Using LoTR elements in own writings

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

do you guys think its bad to use lotrs names like...use the name rivendell and lorien in your book? should i change the names a little?


my other one is about a girl who goes into a story to find out why the story is leaking into hers...still not finished...does anyone know the cost to publish a book?

[Acalewia]

I don't know. I've seen LotR names in everyday life. There's a behavioral center near where i live called Rivendell. :o *scraches head* HMM What do you guys think?

[Earniel]

Personally I would avoid using LoTR names in your own writings if you intend on publishing it. If only because the Tolkien Estate seems to employ some very enthousiastic laywers. I remember the instance where the post-company Shiremail got a letter from them demanding they removed the "Shire" part out of their name. Like it was no ordinary word before the books. :rolleyes:

Also, If I would read LoTR-named places such as Rivendell in other people's writings I might see it as a lack in imagination on the part of the writer. Still, it depends on the case.

If for instance you write about an Elven city or settlement with a clear LoTR name, then yes, the writer could have done much better than merely re-using Tolkien's material. It's almost like fanfiction then.

If on the other hand you have a character that lives in a camper and has decided on a whim to name his home Lorien because, while he can't remember where he heard it from, he thought the word sounded kind of cool; or a character who has a dog named Frodo, then it is much more pleasant (for me) to read. In some cases it can even be a way to add something to a character without looking like a writer that can't write without ripping off Tolkien. IMO you just have to consider the seperate cases carefully.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

do you guys think its bad to use lotrs names like...use the name rivendell and lorien in your book? should i change the names a little?

What the Frog-mod said. Listen to her.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

Personally I would avoid using LoTR names in your own writings if you intend on publishing it. If only because the Tolkien Estate seems to employ some very enthousiastic laywers. I remember the instance where the post-company Shiremail got a letter from them demanding they removed the "Shire" part out of their name. Like it was no ordinary word before the books. :rolleyes:

Also, If I would read LoTR-named places such as Rivendell in other people's writings I might see it as a lack in imagination on the part of the writer. Still, it depends on the case.

If for instance you write about an Elven city or settlement with a clear LoTR name, then yes, the writer could have done much better than merely re-using Tolkien's material. It's almost like fanfiction then.

If on the other hand you have a character that lives in a camper and has decided on a whim to name his home Lorien because, while he can't remember where he heard it from, he thought the word sounded kind of cool; or a character who has a dog named Frodo, then it is much more pleasant (for me) to read. In some cases it can even be a way to add something to a character without looking like a writer that can't write without ripping off Tolkien. IMO you just have to consider the seperate cases carefully.
like i was thinking of using rivendell, lorien, mirkwood, rohan. like the actual places and the characters go to them. all i am using is the names and thats it...do you think thats harmful? and what about using Lady Galadriel as a character?

[Earniel]

Then basically you are writing fan fiction. My bad, I thought you were talking about using them in orginal fiction.

There's absolutely nothing wrong or harmful with fan fiction. Valandil for example writes fan fiction about Middle-earth and those stories are wonderful. (Check out the thread 'Visitors come to court')

But publishing your fan fiction, as in printing it in books and selling, would obviously be impossible.

And erm...:o , I notice I went rather off-topic here so that's the last I'm going to say about it in this thread.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

Then basically you are writing fan fiction. My bad, I thought you were talking about using them in orginal fiction.

There's absolutely nothing wrong or harmful with fan fiction. Valandil for example writes fan fiction about Middle-earth and those stories are wonderful. (Check out the thread 'Visitors come to court')

But publishing your fan fiction, as in printing it in books and selling, would obviously be impossible.

And erm...:o , I notice I went rather off-topic here so that's the last I'm going to say about it in this thread.
valandil? ha! thats the name of one of my characters horses!! why would it be impossible to publish? would they sue me?

[Earniel]

You named a horse after a king and Elendil's grandson to boot? Sacrilege! Although I'd like to see Val's face when he reads that. LOL! :D

Copyright issues will prevent you from being able to print fan fiction. You have no legal ownership over the characters and places that Tolkien created, they belong to the Tolkien Estate.

Therefore you can't make money on them by using them in stories that will printed and sold. And the Tolkien Estate has, as I said, rather active lawyers. Even websites that offer for instance a catalogue with Tolkien's poems and songs will receive a cease-and-desist letter the moment the lawyers get wind of it. Suing is, I take it, the next step for those of hard hearing, and the Estate is well within its right to sue.

Even Peter Jackson wasn't even able to make a movie without purchasing the filming rights to do so. That should give you some indication.

A publisher that publishes something in violation with somebody else's copyright can expect a heavy fine at least. So finding a publisher that wants to take the risk in printing unauthorised fan fiction will be rather tricky.

