Lord of the Rings Discussion Project. Chapters II & III

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What’s happening

 Frodo and Sam have just escaped ‘The Tower of Cirith Ungol. The Watchers cry alerts Sauron’s forces who rush towards the Tower.
 Minas Tirith is besieged. The Witch King has brakes the cities gate and the Rohirrim charge. Aragorn brings the men of Lamedon and Lebennin to the battle. Aragorn raises the standard of Arwen. Theoden is slain.
 Battle under the trees in Mirkwood. Thranduil’s forces repel that of Dol Guldur and the second assault upon Lorien begins.

The Land of Shadow

Main Events

1. Sam and Frodo hear the cry of a Nazgûl while fleeing the Tower.
2. Hearing their pursuers, the hobbit’s jump of the bridge in to the plains of Morgai.
3. Frodo discards his mail shirt, not being able to carry it and wears Sam’s elven cloak.
4. The wind changes, and Frodo and Sam see a black figure returning to Mordor. As it arrives it let’s out a shrill cry, yet this cry no longer contains any note of terror.
5. Using the light Sam and Frodo use a track to find their way. The risk pays of as they find water. Sam offers to drink first in case it is poisonous.
6. The hobbits see the trackers. The large Uruk thinks that they have followed the right track, yet the ‘Snaga’ thinks that the little dwarf man and and great elf warrior went up into the hills. The small orc kills the larger Uruk and runs off out of sight.
7. We here that there is bad news from the battle and that there is a black gobbler (Gollum) somewhere around.
8. Frodo gives Sting to Sam and asks him to look after the phial.
9. The two hobbits see Sauron’s forces moving towards the Black Gate.
10. The two hobbits are captured by a horde of orcs heading towards Udûn. As a horde of Uruk charge at the Durthang line, Frodo and Sam see their chance to escape.

Mount Doom

What’s happening

 The third assault on Lorien begins.
 Aragorn dismisses the faint hearted as the Captains of the West leave Ithilien.

Main Events

1. Sam wraps up Frodo in the elven cloak, and as he does so thinks of Lorien and hopes that the cloak will keep them hidden on their journey.
2. Sam comes to realise that there will be no return and their supplies will only take them to Mount Doom, but as his hope dies he becomes stern, almost stern. As he thinks of this, his thoughts turn home to the Shire.
3. As Aragorns host burns the fields of Imlad Morgul, Sam & Frodo turn back to the road.
4. Sam notices Frodo shielding himself from some unseen blow, and his right hand slowly being drawn towards the Ring.
5. Sam tells Frodo he will help him carry the Ring. Briefly his hand towards his sword hilt as he warns Sam off.
6. Sam and Frodo cast away all of their gear. Sam is particularly tearful about having to part with his cooking gear.
7. Sam debates with himself about the course to take.
8. Sam decides that Frodo can not manage to get up the mountain by himself and resolves to carry him.
9. Sam and Frodo come to Sauron’s road from Barad-dûr to Sammath Naur.
10. Frodo calls out to Sam, as the temptation of the Ring becomes to great for him.
11. Gollum hits Sam on the head with a rock. As he looks up he sees the sight he saw at Emyn Muil, of two rivals. Frodo casts Gollum off, telling him that if he touches him ever again he will be cast into the fire. Gollum flees as Sam aims a kick at him
12. As Sam follows Frodo into Sammauth Naur he can not see, he draws out the phial of Galadriel, yet it brings forth no light.
13. Frodo claims the Ring as his own. As he does this the Nazgûl, turn from the battlefield and fly towards Mount Doom.
14. Gollum knocks Sam over and wrestles and invisible Frodo for the Ring. Gollum bites off Frodo’s finger and claims the Ring, yet in his jubilance he falls over the edge and into the Fire, destroying the Ring, and bringing and end to Sauron’s domain.
15. Frodo remembers Gandalf’s words concerning Gollum, and tells Sam that he would not have been able to destroy it without Gollum.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Key Quotes

As I lay in prison, Sam, i tried to remember the Brandywine, and Woody End, and the water running through the Mill in Hobbiton. But I can't see them now.

If I ever see the Lady again, I will tell her! Light and now water! Let me drink first, Mr Frodo.

Whose blame's that? Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour. Then it's a sort of dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together.

