Were Miriel and Pharazon in love?

[Gordis]

And it came to pass that Tar-Palantir grew weary of grief and died. He had no son, but a daughter only, whom he named MÃ*riel in the Elven-tongue; and to her now by right and the laws of the Númenóreans came the sceptre. But Pharazôn took her to wife against her will, doing evil in this and evil also in that the laws of Númenor did not permit the marriage, even in the royal house, of those more nearly akin than cousins in the second degree. And when they were wedded, he seized the sceptre into his own hand, taking the title of Ar-Pharazôn (Tar-Calion in the Elven-tongue); and the name of his queen he changed to Ar-Zimraphel. - Akkalabeth

One would suppose reading the above, that the evil Pharazon has forced poor orphaned Miriel into a hateful marriage and later held her almost as a captive. :(

But was it so indeed?

Have you noticed that Miriel, born in 3117, when marrying Pharazon, in 3255, was already 138 years old?!
No wonder they had no children. Their ancient foremother Tar-Ancalime, the first Ruling Queen of Numernor, married at 127, just for it not to be too late to bear children. And at this time royals lived up to 400, not to 200, as at the time of the Downfall. It is like marrying at 60 in modern times.

Now, why didn't Miriel marry someone earlier, in due time? Why didn't Tat-Palantir marry his daughter to somebody, say to Amandil of Andunie, to get a "faithful" heir and to thwart Pharazon's hopes for the throne?

The same for Ar-Pharazon. He could have married someone before he reached 137, which was, of course, fairly late.

I say there is a strong possibility that these two DID love each other, only, being first cousins, they couldn't get Tar-Parantir's permission to marry. I see it as an only reason why Miriel remained unwed.

Tar Palantir was Faithful and a prophet. He was like a King of Old, before the Shadow fell on Numenor, safe in one thing: he didn't lie down his life willingly, but ruled till the hour of his death. Why?
I believe he knew of his daughter's love for Pharazon her cousin, and foresaw that right after his death, the ambitious Parazon would easily "persuade" Miriel to marry him. And he failed to make her marry someone else... So he clung to life.

And indeed, after the King's death, they married almost instantly. Of course, it is said that it was "against her will", but it might refer only to the fact that she was awed to break the laws of Numenor marrying her first cousin.

And note, there was no rebellion of the Faithful. Imagine, someone forces their Rightful Queen, and Faithful to boot into an undesired marriage? I believe Amandil and K would have tried to deliver her. But no, it seems she overcame her "faitheful "fear of the incest and agreed all too willingly at the end. :evil:

Actually, for Pharazon to get the Sceptre, there was no real necessity to marry his cousin Miriel. Pharazôn son of Gimilkhâd (Tar-Palantir's younger brother), was Miriel's heir anyway, second in line for the Succession at the time when Tar-Palantir died. He could have made her abdicate in his favour (in favour of her cousin, the next heir), as often older sisters did in favour of their younger brothers.
But still, Pharazon married her, and made her his Queen, even without hope for children. Why?
Perhaps because he loved her. ;)

And it was never said that there was no love between them, like for instance in the entry about Inzilbeth and Ar- Gimilzor: " Gimilzôr took her to wife, though this was little to her liking, for she was in heart one of the Faithful, being taught by her mother; but the kings and their sons were grown proud and not to be gainsaid in their wishes. No love was there between Ar-Gimilzôr and his queen, or between their sons. -Akkalabeth"

Nothing such about Pharazon and Miriel.
Neither is it said that she ever opposed Pharazon's deeds. It seems after her marriage, she stopped being Faithful, even in heart. She repented only at the last moment: And last of all the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-MÃ*riel the Queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls. Too late she strove to ascend the steep ways of the Meneltarma to the holy place; for the waters overtook her, and her cry was lost in the roaring of the wind.

[CAB]

I think you are right that this is a definite possibility. There is also the fact that Pharazon could be very close to members of the Faithful. He and Amandil were apparently very good friends for a time.

[Gordis]

Good point, CAB.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think you are right that this is a definite possibility. There is also the fact that Pharazon could be very close to members of the Faithful. He and Amandil were apparently very good friends for a time.

Well Amandil was one of the King's closest counsellor until Sauron completley corrupted him.

[Gordis]

And Amandil still remained the King's counselor and even a friend after Pharazon "forced" Miriel into the marriage. I think it shows something.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

I'm very new, and not entirely familiar with the thread, but I wished to express:

NO.

