The Ban - why?

[Gordis]

I would like to hear your opinon on the Ban of the Valar, the Ban to sail West from Numenor and to approach Valinor.

Why was it needed?
Why couldn't Numenoreans visit Valinor?

[brownjenkins]

I think they were afraid the Numenoreans would envy the beauty and eternal beauty of Valinor and this might somehow lessen their appreciation for the rest of middle earth. Though most of the blame for that can be laid at the feet of the Valar for choosing to stay so removed and on Eru for being so vague with his creations about what their existance was really about. A common mistake made by creator-types. :D

In retrospect, I think the Valar might have been better served remaining more active throughout middle earth. That way humans would better understand the pros and cons of eternal existance.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I would say to prevent what happened happening. I don't think Valinor provided immortality (it was being discussed somewhere), so the Numenoreans would have still blamed the Valar from withholding immortality from them.

[Earniel]

Personally I think the Valar realised they made a mistake earlier to bring all the Elves they could find to Valinor and leave the rest of Middle-earth to itself. A mistake they didn't want to make with the Second-born as well.

Middle-earth was made for the Children of Eru, for them to live. If the Númenoreans also came to Valinor they most likely became too enamoured with it. They had to be able to go their own way, discover what shores and mysteries Middle-earth held, not Valinor.

[Gordis]

Personally I think the Valar realised they made a mistake earlier to bring all the Elves they could find to Valinor and leave the rest of Middle-earth to itself. A mistake they didn't want to make with the Second-born as well.
But they did it already with the Second-born as well! They have taken the best of Men away on a safe island, causing the Dark years in ME.

If the Númenoreans also came to Valinor they most likely became too enamoured with it. They had to be able to go their own way, discover what shores and mysteries Middle-earth held, not Valinor
They could have been accorded a tourist visa, not residence permits, could they? :D

[Gordis]

I would say to prevent what happened happening. I don't think Valinor provided immortality (it was being discussed somewhere), so the Numenoreans would have still blamed the Valar from withholding immortality from them.

The Ban actually caused the first murmurs in Numenor, even before there had been the issue with immortality. And since we have mastered all seas, and no water is so wild or so wide that our ships cannot overcome it, why should we not go to Avallónë and greet there our friends?'-Akkalabeth


Just think on it: The Valar through their messengers assure Kings Ciryatan and Atanamir, that there is no immortality for Men in Valinor. They could have proved their words by allowing Men to visit and find it out themselves. But no, no admittance.
Why? Nobody understands. Soon whispers start: they don't want us to become immortal. And when almost everybody believes that, Sauron comes.
But they "fell" again - because of a Ban, or prohibition, inevitably.L #155

[Rían]

I would like to hear your opinon on the Ban of the Valar, the Ban to sail West from Numenor and to approach Valinor.

Why was it needed?
Why couldn't Numenoreans visit Valinor?

I think it's along the same reasons as why I can't keep See's chocolates in my house. Someone could say, "I'll bring over a pound of See's chocolates to Rian's house - she doesn't have to eat them, she can just look at them."

Well, fat chance! (literally) I can avoid BUYING chocolates, but if they're here, it's very hard to avoid EATING them, even though I know they're bad for me.

As was discussed in another thread, Valinor would destroy humans if they stayed there. I think humans, if they were allowed to visit, couldn't avoid staying there, just like I can't avoid eating chocolates if they're in my house. And that would destroy them.

[Gordis]

If we continue chocolate example:

Suppose the Valar bring you a ton of best chocolate - you eat ... well ..3-10 kilos :eek: and then, I assure you, you won't be able to look at chocolates for a VERY long time. :p :D

Numenor was a fair place, but still the people become restless. That is the way of Men. They wouldn't be sitting idly in the bliss of Valinor, once they discover that it doesn't give them immortality. They will see, that the place is beautiful, but very dull. :p One must be a Vanya Elf to appreciate it. Humans will soon grow sick of it.

[Rían]

You underestimate the power of desire! :D

Humans may grow sick of it, but somehow, I don't think that would make them leave. The fear of death would keep them there, I think ...

[Earniel]

But they did it already with the Second-born as well! They have taken the best of Men away on a safe island, causing the Dark years in ME.
But the Edain still could travel freely between Númenor and Middle-earth, a privilege the Eldar didn't even have in their Age of Dominion. (I'm told it's always easier being the youngest child in a family, you freely get permission for things your older sibling had to beg his/her parents for. Of course I wouldn't know, being the youngest myself. :p)

It may well be that the Valar intended for the three clans of Edain to be the teachers and protectors for the rest of the Men in Middle-earth. And seen as much of the land west of the Blue Mountains was destroyed, it seems logical the Valar provided the Edain a safe home. Within the bounds of Númenor the Edain could regain strength and numbers they lost during the dark years of the First Age.