It's dark and we cannot use the Lady's glass. Keep it safe for me, Sam. have nowhere to keep it now, except in my hand, and I shall need both hands in the blind night. But Sting I give to you. I have got an orc-blade, but I do not think it will be my part to strike any blow again.

He [Sam] felt the cool mud about his toes as he paddled in the Pool at Bywater with Jolly Cotton and Tom and Nibs, and their sister Rosie.

Come one Mr. Frodo! I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you and it aswell.

Begone, and trouble me no more! If you ever touch me again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.

Discussion Points

1. Why did it take so long for help to arrive at Cirith Ungol. There was an important prisoner there and Sauron allowed a fight to take place there. Why was there not a Nazgûl there from the beginning?

2. Is the black figure the Witch-King or another Nazgûl bringing bad news.

3. Do you think that hearing about the great Elf Warrior would have boosted Sam's spirits?

4. Does Frodo giving Sam to Sting symbolise the 'Changing of the Guard'? Bilbo to Frodo. Frodo to Sam.

5. Did Sam know from the beginning that there wold be no return, or was this the first time he realised?

6. Is Frodo warning Sam to leave the Ring another way that Frodo has become like Bilbo?

7. Is there any parallels between Gollum debating with himself and Sam doing so. Are these two charcters more alike than they think?

8. Sam sees Gollum and Frodo as two rivals. Is Frodo Gollum as he should have been? Is Frodo turning into Gollum?

9. Does the phial of Galadriel not working symbolise that Sauron's power is greater than that of Galadriel?

10. Does Frodo's warning to Gollum have anything to do with him falling into the fire?

11. Through out these two chapters the two Hobbits think of Lorien and the Shire. Was Tolkien trying to say that these two places were the complete opposite of Mordor?

[Gordis]

Great summary, TD! :)
Extremely interesting discussion points.
My compliments, TD! :) I will be back later.

[Butterbeer]

Wotcha TD! :)

yes- excellent work. i too have no time just now other than quick looksy!
Look forward to the debate to follow!

Did the ring not want to be found by sauron, do you think - in helping sam out?

best, BB :)

[Landroval]

Did the ring not want to be found by sauron, do you think - in helping sam out?
I doubt that; in the Shadow of the past, Gandalf states that:"The Ring was trying to get back to its master." I see no reason for that to change, esspecially since the ring and Sauron were so close at that point.

[Gordis]

And here I second Landroval's opinion whole-heartedly :)

Now, I must really get back to TD's questions...

[Gordis]

Discussion Points

1. Why did it take so long for help to arrive at Cirith Ungol. There was an important prisoner there and Sauron allowed a fight to take place there. Why was there not a Nazgûl there from the beginning?
Good question. Perhaps Sauron never expected any trouble there? And he needed his nazgul on the battlefield (especially if 2-3 were away at Dol-Guldur). As for the help arriving so late, I think it was because Sauron was away at Sammath Naur. I opened a special thread for this theory.

2. Is the black figure the Witch-King or another Nazgûl bringing bad news.
Another nazgul with bad news, I have no doubt of it. The Witch-King passed entirely into the Spirit world, he couldn't become visible (even wear visible clothes anymore). I doubt he could fly on a Fell Beast anymore as well. And then in the quote about his fall at Pelennor it was said: and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.And Frodo and Sam hear a cry: As Frodo and Sam stood and gazed, the rim of light spread all along the line of the Ephel Dúath, and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West, at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ring-wraiths had met his doom. No way it could have been the WK himself.
3. Do you think that hearing about the great Elf Warrior would have boosted Sam's spirits? Yes, sure, especially given his infatuation with Elves.

4. Does Frodo giving Sam to Sting symbolise the 'Changing of the Guard'? Bilbo to Frodo. Frodo to Sam. Hmm... I think it is more like : "I won't be needing weapons anymore". Or, perhaps, by this time Frodo was constantly thinking of the Ring as a weapon far surpassing all the swords? "If I claimed the Ring, I will not need weapons anymore... All will bow to me and call me "Lord"?

5. Did Sam know from the beginning that there would be no return, or was this the first time he realised?
I think he always hoped. He was not very bright, but he always hoped for the best.

6. Is Frodo warning Sam to leave the Ring another way that Frodo has become like Bilbo? Worse than Bilbo, more like Gollum...