Miriel was Tar-Palantir's daughter and was hardly an idiot. Pharazon, in my opinion, married her so that he could easily subdue her, lest she become a greater political threat. Of course, if that had been the full reason and he really DID hate her, he could easily have ordered Atanamir to marry her. So, there may have been a little lust on Ar-Pharazon's part (because we're all fairly sure that he was not above temptation) but never love.

[jammi567]

interesting. because i somewhat agree with you. what if he married her to get to the throne, so that he could plan to attack Sauron, without having to go through whatever needed to go through.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

I had thought about that as well, but I'm not sure precisely how they handled inheritance in Numenor. Does anyone know if marrying Miriel promoted Pharazon's status, or if he simply married her and then usurped the throne?

[Voronwen]

She repented only at the last moment
Interesting thoughts...

I always thought that perhaps there was neither love (in the romantic sense) nor hatred (or even strong dislike) between them. I believe that their marriage was more likely an unemotional agreement - one that Pharazôn was able to persuade her into - a sort of 'marriage of convenience'. At this time one would think that MÃ*riel had a lot on her mind and was distraught, and as such would be in a position psychologically to be vulnerable to persuasion - especially if she was led to believe somehow that it was the right thing to do and that the outcome might benefit her country.

So as to whether they "loved" one another in the way that most married couples do - I don't think so. I think it was more like a business partnership. I can imagine them living far from one another even within the palace complex of Armenelos, and MÃ*riel probably keeping to herself most of the time, while Pharazôn was off doing his thing. I imagine that MÃ*riel was simply resigned to it as her fate and the way things had to be.

[Gordis]

Ahh... what an old thread - My OP had been written before I read HOME 12 "Peoples of ME".

Actually I was right.:)
There was quite an interesting love story between Pharazon and Miriel, unfortunately not included in the Silm. It had much more depth than the trite tale of forced marriage.

As I now have HOME 12, I will post the relevant paragraph of the new story:

He [Ar-Pharazon] was a man of great beauty and strength/stature after the image of the first kings, and indeed in his youth was not unlike the Edain of old in mind also, though he had strength of will rather than of wisdom as after appeared, when he was corrupted by the counsels of his father and the acclaim of the people. In his earlier days he had a close friendship with Amandil who was afterwards Lord of Andunie, and he had loved the people of the House of Valandil with whom he had kinship (through Inzilbeth his father's mother). With them he was often a guest, and there came Zimrahil his cousin, daughter of Inziladun who was later King Tar-Palantir. Elentir the brother of Amandil loved her, but when first she saw Pharazon her eyes and her heart were turned to him, for his beauty, and for his wealth also. But he went away and she remained unwed. And now it came to pass that her father Tar-Palantir grew weary of grief and died, and as he had no son the sceptre came to her, in the name of Tar-Miriel, by right and the laws of the Numenoreans. But Pharazon [?arose) and came to her, and she was glad, and forsook the allegiance of her father for the time, being enamoured of Pharazon.
And in this they broke the laws of Numenor that forbade marriage even in the royal house between those more nearly akin than cousins in the second degree. But they were too powerful for any to gainsay them. And when they were wedded she yielded the sceptre to Pharazon, and he sat upon the throne of Elros in the name of Ar- Pharazon the Golden, but she retained also her title as hers by right, and was called Ar-Zimrahil

I simply love it - if Tolkien only had time to write it down in full! It could have been even better than Eldarion and Erendis, and so romantic on one hand and realistic on the other.

[Earniel]

I think the concept of Miriel marrying Ar-Pharazon willingly is present, but as Tolkien's first vision. Later he leans over to the concept of her being forced both in marriage and in resigning her rightful rulership, but it would seem he did not have the time to re-write all traces of this first concept.

I would agree that in Tolkien's first vision, Miriel did indeed love Ar-Pharazon. None -or precious few- of the Ruling Queens of Númenor showed much interest in actually ruling. Miriel seems likewise, and it would appear she had no problem with Ar-Pharazon ruling in her stead. I'm pretty sure Ar-Pharazon was a dashing man, capable of being charming when he needed to. Very likely not a bad catch at all. At least he didn't go gallavanting on the seven seas quite that often. (I'm looking at you here, Aldarion...)

But whether Ar-Pharazon actually loved Miriel in return remains the question. He was a very ambitious man, I would hazard the guess he was more interested in the position a marriage with Miriel provided, than her, although I'm sure he considered her a nice perk to effective Kingship. Then again, if he did love her, it would make a nicely added depth to a character that otherwise can turn stereotypical pretty fast.

And Amandil still remained the King's counselor and even a friend after Pharazon "forced" Miriel into the marriage. I think it shows something.
I think it shows more that the Faithful like Amandil had to thread very, very carefully, in a land with a vast majority of 'King's men'.

