 5th century than to the 10th. The Romans left at the beginning of the 400s, and by 900, Anglo-Saxon England was a developed civilisation, not "scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome". Law and order had been restored (the first Anglo-Saxon king to issue a law code was Ethelbert of Kent in the 7th century), the kings of Wessex were exerting authority over a considerable part of England (which was beginning to be called England for the first time), and literature and Christian culture were both flourishing. I know you're talking about Europe as a whole, but as far as England goes, the 10th century is the wrong period to choose.

Arthur also fits better into the earlier timescale, though fictional characters are always flexible when it comes to dates :D

Yep, you're right- was being careless with my dates- in fact 900 would probably be a bit late for the Continent too- things were settling down by then and the foundations of the High Middle Ages were being laid.

So shove it back to 500-600.

Sam- hmmm... just write Rome out of the picture and chalk it up to Tolkien's Northern bias
:)

[Earniel]

Sam- hmmm... just write Rome out of the picture and chalk it up to Tolkien's Northern bias :)
Rome could be Fornost, perhaps?

[Gordis]

A very interesting thread!

I think Tolkien was influenced by the European history, yes by Arthurian legend, and Rome, and Byzantium, but also Tolkien himself likened Gondor and Arnor to the Upper and Lower Egypt (sorry, I can't find the exact quote).

I don't think we can expect him to retell the Middle Ages history in the right chronological order, though.
While Aragorn is somewhat like Arthur (6th century?) then the division of Arnor is influenced by the division of the Karolingean Empire (9th century?), and Numenor story by the legend of Atlantis (something :confused: BC). And the Shire is like 18-19 century England...

[GreyMouser]

A very interesting thread!

I think Tolkien was influenced by the European history, yes by Arthurian legend, and Rome, and Byzantium, but also Tolkien himself likened Gondor and Arnor to the Upper and Lower Egypt (sorry, I can't find the exact quote).

I don't think we can expect him to retell the Middle Ages history in the right chronological order, though.
While Aragorn is somewhat like Arthur (6th century?) then the division of Arnor is influenced by the division of the Karolingean Empire (9th century?), and Numenor story by the legend of Atlantis (something :confused: BC). And the Shire is like 18-19 century England...

I'm not saying it exactly tracks what happened- that would be (Horror!) allegory. And the history is certainly different- a case of convergent evolution.
More the general setting- in Arnor, a wilderness that has reclaimed former settled lands, populated with bans of marauders; Gondor, experiencing a reflorescence (that would make Numenor the stand-in for Rome; as I said the back-story is different), but then waning under pressure from the East.

As for the settled Anglo-Saxons, dare one suggest...Rohan?- (scurries quickly for shelter)

Of course modern Medievalists (is that an oxymoron?) suggest that the Dark Ages weren't so Dark, and especially that the population didn't drop so much, but that was certainly the traditional perspective.

[Earniel]

Of course modern Medievalists (is that an oxymoron?) suggest that the Dark Ages weren't so Dark, and especially that the population didn't drop so much, but that was certainly the traditional perspective.
Speaking of the Middle Ages, I'd say that the Black Death, the plague epidemic that killed about 25 million people in Europe was probably the model for the plague that around 1670 TA killed the majority of the Cardolanean population and also hit Gondor pretty badly.

[Gordis]

As for the settled Anglo-Saxons, dare one suggest...Rohan?- (scurries quickly for shelter)

No need to scurry for shelter. :) Sure, Tolkien thought of Anglo-Saxons when depicting Rohan. Even the names are Anglo-Saxon in form.

[sun-star]

As for the settled Anglo-Saxons, dare one suggest...Rohan?- (scurries quickly for shelter)

Absolutely. There are many similarities between Rohan and the Anglo-Saxons - Theoden even practically quotes an Old English poem :D

Of course modern Medievalists (is that an oxymoron?) suggest that the Dark Ages weren't so Dark, and especially that the population didn't drop so much, but that was certainly the traditional perspective.

I did have to restrain myself from commenting on that before... "Dark Ages" seems so inappropriate, even if all it's meant to imply is that we don't know much about them!

[GreyMouser]

No need to scurry for shelter. :) Sure, Tolkien thought of Anglo-Saxons when depicting Rohan. Even the names are Anglo-Saxon in form.

I originally started posting about Tolkien on the old White Council site run by Michael Martinez, and Rohan=Anglo-Saxons was one of his pet peeves (along with pointed ears on Elves).

And when MM came down on you, believe me, you scurried for shelter :eek: :eek:

I'll go with Tom Shippey. Rohan = Anglo-Saxons + horses.
In "The Road to Middle-Earth" he argues that the Rohirrim were JRR's recreation of a hypothetical Old Gothic Indo-European horse culture based in the plains of Hungary (pre-Huns, of course)

[GreyMouser]

I did have to restrain myself from commenting on that before... "Dark Ages" seems so inappropriate, even if all it's meant to imply is that we don't know much about them!

Well, I'm not so revisionist myself- I tend to be a bit of a Classicist and mourn "the glory that was Greece, the grandeur that was Rome".

I do remember from many years ago, European History 120 (Fall of Rome to Renaissance) my prof was an Austrian. The first day he handed us a map labeled "Migrations of the Peoples" (German: Volkswanderung)

I asked what that meant; he replied "the movements of the Germanic peoples to the West'

'Oh, you mean the Barbarian Invasions"

"THEY WERE NOT BARBARIANS!!!"

Had to work really hard in that class.

[Gordis]

LOL. :)
Great story.

[Valandil]

Rome could be Fornost, perhaps?

If you want the city that was sacked by "barbarians"... or you could take Annuminas, which was probably a grander city.

I don't think Tolkien actually modeled Middle Earth on a given time in a given part of the world. Rather, I think he borrowed all sorts of episodes from history and mythology, and re-arranged them to suit (or create) his own stories.

[Alcuin]

Not Rome, but Byzantium, which slowly depopulated following plague and war, and was situated (like Minas Tirith) on the western side of the primary trade route to the Lands Beyond. Byzantium, like Minas Tirith, was at continuous war with a cruel and unrelenting foe to the East that slaughtered all who did not submit to its religion; and Byzantium, like Minas Tirith, was not the first great capital but the second, selected after an earlier and grander capital fell into ruin and decay. (The first was Rome for Byzantium, and Osgiliath for Minas Tirith. Note that this relationship is also true for Annúminas and Fornost Erain.)

Like Byzantium, Minas Tirith made peace with the barbarian tribes to the North and used them as cavalry against the invaders. Like Byzantium, Minas Tirith’s impregnable walls that had withstood invaders for centuries were breached with magic (black powder for Byzantium, black magic for Minas Tirith; but when men used alchemy instead of chemistry, many Byzantines considered black powder a form of black magic). Like Byzantium, Minas Tirith once ruled the sea with a might navy, maintaining ports and far-flung outposts to protects its interests and its citizens, and during that period, its power and influence stretched far to the south, and its name and the rumor of its power were known in many distant lands. And finally, like Byzantium, Minas Tirith was a repository of ancient knowledge lost to the rest of the world, a shining beacon of civilization and a remembrance of thousands of years of past glory long gone, an ember flickering in the approaching darkness of the end of that civilization.

