LotR, Book VI, Ch-1: The Tower of Cirith Ungol

[Serenoli]

The Tower of Cirith Ungol brings to an end a suspense that was started at the end of The Two Towers, and which was brought to a highlight at the end of Book Five: is Frodo dead or alive?

The chapter deals with how Sam uses the weapons left to him- the Ring, Galadriel's phial, Sting and his plain hobbit-sense. After some deliberation, he screws up the courage to walk into Mordor and he manages to pass the mysterious Watchers with the help of the phial. He scares off two orcs- Snaga and Shagrat, the only orcs alive after a bloody battle between the hundreds who were initially there, over Frodo's belongings, in particular, the mithril-coat. Finally, he discovers Frodo, (alive, hurray!) restores the Ring to him, and disguised as orcs, they leave the dreaded tower. Their perils are not over, though; for the Watchers send out a cry that attracts a nearby nazgul who they have to escape as well.

The mood for Mordor is set in this chapter- Frodo becomes the mysterious third person while Sam becomes the lead voice; the fear and suspense of Mordor, where they are forever fleeing from one danger to the next, (be it Nazguls, orcs, or hunger and thirst) is established. And, finally, the advantages of being a small, unnoticed hobbit become paramount in the quest.

Favourite scenes:

Undoubtedly seeing vicious orcs being scared by Sam! And, also the description of Mordor as Sam first sees it… stark, and bathed in a blood-red light from Mount Doom… creepy.

The indirect help the Elves give them… Galadriel’s phial, ‘Elbereth’ the password, and when they try to pass the Watchers a second time, it is a phrase from an Elvish song sung by Gildor that gives the phial enough strength to break the Watcher’s barrier. It is interesting, too, how Sam begins to sing of the Shire when he gives up Frodo and that, unexpectedly, leads him to Frodo.

Key discussion points:

What is the significance of this chapter, in your opinion?

Why does Sam put on the Ring near the start of the chapter?

Is it ironic that the Ring itself aided Sam by making him seem more powerful than he was, to the Orcs? How much of Sam's deeds can be attributed to his credit, and how much to pure chance?

How does the description of orcs in this chapter tally with your previous impressions of them? Does it reinforce the idea that 'orcs deserve no pity'... or does it make you feel sorry for them?

When Sam hands Frodo the Ring, Frodo has a momentary vision of him as an Orc who is trying to steal his Ring. Compare it to the way he felt when Bilbo wanted a look at his ring, back in Rivendell.

At one point, it is said: "He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows" Sam takes the first choice, and resists its power. Is this Tolkien's way of showing the choice that Frodo had to face, then and later in Mount Doom? Sam's choice is influenced partly by love of his master, and partly by his unconquered hobbit-sense. Do you think that it was harder for Frodo to resist, as he was less like a hobbit, and more Elvish? (He is called Elf-friend many times in the story)

What if Sam had given up Frodo for dead, or unrescuable, without making sure, and had tried to go on and destroy it by himself? What do you think would have happened?

[Olmer]

What if Sam had given up Frodo for dead, or unrescuable, without making sure, and had tried to go on and destroy it by himself? What do you think would have happened?
The same what had happened. Gollum was still there.
Is it ironic that the Ring itself aided Sam by making him seem more powerful than he was, to the Orcs? How much of Sam's deeds can be attributed to his credit, and how much to pure chance?
Seems to me, much of Sam's luck has to be attributed to the Ring. His miraculous passing of ever vigil Watchers, unexpected instigation of bloody fight between the best corps of Mordor, and subsequent travelling with orcs troops , completely unrecognizable, could be related to the power which chanelled his thoughts as a will in some way to dominate others, thus to overcome obstacles, and arranged it accordingly. The power of the One.
How does the description of orcs in this chapter tally with your previous impressions of them? Does it reinforce the idea that 'orcs deserve no pity'... or does it make you feel sorry for them?
No one race of humankind deserves total annihilation. Especially orcs, since their story have never been heard, and whatever information we have got on them was basicaly writen by theirs enemies and by brainwashed individuals.

[Gordis]

Thank you for the neat chapter review, Serenoli. And sorry it had taken me so long to reply.

Why does Sam put on the Ring near the start of the chapter?
Curious, indeed. Probably he acts unconsciously, mechanically, being distressed and uncertain what to do. The Ring had seized the opportunity, and made him put it on without thinking.

