Why didn't Sauron use the Numenorean army?

[CAB]

Towards the end of the Second Age, the Numenoreans had become a very formidable military force. When Ar Pharazon confronted Sauron, Sauron’s own servants deserted him and he was taken as a prisoner to Numenor. After a few years Sauron gained control of Pharazon and through him the Numenorean military. My question is: Why didn’t Sauron use this army against his enemies in Middle Earth, primarily the Elves and Faithful Numenoreans? The Numenoreans in Ar Pharazon’s time surely could have destroyed or enslaved them. Instead, Sauron willingly destroyed his new forces by sending them against the Valar. He knew quite well that this would be their end. Why would he do this?

[Gordis]

Interesting topic, CAB. I don't think it has ever been discussed before.

IMO, Ar-Pharazon, whatever strong Sauron's influence might have been, never became his slave.
The King did what HE wanted to do - and he wanted immortality and in that he was of like mind with most of the populatiion. There was nothing for him to gain, if he had attacked Gil-Galad.
As for the Faithful, they were keeping their heads low, both in Nimenor and in ME. Never was there an open rebellion, hence there was really no need for military action against the Faithful. Gradually they would have been exterminated one by one.

Now, by the time of the Downfall, Ar-Pharazon was already 200 years old. His predecessor, Tar-Palantir the Faithful, lived only to 220 years, while his own father, Gimilkhâd, died at 200! The King had NO time to waste hunting elves n ME. He had to act before the "Gift" of Eru reached him.

[CAB]

Interesting topic, CAB. I don't think it has ever been discussed before.

IMO, Ar-Pharazon, whatever strong Sauron's influence might have been, never became his slave.
The King did what HE wanted to do - and he wanted immortality and in that he was of like mind with most of the populatiion. There was nothing for him to gain, if he had attacked Gil-Galad.
As for the Faithful, they were keeping their heads low, both in Nimenor and in ME. Never was there an open rebellion, hence there was really no need for military action against the Faithful. Gradually they would have been exterminated one by one.

Now, by the time of the Downfall, Ar-Pharazon was already 200 years old. His predecessor, Tar-Palantir the Faithful, lived only to 220 years, while his own father, Gimilkhâd, died at 200! The King had NO time to waste hunting elves n ME. He had to act before the "Gift" of Eru reached him.
Good answer as always Gordis. Let me ask you this though. Why couldn’t Sauron wait a few years for Pharazon to die and then work on his successor? He would then have more time to defeat his enemies in Middle Earth before the new King grew old. I think you are right that Pharazon wasn’t completely under Sauron’s control and this might have been the case with the new King also, but surely Sauron could come up with a way to convince him that attacking the Elves in Middle Earth was to his advantage. They were already attacking Men far and wide.

[Landroval]

Sauron could come up with a way to convince him that attacking the Elves in Middle Earth was to his advantage. They were already attacking Men far and wide.
I believe so too, in the Kings of Numenor, RotK, it is stated:
Ar-Pharazon the Golden was the proudest and most powerful of all the Kings, and no less than the kingship of the world was his desire.
Perhaps Sauron didn't want Ar-Pharazon to confron his own faithful subjects; or maybe he just wanted the numenoreans to die, since he hated them so much:
For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon sea and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Numenoreans and the defeat of their proud king

[Earniel]

I think the main reason is that Sauron wanted Númenor utterly destroyed. He didn't at the moment care much about the Elves and other people in Middle-earth. He could deal with them later. He didn't want to control Númenor and its people, he wanted to see them crippled, humbled and cast down. I guess his pride was majorly stung when Ar-Pharazon outdid him in power.

I think he saw the corruption of the Númenoreans he wrought, the fact that he was able to send Ar-Pharazon to Valinor to defy the Valar from whom the Númenoreans had even received their own land, as a enormous victory. I doubt he had forseen the magnitude and swiftness of Eru's punishment or he wouldn't have stayed in Númenor. Unless Ar-Pharazon didn't completely trust him after all and wanted to make sure Sauron was still where he left the maia when he returned from his campaign against Valinor.

But it still stands that Sauron managed to destroy a very prosperous and advanced civilisation and reduced a mighty people to exiles and cast-aways, much diminished in power, knowledge and technology. While Gondor and Arnor still were great kingdoms, they were but a small remnant of what once was, and they would never again equal the likes of Númenor. With the destruction of Númenor Sauron successfully made sure the might of Númenor could never stand again in the way of his dominion.

[Landroval]

With the destruction of Númenor Sauron successfully made sure the might of Númenor could never stand again in the way of his dominion.
I think this is a matter of debate; as long as Numenor stood (with Sauron there), the faithfull could not openly fight Sauron and his plans. Once Numenor perished, the numenoreans in Middle-Earth twice were crucial in defeating Sauron.

[Earniel]

A matter of debate, indeed. But while the Faitfull were indeed crucial in defeating Sauron later on, it took much more effort. If I'm not mistaken, the Last Alliance where they laid siege on the Barad-dur took years and only with the help of other races and nations did it succeed. So IMO, if the Faithfull had had the strengths which Númenor before the fall had, Sauron's might wouldn't have stood a chance.

[CAB]

Ar-Pharazon the Golden was the proudest and most powerful of all the Kings, and no less than the kingship of the world was his desire.
Thank you for the quote Landroval. Of course, as Gordis has already said, by the time Sauron was (kind of) in control, it was a little late in Pharazon’s lifetime for him to worry about conquering the world. His first priority had to be to obtain everlasting life. However, this quote may likely apply to Pharazon’s successor as well. This is something I was hoping someone would touch on. Who was next in line for the Kingship? Was Sauron concerned he wouldn’t have the same influence over this person? The Queen was of the Faithful, so this may have been a concern, but I doubt she was going to rule after Pharazon’s death.

I think the main reason is that Sauron wanted Númenor utterly destroyed. He didn't at the moment care much about the Elves and other people in Middle-earth. He could deal with them later. He didn't want to control Númenor and its people, he wanted to see them crippled, humbled and cast down. I guess his pride was majorly stung when Ar-Pharazon outdid him in power.

I think he saw the corruption of the Númenoreans he wrought, the fact that he was able to send Ar-Pharazon to Valinor to defy the Valar from whom the Númenoreans had even received their own land, as a enormous victory. I doubt he had forseen the magnitude and swiftness of Eru's punishment or he wouldn't have stayed in Númenor. Unless Ar-Pharazon didn't completely trust him after all and wanted to make sure Sauron was still where he left the maia when he returned from his campaign against Valinor.