[Voronwen]

Oh, wow!! Thank you Gordis for sharing that bit. :) Interesting indeed.

But whether Ar-Pharazon actually loved Miriel in return remains the question. He was a very ambitious man, I would hazard the guess he was more interested in the position a marriage with Miriel provided, than her, although I'm sure he considered her a nice perk to effective Kingship. Then again, if he did love her, it would make a nicely added depth to a character that otherwise can turn stereotypical pretty fast.


It is too bad that the rest of this story was not written. As always i wish there was more in the way of full stories written about Second Age Numenoreans. But there's so much fertile ground here for our imaginations... and perhaps for other writers to work with! ;)

[Gordis]

I think the concept of Miriel marrying Ar-Pharazon willingly is present, but as Tolkien's first vision. Later he leans over to the concept of her being forced both in marriage and in resigning her rightful rulership, but it would seem he did not have the time to re-write all traces of this first concept.
Even Chris Tolkien was at a loss as to whether his father had abandoned this story or simply had not developed it enough:
It would be natural to suppose that [...] in that case it would have to be concluded that my father discarded this story of the love of Amandil's brother Elentir for Zimrahil, and of her turning away from him and from the Elf-friends and glad acceptance of Pharazon, before writing the final version. But I doubt that this was the case. HOME 12 :confused:
In general in his last years Tolkien indeed had a tendency to make his good guys whiter and fluffier (take for instance the sugar-coated version of Galadriel and her precious Teleporno:D), and the bad guys darker and eviler. So who knows?

I much prefer the forbidden love story for the reasons given above.

None -or precious few- of the Ruling Queens of Númenor showed much interest in actually ruling. There is no such tendency. There were but three ruling Queens before Miriel:
1.Ancalimë the horrible shrew, who would have murdered for the Scepter
2.Telperien (of whom I always think as a version of Elizabeth I of England) who deprived her brother of the Scepter and ruled till the last year of her life
3.Vanimeldë, who loved only music and dancing and happily let her husband rule in her stead.

Miriel may indeed have been similar to Vanimeldë in character
.
It would appear she had no problem with Ar-Pharazon ruling in her stead. Ah, but here lies the problem. If she were indeed Faithful, a worthy daughter of her "saintly" father Tar-Palantir, she was honor-bound to prevent Gimilkhad's son to revert all the policy back to the evil times of Ar-Gimilzor, their common granddad. It was not simply a matter of laying all the burdens of kinship on the strong shoulders of her husband, as in Vanimeldë's case, it was a betrayal of the Cause of the Faithful.

I'm pretty sure Ar-Pharazon was a dashing man, capable of being charming when he needed to. Very likely not a bad catch at all. At least he didn't go gallavanting on the seven seas quite that often. (I'm looking at you here, Aldarion...)
A mighty good catch, no doubt. :cool: Not like this pitiful Elentir. What happened to the guy, by the way? Elendil's uncle is never mentioned elsewhere: it seems he had never made it out of the drowned Numenor. Did he sail with the Armada, I wonder?

But whether Ar-Pharazon actually loved Miriel in return remains the question. He was a very ambitious man, I would hazard the guess he was more interested in the position a marriage with Miriel provided, than her, although I'm sure he considered her a nice perk to effective Kingship. Then again, if he did love her, it would make a nicely added depth to a character that otherwise can turn stereotypical pretty fast.I think he loved her - at least to an extent. Numenoreans in general don't seem to be people much given to all-consuming selfless love: no one has ever married far beneath himself, or did any follies because of love. At least it is not recorded:p

[Earniel]

I much prefer the forbidden love story for the reasons given above.
It definitely makes a more juicy story.

There is no such tendency. There were but three ruling Queens before Miriel:
1.Ancalimë the horrible shrew, who would have murdered for the Scepter
2.Telperien (of whom I always think as a version of Elizabeth I of England) who deprived her brother of the Scepter and ruled till the last year of her life
3.Vanimeldë, who loved only music and dancing and happily let her husband rule in her stead.
Well, I would have said that Ancalimë was more interested in getting her way than in actually ruling. She just happened to be the King's only child. But I did temporarily forget about Telperien.