Is it ironic that the Ring itself aided Sam by making him seem more powerful than he was, to the Orcs? How much of Sam's deeds can be attributed to his credit, and how much to pure chance?
The Ring did help Sam. After all it was made to dominate those around, the orcs surely.

How does the description of orcs in this chapter tally with your previous impressions of them? Does it reinforce the idea that 'orcs deserve no pity'... or does it make you feel sorry for them?
It makes me sorry for them. They are so VERY human-like in mind... Not some alien monsters as in the movie. They are not automates, they misbehave and act contrary to their orders. We learn in the chapter that they live in fear of the High-Ups, in fear of the Black Pit. It is not explained what it is, but sounds ominous. In the next chapter we will learn that everyone has a personal number - Mordor accuracy and high organisation is evident. No wonder the orcs dream of getting away on their own.

At one point, it is said: "He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows" Sam takes the first choice, and resists its power. Is this Tolkien's way of showing the choice that Frodo had to face, then and later in Mount Doom? Sam's choice is influenced partly by love of his master, and partly by his unconquered hobbit-sense. Do you think that it was harder for Frodo to resist, as he was less like a hobbit, and more Elvish? (He is called Elf-friend many times in the story)
I believe it was harder for Frodo. But not because he was an Elf-friend (Sam was also enchanted by Elves) but because he had the Ring longer - for almost 20 years. Also, he was weakened by the Morgul-wound, wich seemed to accelerate the effects of the Ring. He really became less of a hobbit, more of a wraith. And he started to train his will to dominate the others - willingly or unwillingly. Look how he cowed Gollum.

What if Sam had given up Frodo for dead, or unrescuable, without making sure, and had tried to go on and destroy it by himself? What do you think would have happened?
Perhaps, Sam would have killed Gollum before they got to the Cracks of Doom. And then... I don't think that even the steadfast Sam would have thrown the Ring in.

[CAB]

Thank you very much for the summary Serenoli.

I would second pretty much everything Gordis has already said. I think she makes a very good point about Frodo willingly or unwillingly (or unknowingly) training himself to dominating others. I had never picked up on that before.

How much of Sam's deeds can be attributed to his credit, and how much to pure chance?In a sense, Sam deserves all the credit. He had to have the courage and will to do these things. He did have some help though. Aside from the Ring, I think he also received some aid from some “higher (or maybe even highest) ups”.

When Sam hands Frodo the Ring, Frodo has a momentary vision of him as an Orc who is trying to steal his Ring. Compare it to the way he felt when Bilbo wanted a look at his ring, back in Rivendell.This is an interesting question. I had always thought that the vision of Bilbo was due to the Ring’s effect on Bilbo while the vision of Sam was due to the Ring’s effect on Frodo. After thinking about it though, I believe probably in both cases it was primarily the Ring acting on Frodo. The first vision may have been an early example of the Ring’s hold on Frodo.

[The Gaffer]

Excellent summary; nice discussion points. I'd like to add one:

Does anyone else think that the two tribes of orcs exactly killing each other off was.. er .. a bit challenging in the credibility department?

[Gordis]

Does anyone else think that the two tribes of orcs exactly killing each other off was.. er .. a bit challenging in the credibility department?
I agree...
I think it would have been OK if they killed each other over the Ruling Ring. But over a mithril shirt :eek: - doesn't sound true. Especially the actions of Morgul orcs. They had to remember their orders better and also think about the Black Pit and the Houses of Lamentation. :evil:

[Butterbeer]

mmm ... but what was the ring really up to?

Superb questions Serenoli :) - the best i have seen yet. Very nice summary; short, succinct yet full of interesting debate!

Wotcha Gor!! ... how ya diddling?

Nice to meet you CAB! (have read some of your posts - very interesting - though i must admit sometimes i think ..go on CAB!! go on ..you CAN argue with Gor if ye wants ... ;) ... she likes it anyway! :)

*nods at Eddy*

Always a pleasure lord Olmer!

hey Val if you are around??



yes, we see almost a human face to the Orcs for almost the first time. it always amazes me how just because Tolkien said somewhere that the wars etc were not great influences how all the major over-riding influence all over his works and thoughts gets sidetracked .... did it ever occur to them that JRRT was probably gently leant on to say this??

yet two major world wars, civil war in europe, the horros and stupidity of the trenches, Mass genocide, Industriliastion ... terror, Communism, Fascism, weapons of mass destruction etc ... all made no impact on his life and thus his writings? Thought control, using the free will and humans as human pawns in bloody war games ...