But it still stands that Sauron managed to destroy a very prosperous and advanced civilisation and reduced a mighty people to exiles and cast-aways, much diminished in power, knowledge and technology. While Gondor and Arnor still were great kingdoms, they were but a small remnant of what once was, and they would never again equal the likes of Númenor. With the destruction of Númenor Sauron successfully made sure the might of Númenor could never stand again in the way of his dominion.
You may be right. In my opinion this would have been very shortsighted of Sauron though. The combined free peoples of Middle Earth still posed a great threat. Maybe he was just overconfident, or overvengeful, or was more concerned to remove the greater threat. Then again, as you may be suggesting, maybe the destruction of Numenor was as important to him as his own victory in Middle Earth.
Once Numenor perished, the numenoreans in Middle-Earth twice were crucial in defeating Sauron.
If I'm not mistaken, the Last Alliance where they laid siege on the Barad-dur took years and only with the help of other races and nations did it succeed.
Yes it was a close call, but this was still a miscalculation on Sauron’s part. Maybe vengefulness blinded Sauron’s judgement. But as Earniel says, he did remove one threat.
So IMO, if the Faithfull had had the strengths which Númenor before the fall had, Sauron's might wouldn't have stood a chance.

[Earniel]

You may be right. In my opinion this would have been very shortsighted of Sauron though. The combined free peoples of Middle Earth still posed a great threat. Maybe he was just overconfident, or overvengeful, or was more concerned to remove the greater threat. Then again, as you may be suggesting, maybe the destruction of Numenor was as important to him as his own victory in Middle Earth.
Indeed, Sauron not necessarily made the smartest choice. His hate for Númenor may have blinded him to the consequences. He was very confident in his strength and power, which was illustrated when Sauron claimed the title King of Men and declared he would destroy Númenor if need should be. I guess he miscalculated just a little bit what Númenor actually could do. :p

But best not to forget that even before the coming of Sauron to Númenor the relations between Middle-earth and Númenor had already deteriorated severely. Elves were called spies of the Valar and those who welcomed them in Númenor risked punishment. Even Tar-Palantir's attempt to turn the tide was in vain. So the chances of them uniting against Sauron were, IMO, small. Númenor was most likely the biggest threat at the time. Perhaps the only one apart from the Valar that could defeat Sauron single-handedly.

But in the end, it was the destruction of Númenor that released the Faithful from the oppression of their King and allowed them to re-ally them with the Elves as of old, exactly that which eventually costed Sauron dearly in the battle with the Last Alliance. Now that is what I call an oversight. :p

In this I spy the hand of Eru, that while Númenor was lost and Men dimished, and the Valar laid down their stewardship, Sauron too was caught in its fall and lost his fair form. And from the destruction of Númenor his downfall would come in the end. And it brought Elves and Men back together again, at least for a while.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Good answer as always Gordis. Let me ask you this though. Why couldn’t Sauron wait a few years for Pharazon to die and then work on his successor?
I don't think Sauron wanted to take the chance of his succesor being similar to Tar-Palantir. I think I am right to say that at this point Ar-Pharazon had not had any children, so if he ied the next ruler who have been Miriel, who was one of the faithful. I think that if this did happen then the people of Numenor could be persuaded to see things from Miriel's and the rest of the Faithful's side. After all it was the ruler who turned Numenor against the Lord's of Andunie in the first place, not Sauron.

[Gordis]

I believe people tend to overestimate Sauron's influence on Ar-Pharazon. The only things Sauron achieved was making the Numenoreans worship Melkor and attack Valinor - both things for one goal - gaining immortality. That was the only thing they really wanted, not some war with the ME Elves. Sauron couldn't really use the King and his army as he wished: that's why he destroyed them.

Why couldn’t Sauron wait a few years for Pharazon to die and then work on his successor? He would then have more time to defeat his enemies in Middle Earth before the new King grew old. I think you are right that Pharazon wasn’t completely under Sauron’s control and this might have been the case with the new King also, but surely Sauron could come up with a way to convince him that attacking the Elves in Middle Earth was to his advantage. They were already attacking Men far and wide.
I believe Ar-Pharazon would have never agreed to wait and die. He was King, it was he who took decisions. If Sauron tried to turn his attentions elsewhere, he wouldn't have agreed. Death was major issue in Numenor by this time: the life span of the Kings was HALVED!
And I think Telcontar_Dunedain is right. The next ruler would be MIRIEL - not as a widow of Ar-Pharazon, but as a daughter of Tar-Palantir. And after her the Sceptre would have passed to the next in line - this person should have been appointed heir long ago and probably left behind when the Fleet sailed - just in case. There was later the custom in Gondor to leave a Heir to the crown behind (Like Ondoher and Faramir his son-see UT)

He didn't want to control Númenor and its people, he wanted to see them crippled, humbled and cast down. I guess his pride was majorly stung when Ar-Pharazon outdid him in power.
Yes, I agree with that. Sauron was a vengeful guy. But what did he really plan? Yes, he was expecting Pharazon and his army to perish in their assault on Valinor. He wasn't expecting the drowning of the whole island. What would have happened if the fleet never returned? Normally the remaining population of Numenor would have been even more in Sauron's power and even more turned against the Valar and the Elves than they were previously. The new Queen, Tar-Miriel, had little left to live anyway and who would be the next King, who knows? The Witch-King, perhaps. :p .Next generation would have served Sauron, IMHO, and the might of the Island would have been slowly rebuilt. Of course there were the Faithful, but having the Power in his hands, Sauron would have dealt with them - or so he thought.

[Earniel]

Yes, he was expecting Pharazon and his army to perish in their assault on Valinor. He wasn't expecting the drowning of the whole island. What would have happened if the fleet never returned? Normally the remaining population of Numenor would have been even more in Sauron's power and even more turned against the Valar and the Elves than they were previously.
Interesting observation. If Ar-Pharazon and his fleet never came back, it would have left a power-vacuum in Númenor. One, I'm thinking MÃ*riel would have had difficulty to fill succesfully. Turning the population of Númenor back from the Morgoth-worship and back on friendly basis with the West and Elves would have been a very hard task indeed, considering there was but a small group of Faithfull left on the whole continent. Sauron may very well have had a much better shot at the control then.