Ah, but here lies the problem. If she were indeed Faithful, a worthy daughter of her "saintly" father Tar-Palantir, she was honor-bound to prevent Gimilkhad's son to revert all the policy back to the evil times of Ar-Gimilzor, their common granddad. It was not simply a matter of laying all the burdens of kinship on the strong shoulders of her husband, as in Vanimeldë's case, it was a betrayal of the Cause of the Faithful.
It depends, I think. I think there are degrees in Faithfulness just as you can have degrees of religion of any kind. It is not impossible she deemed it too late for a return to the old values. Her father had tried, and had not really accomplished anything lasting in that area. I think a large portion of his failure was that the majority of his people were no longer happy with the Valar-worship. We know that Ar-Pharazon's course led to disaster, but maybe Miriel hoped for a sort of tolerance between Faithful and non-Faithful to develop.

One could put forth the hypothesis that maybe she didn't really know what went on in Númenor behind her back. Suppose she trusted her husband to do the right thing, and kept to her own interests that didn't lead her into much contact with her subjects. And that maybe at the last moment, when she saw Númenor crumbling under her feet that she realised that Ar-Pharazon had kept her in the dark and that things weren't quite that well.

This is not an hypothesis I believe, but there is as little definite information on what Miriel really thought than there is on Ar-Pharazon.

A mighty good catch, no doubt. :cool: Not like this pitiful Elentir. What happened to the guy, by the way? Elendil's uncle is never mentioned elsewhere: it seems he had never made it out of the drowned Numenor. Did he sail with the Armada, I wonder?
I dunno, Elentir may have been a swell guy, but maybe not that suave at parties? Or maybe just not her type. I had the feeling Tolkien planned to have the guy deleted from the story all together, but I suppose storywise, if Elentir still had any feelings for Miriel, he might have stayed in Númenor for her. Possibly having a mis-guided idea that he still had a chance to save her. Or maybe he just kept waiting for his brother to come home.

I think he loved her - at least to an extent. Numenoreans in general don't seem to be people much given to all-consuming selfless love: no one has ever married far beneath himself, or did any follies because of love. At least it is not recorded:p
I'm sure there will be a good number of kings and queens who will be glad that that sort of information and records drowned with Númenor. ;)

[Voronwen]

I dunno, Elentir may have been a swell guy, but maybe not that suave at parties? Or maybe just not her type.
Well, as it often happens in real life when we're young, we silly girls ignore those 'nice guys' to go instead with the jerks :rolleyes: I guess that was Miriel's mistake, too! She had a nice Faithful man from the family of Andúnië interested in her, and who does she go with instead...??? Pharazôn!!! :eek:

It might make a nice hypothetical story think on what may have happened had she picked Amandil's brother instead, and told Pharazôn where to go. :p

ETA - Does anyone here think she may have regretted her choice in the end?

[Valandil]

:
:

ETA - Does anyone here think she may have regretted her choice in the end?

I'm not convinced it was 'her choice' to begin with, although earlier versions of the story may lead us that way. In the version published in "The Silmarillion", she seems to have just been pushed aside by Pharazon - and I suppose that most of the nobles were willing to let it happen because they were largely of the King's Men. I think the account further distances her from Pharazon and his inclinations with the part about her climbing the Meneltarma as the deluge hit.

Remember as well - no children recorded. I don't know if he 'took her' once, as a formality, or if that didn't even happen.

[Voronwen]

I think the account further distances her from Pharazon and his inclinations with the part about her climbing the Meneltarma as the deluge hit.
This is true - it's likely that this was a huge symbolic showing of her following her true heart. :(

Remember as well - no children recorded. I don't know if he 'took her' once, as a formality, or if that didn't even happen.
I've wondered - assuming that it wasn't her choice, of course - whether she had even been taken by force in order to officially consummate the marriage :rolleyes: (obviously he wasn't too nice a guy, so could we put any such thing past him, especially if Sauron was already poisoning his mind?), but we can only hope nothing of the sort ever happened. Miriel is a tragic enough character as it is. :(

If she had chosen him, though, it's possible that he really pulled the wool over her eyes at first, to make himself desirable to her. Maybe she did start out loving him, but the fact that there were no children could indicate that she fell out of love with him rather early on. Maybe once she found out what kind of a jerk he really was, she just couldn't love him anymore. Of course though, by this time, it was already too late.

So maybe both possibilities are true... :confused:

[Gordis]

The absence of children has a lot more to do with Miriel's age, IMO. She was old for that. Miriel, born in 3117, when marrying Pharazon, in 3255, was already 138 years old!

Tar Palantir lived to 220, Gimilkhad, Pharazon's father, lived to 199.

The last seven kings of numenor ALL had children well before they turned 100!
And we are speaking of males here, for females the age would be even lower.
See here:Age of the Kings at the time when their Heir was born (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a337/Gor-Dis/LE-FirstChild.jpg)