But unlike Byzantium, Minas Tirith was saved.

For the Dark Ages that Tolkien studied, and for the Middle Ages that followed, Byzantium, not Rome, was the shining citadel of Christendom. And Byzantium, like Minas Tirith, was a bit alien and old-fashioned to those from the north-west of Middle-earth – or the north-west of Europe.

[CAB]

Very impressive Alcuin. That certainly sounds like more than coincidence. Do you know if anyone ever questioned Tolkien about these similarities?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think Tolkien was influenced by the European history, yes by Arthurian legend, and Rome, and Byzantium, but also Tolkien himself likened Gondor and Arnor to the Upper and Lower Egypt (sorry, I can't find the exact quote).

The Numenoreans, more specifically, but by extension the Dunedain to an extent. I believe he even gave the Numenorean crown as modeled after the Egyptian syncretised edition in the Letters, but mine are sort of in a different continent, so I can't look it up...

[Alcuin]

I think Tolkien was influenced by the European history, yes by Arthurian legend, and Rome, and Byzantium, but also Tolkien himself likened Gondor and Arnor to the Upper and Lower Egypt (sorry, I can't find the exact quote). The Numenoreans, more specifically, but by extension the Dunedain to an extent. I believe he even gave the Numenorean crown as modeled after the Egyptian syncretised edition in the Letters, but mine are sort of in a different continent, so I can't look it up...
That’s in letter 211, written 1958. The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms.And there’s a sketch of a Númenórean king wearing the crown of Gondor, which Tolkien draws to look very like the crown of Upper Egypt.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

*gives a blueberry muffin to Alcuin*

Very well done indeed! Kudos to you!

[Alcuin]

Do you know if anyone ever questioned Tolkien about these similarities?Well, in the very long Letter 131 to Milton Waldman, probably late 1951, Tolkien wrote, In the south Gondor rises to a peak of power, almost reflecting Númenor, and then fades slowly to decayed Middle Age, a kind of proud, venerable, but increasingly impotent Byzantium.As far as I am aware, this is the only comparison.

*gives a blueberry muffin to Alcuin*Delicious! Thank you.

[CAB]

Thank you for your reply Alcuin. I am glad that he apparently didn’t deny such a strong connection between the two. I don’t know much about the inspirations for Tolkien’s works, but now I claim knowledge of at least one.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I'd forgotten the connection with Byzantium; that is very interesting, indeed. I'd give you another muffin, but it's just past dinner-time, and I'm sure you're full. ;)

[Alcuin]

Ach! Schade! No more muffins!

I would not push the Byzantium correspondence too hard – it might tip over! But it does seem to make sense, and Tolkien seems to have been aware of it himself. Whether he meant Minas Tirith and Gondor to mirror Constantinople and the Byzantine (East Roman) Empire is debatable … but perhaps we are all up for the challenge?

We might begin by pointing out that Tolkien seems to have explicitly considered the Dúnedain of Gondor in terms of the Egyptians: “proud, peculiar, and archaic,” as he put it. I suppose that would be toward the end of the Egyptian Empire, but before their conquest by the Assyrians, when they ceased to be an independent, self-governing entity; even then, Egypt as a nation-state was at least 2,500 years old, on the same order of age as Gondor, and without seemingly deathless Elves to help them remember what had transpired in the past.

There’s no question, though, that Tolkien’s interests in philology – the combination of language, history, and culture – shaped the world he created. By the year 900, Anglo-Saxon England was a very settled, increasingly more peaceful place as the Danish invaders became Christians and the Anglo-Saxon bureaucracy, which eventually became the envy of the Continent in its efficiency and effectiveness, began its ascendancy.

From about 449, when Vortigern (http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/vortigernhomepage.htm) (perhaps a name, perhaps a title) invited Hengist and Horsa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hengist) to help him in his battles (Hengist is the king in Beowulf (http://www.lone-star.net/literature/beowulf/)) until the death of Arthur (http://www.britannia.com/history/h12.html) about 550, the outcome of the war between the Romano-Britons and the invading Germanic Jutes, Angles, and Saxons was very iffy; in fact, it appears that the Romano-Britons were winning. Then something terrible happened in 535: perhaps it was a meteor or comet strike, but it was more likely a volcanic event (I recommend David Keyes’ excellent book, Catastrophe (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345408764/102-2108210-1929702?v=glance&n=283155): religions changed, empires fell, and disaster stalked mankind around the globe), and the Romano-Britons never recovered.

Then there is the collapse of the Visigoth Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths) in 711-714: Tolkien taught himself Gothic from before 1910. (See Letter 272 to Zillah Sherring, 1965, and the transcription he made in a copy of The Fifth Book of Thucydides she had purchased that once that once belonged to him. That would be the fifth book of Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War (http://classics.mit.edu/Thucydides/pelopwar.html), the 27-year war between Athens and Sparta (http://www.livius.org/pb-pem/peloponnesian_war/peloponnesian_war.html) in which Pericles died and the Democracy of Athens fell; at the end of the war, Sparta installed a puppet government, and 5 years later the Athenians executed Socrates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates) for questioning whether the loss was a judgment of the gods against Athens.) Tolkien was interested in the Visigoths because they had the oldest written Germanic language.

The Fall of Arnor is similar in many ways to the collapse of the Anglo-Saxon states under pressure from the invading Norsemen until Alfred the Great (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01309d.htm) united them and beat back the invaders against seemingly insurmountable odds.

Note the similarity between the Tale of Years in “Appendix B” of Return of the King and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (http://omacl.org/Anglo/). (You can Google “Anglo-Saxon Chronicle” (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Anglo-Saxon+Chronicle&btnG=Search) and get a plethora of wonderful links to the entire work in all its multiplicities (there is more than one version). For a good feel of how the Tale of Years looks like the Chronicle, take a look at just one translated section (http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/501-97.html).)

I could prattle on (too late!), but that might be a start. Not to mention some of the sources and inspirations Tolkien cites himself: the Elder (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/index.htm) and Younger (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/) Eddas, the Völsungasaga (http://omacl.org/Volsunga/), A Voyage to Arcturus (http://www.litrix.com/arcturus/arctu001.htm) by Lindsey, and the Kalevala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala); not to mention The Marvellous Land of Snergs (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1882968042/102-2108210-1929702?v=glance&n=283155) by Wyke-Smith, which Tolkien credits in Letter 163 to W.H. Auden with an unconscious inspiration for hobbits.