[CAB]

But best not to forget that even before the coming of Sauron to Númenor the relations between Middle-earth and Númenor had already deteriorated severely. Elves were called spies of the Valar and those who welcomed them in Númenor risked punishment. Even Tar-Palantir's attempt to turn the tide was in vain. So the chances of them uniting against Sauron were, IMO, small. Númenor was most likely the biggest threat at the time. Perhaps the only one apart from the Valar that could defeat Sauron single-handedly.

But in the end, it was the destruction of Númenor that released the Faithful from the oppression of their King and allowed them to re-ally them with the Elves as of old, exactly that which eventually costed Sauron dearly in the battle with the Last Alliance. Now that is what I call an oversight. :p

In this I spy the hand of Eru, that while Númenor was lost and Men dimished, and the Valar laid down their stewardship, Sauron too was caught in its fall and lost his fair form. And from the destruction of Númenor his downfall would come in the end. And it brought Elves and Men back together again, at least for a while.
Good point. The way things worked out does seem like it might have been a divine plan.

I believe people tend to overestimate Sauron's influence on Ar-Pharazon. The only things Sauron achieved was making the Numenoreans worship Melkor and attack Valinor - both things for one goal - gaining immortality. That was the only thing they really wanted, not some war with the ME Elves. Sauron couldn't really use the King and his army as he wished: that's why he destroyed them.
I think you are right that Sauron’s influence is often overestimated, but I also think you may be somewhat underestimating it. However, as you have already implied, it didn’t matter in regards to using the Numenoreans to take over Middle Earth in Pharazon's time. Pharazon would become obsessed with his own death before they could complete this task. Then again, they probably could have at least done some damage to the Elves of Middle Earth before the focus was shifted elsewhere. Sauron apparently inspired the attacks (as opposed to just subjugation) on the Men of Middle Earth. Why couldn’t they have simply directed these attacks against the Elves instead?


I believe Ar-Pharazon would have never agreed to wait and die. He was King, it was he who took decisions. If Sauron tried to turn his attentions elsewhere, he wouldn't have agreed.
But Gordis, what choice did he have? Pharazon didn’t know of any path to immortality. It could be that Sauron felt he must direct the King’s anger somewhere away from himself I suppose. He surely would have chosen some other target for the King if he didn’t have the destruction of the Numenorean army as his main goal.


He wasn't expecting the drowning of the whole island. What would have happened if the fleet never returned? Normally the remaining population of Numenor would have been even more in Sauron's power and even more turned against the Valar and the Elves than they were previously. The new Queen, Tar-Miriel, had little left to live anyway and who would be the next King, who knows? The Witch-King, perhaps. :p .Next generation would have served Sauron, IMHO, and the might of the Island would have been slowly rebuilt. Of course there were the Faithful, but having the Power in his hands, Sauron would have dealt with them - or so he thought.
the next ruler who have been Miriel
Interesting observation. If Ar-Pharazon and his fleet never came back, it would have left a power-vacuum in Númenor. One, I'm thinking MÃ*riel would have had difficulty to fill succesfully. Turning the population of Númenor back from the Morgoth-worship and back on friendly basis with the West and Elves would have been a very hard task indeed, considering there was but a small group of Faithfull left on the whole continent. Sauron may very well have had a much better shot at the control then.
This is an interesting observation, and a good point, but it isn’t an answer to the original question, quite the contrary. This is a good reason to find a way to remove Pharazon and preserve the army. Surely Sauron could have done this. Why wait many years while rebuilding when there is already a very powerful army in place? I personally don’t think Miriel had any chance of holding power from Sauron.

[The Gaffer]

Another interesting thread, chaps.

My view would be that Sauron was so totally blown away by the power of the Numenoreans that he felt he needed to bring about their destruction.

Just looking at the archaeological evidence (Erech, Orthanc, Argonath, a single curse bringing an Army of the Dead back to serve an heir 3,000 years later, etc etc) of a remnant of the Numenoreans, they must have been enormously powerful at their peak. So Sauron's gob was truly smacked, and any thought of physically dominating the Numenoreans was vanquished.

Sauron knew (IMO) also that Men could not be utterly broken in spirit. Did Hurin not defy his master for years? Maybe they might turn to evil, but they would still ultimately go their own way. So, if he retained any hope of being Lord of ME, he would have to destroy them.

Given that, the plan of getting the Valar to destroy them instead was pretty genius IMO.

[Earniel]

On a side-note, I have to say it really feels good to be able to participate into a new Tolkien-discussion again. I almost forgot how fun it used to be. Thanks guys! :)

[The Gaffer]

Damright. Three cheers for Gordis, CAB, TD, Landroval and all the rest. :D

[Gordis]

ButGordis, what choice did he have? Pharazon didn’t know of any path to immortality. It could be that Sauron felt he must direct the King’s anger somewhere away from himself I suppose. He surely would have chosen some other target for the King if he didn’t have the destruction of the Numenorean army as his main goal.

Sauron's plans must have evolved, during his stay in Numenor. I think when Sauron first came to Numenor, he planned to make the King Pharazon his slave, and to use the might of Numenor as he himself wished, just as you suggested, CAB:

(3262-3310 Sauron seduces the King and corrupts the Númenoreans. Tale of Years)
First Sauron made himself really useful. Nonetheless for long it seemed to the Númenóreans that they prospered, and if they were not increased in happiness, yet they grew more strong, and their rich men ever richer. For with the aid and counsel of Sauron they multiplied their possessions, and they devised engines, and they built ever greater ships.
Why would Sauron give sound advice and offer help if he thought to destroy the whole nation or the Army from the start? He could have sent them to Valinor much earlier. But at first he still hoped to rule the Island, behind the King's back.

Sauron used subtlety. First he made the King and the Island worship Melkor, Then he cut the White Tree and built a Temple where "with spilling of blood and torment and great wickedness, men made sacrifice to Melkor that he should release them from Death"

But "Death did not depart from the land, rather it came sooner and more often, and in many dreadful guises."

Here I think Sauron felt like a trickster who promised the people immortality, but couldn't keep his promise. By 3310 it had become evident: But the years passed, and the King felt the shadow of death approach, as his days lengthened; and he was filled with fear and wrath.
Wrath at whom? -At Sauron, of course. And, I believe, most of the Numenoreans felt the same. Sauron couldn't fight alone against all the population of Numenor. Likely the King in his wrath had threatened the Counsellor with death.