Phuh- lease.

Sorry, but i for one just will not buy it for a second - besides it is all there in the LOTR.

I also love Serenoli, how Sam appears with a power hidden yet felt, with a shadow looming large above him as some mighty warrior / power or tark of some forgotten age ...


Just what is the ring up to here?? I agree it is inflicting its influence as it enters Mordor and nears the Fire ... but it is not Sauron's will seemingly.

For me Sam is harder for the Ring in some ways to work on ... frodo always had a more cutting, sharper mind and stronger will / more pride than Sam ... Sam was infused with solid unbreakable devotion ... a clear must-do attitude as thick as any bricks ...but also suffused with LOVE ... a treeksy one for the ONE!!

The gaffer:Excellent summary; nice discussion points. I'd like to add one:

Does anyone else think that the two tribes of orcs exactly killing each other off was.. er .. a bit challenging in the credibility department?

It was the ring!
Were there not nazgul close?

[Gordis]

Wotcha Gor!! ... how ya diddling?
Thanks!
- Good... or, maybe, bad. If only I knew what "diddling" is! :confused: :p

[CAB]

Nice to meet you CAB! (have read some of your posts - very interesting - though I must admit sometimes I think ..go on CAB!! go on ..you CAN argue with Gor if ye wants ... ;) ... she likes it anyway! :)
Nice to meet you too Butterbeer. I do find it a bit difficult to argue with Gordis. She knows this stuff better than I do. But she has never been anything but polite. I hope you stay around Butterbeer.

[Olmer]

yes, we see almost a human face to the Orcs for almost the first time. it always amazes me how just because Tolkien said somewhere that the wars etc were not great influences how all the major over-riding influence all over his works and thoughts gets sidetracked .... did it ever occur to them that JRRT was probably gently leant on to say this??

yet two major world wars, civil war in europe, the horros and stupidity of the trenches, Mass genocide, Industriliastion ... terror, Communism, Fascism, weapons of mass destruction etc ... all made no impact on his life and thus his writings? Thought control, using the free will and humans as human pawns in bloody war games ...Phuh- lease.
Sorry, but i for one just will not buy it for a second - besides it is all there in the LOTR.
Pleasure is mine, Butterbeer . Don't have too much time to get into discussions, but always glad to see reappearance of old acquintances. Hang in there...;)
Agree with you. It is impossible to live in society and don't have any associations or not to be even remotedly affected by the events which were shaking up the better half of the World. Tolkien was not an exeption. How you can write a story devoid of allegories, if even your thinking about real life events associated with terms taken from the book?
From Tolkien's letters to his son Christopher in 1944, this is how he was describing the war.
If anguish were visible, almost the whole of this benighted planet would be enveloped in a dense dark vapor, shrouded from the amazed vision of the Heavens!

For we are attempting to conquer Sauron with the Ring. And we shall (it seems) succeed. But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed another Saurons, and slowly turn men and elves into Orcs.
Not that in real life things are as clear cut as in the story, and we started out with a great many Orcs on our side...
You are inside a very great story!

He wanted it or not, but the story was heavily influenced by his personal attitude regarding important events of his time and its participants, as he absorbed it from the laden with propaganda newspapers and radios. So, in the "LotR" are 2 diametrical opposite sides: Black and White, and they, who on the black side, don't have any grace and don't deserve any mercy. :(

But the whole beauty in the "LotR" is that it CAN'T be viewed as a correct source of descriptions of Arda's inhabitants, because, as Tolkien claims, he made a translation from the "Red Book of Westmarch", written by scribes of Gondor and by hobbits of Shire on the base of the original Red Book, a compilation of stories, which have been added and many times rewriten during passing milleniums.
So, most of the time the dialogs are not written, as it had been heard by an eyewitness, but have been reconstructed some time later from the memory of the observers, or just remodeled according to believes of the writer.