7. Is there any parallels between Gollum debating with himself and Sam doing so. Are these two charcters more alike than they think? Two talkative hobbits...

8. Sam sees Gollum and Frodo as two rivals. Is Frodo Gollum as he should have been? Is Frodo turning into Gollum? Frodo is mentally turning into something in-between Gollum and a Ringwraith, IMHO.

9. Does the phial of Galadriel not working symbolise that Sauron's power is greater than that of Galadriel? I think so. Good observation.

10. Does Frodo's warning to Gollum have anything to do with him falling into the fire? Yes, it was the direct cause of his fall, IMHO.

11. Through out these two chapters the two Hobbits think of Lorien and the Shire. Was Tolkien trying to say that these two places were the complete opposite of Mordor? Well, they seem to be.

In addition I have this little nitpick:
2. Hearing their pursuers, the hobbit’s jump of the bridge in to the plains of Morgai.
Morgai is the inner mountain ridge of Mordor, much lower than the Ephel Duath. And the hobbits jumped into the chasm on the lower slopes of Morgai.

[Landroval]

10. Does Frodo's warning to Gollum have anything to do with him falling into the fire? Yes, it was the direct cause of his fall, IMHO.
Direct cause?? :confused:
If anything, Tolkien said it was Frodo's pitty that made this happy ending possible.

[Gordis]

Bilbo's pity, you mean?

And what happy ending? Gollum's death? ;)

[Landroval]

Bilbo's pity, you mean?
No, Frodo's:
But at this point the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end - but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo!

[Butterbeer]

I doubt that; in the Shadow of the past, Gandalf states that:"The Ring was trying to get back to its master." I see no reason for that to change, esspecially since the ring and Sauron were so close at that point.

yes, sure - but that's Gandalf's view.

remember Tolkien sets this out as a History- but he is very clear that it is one as seen from the perspective of and by the accounts of the hobbits - and they at best second guess much of the enemy's movements, plans and thoughts ... how can they not?

Gandalf himself says he is no lore master on the One - come to that - who really was? Saruman? Hardly. But he knew considerably more than Gandalf.

To me this is the central question of this chapter - is the ring manipulating the Orcs and did it hinder rather than help the cause of "getting back to its master"??

As i say, that was an assumption only by Gandalf - he knows it himself that it could have not have been more than that.

best all, BB

[Landroval]

As i say, that was an assumption only by Gandalf - he knows it himself that it could have not have been more than that.
It's more than that:
[The ring] was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself.

[Butterbeer]

aha!!

But that's just ... Tolkien's view ... i mean really! ..what's that worth huh? :p

besides - supporting snippets can be very misleading out of context - it's like the bible anyway - you can always find other quotes somewhere that support your case, albeit in roundabout ways sometimes ... :o :D


..i'm just too lazy! ;)

But anyway, as Gor says - he was BUSY!!!... and that quote refers to Sauron's view - not the rings' ! ..

question now is: was it also the ring's wish to be "mastered" again??

note also Tolkien's point: that Sauron had "to make it" ...i.e. to "force it" ..

case closed! :p ;)

best, BB

[Gordis]

To me this is the central question of this chapter - is the ring manipulating the Orcs and did it hinder rather than help the cause of "getting back to its master"??
It may be the central question, but not of THIS chapter. It belongs to the previous one "The tower of Cirith Ungol".
Wrong thread, BB :p !

Better let us discuss TD's interesting questions...

[Butterbeer]

..you ever play darts?

(you gotta admit it was pretty close! - i was aiming for double top :p )


TD: (wotcha TD! :) )
5. Did Sam know from the beginning that there wold be no return, or was this the first time he realised?

nah, and nah. Not for me, TD.

He never really truly gives up - and he certainly never set out even considering the possibility of such a thing even remotely being an option.

best,BB

[CAB]

Very good intro and questions TD.

7. Is there any parallels between Gollum debating with himself and Sam doing so. Are these two charcters more alike than they think?
I think that maybe Tolkien was using Sam’s interior debates, in part, to show that Gollum wasn’t particularly unusual in having different sides to his personality. It could probably be argued that we all do. In Gollum, however, this was more pronounced due to the effects of the Ring. Maybe this shows that the Ring didn’t add anything to Gollum, so to speak, but merely twisted what was already there.