Therefore fan fiction is almost solely limited to the internet. Granted, there are some writers/filmmakers that allow certain other writers to use their created universes in their stories and those stories can be published. Star Wars and Star Trek come to mind. Isaac Asimov even created a whole universe for the simple reason of letting other writers use it to write stories in. But even so, in all those cases permission is a must and requirement.

Off topic again, that's it! I'm splitting this into a seperate thread.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

[QUOTE=Eärniel]You named a horse after a king and Elendil's grandson to boot? Sacrilege! Although I'd like to see Val's face when he reads that. LOL! :D
hehehe sorry about that...you should show him to this thread then...mabye i can get a good laugh out of him?
Copyright issues will prevent you from being able to print fan fiction. You have no legal ownership over the characters and places that Tolkien created, they belong to the Tolkien Estate.
so i could change the names alittle...........
Therefore you can't make money on them by using them in stories that will printed and sold. And the Tolkien Estate has, as I said, rather active lawyers. Even websites that offer for instance a catalogue with Tolkien's poems and songs will receive a cease-and-desist letter the moment the lawyers get wind of it. Suing is, I take it, the next step for those of hard hearing, and the Estate is well within its right to sue.

A publisher that publishes something in violation with somebody else's copyright can expect a heavy fine at least. So finding a publisher that wants to take the risk in printing unauthorised fan fiction will be rather tricky.

soooooooo...i could buy rights to the names could i? or i could slightly alter them.. i change Elrond's name to Elron....arwen's to Arewen with an accent over the first e...and Rivendell to Rivendale
Lorien to lorrien
Lady Galadriel to Lady Galladrial
right....would that WORK?!?!?!???

[Earniel]

I highly doubt you could buy the rights to write and publish Middle-earth themes stories, especially not as a young, starting writer. It not only seems highly improbable to me, I also think it would have been done aaages ago by a lot of people if it was possible. :D

Changing one letter in a name would probably still be too recognisable and personally -mind you, personally- I think it would be pointless and a little silly to try. To me, it would make me look upon the writer who uses those tactics as someone very dishonest, someone who still tries to rip off a well-known and succesful book and does so badly. Or someone who didn't bother to invest in creating his or her own characters, ergo: a writer who has no heart for writing. In case of fan fiction, like the stories you can find on the net, people will merely assume the writer didn't research properly or reread well enough if there are errors in character-names.

Either way it's bound to make you look bad. Anyway, if you have to resort to these tactics I think you might as well try real, original fiction, which IMO will be much more appreciated by the readers.

IMO another thing about writing with other people's characters is that it is also more difficult because you will have to live up to the reader's idea of that character. Tolkien wrote about Galadriel and now the readers know her. If someone else wrote Galadriel into a story, he would have to make her behave like the original one.

That is exactly the reason why I write no fan fiction, or use existing characters only very sparingly. It is too hard for me to write an established character exactly the way the original author meant the character to be. Perhaps this is a perfectionist view, but IMO if you can't write an existing character the way he/she is supposed to, don't bother.

[EDIT: the name itself is, I think, less of a problem. I suppose characters can have names like Arwen and Galadriel. Heck, real people even can have and have these names. I know of a girl named Arwen and a boy named Beren. I could easily write and publish stories about them. But if the character I named Arwen is also a beautiful Elven lady, then the similarities will be too great and the laywers could descend on me like vultures.]

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

If you plan on publishing, change either the names or the nature of the characters using the names entirely.
As Earniel said, if you don't and you don't intend to use it as fanfiction, with a disclaimer, then it's outright plagerism and a Very Bad Thing.

If you really, really want to write about Tolkien's characters and you don't mind not being able to get it published then by all means, write. Fanfiction for yourself can be an excellent method of stress relief and of clearing your mind of unoriginal ideas which might be crowdiing out possibilities for original fiction. :)

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

I highly doubt you could buy the rights to write and publish Middle-earth themes stories, especially not as a young, starting writer. It not only seems highly improbable to me, I also think it would have been done aaages ago by a lot of people if it was possible. :D

Changing one letter in a name would probably still be too recognisable and personally -mind you, personally- I think it would be pointless and a little silly to try. To me, it would make me look upon the writer who uses those tactics as someone very dishonest, someone who still tries to rip off a well-known and succesful book and does so badly. Or someone who didn't bother to invest in creating his or her own characters, ergo: a writer who has no heart for writing. In case of fan fiction, like the stories you can find on the net, people will merely assume the writer didn't research properly or reread well enough if there are errors in character-names.

Either way it's bound to make you look bad. Anyway, if you have to resort to these tactics I think you might as well try real, original fiction, which IMO will be much more appreciated by the readers.

IMO another thing about writing with other people's characters is that it is also more difficult because you will have to live up to the reader's idea of that character. Tolkien wrote about Galadriel and now the readers know her. If someone else wrote Galadriel into a story, he would have to make her behave like the original one.