We don't know EXACTLY what Shagrat and Gorbag were talking about, because we can't be sure how accurate could it stay in the memory of Sam, and how precisely Frodo put this story in writing .
Actually, considering Tolkien's assumptions that his "translation" also could be not exactly correct, we have to assume that we can't judge about the real
portray of the War of the Rings, basing our opinions on the words of persons in the story, because they represent the White side and their description of events and races is biased by the "popular believes".

Therefore, we can't get a real picture of orcs or of their actions by studying one-sided preconceived observation. It is similar to the impression we will get about the leaders of the past, if, not knowing nothing about them and how do they look like, we would look at the pictures of them made by theirs enemies. :evil: German-Austrian emperors, princes and generals. (http://www.postcardman.net/135029.jpg)

So we can judge orcs doings by the scrupulous study of the story's canvas. And in this canvas some threads are not so closely woven, leaving plenty of space for speculations and assumptions.

For me the deadly fight between two commands of orcs, which supposed to be among the top of Mordor's army, looks kind of unnatural, too.
Which means that it was stemming from something unnatural - in particular, Sam with the Ring on his finger unconsciously giving an ordes to orcs, and they can't obey the will of the Ring. :eek:

[The Gaffer]

hey BB.

Never considered that it might be the Ring at work, though I also like the passage with Sam seeming to the orcs to hold some terrifying power.

But there are so many instances of the Ring "trying to reveal itself" to its Master elsewhere in the story that I don't think it would do the opposite.

[Gordis]

Thanks for kind words, CAB.
And Olmer, I agree wholeheartedly with your view of Tolkien's works.

By the way, Olmer's idea that it was the Ring that caused the orc fight is awesome! I never thought about it, but it is quite possible.


But there are so many instances of the Ring "trying to reveal itself" to its Master elsewhere in the story that I don't think it would do the opposite.
After all the Ring was not exactly sentient, IMHO.

I don't think it really hears, or sees, or thinks, most likely it perceives the thoughts of its bearer. For instance, it "sees", or 'feels' the nazgul only when Frodo is aware of them, not before. And then it acts on Frodo making him put it on. Because it "prefers" to be with a nazgul, rather than with Frodo. :)

But I am not sure, if it "prefers" to be with an orc rather than with a hobbit. ;) Because it didn't "call" to the orc whom Sam met in Cirith Ungol. It daunted the orc instead, helping Sam. Why? probably the hobbit was carrying it into the right direction, towards its master. I doubt the Ring ever "knew" that they were going to destroy it in Mordor, it was just content to move in the right direction - towards its Master.

So, perhaps, when Sam put on the Ring approaching the Gate of Cirith Ungol, the Ring only felt his plight. Ii understood, that its bearer desperately needed to kill some orcs - too many for him alone. So the ring "helped", rather subtly, making orcs forget their orders over a stupid mithril shirt. :)
Because, the Ring is not really a weapon of war, no super-sword, or a bomb, it is uniquely a psychological weapon.

Interesting, it was not how the Ring acted when Isildur wore it. Then it called to any creature around, orcs included, "preferring" anybody to the hated Isildur, slayer of the Master:The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dûr, sent out long before to watch the passes, 20 and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to all his servants for their aid. -UT

[Butterbeer]

By the way, Olmer's idea that it was the Ring that caused the orc fight is awesome! I never thought about it, but it is quite possible.


hey Gor! :)

erm "Diddling?" .... generally .. just getting along you know?

(it's a people friendly how ya diddly-doing you know??? :D )

ref the quote above- well... er, whatever! :) .. but for the record i always thought that from the very first time i ever read the book...


... but it really doesn't matter.

What does matter is that, we have intelligent discussion about the books being allowed! :)

Good on you.

best all, BB

[Menelanna]

I think that the importance of this chapter was to show the readers that Sam was also a very important member of the fellowship. Up until this point, he was always overshadowed by Frodo, or by one of the other members. This chapter was his time to shine. This chapter was used to prove that Sam was more than a "yes-man" or whatever, he proved strong, loving, smart, and brave.

I think that the reason that Sam put the ring on when he did was both because he needed to be invisible to get by the orcs and also because the Ring wanted him to put it on. Why did the Ring want him to put it on? If you've noticed while reading, the ring only drew attention to itself when it was close to being discovered by someone that would take it back to its master. After all, wasn't part of its master used in creating it? That's why it was so strong. And that's why it was always searching for a way for it to be reuinted with its master.