I sincerely doubt the Valar intended the rest of Middle-earth to experience dark times. Maybe the Valar didn't forsee Sauron rising so soon again. Or if they did, and wanted to limit their own interventions (seen the damage it did to the country the last time) they may have counted on Númenor to become strong enough to be able to defeat Sauron without help from Valinor from now on. Númenor did eventually prove strong enough for Sauron to realise he wouldn't be able to stop them by force.

In the general designs of things, I think the Valar reckoned it in the end is better for a child to learn to fight its own battles, then have its warden or parent fight them for him.

The Valar made sure Númenor knew the arts of sailing and loved the sea so much they would never hole up in Númenor and never think about the Eastern shores of the world. In this, at least the, Valar didn't make the same mistake again as they made with the Eldar. Instead, sadly, they made some new ones...

[CAB]

There have been a lot of good suggestions already. I have one I would like to make. I certainly don’t think it was the Valar’s main reason, but it may have been part of their motivation or even just a bonus (for the Valar).

Maybe they didn’t want to associate with Men. When they were walking in their gardens or gazing out their windows at their perfect trees, and perfect lawns, and perfect everything else they didn’t want imperfect Men messing up the view. This may seem a little selfish, but so do many of the Valar’s actions (or inactions).

[Gordis]

I think you hit the correct explanation, CAB. :) It is exactly like with the Elves in the First Age. They understood pretty soon that they just couldn't live in the same settlement with Men. :D

The Valar were selfish and they were utterly unable to understand humans. The prohibited fruit is SOO sweet! ;)

[Earniel]

The Valar disliking the Secondborn would be contrary to Tolkien's beliefs and themes so I would find that highly unlikely. It's not because you value beauty that you value everything by beauty's standard.

I'm sure the Valar saw more in Men than we see in ourselves, after all, we are the ones that stare ourselves blind on beauty and immortality, often losing sight of the things we do possess instead.

Furthermore, the Silmarillion gives enough examples of the Elves being far less than perfect too. They gave the Valar quite some grief but the Valar never disliked the Elves for it.

No, I think you can blame the Valar for many faults, but disliking or looking down on Men isn't among them.

Not understanding Men, that's quite another thing. The Valar were amazed by the appearance of the Children of Eru. They know how the plants, the earth, the birds in the sky worked because they had made them. But the Children of Eru: Men, Elves (and eventually Dwarves) were not from their thoughts but from Iluvatar.

[Gordis]

The Valar disliking the Secondborn would be contrary to Tolkien's beliefs and themes so I would find that highly unlikely. It's not because you value beauty that you value everything by beauty's standard.
Earniel, I didn't mean that Valar or the Elves hated Men. But they were wary of them from the start, and they never settled together. Some men were admitted into the Elven realms to serve Finrod or other Elven Lords, but none really dwelt there with their families. The two races were simply incompatible at a long run.

Of Morgoth's dealings with Men the Eldar indeed knew nothing, at that time, and learnt but little afterwards; but that a darkness lay upon the hearts of Men (as the shadow of the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor) they perceived clearly even in the people of the Elf-friends whom they first knew.

Now the Green-elves of Ossiriand were troubled by the coming of Men, and when they heard that a lord of the Eldar from over the Sea was among them they sent messengers to Felagund. 'Lord,' they said, 'if you have power over these newcomers, bid them return by the ways that they came, or else to go forward. For we desire no strangers in this land to break the peace in which we live. And these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.'


Not understanding Men, that's quite another thing. The Valar were amazed by the appearance of the Children of Eru. They know how the plants, the earth, the birds in the sky worked because they had made them. But the Children of Eru: Men, Elves (and eventually Dwarves) were not from their thoughts but from Iluvatar.
I think this passage is revealing:
Arwen: "But I say to you, King of the Númenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."

[Earniel]

Oh, I know you didn't mean that. :) I didn't use 'hated' either, just 'dislike'.

But I agree about the incompatibility. I wonder whether that was Eru's design or a result of Arda Marred.

Oh, and I think the Green Elves of Ossiriand were about the most xenophobic of the whole lot, but that's another discussion, I think. :p

[CAB]

Maybe I am just too cynical, but I can’t see the Valar as being quite so noble as some think. I believe they were just as interested in their own lives as the lives of the Children of Iluvatar.