But the single most important inspiration might be Beowulf (http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/), which Tolkien loved. I believe I recall that for many years at Oxford, he gave public recitations of Beowulf (http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/irvinem/english016/beowulf/beowulf.html), beginning with the Anglo-Saxon command to the audience, Quiet! – Hwæt! – which many uninformed listeners mistook for What! Two of Tolkien’s well-known scholarly works are an excellent version of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345277600/qid=1148451028/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-2108210-1929702?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) and Beowulf: the Monster and the Critics (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0866982906/qid=1148451090/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-2108210-1929702?s=books&v=glance&n=283155). Both of these books cover the same basic period – the years 449 to about 550, the years that shaped and put into motion what became Tolkien’s area of study: Anglo-Saxon, English literature, and Welsh, among many others, and the histories and stories they provide.

[Earniel]

Very interesting. You certainly know your history, Alcuin. :)

[CAB]

Wow Alcuin, that is a lot of information. I would say a lot of very good information, but it will be a while before I can go through it all to make sure. (Just kidding, I have no doubt that it is all very good information.:)) I will bookmark this post. Thank you very much Alcuin.

[Gordis]

I second that.

Thanks, indeed, Alcuin. :)

[GreyMouser]

This may be stretching it, but

"The new host that we had tidings of has come first, from over the River by way of Andros, it is said. They are strong: battalions of Orcs of the Eye, and countless companies of Men of a new sort we have not met before. Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like dwarves, wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."

Slavs? ( it fits the stereotype) -who were moving down into the Balkans at the time. Of course, the Slavs were supposedly invited in by the Byzantines to fight the Avars, which gives parallels to Rohan... so, it gets mixed up.
:)

[GreyMouser]

For those interested, a link to Michael Martinez on Rohan and Anglo-Saxons

http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/michaelmartinezsuite101essay26/view

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Great post, Alcuin; I would, however, here point out that, according to Plato's "Apology", Socrates was executed for a series of charges which boil down to corrupting the youth and disbelieving in the city's gods.

Ach! Schade! No more muffins!

I would not push the Byzantium correspondence too hard – it might tip over! But it does seem to make sense, and Tolkien seems to have been aware of it himself. Whether he meant Minas Tirith and Gondor to mirror Constantinople and the Byzantine (East Roman) Empire is debatable … but perhaps we are all up for the challenge?

We might begin by pointing out that Tolkien seems to have explicitly considered the Dúnedain of Gondor in terms of the Egyptians: “proud, peculiar, and archaic,” as he put it. I suppose that would be toward the end of the Egyptian Empire, but before their conquest by the Assyrians, when they ceased to be an independent, self-governing entity; even then, Egypt as a nation-state was at least 2,500 years old, on the same order of age as Gondor, and without seemingly deathless Elves to help them remember what had transpired in the past.

There’s no question, though, that Tolkien’s interests in philology – the combination of language, history, and culture – shaped the world he created. By the year 900, Anglo-Saxon England was a very settled, increasingly more peaceful place as the Danish invaders became Christians and the Anglo-Saxon bureaucracy, which eventually became the envy of the Continent in its efficiency and effectiveness, began its ascendancy.

From about 449, when Vortigern (http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/vortigernhomepage.htm) (perhaps a name, perhaps a title) invited Hengist and Horsa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hengist) to help him in his battles (Hengist is the king in Beowulf (http://www.lone-star.net/literature/beowulf/)) until the death of Arthur (http://www.britannia.com/history/h12.html) about 550, the outcome of the war between the Romano-Britons and the invading Germanic Jutes, Angles, and Saxons was very iffy; in fact, it appears that the Romano-Britons were winning. Then something terrible happened in 535: perhaps it was a meteor or comet strike, but it was more likely a volcanic event (I recommend David Keyes’ excellent book, Catastrophe (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345408764/102-2108210-1929702?v=glance&n=283155): religions changed, empires fell, and disaster stalked mankind around the globe), and the Romano-Britons never recovered.

Then there is the collapse of the Visigoth Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths) in 711-714: Tolkien taught himself Gothic from before 1910. (See Letter 272 to Zillah Sherring, 1965, and the transcription he made in a copy of The Fifth Book of Thucydides she had purchased that once that once belonged to him. That would be the fifth book of Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War (http://classics.mit.edu/Thucydides/pelopwar.html), the 27-year war between Athens and Sparta (http://www.livius.org/pb-pem/peloponnesian_war/peloponnesian_war.html) in which Pericles died and the Democracy of Athens fell; at the end of the war, Sparta installed a puppet government, and 5 years later the Athenians executed Socrates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates) for questioning whether the loss was a judgment of the gods against Athens.) Tolkien was interested in the Visigoths because they had the oldest written Germanic language.

The Fall of Arnor is similar in many ways to the collapse of the Anglo-Saxon states under pressure from the invading Norsemen until Alfred the Great (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01309d.htm) united them and beat back the invaders against seemingly insurmountable odds.

Note the similarity between the Tale of Years in “Appendix B” of Return of the King and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (http://omacl.org/Anglo/). (You can Google “Anglo-Saxon Chronicle” (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Anglo-Saxon+Chronicle&btnG=Search) and get a plethora of wonderful links to the entire work in all its multiplicities (there is more than one version). For a good feel of how the Tale of Years looks like the Chronicle, take a look at just one translated section (http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/501-97.html).)

I could prattle on (too late!), but that might be a start. Not to mention some of the sources and inspirations Tolkien cites himself: the Elder (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/index.htm) and Younger (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/) Eddas, the Völsungasaga (http://omacl.org/Volsunga/), A Voyage to Arcturus (http://www.litrix.com/arcturus/arctu001.htm) by Lindsey, and the Kalevala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala); not to mention The Marvellous Land of Snergs (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1882968042/102-2108210-1929702?v=glance&n=283155) by Wyke-Smith, which Tolkien credits in Letter 163 to W.H. Auden with an unconscious inspiration for hobbits.

But the single most important inspiration might be Beowulf (http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/), which Tolkien loved. I believe I recall that for many years at Oxford, he gave public recitations of Beowulf (http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/irvinem/english016/beowulf/beowulf.html), beginning with the Anglo-Saxon command to the audience, Quiet! – Hwæt! – which many uninformed listeners mistook for What! Two of Tolkien’s well-known scholarly works are an excellent version of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345277600/qid=1148451028/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-2108210-1929702?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) and Beowulf: the Monster and the Critics (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0866982906/qid=1148451090/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-2108210-1929702?s=books&v=glance&n=283155). Both of these books cover the same basic period – the years 449 to about 550, the years that shaped and put into motion what became Tolkien’s area of study: Anglo-Saxon, English literature, and Welsh, among many others, and the histories and stories they provide.

[Gordis]

Slavs? ( it fits the stereotype) -who were moving down into the Balkans at the time. Of course, the Slavs were supposedly invited in by the Byzantines to fight the Avars, which gives parallels to Rohan... so, it gets mixed up.
:)
Why not? Slavic lands are supposed to correspond to the area around Rhun, I believe,

[Forkbeard]

For those interested, a link to Michael Martinez on Rohan and Anglo-Saxons

http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/michaelmartinezsuite101essay26/view

Hey ho GM! I got a "bad gateway" when I tried the link.