Sam's deeds in this chapter are mostly because of Sam. Did the ring aid him in his acheivement? Well yes, when he needed to be invisble, he used it. But for the most part, it was because he knew what to do. Mostly because he knew that his master was in danger and he was his master's only help. He used all of the things that he had in his power to get the job done. I don't think he even realized what he was capible of until he was put into that situation to where he had to act.

Frodo's vision of Sam turning into an orc was proof that the ring was working on Frodo, but I believe that when Frodo saw a glimpse of Bilbo looking like Golum was a sign of how the ring was influencing Biblo. Biblo did have the ring a very long time, and if you recall when we were first introduced to the ring, Biblo did refer to the ring as his "precious" just as Gollum did. Bilbo was desiring the ring, even if it was just to hold it for a minute. And yes, I believe that the ring had used the vision as a way to influence Frodo also. As Gandalf had said, the ring had chosen Frodo.

[CAB]

Nice post Menelanna. I think you are right that one of the primary purposes of this chapter is to show us that Sam is capable of quite a bit, as you say he is not just a “yes-man”. One of the things that interests me about Sam is that, to the best of my knowledge, he is the only character in the stories of Middle Earth who accomplishes something great yet doesn’t have some sort of high lineage (high lineage being relative, depending on the group of people to whom the character belongs).

I don’t think the Ring chose Frodo though. It might have chosen Bilbo since he was the one to pick it up but more likely it was Eru who chose both Bilbo and Frodo to hold the Ring.

‘Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought.’ -Gandalf to Frodo, The Fellowship of the Ring

[Butterbeer]

Interesting, it was not how the Ring acted when Isildur wore it. Then it called to any creature around, orcs included, "preferring" anybody to the hated Isildur, slayer of the Master:

Interesting point indeed.

Raises the question could the ring master others, but also therefore also BE mastered by others if they were of sufficeint will power and strength? - after all this was of course NEVER an issue with Sauron since to a large degree they are (or WERE) one and the same.

Actually i think the WERE question is just as interesting to look at ...

But if, as you suggest, Gor, the ring called out (this suggests a fair level of Sentience to some degree in itself possibly ...) - then is this because it feared being enslaved ITSELF??? i.e. by the will of Isuldur?

How much do we, now, after so many years sundered, see the ring as a seperate entity to Sauron, ... or not?

Remember that for many of these years Sauron was bodiless and weak - yet the ring?


best, BB

[Gordis]

I am not sure that the Ring was smart enough to answer the questions such as "what if Isildur masters me one day?"

It just hated him, felt bad near him, burned his hand, tried to get away at every opportunity. Perhaps it was calling strongly to those around Isildur: his sons, his men, orcs...

With Gollum the ring was not so active: it certainly didn't call to orcs, or Gollum would have been captured long ago, invisible or not. But it found a hobbit and got out of the caves. Later, with Bilbo and Frodo, the Ring behaved rather well. It acted only when it felt a nazgul nearby. It must have been fond of nazgul. :D :p

[Butterbeer]

:D

but what if it was actually THE RING itself that was seeking the hobbits -that Picked Bilbo and thus frodo?

The ring that (as discussed inthe tower of Cirith Ungol disc thread) actively helped Sam to rescue frodo - and made them appear as orcs to hasten them towards the fire?

maybe it wasn't just the Nazgul that felt trapped or feared Sauron getting the ring?

Odd isn't it that it never betrayed Gollum and found a a vassal in the Mountains to help it find it's "Master" ??

[Gordis]

I think the Ring knew that NO ONE was strong enough to throw it into the fire.

And it was right.

It knew, that Frodo would claim it, and that would lead it into Sauron's hands inevitably.

So, it helped Sam and Frodo to hasten towards Mt.Doom, slowly acting on Frodo's mind and knowing what he will do better than he did himself. :) :p

[Butterbeer]

ahhh Gor ...but Sam's mind?

That didn't worry it??

I mean it had enough problems trying to corrupt Bilbo, over so many years, he who took the ring in that momment with pity in his heart.

Sam, infused with love, devotion and steadfast common sense and about as corruptible as an Angel's tear of of joy ...

this when they are closing in on the Fire and time is potentially short????

If the ring had betrayed Sam then, and not (perhaps) caused the Fighting madness and rivalry between the Orcs ... would it not have it safely been on it's alleged "master's" hands within a day at most?