Consider why the Valar brought the Elves to Valinor.
But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk; and they were filled moreover with the love of the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship. -Of the Coming of the Elves, The Silmarillion
So the Valar wanted the beauty of the Elves near themselves. But they were also concerned about what would happen to the Elves if they were left in Middle Earth, right? So what aid and guidance did they give to the Elves who elected to remain behind? None.

How about the creation of Tol Eressea. While journeying to Valinor, the Teleri asked Ulmo to “stay their voyage” so that they could remain in contact with Osse (who was “ill-pleased that the voices of the Teleri should be heard no more in his domain”). This is what the Teleri wanted. Surely they were safe from the perils of Middle Earth here. But what was the Valar’s reaction?
They were “ill-pleased”.

Think about the creation of the Ents. Yavanna seemed to be more concerned with protecting her work than allowing the Children free reign in Middle Earth.
‘Shall nothing I have devised be free from the dominion of others?’ -Yavanna to Manwe, The Silmarillion

Also, I don’t see why the Valar couldn't be fascinated by and care for Men but not want them in the immediate vicinity. As an example, I consider spiders fascinating and I certainly don’t despise them, but I don’t really want them in my house either.

I am not arguing that the Valar were terrible or evil beings. I just think they were quite similar to us. They had their own lives to live. Weren’t they actually Children of Iluvatar too (minus the title, of course)?

[Wayfarer]

I see the treatment of Men as a result of several mistakes that built upon one another.

The creation of Valinor was itself the Valar's biggest mistake - they abrogated their duties as stewards and guardians of Middle Earth, in order to create a haven for themselves where they were safe and didn't have to deal with the conflict Melkor caused. They were hiding.

Because they Valar were hidden away on their own paradise removed from the rest of the world, they began hoarding all the good stuff that had been meant to be shared with an entire world - look at the Two Trees, for example. A lot is made of the fact that, oh, gasp, they were so beautiful - but you don't hear as much about the fact that the Valar kept the only light source in Middle Earth for themselves and left the rest of the world in darkness for Melkor to play with..

When the Elves show up, the Valar continue to screw up - they're enthralled by the Elves to the point that they actually go out and do something. In fact they bring Melkor to his knees, and if they wanted to they could have made the world safe for inhabitation again. Instead, they grab their new toys and go running back to their little clubhouse.

Which brings me to the reason why Humans weren't allowed - it's not so much that the Valar didn't like humans, but that Humans weren't capable of living in Valinar. Going there wouldn't have made them immortal, it would have killed them. Their senses would have burned out as they overdosed on... life. The Valar, of course, were too selfish to do the right thing and change things to give a little more equitable balance of coolness.

That's why Bilbo and Frodo go to Valinor to die. It's the equivilent of putting a terminally ill patient on drugs to ease their passing - sure, the drugs might be unhealthy, but they're going to die anyway.

[Gordis]

Amen to that Wayfarer!

Actually Irmo did use poppeys in his deam gardens... So "being on drugs" could be correct even literally.

http://allor.ramot.ru/images/humor/lost3.jpg
Poppeys in Lorien. Illustration to the "Book of Lost Tales" by Allor :) :D


Thank you, everybody who took part in this most interesting discussion :)

[Butterbeer]

I would like to hear your opinon on the Ban of the Valar, the Ban to sail West from Numenor and to approach Valinor.

Why was it needed?
Why couldn't Numenoreans visit Valinor?


..er ..Gor - last time i was around: weren't we Banned from discussing this???

course that was the ban of the Val ... :D

Wotcha! Val - how ya diddling? :) ;)

hmm - ain't got time to read this just yet - but i look forward to joining in one day soonish!

but very off the top of me head: ;)


... maybe they were affraid of the common cold, or bird flu?

... or man's bad taste in haircuts?

... or that man would bring over bad-taste and wall-cladding or net curtains?

maybe they were really no Valar at all - it was all some wizard of Oz type bloke in a room full of levers?

... maybe the Numenoreans were the Chavs of the western world, and the Valar were a bit uppitty or snobbish?

personally i think it was because they smelt of garlic ... but that's just my view ... :D

best all, BB

[The Gaffer]

Think of em like lottery winners, guzzling chip butties and Diamond White at Glyndebourne, shouting at each other across the royal box. ( :eek: )

Or pikeys setting up their caravans in the Garden of Eden?

So, The Valar = Daily Mail readers? Cut their benefits, ban singing the National Anthem in Spanish, etc.

Actually, no, far less extreme than that. They just dumped a mountain on their heads.

[Gordis]

..er ..Gor - last time i was around: weren't we Banned from discussing this???