Sauron knew the only way to make the King immortal: the Rings of Power. But he had none with him in Valinor save the One. And he couldn't travel to ME to get himself one of the 9 or the 7. Perhaps he also didn't want the hated King forever around as one of his nazgul. :p

But still, as CAB said, Sauron felt he must direct the King’s anger somewhere away from himself. The Maia was ever resourceful. Here he revealed that the only way to gain immortality was to attack Valinor. Thus he planned death for Ar-Pharazon and for the majority of able-bodied male population, including those of the house of Elros.
And the latter part was very important, indeed.

This is a good reason to find a way to remove Pharazon and preserve the army. Surely Sauron could have done this. Why wait many years while rebuilding when there is already a very powerful army in place?
Sauron knew (IMO) also that Men could not be utterly broken in spirit. Did Hurin not defy his master for years? Maybe they might turn to evil, but they would still ultimately go their own way. So, if he retained any hope of being Lord of ME, he would have to destroy them.

If he removed the King, there would be another one. The line of Elros was numerous, and Sauron has learned from bitter experience that those men were tough morsels to swallow. If he couldn't later daunt Aragorn, how could he hope to enslave his much more powerful predecessors, High Numenoreans of the Royal line? If he had done so before, it was only by giving them the Rings. He wanted them all dead in one blow, and by the enemy's hand. He preferred to deal with the remaining women and their young offspring.

So in 3310 he turned from Plan A (to rule Pharazon and Numenor at the height of its might) to much more humble plan B (to destroy the King and all his army and to rule a much weakened, but more pliable Numenor).

So, as I see it, Sauron's greatest mistakes were underestimating Eru, underestimating the Numenoreans and not taking some spare Rings with him when he came to the island. :p

On a side-note, I have to say it really feels good to be able to participate into a new Tolkien-discussion again. I almost forgot how fun it used to be. Thanks guys
I also want to thank all the participants of this wonderful thread. I admire the spirit of politeness and friendliness of everybody here. No sneering or condescending remarks made, as it has happened a few times in other threads and happens all the time on some other Forums. Thank you guys! The Moot seems great again! :) :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

This is an interesting observation, and a good point, but it isn’t an answer to the original question, quite the contrary. This is a good reason to find a way to remove Pharazon and preserve the army. Surely Sauron could have done this. Why wait many years while rebuilding when there is already a very powerful army in place? I personally don’t think Miriel had any chance of holding power from Sauron.
I disagree (or misunderstand you). As I said the next in line was Miriel, and as I also said before she was one of the Faithful. The Faithful saw beyond the disguise of Sauron and if Miriel had become queen you could almsot guarentee he have been off Numenor and surrendered to Gil-galad with weeks. Sauron needed a ruler who would do what he wanted.

[Gordis]

As I said the next in line was Miriel, and as I also said before she was one of the Faithful. The Faithful saw beyond the disguise of Sauron and if Miriel had become queen you could almsot guarentee he have been off Numenor and surrendered to Gil-galad with weeks. Sauron needed a ruler who would do what he wanted.

But, TD, why didn't the Faithful even try to support Miriel's claim to the throne? She was the rightful queen all along, but still Ar-Pharazon was able to marry her and usurp the throne. Where were the Faithful then?

I hardly doubt that after a premature death of Ar-Pharazon, the Faithful would be able to make her the Queen. And would they even bother to support her? She stopped being Faithful long ago and repented only in the very last moment.

[CAB]

I disagree (or misunderstand you). As I said the next in line was Miriel, and as I also said before she was one of the Faithful. The Faithful saw beyond the disguise of Sauron and if Miriel had become queen you could almsot guarentee he have been off Numenor and surrendered to Gil-galad with weeks. Sauron needed a ruler who would do what he wanted.
I agree with you that Miriel wouldn’t follow Sauron, but I don’t think the people of Numenor would follow her. She had to seem weak after having pushed aside from her rightful place on the throne for some 65 years. She was probably already fairly old by the time of the attack on Valinor too. Also, as you yourself said, she was probably childless. I personally don’t believe that an old, weak (appearing), childless Queen would have been able to control Sauron.

My view would be that Sauron was so totally blown away by the power of the Numenoreans that he felt he needed to bring about their destruction.

Just looking at the archaeological evidence (Erech, Orthanc, Argonath, a single curse bringing an Army of the Dead back to serve an heir 3,000 years later, etc etc) of a remnant of the Numenoreans, they must have been enormously powerful at their peak. So Sauron's gob was truly smacked, and any thought of physically dominating the Numenoreans was vanquished.

Sauron knew (IMO) also that Men could not be utterly broken in spirit. Did Hurin not defy his master for years? Maybe they might turn to evil, but they would still ultimately go their own way. So, if he retained any hope of being Lord of ME, he would have to destroy them.

Given that, the plan of getting the Valar to destroy them instead was pretty genius IMO.


Sauron's plans must have evolved, during his stay in Numenor. I think when Sauron first came to Numenor, he planned to make the King Pharazon his slave, and to use the might of Numenor as he himself wished, just as you suggested, CAB:

(3262-3310 Sauron seduces the King and corrupts the Númenoreans. Tale of Years)
First Sauron made himself really useful.
Why would Sauron give sound advice and offer help if he thought to destroy the whole nation or the Army from the start? He could have sent them to Valinor much earlier. But at first he still hoped to rule the Island, behind the King's back.

Sauron used subtlety. First he made the King and the Island worship Melkor, Then he cut the White Tree and built a Temple where "with spilling of blood and torment and great wickedness, men made sacrifice to Melkor that he should release them from Death"

But "Death did not depart from the land, rather it came sooner and more often, and in many dreadful guises."

Here I think Sauron felt like a trickster who promised the people immortality, but couldn't keep his promise. By 3310 it had become evident:
Wrath at whom? -At Sauron, of course. And, I believe, most of the Numenoreans felt the same. Sauron couldn't fight alone against all the population of Numenor. Likely the King in his wrath had threatened the Counsellor with death.