[Forkbeard]

I originally started posting about Tolkien on the old White Council site run by Michael Martinez, and Rohan=Anglo-Saxons was one of his pet peeves (along with pointed ears on Elves).

And when MM came down on you, believe me, you scurried for shelter :eek: :eek:

I'll go with Tom Shippey. Rohan = Anglo-Saxons + horses.
In "The Road to Middle-Earth" he argues that the Rohirrim were JRR's recreation of a hypothetical Old Gothic Indo-European horse culture based in the plains of Hungary (pre-Huns, of course)

Amen! ALthough I disagree with Tom about the Anglo-Saxons and horses, but that's another story.

[Forkbeard]

Alcuinus, es vir qui sequitur cor meum. Bone factum es!

[GreyMouser]

Hey ho GM! I got a "bad gateway" when I tried the link.

Me, too :o
And I can't find the link anywhere- try this one

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/26924

Tolkien's Middle-earth doesn't look like Medieval Europe

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Alcuinus, es vir qui sequitur cor meum. Bone factum es!


Ubine cor tuum ducit? ;)

[Zilbanne]

Well, I'm not so revisionist myself- I tend to be a bit of a Classicist and mourn "the glory that was Greece, the grandeur that was Rome".

I do remember from many years ago, European History 120 (Fall of Rome to Renaissance) my prof was an Austrian. The first day he handed us a map labeled "Migrations of the Peoples" (German: Volkswanderung)

I asked what that meant; he replied "the movements of the Germanic peoples to the West'

'Oh, you mean the Barbarian Invasions"

"THEY WERE NOT BARBARIANS!!!"

Had to work really hard in that class.


I thought the Roman citizens just called the various Germanic peoples Barbarians because when Germanic people spoke to Roman ears it sounded like they were saying " Bar! Bar! Bar!" *

Truly I was taught this in a sophmore level history class at University.


* Possibly they were just REALLY thirsty?


:p

[Earniel]

Slightly off topic, but speaking of Barbarians, there's a great series from Terry Jones running on the BBC about that. Very insightful in how the Romans influenced our opinions on them.

[Forkbeard]

Ubine cor tuum ducit? ;)
procedere ulterior sursum et ulterior in!

[Forkbeard]

I thought the Roman citizens just called the various Germanic peoples Barbarians because when Germanic people spoke to Roman ears it sounded like they were saying " Bar! Bar! Bar!" *

Truly I was taught this in a sophmore level history class at University.


* Possibly they were just REALLY thirsty?


:p

Well, I don't know about "citizens", but the Romans borrowed the term barbarian from the Greeks (and the Greeks before Rome's rise to power over the Greek penninsula would have called the Romans barbarians.).

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

In in the mid-1950s when LOTR was first published there were those who thought it was allegorical to WWII. In the subsequent editions you'll find this printed in the Foreward:

...I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedome of the reader, and the other ins the purported domination of the author.

An author cannot of course remain wholly unaffected by his experience, but the ways in which a story-germ uses the soil of experience are extremely complex, and attempts to define the process are at best guesses from evidence that is inadequate and ambiguous.

So I think that while we may find some applicability of portions of LOTR to actual history, I think it would be a mistake to say that Tolkien deliberately mirrored the Dark Ages of Europe in the Third Age of Middle-earth.

[Alcuin]

I agree with you, Old_Tom. What Tolkien does use is real history in many cases, as well as existing stories. The names of the Dwarves are taken from the Voluspo, for instance, while Tolkien says in Letter 163 that ents are in part due “to my bitter disappointment and disgust … with the shabby use made in Shakespeare of the coming of ‘Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill’: I hoped to devise a setting in which the trees might really march to war.” Not to mention that Treebeard with his hemming and hawing is intended to sound like C.S. Lewis; and Sam’s surname, Gamgee, is a term for ‘cotton-wool’ and is taken from the name of a surgeon, Sampson Gamgee, who apparently pioneered its use; Letter 184 is to a “Sam Gamgee” of London who wrote to him; and Tolkien responded by sending him a letter and, as I read the letter, a signed 3-volume set of Lord of the Rings. nazg, the Black Speech word for “ring,” is probably from the Irish word for “ring,” nasc, written nasg in Scottish. We could go on and on, but these will suffice.

The Ruling Ring is almost certainly related to the Ring of the Nibelung, the Andvarinaut. Siegfried is apprenticed to the Nibelung dwarf Mime (> Mîm, the petty-dwarf or Nibin-Nogrim?), and after killing Fafner in dragon-form, from whose horde he takes the Tarnhelm, which renders its wearer invisible; and so forth.

The point is that Tolkien used the stories and tales he loved. Some of them were folktales, some were legends, some myths, and some were history. The man was the leading scholar of Anglo-Saxon and Dark Age European literature of his day; he was an outstanding philologist; and he understood human nature in a rare way, so that all of us who roam around this forum are continually commenting on this or that wry or subtle observation he made through his fiction.

The Lord of the Rings isn’t allegory; at least, not in the sense of deliberate allegory in the way that The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is deliberate allegory. But it is not possible to write such a magnificent piece without incorporating the events of his life and experience.

[Forkbeard]

In in the mid-1950s when LOTR was first published there were those who thought it was allegorical to WWII. In the subsequent editions you'll find this printed in the Foreward:



So I think that while we may find some applicability of portions of LOTR to actual history, I think it would be a mistake to say that Tolkien deliberately mirrored the Dark Ages of Europe in the Third Age of Middle-earth.

"Mirror" does not equal "allegory".

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

"Mirror" does not equal "allegory".
Whether you say "mirror" or "allegory" does not change the fact that the assertion made in the title of this thread, "Middle-Earth is Dark Age Europe", is false.

[Forkbeard]

Whether you say "mirror" or "allegory" does not change the fact that the assertion made in the title of this thread, "Middle-Earth is Dark Age Europe", is false.

First, I'd say that disproving one statement by making an equally false counter statement is probably not the best way to proceed.

Second, while I agree that the title is false, many of the remarks made in the initial post are not. Such as, "It should be obvious to everyone that Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age is modelled on Europe circa 900 AD". Modelled I think too strong a word; but the direction is correct.

[Alcuin]

Look, there’s a real difference between saying, “Minas Tirith is {Constantinople | Rome | 4th century Camulodenum},” and saying, “Minas Tirith is like {Constantinople | Rome | 4th century Camulodenum},” and then listing all the reasons why, as well as the reasons why not.