That is exactly the reason why I write no fan fiction, or use existing characters only very sparingly. It is too hard for me to write an established character exactly the way the original author meant the character to be. Perhaps this is a perfectionist view, but IMO if you can't write an existing character the way he/she is supposed to, don't bother.

[EDIT: the name itself is, I think, less of a problem. I suppose characters can have names like Arwen and Galadriel. Heck, real people even can have and have these names. I know of a girl named Arwen and a boy named Beren. I could easily write and publish stories about them. But if the character I named Arwen is also a beautiful Elven lady, then the similarities will be too great and the laywers could descend on me like vultures.]
whew! ok thanks...i think i will change the names then...do you thing i cant strill use elvish though?

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

If you plan on publishing, change either the names or the nature of the characters using the names entirely.
As Earniel said, if you don't and you don't intend to use it as fanfiction, with a disclaimer, then it's outright plagerism and a Very Bad Thing.

If you really, really want to write about Tolkien's characters and you don't mind not being able to get it published then by all means, write. Fanfiction for yourself can be an excellent method of stress relief and of clearing your mind of unoriginal ideas which might be crowdiing out possibilities for original fiction. :)
thanks for the tips :D ...i'll think of entirely oorginal names and cities and stuff...thanks again for all your help...urg the 90 sec rule lol

[Earniel]

whew! ok thanks...i think i will change the names then...do you thing i cant strill use elvish though?
If we're talking here about the Elven languages that Tolkien devised, then it goes the same as with the characters and places: what you didn't create yourself, you are not allowed to use for your own stories that will be published. It doesn't mean you can't create your own Elvish language, though. But those that Tolkien made are naturally off-limits.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

If we're talking here about the Elven languages that Tolkien devised, then it goes the same as with the characters and places: what you didn't create yourself, you are not allowed to use for your own stories that will be published. It doesn't mean you can't create your own Elvish language, though. But those that Tolkien made are naturally off-limits.
ok thankyou...that IS going to help..i better get started..
*shuffles over to desk and starts writing...gets frustrated and somehow bites tongue and emitts a yelp of pain* lol

[Earniel]

Good luck with it. :)

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

Good luck with it. :)
thankyou...i hope it will work out...i have a lot to do
a language and names...i better hurry

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Study other languages first, I recommend. Familiarity with at least the basic lay-out of more than one language would help a lot with the construction of one's own language.

[Curubethion]

As a random comment in the spirit of this thread, there was a character named "Moria" in Robert Jordan's book A Path of Daggers.

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

What if someone was writing a story in todays world about a character who is obsessed with Tolkien and his work, and calls his horse Shadowfax, and knows Elvish? Would there be a problem then?

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

Study other languages first, I recommend. Familiarity with at least the basic lay-out of more than one language would help a lot with the construction of one's own language.
what kind of langiages did you have in mind? like Tolkien's and some other fantasy writers??

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

As a random comment in the spirit of this thread, there was a character named "Moria" in Robert Jordan's book A Path of Daggers.
thats very interesting..i wonder if i can actually keep that horse name i was talking about...

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

What if someone was writing a story in todays world about a character who is obsessed with Tolkien and his work, and calls his horse Shadowfax, and knows Elvish? Would there be a problem then?
hmmm thats difficult very difficult...i dunno i suppose...what do you think mods? anyone??

[Earniel]

As a random comment in the spirit of this thread, there was a character named "Moria" in Robert Jordan's book A Path of Daggers.
That reminds me how the sci-fi series Babylon 5 had a bunch of fella's calling themselves Rangers, a character named Lorien and an evil place called Zah'dum. But then again Strazinski, the writer, did on one occasion refer to himself as the 'Tolkien of science-fiction', if I'm not mistaken. :rolleyes: (I even recall an old entmoot-thread on the comparison.)

What if someone was writing a story in todays world about a character who is obsessed with Tolkien and his work, and calls his horse Shadowfax, and knows Elvish? Would there be a problem then?
I must admit I wouldn't know. I suppose it will depend on how much detail and Tolkien-elements you eventually use. If I was writing for a living and found myself writing something like that, I'd check with my editor to absolutely be sure.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

so with all these authors using names like "moria" and others...do you think i'd still get away with using Valandil as a horse's name?

[Earniel]

I don't think one horse name is going to cause much trouble.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

I don't think one horse name is going to cause much trouble.
alright cool...how many names do you think someone could use before they got sued?

[Curubethion]

That reminds me how the sci-fi series Babylon 5 had a bunch of fella's calling themselves Rangers, a character named Lorien and an evil place called Zah'dum. But then again Strazinski, the writer, did on one occasion refer to himself as the 'Tolkien of science-fiction', if I'm not mistaken. :rolleyes: (I even recall an old entmoot-thread on the comparison.)