Nay, for me the ring was at work, but not for it's supposed Master ...

Sam's mind would frighten it silly methinks - not enough time for it to work on - and very little in terms of levers or arrogance etc in Sam's mind to work WITH!

Also - those watchers of Adamant at the gates to the tower - did they block out the ring's presence from Sau also?

Tis odd that he does not sense the ring being worn in his own land.

and what of the consistently " i seen nuthin' Guv, honest ..." nazgul that yet again cannot see or sense them as they escape the Tower?

your thoughts?

:D

best, BB

[Gordis]

What do you expect of me, BB? To agree that the Ring was suicidal? No way! :p :D

ahhh Gor ...but Sam's mind?
That didn't worry it??

I mean it had enough problems trying to corrupt Bilbo, over so many years, he who took the ring in that momment with pity in his heart.

Sam, infused with love, devotion and steadfast common sense and about as corruptible as an Angel's tear of of joy ...

Right, Sam was much of a problem for the Ring. Frodo, made more vulnerable by his Morgul wound, was slowly falling under the Ring's influence. Therefore, when Sam acted to rescue Frodo, the Ring helped him! It wanted to get back to Frodo and continue its corruptive work.

If the ring had betrayed Sam then, and not (perhaps) caused the Fighting madness and rivalry between the Orcs ... would it not have it safely been on it's alleged "master's" hands within a day at most?
Not necessarily. An orc could have taken the ring and run away, hiding somewhere - in Moria, in Gundabad - whatever. Try to find him! :p With Frodo, the Ring knew it was going the right direction.

Tis odd that he does not sense the ring being worn in his own land.
He did sense something, IMO, but it is said that his own fumes obstructed his vision.

and what of the consistently " i seen nuthin' Guv, honest ..." nazgul that yet again cannot see or sense them as they escape the Tower?
Right. Nazgul as usual either "don't see" or "don't tell"...

[jammi567]

i know this is probally insignificant, but in Book 4 Ch 10, The Choices of Master Samwise, he puts on the Rings when he hears orc voices, and hasn't taken it off by the end of the chapter. Yet in Book 6 Ch 1, The Tower of Cirith Ungol, it says "Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again." inconsistancy or what. :)

Anyways, what do you think the Nazgul at the end of the chapter is doing because it seems a bit too early for the Which-kings death, and i don't think it could be for the wail of the Watchers because why would the tower need a nazgul nearby if they are all meant to be elsewere, and Sauron, i think at this point of time, hasn't heard of Frodo's capture yet? :)

[Gordis]

i know this is probally insignificant, but in Book 4 Ch 10, The Choices of Master Samwise, he puts on the Rings when he hears orc voices, and hasn't taken it off by the end of the chapter. Yet in Book 6 Ch 1, The Tower of Cirith Ungol, it says "Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again." inconsistancy or what. :)

Inconsistancy, yes, IMHo. Tolkien forgot to tell us that Sam removed the Ring sometime before putting it on again.

Anyways, what do you think the Nazgul at the end of the chapter is doing because it seems a bit too early for the Which-kings death, and i don't think it could be for the wail of the Watchers because why would the tower need a nazgul nearby if they are all meant to be elsewere, and Sauron, i think at this point of time, hasn't heard of Frodo's capture yet? :)
That was the very early hours of March 15. The WK was bombarding the City and then breaking the Gates. The nazgul in question, most likely flew either to or from Barad Dur with news one way and orders another way. The flight route naturally passed over Cirith Ungol. The nazgul heard the Watchers and came to investigate. Likely, he continued on, after summoning the orcs, after all, he had messages to bear. Then Sauron, hearing of the massacre, send a nazgul to command the fortress.

Now that I think about it, the nazgul must have been flying TO Barad-Dur. He reported to Sauron and then was sent directly back to take command of the tower. Otherwise, too little time to find another nazgul in time to send scouts who nearly caught the hobbits later.

[Serenoli]

This is so annoying! The first few days, I was very disappointed because hardly anyone was interested in my summary, and only when I stopped checking, you all started discussing it! :rolleyes:

I was most interested in this discussion of what the Ring was really upto. There seem to be a number of explanations... Gor says it realized Sam was intent on rescuing Frodo, and decided to help so he could get to Frodo who is more corrupted. This makes sense to me. First, he tried to seduce Sam, showing him the vision of those gardens, and him as the master of them, etc. That didn't work very well, so then, it would try to get back to Frodo, who it knew was easier to bend to its will...