Sauron knew the only way to make the King immortal: the Rings of Power. But he had none with him in Valinor save the One. And he couldn't travel to ME to get himself one of the 9 or the 7. Perhaps he also didn't want the hated King forever around as one of his nazgul. :p

But still, as CAB said, Sauron felt he must direct the King’s anger somewhere away from himself. The Maia was ever resourceful. Here he revealed that the only way to gain immortality was to attack Valinor. Thus he planned death for Ar-Pharazon and for the majority of able-bodied male population, including those of the house of Elros.
And the latter part was very important, indeed.

If he removed the King, there would be another one. The line of Elros was numerous, and Sauron has learned from bitter experience that those men were tough morsels to swallow. If he couldn't later daunt Aragorn, how could he hope to enslave his much more powerful predecessors, High Numenoreans of the Royal line? If he had done so before, it was only by giving them the Rings. He wanted them all dead in one blow, and by the enemy's hand. He preferred to deal with the remaining women and their young offspring.

So in 3310 he turned from Plan A (to rule Pharazon and Numenor at the height of its might) to much more humble plan B (to destroy the King and all his army and to rule a much weakened, but more pliable Numenor).

So, as I see it, Sauron's greatest mistakes were underestimating Eru, underestimating the Numenoreans and not taking some spare Rings with him when he came to the island. :p
Gordis, I like this explanation very much. I also think the Gaffers’ ideas about the power of Numenor and the Men who ruled it are similar to what you are saying. Excellent answer.


I also want to thank all the participants of this wonderful thread. I admire the spirit of politeness and friendliness of everybody here. No sneering or condescending remarks made, as it has happened a few times in other threads and happens all the time on some other Forums. Thank you guys! The Moot seems great again! :) :)
Ditto. I don’t think I could post in a place with an unfriendly/rude atmosphere. That isn’t a problem here. Thank you to everybody.

[Gordis]

Zimraphel/Miriel was 202 years old at the Downfall. Very old for this time period, indeed. She could have lived for 20-30 more years at best, given that women lived longer than men.

But I have had a second thought about the succession. Pharazôn son of Gimilkhâd (Tar-Palantir's younger brother), was Miriel's heir anyway, second in line for the Succession at the time when Tar-Palantir died.
Actually, for Pharazon to get the Sceptre, there was no real necessity to marry his cousin Miriel. He could have made her abdicate in his favour (in favour of her cousin the next heir), as often older sisters did in favour of their younger brothers. And that is what she surely did, when he married her: she is not counted as a XXV ruler of Numenor between Tar-Palantir and Ar-Pharazon, as she would have been, had she ruled even for a day.

But once a Heiress surrenders her right to the Scepter, there is no way back. So, Miriel wouldn't be next in line after Ar-Pharazon, her husband.

Who would? Some descendant of a sibling of Ar-Zimrathon XXI, or Ar-Sakalthôr XXII, or Ar-Gimilzôr XXIII. At least one of those Kings had to have a sibling. Hardly any of their heirs would be among the Faithful, as "faithfulness" is always connected in some way with the Line of Andunie (like haemophilia). But still they would be strong-willed High Numenoreans, descendants of Elros, next to impossible to enslave. That's why Sauron sent all of them with the Fleet to their deaths.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with you that Miriel wouldn’t follow Sauron, but I don’t think the people of Numenor would follow her. She had to seem weak after having pushed aside from her rightful place on the throne for some 65 years. She was probably already fairly old by the time of the attack on Valinor too. Also, as you yourself said, she was probably childless. I personally don’t believe that an old, weak (appearing), childless Queen would have been able to control Sauron.
But the people of Numenor would. Remember it wasn't Sauron who made the people of Numenor the elf-hating people they were, it was the King (can't remember which one). I believe that once Sauron's true designs wee exposed then the people of Numenor would feel the same way to him as they did before, and to his teachings. I also think that with a bit of persuasion and mercy Numenor could be convinced to change their ways, much as they did before.

[Gordis]

Remember it wasn't Sauron who made the people of Numenor the elf-hating people they were, it was the King (can't remember which one).
IMO, it was the unnecessary Ban to sail West and the denial of immortality that did that to them.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet if the rulers had not spoken openly against it then they would have done nothing.

[CAB]

But the people of Numenor would. Remember it wasn't Sauron who made the people of Numenor the elf-hating people they were, it was the King (can't remember which one). I believe that once Sauron's true designs wee exposed then the people of Numenor would feel the same way to him as they did before, and to his teachings. I also think that with a bit of persuasion and mercy Numenor could be convinced to change their ways, much as they did before.
I can’t agree with the idea that the people of Numenor would so easily or quickly change their ways. The text doesn’t support it. They already had a chance when Tar-Palantir was King.

All the quotes below were written regarding the time of Palantir’s rule.

But no ship came ever again out of the West, because of the insolence of the Kings, and because the hearts of the most part of the Numenoreans were still hardened. -The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales
But his repentance was too late to appease the anger of the Valar with the insolence of his fathers, of which the greater part of his people did not repent. -Akallabeth, The Silmarillion
He (Pharazon) had fared often abroad, as a leader in the wars that the Numenoreans made then in the coastlands of Middle-earth, seeking to extend their dominion over Men... -Akallabeth, The Silmarillion
3175 Repentance of Tar-Palantir. Civil war in Numenor. -Tale of Years, Return of the King

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet that was only one king. It would have taken for than the time of one ruler for the people of Numenor to change as they did. I'm not suggesting that the cahnge would be instantaneous, but I think that there would eventually be a a change.

[Gordis]

I think the Rebellion and Shadow on Numenor was one of the rare examples where Kings were completely of the like mind with the people. :p

To placate Numenoreans, the Valar had to lift the stupid Ban. :(

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I disagree. Numenoreans wanted immortality, they thought Valinor would give them that. They didn't want beautiful gardens and meadows, they wanted eternal life.

[Landroval]

I second TD; the valar had no right to alter the fate of Men by allowing them to enter Valinor - nor could they. Most Men would live only 100 years more in Aman - afterwards they either leave their hroa through sudden death - or that person becomes a beast dominated by its hroa.

[ecthelion]

IMO, the explanation as to why sending them aginst the valar, is connected with the great themes of Tolkien:
1. Evil defeats itself
2. Always Morgoth (and hence Sauron) chiefly delighted in dividing their chief foes. As Morgoth sew dissention between Feanor and the valar, and then between the ruling Noldor, sauron wanted to forever estrange men from the valar. This, to him, could perhaps be a greater victory even than controlling the world himself.