To say that “Middle earth is like Dark Age Europe” is no stretch. Dark Age Europe seems to have been the period of European history of greatest interest to Tolkien in his scholarly studies; and as he wrote, all the things that he knew – the languages and their slow evolution; the people and their habits, politics, wars, and migrations, the general descriptions of the ways of life; and the regret and remembrance of the glory that was once the great Roman Empire (particularly in sixth and seventh-century Britannia, whose frontier was pushed slowly westward until it became “Wales,” “the territory of the alien race,” to the conquering Anglo-Saxons) – give a sense of life and realism to the tales he wove.

The assertion that “Middle earth is Dark Age Europe” is a stretch, but not completely false. That Tolkien’s illustration of the interior of Beorn’s hall is explicitly patterned after a sketch in E.V. Gordon’s 1927 Introduction to Old Norse is well-known and widely accepted because it appears in J.R.R. Tolkien, Artist & Illustrator, pp 122-124. The narrative description of Beorn’s hall matches the illustration quite well, and so it must be presumed that Tolkien had in mind the kind of Norse or Anglo-Saxon halls with which he was quite familiar when he wrote that part of the The Hobbit. (A similar hall is described in Beowulf, for which Tolkien was probably the leading authority in the 20th century.) Meduseld, the great hall of Théoden, seems to be based upon this as well. These are certainly “Dark Age” structures. The few descriptions we have of Elvish ships tend to resemble those of Dark Age longboats. (Vikings were not the only people who built them, but they built the best.)

In a long letter to Milton Waldman in 1951, Letter 131, Tolkien says that “Gondor rises to a peak of power, almost reflecting Númenor, and then fades slowly to decayed Middle Age, a kind of proud, venerable, but increasingly impotent Byzantium.” Notice that he doesn’t say, “Gondor is Byzantium.” He says that Gondor is like Byzantium, which would be (for those of us whose ancestors came from north western Europe) Dark Age Europe; but for Constantinople, it was a Golden Age. And For Gondor, too, the period Tolkien is describing – presumably during the reigns of the four Ship-Kings of Gondor (III 830 – 1226) – is a Golden Age, the height of its power and glory.

You cannot push such analogies (not “allegories”, but rather “analogies”) too far: in Letter 211, written in 1958 to Rhona Beare, he says that “The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled ‘Egyptians’…” and includes a very nice sketch of a Dúnadan king with a crown strikingly similar to the White Crown of Upper Egypt.

Middle-earth is “like” this or that part of Western history in many ways and “unlike” the same parts in other ways. You might find your labors more constructive and enjoyable from finding the similarities and differences rather than in arguing whether or not some deliberate or accidental allegory has or has not taken place, or whether indeed the entire thread is somehow illegitimate because the thesis posed in it is not perfectly stated. I know I would.

[Forkbeard]

Look, there’s a real difference between saying, “Minas Tirith is {Constantinople | Rome | 4th century Camulodenum},” and saying, “Minas Tirith is like {Constantinople | Rome | 4th century Camulodenum},” and then listing all the reasons why, as well as the reasons why not.
I thought this is what I said, the difference between "mirror" and "allegory" lies here, among other things.

To say that “Middle earth is like Dark Age Europe” is no stretch. Dark Age Europe seems to have been the period of European history of greatest interest to Tolkien in his scholarly studies; and as he wrote, all the things that he knew – the languages and their slow evolution; the people and their habits, politics, wars, and migrations, the general descriptions of the ways of life; and the regret and remembrance of the glory that was once the great Roman Empire (particularly in sixth and seventh-century Britannia, whose frontier was pushed slowly westward until it became “Wales,” “the territory of the alien race,” to the conquering Anglo-Saxons) – give a sense of life and realism to the tales he wove.

Too much here to respond to in my limited time. Suffice to say that in early Welsh lit I don't detect a lot of "remembrance of the glory that was the great Roman Empire" or its passing particularly mourned, perhaps I've missed something (although the topic would get us off topic and if we explore that perhaps it should be moved to another forum.) The view of the "conquering" Anglo-Saxons is one that is beginning to change based on DNA and archaeological evidence.

The assertion that “Middle earth is Dark Age Europe” is a stretch, but not completely false. That Tolkien’s illustration of the interior of Beorn’s hall is explicitly patterned after a sketch in E.V. Gordon’s 1927 Introduction to Old Norse is well-known and widely accepted because it appears in J.R.R. Tolkien, Artist & Illustrator, pp 122-124. The narrative description of Beorn’s hall matches the illustration quite well, and so it must be presumed that Tolkien had in mind the kind of Norse or Anglo-Saxon halls with which he was quite familiar when he wrote that part of the The Hobbit. (A similar hall is described in Beowulf, for which Tolkien was probably the leading authority in the 20th century.)

Yes, overall a good point. Just a minor point though: Tolkien was NOT the leading 20th century expert on Beowulf. Not even close. If such a person would be chosen, that would Father Klaeber whose 1922 edition continues to influence students and is the standard edition and commentary quoted in articles and studies of Beowulf. Tolkien did write one of the most influential essays for 20th century Beowulf criticism though: his Monster and the Critics forever changed the way in the which the poem was approached, and though now surpassed, the essay remains one of the important classics of Beowulf criticism that every student of the poem must read. But that isn't quite the same thing as claiming that he was the preeminent Beowulf scholar.

Meduseld, the great hall of Théoden, seems to be based upon this as well. These are certainly “Dark Age” structures. The few descriptions we have of Elvish ships tend to resemble those of Dark Age longboats. (Vikings were not the only people who built them, but they built the best.)

No "seems" about it!! Heorot in Beowulf is called meduseld, the mead hall, several times, and of course there is much in the approach of the Aragorn, Gandalf, Gimli, and Legolas to Meduseld and in Meduseld that is "Beowulfian", the scene in LoTR is clearly mirrored on the approach scene in Beowulf. Good note on the longboats.


You cannot push such analogies (not “allegories”, but rather “analogies”) too far: in Letter 211, written in 1958 to Rhona Beare, he says that “The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled ‘Egyptians’…” and includes a very nice sketch of a Dúnadan king with a crown strikingly similar to the White Crown of Upper Egypt.
It depends greatly on how specific you make the analogies. That the analogies to "Dark Age" Europe work and work well is well known, but in the discussion of any literary text one does not just pin everything to one thing, if the author is any good they have multiple influences in any given situation. What gets some commentators into trouble is that they either overstress one influence or another to the exclusion of others, or attack an author who has done so rejecting the point because they fall into the same trap of overstressing a different influence.

Middle-earth is “like” this or that part of Western history in many ways and “unlike” the same parts in other ways. You might find your labors more constructive and enjoyable from finding the similarities and differences rather than in arguing whether or not some deliberate or accidental allegory has or has not taken place, or whether indeed the entire thread is somehow illegitimate because the thesis posed in it is not perfectly stated. I know I would.

Well said! A pleasure reading your posts Alcuin! Ok, I spent too much time making minor points when I have too many other threads here to respond to. Ah well!