But, there are still unexplained instances of the Ring's behaviour. As BB points out somewhere, why didn't it chose some other vassal in the Mountains? It is mentioned, I think, that Gollum frequently attacked orcs who came to the Mountain, and killed them with the aid of the Ring. If, at the time when Isildur had the Ring, it was willing to have an orc, why should it care now, especially as its an orc vs. Gollum (who is curiously resistant, and won't get out of his cave, no matter what)? How easy it would be to psychologically warn an orc, who then kills Gollum, takes the Ring as his own, and once complete domination is achieved, the Ring leads him to Sauron? Surely, it knew, when no one else did, that Sauron was alive, and could tell where he was?

A possibility is that, perhaps as the years passed, and the Ring felt itself to be more of a seperate entity, maybe it began to like being the Master over someone else (remember it had all Sauron's evil) and liked less being the one who was mastered by Sauron. :rolleyes: :D But, that explanation leads to too many new questions in my mind...

[CAB]

While the idea that the Ring purposely aided Sam by causing the Orcs’ in the tower to fight and frightening off the single Orc in the hallway is very interesting, I can’t agree with it. In my opinion, the Ring and Sauron were two parts of the same being, as Butterbeer said earlier. Unless it was mastered by another, it would be completely loyal to Sauron.

Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. Letter #246
It is entirely possible that the Ring was “loudly” calling to Sauron and his servants when Sam scared the Orc in the hallway. The Orc just didn’t understand the message the Ring was sending out (why would he?) Also remember that Sam felt compelled to put on the Ring when he realized that the Orc was approaching (he just didn’t have time to do this). Forcing it’s bearer to put the Ring on seems to be it’s main way of trying to reveal itself to Sauron.

If the Ring could force Orcs to fight each other to aid it’s holder or aid it’s recovery by Sauron, then why didn’t it do so in Moria? By far the most likely scenario during the battle there was the Ring being taken by the Balrog. It just didn’t happen to work out that way, by some miracle.

Which brings us back to the Orcs destroying each other in the tower. This is just so...ridiculous, that to me, the only logical answer is intervention by Eru.

[Olmer]

By far the most likely scenario during the battle there was the Ring being taken by the Balrog. It just didn’t happen to work out that way, by some miracle..
Did not happen because at that time was another ringbearer, who did not dream about putting the ring on finger, or had any will to decide on farther actions, Gandalf was a leader and carried on according his own judgement.
Which brings us back to the Orcs destroying each other in the tower. This is just so...ridiculous, that to me, the only logical answer is intervention by Eru
According Galadriel, and she knew what she was saying, the ring "gives a power according the measure of each possessor" and Frodo, if he wished could order Nazgul and send his thoughts to others. Frodo is mentally and physically was much weaker, than a laborer and no-noncense Sam, so, to me here is nothing stange, or ridiculous that he managed to channel his thoughts in more direct fasion. Like poor Eru has nothing else to do besides arranging a brawl between two local group of brutes. :D

[CAB]

to me here is nothing stange, or ridiculous that he managed to channel his thoughts in more direct fasion.
Olmer, I hope you don’t think I was saying the idea that the Ring caused the fight is ridiculous. I wouldn’t do that (though I don’t agree with this idea :) ). What is ridiculous is that the Orcs all (almost all) destroyed each other just in time for Sam to rescue Frodo, whatever the cause.

Did not happen because at that time was another ringbearer, who did not dream about putting the ring on finger, or had any will to decide on farther actions
This is related to much of my problem with this idea. The fight in the tower started before Sam put the Ring back on and (so far as I can tell) without Sam specifically wishing for this kind of aid. Look at what Galadriel said to Frodo:
‘You have not tried,’ she said. ‘Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try!’
I think this statement tells us a lot about how the Ring works (assuming Galadriel knows what she is talking about, of course). 1. To use these kinds of powers the holder must be wearing the Ring. 2. There must be a conscious and specific effort put forth. 3. The holder must recognize the power of the Ring.

I don’t think that numbers 1 or 2 apply to Sam in this situation and it is actually questionable whether or not 3 does.