[Falagar]

I can’t agree with the idea that the people of Numenor would so easily or quickly change their ways. The text doesn’t support it. They already had a chance when Tar-Palantir was King.

All the quotes below were written regarding the time of Palantir’s rule.
However, the total destruction of their gigantic fleet might well have swayed the people of Númenor. Sauron had persuaded them to believe that the West would fall easily, or at least that Morgoth was the true power. If king and people noticed that generation after generation of Númenoreans died, without gaining Valinor or immortality, they'd sooner or later begin to question the extent of Sauron and his master's power (some of the reason Sauron may have acted swiftly (rashly?) with Ar-Pharazôn). I don't think he could have kept on coming up with excuses forever; and if the Valar did some PR-markeding...

On the other hand, the corruption may well have had some 'magical' qualities as well, and Sauron might have kept them in line long enough for there to be no turning back. Also, Tolkien doesn't strike me as a big follower of the idea that people ever truly change...

[Landroval]

However, the total destruction of their gigantic fleet might well have swayed the people of Númenor.
Seeing how they resorted to enslaving, torturing, sacrificing people, slaying each other in madness, etc, I tend to think otherwise.
On the other hand, the corruption may well have had some 'magical' qualities as well, and Sauron might have kept them in line long enough for there to be no turning back.
I agree, one of the traits of the one ring is the subjugation of other wills.
Also, Tolkien doesn't strike me as a big follower of the idea that people ever truly change...
Hm, I wouldn't say so; we have great evolutions of characters - the fall of Feanor, the maturing of Bilbo, the rise to 'sanctity' of Frodo, the turning to love of Eowyn, etc.. And if you were reffering to large communities, there are the Men who fled from Morgoth, which represents a good deal of redeeming.

[Alcuin]

I believe I have been able to translate the last entry in Sauron’s personal journal in Númenor (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/A%20peak%20at%20the%20last%20entry%20of%20Saurons% 20journal.htm). Perhaps that might throw some light on this subject?

Feel free to criticize the translation – it might be a bit loose in some places. Oh, and – take it with a light heart and a grain of salt.

[Falagar]

Fëanor was proud and arrogant already from the start and the Faithful were already faithful before they set sail. Bilbo, Frodo and Eowyn all experience some character-development (especially Frodo), true.

Seeing how they resorted to enslaving, torturing, sacrificing people, slaying each other in madness, etc, I tend to think otherwise.
Did they even get the message that they had lost the "war" before the island was overthrown? Didn't seem like they had much time to get around to a change of heart.

[CAB]

However, the total destruction of their gigantic fleet might well have swayed the people of Númenor.
You could be right. At least the remaining Numenoreans wouldn’t be foolish enough to attack Valinor again any time soon after this. But remember that the Numenoreans had been giving the inhabitants of Middle Earth a hard time for many years without any punishment (except for the decline of their lifespan, which it would seem they didn’t attribute to their evil actions, somehow). They probably wouldn’t see the fleet’s destruction as punishment for evil deeds either, but just as a (big) defeat in battle. I would guess that they would go back to oppressing Middle Earth as soon as their strength was sufficient. Also, if the destruction of just the fleet was a good option, I wonder why Eru didn’t do this rather than destroying the entire island.

I am not particularly familiar with the Letters, but I think there is a quote in there stating that with the creation of Numenor and the increasing of it’s inhabitant’s lifespans, the Numenoreans were doomed to fall. So, if they didn’t fall completely during their attack on Valinor, they probably would have fallen again later.


If king and people noticed that generation after generation of Númenoreans died, without gaining Valinor or immortality, they'd sooner or later begin to question the extent of Sauron and his master's power (some of the reason Sauron may have acted swiftly (rashly?) with Ar-Pharazôn). I don't think he could have kept on coming up with excuses forever
I think Gordis’s explanation answers this very well. Pharazon was already impatient, so Sauron had to act at that point and not later. Also, with pretty much every strong, male Numenorean going to attack Valinor (to Sauron meaning: dead) the remaining people would have been much easier for him to control. If he set himself up as king, he wouldn’t have to worry about facing the wrath of future Numenorean kings.

[Landroval]

I am not particularly familiar with the Letters, but I think there is a quote in there stating that with the creation of Numenor and the increasing of it’s inhabitant’s lifespans, the Numenoreans were doomed to fall. So, if they didn’t fall completely during their attack on Valinor, they probably would have fallen again later.
I am not sure if this is what you mean, but in letter #131, he states that "reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!" in regard to the numenoreans. In the UT, it is said that the istari were sent to amend the errors of old of the valar - I would count this among them. Also, in the preface the unfinished New Shadow Chris makes refference to letter #256 - "Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good". This satiety is probably directly proportionate to how good you are doing ;).
I believe I have been able to translate the last entry in Sauron’s personal journal in Númenor. Perhaps that might throw some light on this subject?
Really nice! (I would only like to say that in refference to the size of the numenorean armada, Tolkien did state in letter #131 that it was "the greatest of all armadas".)

[CAB]

I am not sure if this is what you mean, but in letter #131, he states that "reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!" in regard to the numenoreans.
I’m not completely sure, but I think the quote I was thinking of is in the same letter, just below the quote you gave. Rereading it just now though, I think I misinterpreted it the first time. It doesn’t seem to say that their fall was inevitable, just likely.

[Attalus]

I think that Sauron believed that he could destroy all of the Numenoreans, and did not forsee that Eru would preserve Elendil and the rest to found the kingdoms in Middle-earth that would eventually play a large part in destroying him. Another example of "Oft Evil will shall Evil mar!"

[jammi567]

or (like it states above somewhere) that he thought he could distroy the faithful peple, as well as the women and children left on the island, in his own time, and didn't realise that Eru would issue the punishment so quickly, or in such a devistating maner.

[Alcuin]

I would only like to say that in refference to the size of the numenorean armada, Tolkien did state in letter #131 that it was "the greatest of all armadas".Thank you, Landroval. I shall update the footnote.

[Ellf]

Mere hatred... Mere hatred... If I'm going down then you're coming with me sort of thinking if you will. Sauron was a great student of Morgoth. Morgoth wanted to ursup Iluvatar's power. He hated the love Iluvatar bore to his creation (Arda, elves, men). Morgoth passed on this hatred to his best student "Sauron".