We were "banned" from discussing this in the LOTR discussion thread because it was off-topic. :) You know it as well as I do, BB. :p

[CAB]

A better question might be: how would the vision and unfolding of the world have been if Melkor had not caused discord in the music.
Sister Golden Hair recently posed this question in the Eru/Fate thread. I think it applies to the discussion in this thread.

I have been wondering for a while if Men would actually “burn out” faster in Valinor than in Middle Earth. What evidence do we have for this? When Men first reach Beleriand, and came into contact with Valinorean Elves, their life spans actually increased. No doubt most of the reason for this was wisdom gained from the Noldor and Grey Elves. But if living among powerful immortals, in the lands that they have made their own, caused Men to age more quickly, then maybe this increase in knowledge would have been offset in regards to life span.

I believe Sister Golden Hair’s question brings up a better argument though. If Melkor hadn’t put evil in the world, then wouldn’t Middle Earth have been very similar to Valinor. Not exactly the same, of course, but quite possibly equally umm...grand.

Would Men die more quickly in this Middle Earth? Or, maybe Melkor’s marring is the reason that Men would weary early in Valinor and, obviously, this marring wouldn’t exist in an evil-free Middle Earth. I think it is clear that these questions tie into the Ban discussion.

[jammi567]

i'm not sure whether this has been mentened already or not, but i think the Valar put the ban on them because they had some forehand knowledge that they knew Mens lusts would make them want immortality for themselves if they saw what they coud do if they were immortal. Also, it might be almost like gollums and bilbos experiences when they had the Ring for a long time.

[Gordis]

Interesting question, CAB.

It may be a heresy, but I think that without Melkor's discord there would be no place fit for Men to live. All the ME would have been like Valinor. One has to be a Vania Elf to like this at a long run. Even Noldor grew sick of it. And Men were completely unsuitable for a static world.

So, only thanks to Melkor, and later Sauron the World of Men came into being. :evil:

By the way, have you noticed that about Vaniar? They are called "wise" but it mostly means "obedient", it seems.

[Earniel]

It may be a heresy, but I think that without Melkor's discord there would be no place fit for Men to live. All the ME would have been like Valinor. One has to be a Vania Elf to like this at a long run. Even Noldor grew sick of it. And Men were completely unsuitable for a static world.
Not necesarily, I think. Valinor got a bit spoilt for attention when the Valar withdrew to it. The whole of Arda had a lot more ground to cover so the 'sparkliness' would have been a lot more spread around and diffused. If they wanted to make the whole of Arda in Valinor's image in the first place, which I personally doubt.

Valinor was primarily meant as a dwelling for the Valar themselves, not for Elves or Men. If you run a hotel you will furnish your rooms according to the wants and needs of your guests, your own personal quarters on the other hand can be as much to your personal taste as you want them to.

[Landroval]

I have been wondering for a while if Men would actually “burn out” faster in Valinor than in Middle Earth.
No; they would be more protected from the marring of Melkor while in Aman; but the power of the valar can't modify their lifespan.
If Melkor hadn’t put evil in the world, then wouldn’t Middle Earth have been very similar to Valinor. Not exactly the same, of course, but quite possibly equally umm...grand.
I agree:
Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there naught faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
There is a more relevant passage about the similarity of Aman with Arda Unmarred, I think in Myths Transformed I believe, I hope I shall find it.
Or, maybe Melkor’s marring is the reason that Men would weary early in Valinor and, obviously, this marring wouldn’t exist in an evil-free Middle Earth
Men don't actually wear out more quickly in the blessed realms; they only perceive that their lifespan is less than that of most (if not all) of the other beings there, who age in accordance with the valian time units, not those of the sun.
i think the Valar put the ban on them because they had some forehand knowledge that they knew Mens lusts would make them want immortality for themselves if they saw what they coud do if they were immortal
Much of what Men thought living in Aman would give them was a deceit from Sauron.
No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the Númenóreans they said that they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright'.
It may be a heresy, but I think that without Melkor's discord there would be no place fit for Men to live
Living in a Aman-like Middle-Earth would be unfit for Men only if the "blessing of Aman" (unweariness of the body) was granted to them. In that case, the Man would suffer greatly or would become beast-like. But this "blessing of Aman" was given only to the elves, who had a different kind of hroa and destiny.
By the way, have you noticed that about Vaniar? They are called "wise" but it mostly means "obedient", it seems.
As a side note, Manwe listening to Eru is stated by Tolkien to be more than wisdom.

[CAB]

By the way, have you noticed that about Vaniar? They are called "wise" but it mostly means "obedient", it seems.
Yes, but I suppose that both descriptions could be accurate in this case. They did manage to avoid most of the trouble (except the War of Wrath) that other Elves and Men found themselves in.