FB

[GreyMouser]

First of all, the title of the thread was deliberately provocative, because I`ve posted on this before, both here- a few years ago- and the old White Council forum, about seven or eight years ago,( foolheartedly stepping into the middle of the Michael Martinez-Martin Read Wars, lending proof to that old African expression,`` When the elephants fight, the grass gets trampled``) and received roughly the same response: either Tolkien is sui generis, or that he draws from so many sources that it is impossible to tie him so closely to any particular time and place- with which I disagree.

I`m not saying that Middle-Earth is an allegory of our own world- Aragorn is not Charlemagne- just that the general geography, social structure, and overall political situation very closely resembles Dark Age Europe, and that given Tolkien`s life-long passion for this `northern thing` as he described it, it`s more than a coincidence that the two are so closely paralleled, comparisons to Egypt, Homer and Atlantis -even by Tolkien himself- notwithstanding.

I myself feel caution about accepting Tolkien`s own statements on some of these issues. I think that he was defensive about suggestions of derivativeness.
His statement that the Rohirrim do not resemble the ancient English is either deliberate obfuscation or willful blindness- Shippey in ``The Road to Middle-Earth`` is a good reference.

[Coffeehouse]

Omg.. omg!.. OMG!!!

Vikings = Orcs!? That is so insulting lol:p

But anyways, although it is of course interesting to see all the similarities between Middle Earth and early Middle Ages life, from things people wear to Dark Age legends and myths to how wars were fought, there are a few interesting names in Middle Earth are surprising and not so geographically absolute as some suggest.. (and showing that Tolkien's influences could well be far more diverse than some of the European geographics suggested in here)

1. In northern Ethiopia there is a region with high mountains, barren lands and lush forests with a temperate climate and great rolling rivers. This region is also heavily Catholic. The region is called Gondor.

2. South of the capital of Norway lies the province of Westfold, and the ancient seat of government in Norway, where in the times of the Vikings local chieftains fought between large plains and thick, pinewood forests.

3. In the Mark (Land in Norwegian) of the Vinguls, or the Vingulmark reigned amongst others, the king Gandalf Alfgeirsson. This was in the Viking Ages.

5. Eastfold. Province in southern Norway, part of the territory of Vingulmark stretching all the way to the Westfold.

5. Middle Earth. Midgard, land of mortals in Norse mythology. Heavy influence on the Anglo-Saxon language from Old Norse due to the Danish and Norwegian conquest of Britain.

So there we go! And that's just my scratch-the-surface knowledge.

I think perhaps the worst assumption one could make is to directly equate Mordor or the Haradrim with Muslims as during the early Middle Ages the Muslims had their Golden Years of unprecedented philosophical, scientific and societal progress which made Europe look like a bunch of losers in comparison;)

[Gordis]

I think perhaps the worst assumption one could make is to directly equate Mordor or the Haradrim with Muslims as during the early Middle Ages the Muslims had their Golden Years of unprecedented philosophical, scientific and societal progress which made Europe look like a bunch of losers in comparison;)

That is true - but what DO we know about Haradrim or Khandians? What do we know about Black Numenoreans? They may have been no worse than Middle Age Muslims in terms of culture...;)

[Coffeehouse]

That is true - but what DO we know about Haradrim or Khandians? What do we know about Black Numenoreans? They may have been no worse than Middle Age Muslims in terms of culture...;)

Yeah. Haradrim are also an interesting peoples, it's too bad their history and geography is confined to being a string of footnotes in ME history. I'm especially curious about any cities they might have and their economy and relationship with the Western areas in ME. And were all in allegiance to Sauron & Mordor?

[Gordis]

Yeah. Haradrim are also an interesting peoples, it's too bad their history and geography is confined to being a string of footnotes in ME history. I'm especially curious about any cities they might have and their economy and relationship with the Western areas in ME. And were all in allegiance to Sauron & Mordor?

Well... Harad had been strongly influenced by late Numenor: there were several Numenorean havens along the coast: of them Umbar was the greatest. At first, in mid-Second Age, Numenoreans came as friends and teachers, then they slowly turned into oppressors and colonizers. But by the end of the Second Age Harad was actually ruled by two Numenorean lords: Herumor and Fuinur, enemies of Elendili.
I guess the Black Numenoreans must have built a lot of fortresses in Harad, comparable to what the Elendili built in Gondor: Orthanc and Aglarond, Minas Anor, Minas Ithil and Osgiliath. At least, Harad seemed to be well defended, because for a thousand years Gondor left it in peace. Eventually Gondor grew strong and at the end of the first millennium of the Third Age Gondorians conquered first Umbar, then Harad (TA1050). Gondor held Harad in vassalage for about a thousand years, then lost it.
As for the alliance with Mordor, perhaps it was made not long before the War of the Ring, after Sauron returned to Mordor. However, Harad was firmly opposed to Gondor prior to that and often attacked the southern gondorian provinces.

[Coffeehouse]

Well... Harad had been strongly influenced by late Numenor: there were several Numenorean havens along the coast: of them Umbar was the greatest. At first, in mid-Second Age, Numenoreans came as friends and teachers, then they slowly turned into oppressors and colonizers. But by the end of the Second Age Harad was actually ruled by two Numenorean lords: Herumor and Fuinur, enemies of Elendili.
I guess the Black Numenoreans must have built a lot of fortresses in Harad, comparable to what the Elendili built in Gondor: Orthanc and Aglarond, Minas Anor, Minas Ithil and Osgiliath. At least, Harad seemed to be well defended, because for a thousand years Gondor left it in peace. Eventually Gondor grew strong and at the end of the first millennium of the Third Age Gondorians conquered first Umbar, then Harad (TA1050). Gondor held Harad in vassalage for about a thousand years, then lost it.
As for the alliance with Mordor, perhaps it was made not long before the War of the Ring, after Sauron returned to Mordor. However, Harad was firmly opposed to Gondor prior to that and often attacked the southern gondorian provinces.

Mhm I didn't know that. So Gondor and the Harad are long-time enemies. So what you think about the alliance with Sauron. Would you say it was the dual forces of two evil cultures (Mordor and Harad), or a enemy of my enemy relationship, or a forced alliance by Sauron onto the Harad, or a pragmatic, realpolitik strategy by the Harad where they saw a chance in taking out Gondor once and for all in the promise of living peacefully in Sauron's new world:cool:

[Gordis]

Frankly I have difficulty to see any human culture as "evil", especially when we know next to nothing about Haradian customs. Haradrim had their own Kings and their own interests, opposed to those of Gondor. They were likely allies, not vassals of Sauron - they came under their own banners. I think at least near Harad entered the Mordor alliance willingly, because it was in their interests. Far Harad and the Easterlings probably were after rich spoils.

Anyway, the valor they all have shown at the Pelennor indicates that they were not Sauron's slaves, but willing allies.

[Coffeehouse]

Frankly I have difficulty to see any human culture as "evil", especially when we know next to nothing about Haradian customs. Haradrim had their own Kings and their own interests, opposed to those of Gondor. They were likely allies, not vassals of Sauron - they came under their own banners. I think at least near Harad entered the Mordor alliance willingly, because it was in their interests. Far Harad and the Easterlings probably were after rich spoils.