And a little revenge...

Also, don't forget Sauron left his armies back at home, who were not afraid of Middle Earth's inhabitants. As soon as he got back home, he had an instant black army. His army fled and was not destroyed by Ar-Pharazon. His armies were afraid of the numerous (and mighty) Numenoreans. Don't forget Numenoreans were a blood mixture of elves and men. The Numenoreans were direct decendents of the only two people on Arda that (at that moment in time) punked him (Luthien and Beren). Eonwe had also punked him but he doesn't count as a person.

[Ellf]

Towards the end of the Second Age, the Numenoreans had become a very formidable military force. When Ar Pharazon confronted Sauron, Sauron’s own servants deserted him and he was taken as a prisoner to Numenor. After a few years Sauron gained control of Pharazon and through him the Numenorean military. My question is: Why didn’t Sauron use this army against his enemies in Middle Earth, primarily the Elves and Faithful Numenoreans? The Numenoreans in Ar Pharazon’s time surely could have destroyed or enslaved them. Instead, Sauron willingly destroyed his new forces by sending them against the Valar. He knew quite well that this would be their end. Why would he do this?


Please read Post #41

[Alcuin]

Tolkien states Sauron’s motives explicitly in Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed�, “Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion�:…Sauron‘s whole true motive was the destruction of the Númenóreans, [but] this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazôn, for humiliation. Sauron … would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, as his subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.Note that in Letter 156, he writes, “The Valar ... were not allowed to destroy [Men], or coerce them with any ‘divine’ display of the powers they held over the physical world.� I believe part of Sauron’s plan was to draw the Valar and Maiar themselves into rebellion against Eru by inducing them to kill the Númenóreans when they attacked Valinor.

-|-

Don't forget Numenoreans were a blood mixture of elves and men.
In Númenor, only the descendents of Elros were “a blood mixture of elves and men.� The Númenóreans were Dúnedain: “West Edain,� the descendents of the those survivors of the Three Houses of Men allied to the Eldar in their wars against Morgoth in Beleriand who traveled to the island of Elenna, which they called Anadûnê or “Westernesse.�

It was not “mere hatred� that drove Sauron. In Morgoth’s Ring, Tolkien states that Morgoth was a “nihilist�: that is, he wanted the destruction of all Arda: …when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, by other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence… His sole ultimate object was their destruction. …if he had been victorious, he would have ultimately destroyed his own ‘creatures’ … when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men.Of Sauron, Tolkien wrote, Sauron never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it.

[Ellf]

Alcuin,
Was not Sauron also humiliated by Luthien and Huan?

You mean to say the destruction of Arda wouldn't ultimately destroy it's inhabitants?

You mean to say destruction is not driven by Hatred? Please read the whole first paragraph of Post 41 again, not just one word. Try to understand the whole context.

I came up with my response all on my own. From my own reading and comprehension. Not bad for someone who's never read Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed".

[Alcuin]

Was not Sauron also humiliated by Luthien and Huan?They were no longer within proximity: he could not punish or humiliate them in any way. Upon Ar-Pharazôn, however, he could avenge himself. Sauron was nothing if not practically-minded, at least over the intermediate run. And the Númenóreans were not a “mixture of elves and men.� They were not all descendents of Lúthien and Beren: in Númenor, only the descendents of Elros were also descendents of Lúthien and Beren.

You mean to say the destruction of Arda wouldn't ultimately destroy it's inhabitants?Sauron wasn’t trying to destroy Arda. Morgoth was trying to destroy Arda. Sauron wanted to rule Arda.

You mean to say destruction is not driven by Hatred? Please read the whole first paragraph of Post 41 again, not just one word. Try to understand the whole context.Ok, I read it again, and I think I understand your position. Your post is not accurate. In the first paragraph, Sauron was not consumed by hatred for the Númenóreans in the sense that he wanted them all killed. He was perfectly happy with live Númenóreans so long as he ruled them, and in fact he did rule the Black Númenóreans directly or indirectly until until his own demise at the end of the War of the Ring. He wanted Ar-Pharazôn destroyed because Ar-Pharazôn had humiliated him, and if he could induce the Valar to rebel against Eru by enticing them into destroying Ar-Pharazôn’s invasion force, all the better.

Sauron was not out to destroy the world the way Morgoth was. At one point, Tolkien even described Sauron as a “reformer�: in Letter 153 of The Letters of JRR Tolkien, he wrote,…at the beginning of the Second Age [Sauron] … was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all ‘reformers’ who want to hurry up with ‘reconstruction’ and ‘reorganization’ are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up.To paraphrase, that means Sauron believed he knew better than everyone else, and so thought he ought to be in charge, with everyone else doing things his way. If you look around you in the real world, you’ll see “Saurons� in the newspapers and on television – maybe even in school – who want to “hurry up and reform everything,� and who believe that nobody else can do this but them. They don’t want to destroy whatever they want to reform: they want to remake it in their own image, and to suit their own purposes.

I came up with my response all on my own. From my own reading and comprehension. Yes, I think I can clearly see that.

Not bad for someone who's never read Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed".No, not bad. Not bad at all. But it’s not correct in the sense that it does not reflect Tolkien’s subcreation. I’m not attacking you or belittling you: it’s not a bad understanding at all. It’s just not a well-informed understanding.

We come to these forums to learn. Okay, and to show off a little. But if it’s a choice between learning and showing off, choose the learning every time. Showing off can get you embarrassed. (Which is better than what happens in the real world: “Hey, ya’ll! Watch this!� or “Look, Ma! No hands!�) You now know about Morgoth’s Ring. If you’re interested in Tolkien, really interested, go take a look at it. Get a copy from the library, read it, or at least those sections that appeal to you, and tell us what you think about it. You might enjoy reading the part about what motivated Morgoth and Sauron: Morgoth was functional, but ultimately he was way beyond homicidal and possibly insane: his purpose was to destroy whatever anyone and everyone else made. There really are people like this in the real world: you may not have met one yet, or realized that you’ve met one, but you will. Sauron wanted to be in charge. He was ok with Arda: he wanted to rule it: he wanted it for his own. There are people like that, too, and you probably have met and recognized them. (Most people have had their first experience with a selfish “Sauron� by age 5.)

That’s my response. You can take it or leave it; but before you fire off an angry answer, just think about it for a couple of hours.