10. Does Frodo's warning to Gollum have anything to do with him falling into the fire? Yes, it was the direct cause of his fall, IMHO.
I’m not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that Gollum was forced to follow Frodo’s “order”?

[Gordis]

I meant these quotes:
Smeagol swore on the Ring:
'Sméagol,' said Gollum suddenly and clearly, opening his eyes wide and staring at Frodo with a strange light. 'Sméagol will swear on the Precious.'
Frodo drew himself up, and again Sam was startled by his words and his stern voice. 'On the Precious? How dare you? ' he said. 'Think!
One Ring to rule them all and in the Darkness bind them.
Would you commit your promise to that, Sméagol? It will hold you. But it is more treacherous than you are. It may twist your words. Beware!'
...For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds. Gollum raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his knees.
'Down! down! ' said Frodo. `Now speak your promise!'
`We promises, yes I promise!' said Gollum. 'I will serve the master of the Precious. Good master, good Sméagol, gollum, gollum!'

And indeed the Ring twisted his words:
`Yes, yes, to help the master: the master of the Precious. But if we was master, then we could help ourselfs, yes, and still keep promises.'

Then Frodo, understanding his intentions, said:

But I warn you, Sméagol, you are in danger.'
`Yes, yes, master! ' said Gollum. `Dreadful danger! Sméagol's bones shake to think of it, but he doesn't run away. He must help nice master.'
'I did not mean the danger that we all share,' said Frodo. 'I mean a danger to yourself alone. You swore a promise by what you call the Precious. Remember that! It will hold you to it; but it will seek a way to twist it to your own undoing. Already you are being twisted. You revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. Give it back to Sméagol you said. Do not say that again! Do not let that thought grow in you! You will never get it back. But the desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. You will never get it back. In the last need, Sméagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Sméagol!'

At Sammath Naur, Gollum broke his Oath and attacked his Master. Could an oath sworn on the mightiest object in Middle Earth be broken without retaliation? He was cast in the fire exactly as Frodo the Ringlord said.

[Gordis]

Just an additional note:
I think the Ring was not that "smart" and couldn't clearly percieve its surroundings. It felt the thoughts of the bearer and helped him, if he was not going against its REAL Master.
It helped Sam at Ungol. Sam needed to get rid of about 200 orcs: no problem, the Ring made them fight with each other in madness. It intimidated the orc he met on the stairs.
Also, those two orcs: a small one and a big one, who almost found them after their escape from the Tower. Perhaps it was the Ring that made them come to blows?

Now Frodo claimed the Ring, so it was bound to obey him more. At least against Gollum, its slave. Frodo was fighting with the creature, desiring its death. Moreover there was the Oath broken. Surely, the Ring cast Gollum into the Fire, not understanding its own peril, exactly as Frodo commanded.

[Landroval]

note also Tolkien's point: that Sauron had "to make it" ...i.e. to "force it" ..
Sauron, like Melkor, cannot make a living thing; therefore he has to 'manipulate' even the ring in whatever fashion. If there was any "will" in the ring, it was a reflection of Sauron's.
Could an oath sworn on the mightiest object in Middle Earth be broken without retaliation? He was cast in the fire exactly as Frodo the Ringlord said.
The ringlord? Only Sauron could claim that title rightfully, all the rest are bound to become slaves to it. According to letter #246, the ring would have become the master of even Gandalf.
Surely, the Ring cast Gollum into the Fire, not understanding its own peril, exactly as Frodo commanded.
According to letter #181, it was a 'grace' which brought about the eucatastrophe, the happy ending - it wasn't the most evil object. You know, for Tolkien, the ultimate eucatastrophe was the resurrection of Christ, I don't think he would swallow your interpretation.

[Gordis]

You know, for Tolkien, the ultimate eucatastrophe was the resurrection of Christ, I don't think he would swallow your interpretation.
Not that I wish to make the late Professor swallow anything. :)

Here I must stop.