Anyway, the valor they all have shown at the Pelennor indicates that they were not Sauron's slaves, but willing allies.

I agree. I also have difficulty seeing any human culture as essentially evil. But since in LOTR, Sauron and his Mordor are in all respects the embodiment of evil, wouldn't that make Harad (indirectly or directly) evil too? They must after all, have enjoyed some contact with Sauron himself or at least some of the guys high up in the Mordor hierarchy and they must have known that when Sauron was finished with all Ye Gondorians and elves and dwarves (and hobbits) that the world would be thorougly evil. I would propose (if we say they aren't evil) that they were, in one way or another, duped into thinking that they were fighting something more evil than Mordor itself (namely Gondor whom they seem to have good reason to hate)
So their valor in the Pelennor fields is brave enough, but that does not mean they weren't in some way vassals (perhaps unknowingly), and that they would get the same cut of the blade from Sauron as the rest of Middle Earth were meant to get..

[Alcuin]

“Khand” in Tolkien has been noted to be cognate to -kan, -kand, -khand, as in “Samarkand,” which Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarqand) (admittedly, a sometimes dicey source of information) “derives from the Old Persian asmara, ‘stone’, ‘rock’, and Sogdian kand, ‘fort’, ‘town’.” (Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/k/khand.html) offers the definition ‘realm’ or ‘land’ for the real world word khand in its entry for “Khand” in Middle-earth, without citing another source.) Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/khan%5B2%5D) offers a secondary definition of “khan” as “a caravansary or rest house in some Asian countries” (i.e., a hostel (http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/KhanAlUmdan.html#Etymology)).

Whether the folk of Khand were “willing allies” or not is probably beside the point: there is a very good chance that they were long-time worshippers of Sauron, who had styled himself a god-king.

Tolkien’s use of the word, and the geographic position of Middle-earth Khand relative to real-world “khands” or “kands” is suggestive that he borrowed the word, consciously or subconsciously. He may also have borrowed the characteristics of the people who lived in the real-world lands to fill out his subcreation: it would seem a natural thing to do.

[Gordis]

Encyclopedia of Arda[/url] offers the definition ‘realm’ or ‘land’ for the real world word khand in its entry for “Khand” in Middle-earth, without citing another source.)
Also note that "Khan" was a common title of the ruler in Turkic and Mongolian languages (ex: Genghis-Khan), so "Khand" might well mean "the Realm"

Whether the folk of Khand were “willing allies” or not is probably beside the point: there is a very good chance that they were long-time worshippers of Sauron, who had styled himself a god-king.
That is a very good point. If indeed the peoples of Khand and Harad persisted in worshipping Melkor and Sauron (as Melkor Returned) throughout all the Third Age, then the war against Gondor was something like a crusade, a holy war - The God called and they answered.

But since in LOTR, Sauron and his Mordor are in all respects the embodiment of evil, wouldn't that make Harad (indirectly or directly) evil too?

Mordor/Sauron is the embodiment of evil only from the point of view of the author of the Red Book and his sourses- Elven and Dunedain chronicles.
Actually even from those biased chronicles we can glean that Sauron, all things considered, was not a bad ruler of Men:
Now Sauron's lust and pride increased, until he knew no bounds, and he determined to make himself master of all things in Middle-earth, and to destroy the Elves, and to compass, if he might, the downfall of Númenor. He brooked no freedom nor any rivalry, and he named himself Lord of the Earth. A mask he still could wear so that if he wished he might deceive the eyes of Men, seeming to them wise and fair. But he ruled rather by force and fear, if they might avail; and those who perceived his shadow spreading over the world called him the Dark Lord and named him the Enemy [...] In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and armed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire.- Of the Rings of Power...

And especially here:

...this evil thing was called by many names, but the Eruhil named
him Sauron, and men of Middle-earth (when they dared to speak his name at all) named him mostly Zigur the Great. And he made himself a great king in the midst of the earth, and was at first well-seeming and just and his rule was of benefit to all men in their needs of the body; for he made them rich, who would serve him. But those who would not were driven out into the waste places. - HOME 9 "The Drowning of Anadune"

[Coffeehouse]

Also note that "Khan" was a common title of the ruler in Turkic and Mongolian languages (ex: Genghis-Khan), so "Khand" might well mean "the Realm"


That is a very good point. If indeed the peoples of Khand and Harad persisted in worshipping Melkor and Sauron (as Melkor Returned) throughout all the Third Age, then the war against Gondor was something like a crusade, a holy war - The God called and they answered.



Mordor/Sauron is the embodiment of evil only from the point of view of the author of the Red Book and his sourses- Elven and Dunedain chronicles.
Actually even from those biased chronicles we can glean that Sauron, all things considered, was not a bad ruler of Men:


And especially here:


Well, it would be only guesswork to try to imagine what the state of things would be in Middle Earth under Sauron-rule and how he would treat his subjects. I could argue that Sauron's dark, but solid and crystal clear (you may say sound) rule was only an instrument to obtain ultimate power. Any dictatorship in the world, be it Saddam's Baathist, Hitler's Nazi, Franco's Fascist, or Mao's Communist rule, have shown to be crude and heavy-handed, but often with a fanatical behaviour from their followers whom want to prove themselves always, yet when these men have achieved the pinnacle of their power there has been not more freedom as a reward, but confusing messages from these leaders, irrational behaviour, that has made it worse for followers, not better. Suddenly, whatever you do as a follower, will eventually come in a bad light from the leader's POV because of the leader's inherent insecurity as to how much he has to do to keep his power total. Ironic, and that may have been the faith of the Harad had they been victorious with Sauron and thus it might not appear to them that they are vassals until it is too late.. ;)

[Alcuin]

I think we can throw some light upon how Sauron managed Middle-earth in the regions he controlled in the absence of the Elves and the Faithful Dúnedain.

In Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed”, VII, “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion,” Tolkien described Morgoth as ultimately nihilistic:[Morgoth’s] sole object was [the] destruction [of] Elves, and still more Men… [H]is endeavor was always to break will and subordinate them … before destroying their bodies. This was sheer nihilism… Morgoth would …, if he had been victorious, have even destroyed his own ‘creatures’…

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. …

Melkor, and still more Sauron…, both profited by … the services of ‘worshippers.’ … To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound … to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. But though Sauron’s whole true motive was the destruction of the Númenóreans, this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazôn, for humiliation. Sauron (unlike Morgoth) would have been content for Númenóreans to exist, as his own subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.

In Morgoth’s Ring, “Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth” (Debate of Finrod and Andreth), “Tale of Adanel,” [Morgoth] began to show favor … to the strongest and the cruellest… He gave gifts to them, and knowledge they kept secret; and they became powerful and proud, and enslaved us, so that we had no rest from labour amidst our afflictions.