And find yourself a copy of Morgoth’s Ring. You might like it.

[Landroval]

Alcuin made some excellent points, as usual. I would only like to point out that Myths Transformed is one of the most controversial Tolkien texts in existence. Chris himself has called it "a fearful weapon against his own creation", due to its drastic revision of the entire creation. If there was a quote in Silmarillion which would challenge the MT on the case in question, I would say it is this one, which pretty much equates the path of Sauron with the one of Melkor:
But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

[Ellf]

Alcuin,
I am not angry, and I hope my initial response was not interpreted that way. Maybe a little sarcastic, but in no way angry. I did discover a new thing which you mentioned twice. That not all Numenoreans were descended from Elros. Quite interestingly enough I haven't read the Silmarillion in a few years. I understand your point about Morgoth's intentions vs. Sauron's and I will not give in so easy to any thought. I know my web name is Ellf (which happen to be my initials), but I'm more of a Dwarf if you may (a little stiff necked). So I must say that I will look a little more into it, because I do believe and remember reading in the Sil. that Morgoth wanted the domination of Arda. Now, whether Tolkien wrote this and disagreed with his thoughts later (which I'm finding more and more often), I will find out. This is a thread based upon the Sil. is it not.

Now, regarding ethnic cleansing, I do believe that Sauron had hatred in his heart to murder people and sacrafice them to Morgoth. Also if Tolkien claims Morgoth was a "nihilist" wouldn't his best disciple be one also? Well any how I will look into this a little further, because I do remember reading in the Sil. that Sauron was very similar to his Master.

By the way, why didn't Morgoth destroy the Simarils? Why didn't he destroy Luthien when she was in his presence? Hmmmm?

Sorry for the sarcasim.

[Ellf]

Landroval,
Thank you, you found the passage I was going to begin to look for tonight.
Ellf

[jammi567]

i think Sauron did want to distroy the free peoples of Middle Earth by the end of the Third age, but that was only to regain his one Ring, so that he could control them. Certainly in the early part of the second age, he wanted to corrupt the elves, hense the 20 Rings of Power. And you're correct in saying that Morgoth did want total domination of all of Beleriand. I mean, look at what he did at Nirnaeth Arnoediad and beyond.

"This is consistent with what we know of Sauron's character - he always prefers to work from behind the scenes, manipulating events to his favour. On the rare occasions where he goes into battle himself, he is always defeated. This perhaps helps to explain his decision in the later Second Age not to offer battle to the armies of Númenor."

Encyclopedia of Arda.

[Alcuin]

No problem, Ellf. Sarcasm welcome – I have been accused of overusing it myself. So we have some common ground upon which maneuver.

Morgoth lusted after the Silmarils. Lust is very different from love, and even very different from what we English-speakers called like in the sense of preference. Tolkien’s friend C.S. Lewis wrote a little book, The Four Loves, that explores this difference in its early going; I am reading it now myself. Lust will last a while, but once it is sated, it goes cold, and he who lusted only a brief while ago will have nothing to do with the object for which he lusted once his desire has been satisfied. In the end, Morgoth would have destroyed not only the Silmarils, but all of Arda; but in the meantime, he had the objects that all the Powers of Arda and all the Eldar of Arda sought to possess for different reasons. He had no problem killing the Two Trees whose light was enmeshed in the Silmarils, nor in feeding Ungoliant the bright gems of Fëanor’s hoard until she swelled to monstrous size and able to threaten him. (Surely Ungoliant is also a fallen Maia, but not in the train of Morgoth, although to satisfy her own lusts she cooperated with him for a while.) The fate of Arda, said the Valar, was tied to the Three Jewels, and no doubt Morgoth was aware of this, too: as long as he held them, to some degree, he held the rest of Arda in thrall, and that give him power, for which he also lusted.

Morgoth had every intention of using – or abusing – Lúthien for his own nefarious purposes. It amused his evil disposition to let her run free in his throne room for a while: after all, she was in his power, in the very heart of his realm: how could she ever hope to escape? But in the end, she did – and with Beren, she wrested one of the Silmarils from Morgoth’s crown. Morgoth’s desire for Lúthien was lust, and worse: he had tried ages before to ravish the Maia Arien, who later led the Sun in its passage across the sky of Arda. Morgoth no doubt had very foul intentions for Lúthien. He was far from done with her: he had not even begun.

Perhaps in the end, had he been permitted to continue long enough in his path of evil, Sauron might have become the very kind of nihilist that Morgoth was. Although that is not the inference ones draws from Tolkien’s material, I don’t believe it can be altogether dismissed. Again, it is not an inference I would draw from his detailed explanations, but it is one you have drawn from the materials you have already read.

[jammi567]

Perhaps in the end, had he been permitted to continue long enough in his path of evil, Sauron might have become the very kind of nihilist that Morgoth was. Although that is not the inference ones draws from Tolkien’s material, I don’t believe it can be altogether dismissed. Again, it is not an inference I would draw from his detailed explanations, but it is one you have drawn from the materials you have already read.
Do you call around 6000 years without Morgoth being his boss not enough time?

[Alcuin]

Do you call around 6000 years without Morgoth being his boss not enough time?No, it was not. His first lust was never satisfied: he never ruled Arda.

But I believe you misunderstood me, jammi567. My position is [That] Sauron might have become the very kind of nihilist that Morgoth was ... is not an inference I would draw from [Tolkien’s] detailed explanations...

[jammi567]

So i can understand what you're saying, what does nihilist mean?

[Alcuin]

So i can understand what you're saying, what does nihilist mean?I used the Free Dictionary at refdesk.com ( http://www.refdesk.com/) to get a reasonable start on a definition of nihilist (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nihilist). You might also want to check the Wikipedia definition of nihilism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism). All the same, I am not certain that Tolkien is using that in the defined sense of the word, but more as a connotation indicating that Morgoth ultimately sought the destruction of everything that was not of himself. But even in the strictist definition of nihilism, Morgoth was in a state of incredible self-delusion: he was also a strictly defined nihilist, in that he rejected all truth. He had intimate and direct knowledge of Eru, the One, his Creator, and yet denied Eru’s primacy and authority, and sought to usurp these to himself.

The phrase “doesn’t play well with others� does not even begin to describe Melkor/Morgoth. In several instances, Tolkien refers to him as “the Diabolus.�

[jammi567]

I couldn't agree more.