[jammi567]

nice intro and discusion points Telcontar_Dunedain. And i've got a question for you:

"Before it (gollum) stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.
'Begone, and truble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'"

i'm not sure whether it's been on other threads before, but is the voice the Ring manifesting its thoughts (esentually Sauron's) through Frodo, or is it Frodo's own thoughts enlarged by the wound and carrying it for over 20 years? Or is it Frodo reminding Gollum of the promice he made, "You swore a promise by what you call the Precious", but with more power because a) it's so near its place of making and b) Frodo is so weak that the Ring is essentually thinking that if Frodo can getrid of Gollum, he can make his own way to Sauron without being interupted.

And what is the significance of white in this particular section?

p.s hope that made sense. :) :D

[Earniel]

1. Why did it take so long for help to arrive at Cirith Ungol. There was an important prisoner there and Sauron allowed a fight to take place there. Why was there not a Nazgûl there from the beginning?
I dare say even communication takes a while to filter through to Sauron. He's got a huge empire to run, and that means a considerable red tape to get through. And right now Sauron's attention is drawn to his Gondorean campaign so he would probably leave other things such as spies to lower levels of command. And the in-fighting in Cirith Ungol took place in matter of hours. I'd say the Nazgul arrived very quickly as it did. It was just out of luck that the Hobbits, clad in grey, and in a dark night, had just left the tower when it arrived.

Is the black figure the Witch-King or another Nazgûl bringing bad news.
I'm guessing another Nazgûl, bearing orders.

Do you think that hearing about the great Elf Warrior would have boosted Sam's spirits?
If it didn't, the little orc running away on the stairs must have. :D

Does Frodo giving Sam to Sting symbolise the 'Changing of the Guard'? Bilbo to Frodo. Frodo to Sam.
Not really, for one, the most important bit, the Ring, doesn't change hands anymore. Frodo is just shedding the weight of other things to concentrate solely on bearing the Ring. Sam also carries Galadriel's phial, the blanket, cooking materials and the lembas store.

5. Did Sam know from the beginning that there wold be no return, or was this the first time he realised?
I think this was pretty much the first time he started realising it for real. He may have had an inkling before, but I doubt his common Hobbity optimism gave it much thought before.

Is there any parallels between Gollum debating with himself and Sam doing so. Are these two charcters more alike than they think?
Interesting comparison. In Gollum the second voice seemed to be his longing for the Ring. Sam considers his second voice to be despair. Gollum listens to other voice, appearing to be unable to stop debating with it. Sam tries to ignore it most of the time.

Through out these two chapters the two Hobbits think of Lorien and the Shire. Was Tolkien trying to say that these two places were the complete opposite of Mordor?
If you read the description of Mordor, there is not a place I can think of that can be more desolate than that. I can easily imagine thinking of better places instead, which the Hobbits do. Its interesting to note that Sam can still imagine the peace and beauty of the Shire, whereas Frodo can hardly remember them.

yes, sure - but that's Gandalf's view.

remember Tolkien sets this out as a History- but he is very clear that it is one as seen from the perspective of and by the accounts of the hobbits - and they at best second guess much of the enemy's movements, plans and thoughts ... how can they not?
Tolkien did set the stories out as a narrative of history, but considering his sometimes lapses in consistancy, I think he did not keep that always in mind and that sometimes things that are told are not just somebody's opinion of the events, but the way Tolkien wanted the events to actually happen.

At Sammath Naur, Gollum broke his Oath and attacked his Master. Could an oath sworn on the mightiest object in Middle Earth be broken without retaliation? He was cast in the fire exactly as Frodo the Ringlord said.
But Frodo no longer controlled the Ring at the moment that Gollum took a dive into the volcano. So I don't think Gollum's fall was Frodo's doing. I'm more inclined to think that Frodo's words earlier were inspired by some unconcious foresight of fire.

But it's an interesting idea you bring up. Did the Ring influence Gollum to fall because he had broken the very promise he had sworn on it? If so, the Ring procured its own demise. This would seem to indicate that the Ring is capable of some pre-defined actions, like influencing people and furfilling statements of its bearer, (a bit like a programmed computer) but not with thinking such things through.

[Gordis]

I'd say the Nazgul arrived very quickly as it did. It was just out of luck that the Hobbits, clad in grey, and in a dark night, had just left the tower when it arrived.
It? IT? You call the nazgul IT? Grrr...:mad: :D

[Earniel]

Well, the defining bits are no longer quite visible, are they? ;)

[Gordis]

Visible enough to call us ... at least "they".:evil: :p