…if any were caught, our masters, his friends, commanded that they should be taken to the House [for the worship of Morgoth] and there done to death by fire. That pleased him greatly, his friends said…Note the similarity to the description of Sauron practicing human sacrifice at his temple in Armenelos after he seduced the Númenóreans.

[Gordis]

Well, I was speaking of Sauron, not of Morgoth. There is a huge difference between them in their ultimate goals - as emphasized by Tolkien himself.

Sauron, given the opportunity, would have become the ruler of ME, brooking no opposition, cruel, but also quite rational and even just. One thing can be said in his favour: he was tolerant to all peoples and races of ME (provided they didn't fight against him) and gave career opportunities even to orcs. Shagrat was in command of a huge fortress. Could you imagine a Dunlending (I am not even speaking of orcs) in command of a fortress in Arnor or Gondor?

What life would be like in the Westlands under Sauron? I guess in a way similar to the Shire under Sharkey - with much more order. There would be straight streets, orderly houses, new mills and all sort of machines. There would be medical care and maybe even child allowance. Everything would be regulated to the point of obsession. Everyone would get a personal number (remember how Sau numbered his orcs?) and a personal record. Bureaucrats would write long reports. Nobody who works would go hungry. Nobody who errs would remain unpunished.

No paradise surely, but bearable. Or is it? ;)

[Valandil]

Well, I was speaking of Sauron, not of Morgoth. There is a huge difference between them in their ultimate goals - as emphasized by Tolkien himself.

Sauron, given the opportunity, would have become the ruler of ME, brooking no opposition, cruel, but also quite rational and even just. One thing can be said in his favour: he was tolerant to all peoples and races of ME (provided they didn't fight against him) and gave career opportunities even to orcs. Shagrat was in command of a huge fortress. Could you imagine a Dunlending (I am not even speaking of orcs) in command of a fortress in Arnor or Gondor?

What life would be like in the Westlands under Sauron? I guess in a way similar to the Shire under Sharkey - with much more order. There would be straight streets, orderly houses, new mills and all sort of machines. There would be medical care and maybe even child allowance. Everything would be regulated to the point of obsession. Everyone would get a personal number (remember how Sau numbered his orcs?) and a personal record. Bureaucrats would write long reports. Nobody who works would go hungry. Nobody who errs would remain unpunished.

No paradise surely, but bearable. Or is it? ;)

No using extra firewood without an Extra Firewood Permit.

No serving extra food without an Extra Food Permit.

No visiting friends out of town without a Visiting Out of Town Permit.

All the inns closed.

Plenty of 'sharers' to help you share all your things with others so you're left with half what you had before, and have to ask them permission to do all the things you used to do of your own free will.

And... you have a problem with it, you go to jail. Or, maybe get eaten.

[Alcuin]

Gandalf’s depiction of the results of a Sauronian victory are not very pleasant in FotR, “Shadow of the Past”:Frodo shuddered... ‘And why should [Sauron] want [hobbit] slaves?’

‘To tell you the truth,’ replied Gandalf, ‘I believe that hitherto – hitherto, mark you – he has entirely overlooked the existence of hobbits. ... He does not need you – he has many more useful servants – but he won’t forget you again. And hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free...’
Once in command, I doubt that Sauron would have cared whether his slaves lived or died, or starved. Consider our case in Núrnen, which Tolkien describes in RotK, “Land of Shadow”: Neither [Sam] nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields … by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the Tower brought long wagon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves. (No doubt one of the strategic importances of Khand to Mordor: as a source food, material, and especially of slave labor.)

[Gordis]

All the inns closed.
Or maybe there would be Special Inn Permits for those who behave well? :p Stimulating one's subjects is important.


And... you have a problem with it, you go to jail. Or, maybe get eaten.
Or, more likely, you become a slave to work those fields in Nurn.

We are not told how Sauron obtained his slaves. I strongly disagree that ALL his subjects were slaves. There had to be soldiers, bureaucrats, civil workers, artisans, and free peasants. The free ones were becoming rich under Sauron's rule. But he also had slaves, yes. Perhaps the slaves were not even prisoners of war, but convicts from Harad, Khand and Rhun. I totally see Sauron using labor camps for the "wrong-doers" or dissidents, much like it was done in XX century real-word. That was the sort of "progress" Sauron would invent along with personal numbers.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

In another way, though, Gordis, all Sauron's subjects were slaves in a sense. Any who rebelled or tried to forge their own independent course would certainly have been smacked down. If slavery is the opposite of freedom, then all Sauron's subjects were slaves because none of them were free.

Of course, freedom is relative, even in free societies.

[Gordis]

Weren't all Gondor subjects slaves in a sense as well? Any who rebelled were driven away to Umbar - at best.

[Alcuin]

Weren't all Gondor subjects slaves in a sense as well? Any who rebelled were driven away to Umbar - at best.I don’t think “political dissidents” were typically subjected to escheatment, servitude, and execution in Gondor. There seems to have been an exception to this rule during the 10-year reign of Castamir the Usurper during the fifteenth century of the Third Age; but the implication is that the folk of Gondor enjoyed considerable freedom of action that people under the rule of Sauron and his allies did not. In fact, that’s exactly what I cited from LotR in post 62 (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=629491&postcount=62).

Besides, how do you think I got exiled to Núrnen?

[Gordis]

I don’t think “political dissidents” were typically subjected to escheatment, servitude, and execution in Gondor. There seems to have been an exception to this rule during the 10-year reign of Castamir the Usurper during the fifteenth century of the Third Age;
Yes and later Eldacar took his revenge and everyone who was discontent with the reign of the half-blood had to flee.
Also there is this shady matter of Queen Beruthiel and her cats - wasn't she persecuted on religious grounds?

In fact, that’s exactly what I cited from LotR in post 62 (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=629491&postcount=62).

Besides, how do you think I got exiled to Núrnen?And how did you get exiled there?;) Must be a great place by the way!

If you mean your first quote from #62, don't forget that Gandalf referred to Sauron vengeance.
...hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge.’
‘Revenge?’ said Frodo. ‘Revenge for what? I still don’t understand what all this has to do with Bilbo and myself, and our ring.’
‘It has everything to do with it,’ Sure, after meddling with the Ring the hobbits and Bagginses in particular would get harsher treatment from Sauron than normal. Maybe indeed they would become slaves in the full sense of the word.

As to your second quote: "the great slave-worked fields of Nurnen…" I see it this way. Mordor likely had very small native population of Men. This population was self-sufficient: they were able to feed themselves, but never to ensure the extensive production of crops for the army. I believe, once he settled in Mordor, Sauron simply imported slaves from tributary lands to work the fields of Nurn - and the products were used to feed all his orcs and soldiers.

[Alcuin]

Well, we definitely know what Ar-Pharazôn and Sauron did with dissidents, don’t we? They were sacrificed by Sauron in his profane temple on Númenor.