I'm pretty sure that was intentional. Wikipedia had something about it, but I can't find it now. But it mentioned, for example, that someone plunged into an abyss in that Zah'dum place, and then later resurrected. Hmm...sound like anyone's favorite pipeweed-smoking wizard? :p

[Earniel]

alright cool...how many names do you think someone could use before they got sued?
I suppose that's something to be judged case by case.

But personally I think, that if you're trying to rip off as much source material as you can without being sued, you're approaching orginal fiction the wrong way.

I'm pretty sure that was intentional. Wikipedia had something about it, but I can't find it now. But it mentioned, for example, that someone plunged into an abyss in that Zah'dum place, and then later resurrected. Hmm...sound like anyone's favorite pipeweed-smoking wizard? :p
Yeah, you're probably right. I still think he went a leeetle overboard with it.
:p

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

[QUOTE=Eärniel]I suppose that's something to be judged case by case.

But personally I think, that if you're trying to rip off as much source material as you can without being sued, you're approaching orginal fiction the wrong way.

no no no im not trying to rip Tolkien off. i was just curious. i have already started making up my own language and its going pretty well actually. i would not rip him off ...its an insult to his memory

[Earniel]

Then I misunderstood you. Apologies.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

Then I misunderstood you. Apologies.
its alright im not blaming you or anything :) i would think that too if i hadn't typed it.

[Huorn]

I write as a hobby. There is a remote possibility my stuff could get published. The closest to get to using Tolkien elements is to say that the person in the book is a fan of Tolkien. She finds herself in another world that is obviously not Tolkien's, even though her mind tries to make comparisions because this planet had short bearded folk and walking tree creatures. I don't specifically mention Tolkien's creatures, but it is inferred that is what the main character is thinking. It is apparent right away that these beings are not Tolkien Dwarves or Ents.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

I write as a hobby. There is a remote possibility my stuff could get published. The closest to get to using Tolkien elements is to say that the person in the book is a fan of Tolkien. She finds herself in another world that is obviously not Tolkien's, even though her mind tries to make comparisions because this planet had short bearded folk and walking tree creatures. I don't specifically mention Tolkien's creatures, but it is inferred that is what the main character is thinking. It is apparent right away that these beings are not Tolkien Dwarves or Ents.
hmm very interesting...you should make your own thread and post it, get some feedback...its nice to have you back!

[Curubethion]

Slightly different topic, but...
What are everyone's thoughts on making veiled references to literary characters? For example: if you happen to have a halfling race, and you mention a pair of unusually tall halflings popping up in an inn, as minor characters. Most LOTR readers would recognize Merry and Pippin look-alikes, but you never actually put Merry or Pippin into the story.

[Earniel]

Those can be real fun, if used properly, and sparingly IMO. And I can think of at least one published author who I can readily see using that technique.

[IronParrot]

Property rights issues aside, I think there's a very reasonable tendency to gravitate towards Tolkien's languages when it comes to naming people, places and things. Given Tolkien's background, it's no surprise to me that he's the only high fantasy author I can immediately think of whose constructed languages (and nomenclature) make sense, and have a feeling of consistency to them. And you'll notice that when it came to the Rohirrim, he borrowed most of the names and language directly from Old English, which made sense considering the kind of society he was depicting. And George R.R. Martin's names are a very limited departure from Middle English (and its continental counterparts of the period), which makes sense because A Song of Ice and Fire is modelled after the War of the Roses.

Obviously, don't steal. But do acknowledge that even if you go off inventing your own thing, you're following certain principles that were likely inspired by somebody - even if it's as broad as how Tolkien used consonants inflected at the front of the mouth for the Elves to make them seem light and flowing, and lots of hacking/coughing glottal sounds for the Orcs to make them seem, well, dirty.

And please, for the love of God, go easy on the apostrophes.

What are everyone's thoughts on making veiled references to literary characters? For example: if you happen to have a halfling race, and you mention a pair of unusually tall halflings popping up in an inn, as minor characters. Most LOTR readers would recognize Merry and Pippin look-alikes, but you never actually put Merry or Pippin into the story.
Is it clever, or does it make a point? If not, don't do it. This happens more often in literature (across all genres) than you'd think.

[Curubethion]

And please, for the love of God, go easy on the apostrophes.

Lol. You sound like a Robert Jordan reader who's suffered through Rand al'Thor, Nynaeve al'Meara, ta'veren...you get the idea. ;)

[IronParrot]

Lol. You sound like a Robert Jordan reader who's suffered through Rand al'Thor, Nynaeve al'Meara, ta'veren...you get the idea. ;)
Very acute. I think I quit after seven.

[Earniel]

And please, for the love of God, go easy on the apostrophes.
A good advice, that I think may be repeated one more time. :)

In the light of property rights and copyright, I thought this link may be interesting, explaining some of the common misconceptions that go around: 10 myths about copyright (http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html)