Like poor Eru has nothing else to do besides arranging a brawl between two local group of brutes. :D
I really don’t like to use the divine aid argument myself. To me, it is much like using foresight to explain the actions of those who possess this power. You can really use it on any occasion (something like: Gandalf went to Moria knowing that he would be killed, knowing that he would be resurrected, knowing that this was a key to defeating Sauron or even Elrond decided to wear green that day because he foresaw that he would wear green that day). So I think that, without a lot of evidence, things like foresight and divine aid should be something of an “argument of last resort”. In the case of the Orcs’ fight in the tower though, I am willing to use the idea of Eru’s involvement, because this battle is so incredibly convenient and because (for me at least) there is no other good explanation.

[The Gaffer]

Wow. It seems like we've agreed that there is a big massive plot hole in LOTR :eek:

[Landroval]

Wow. It seems like we've agreed that there is a big massive plot hole in LOTR :eek:
I doubt; orcs starting a fight over some pretty shirt isn't that unnatural; later on, in the Land of shadow, the orc tracker kills the soldier just because they started cursing each other; even in the Hobbit it is stated that orcs hated everything and everyone (just as Melkor did). This all seems pretty orcish to me ;).

[The Gaffer]

Then one has to wonder how the **** they got thousands of 'em to march across continents instead of going off pillaging wherever.

[Landroval]

I would say it's Sauron's power; according to the Field of Cormallen, RotK:
and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them
As Gordis liked to point, Sauron isn't in charge of his minions all the time ;).

[CAB]

I doubt; orcs starting a fight over some pretty shirt isn't that unnatural; later on, in the Land of shadow, the orc tracker kills the soldier just because they started cursing each other; even in the Hobbit it is stated that orcs hated everything and everyone (just as Melkor did). This all seems pretty orcish to me ;).
I really don’t think that is a sufficient answer in this case. Sam just happened to be back-tracking through Shelob's tunnel (and thus managed to avoid arriving too early) while most of the fighting was going on and they just happened to finish as he reached the tower entrance. Luckily, there just happened to be enough Orcs left to hold a conversation to let Sam (and us) know what was going on and also to lead Sam to where Frodo was being kept.

99% (or very close to it) of the Orcs in the tower were killed. When groups of Orcs battle each other how often do you think there is this kind of casualty rate? Also remember that these are groups of Orcs in Mordor and with Nazgul nearby. They aren’t very far away from some (no doubt) very severe punishment for this kind of behavior. Yes, the tracker and soldier you mentioned were also in Mordor, but they were just two and were far away from any leaders. I think there had to be more to this than just Orcs being Orcs.

[The Gaffer]

CAB said it.

Also, good quote Landroval. This idea of Sauron's will inhabiting them in some way is something that we often forget in discussing other stuff.

[Landroval]

I really don’t think that is a sufficient answer in this case. Sam just happened to be back-tracking through Shelob's tunnel (and thus managed to avoid arriving too early) while most of the fighting was going on and they just happened to finish as he reached the tower entrance. Luckily, there just happened to be enough Orcs left to hold a conversation to let Sam (and us) know what was going on and also to lead Sam to where Frodo was being kept.

99% (or very close to it) of the Orcs in the tower were killed. When groups of Orcs battle each other how often do you think there is this kind of casualty rate? Also remember that these are groups of Orcs in Mordor and with Nazgul nearby. They aren’t very far away from some (no doubt) very severe punishment for this kind of behavior. Yes, the tracker and soldier you mentioned were also in Mordor, but they were just two and were far away from any leaders. I think there had to be more to this than just Orcs being Orcs.
His decision to "jump in" was taken _after_ he put on the ring and heard the orcs fighting. He also knew from Shelob's lair where Frodo will be hold. As to the orcs killing each other to the last ones, I don't think they would consider whether a living orc was of their own company or not - they would slay each other to the last, regardless - there was no stopping; fury, madness, greed and the presence of a mysterious fighter around was more than enough reason. Sam also didn't hear any signs of battle when he advanced; should he have heard, he probably would have stopped advancing or taken whatever other action. In conclusion, I don't see anything forced here.

[Butterbeer]

Orcs will be Orcs!

(or as Big C said somewhere recently ...

Did you know that all orcs are "cosmetically unique"? )


cosmetically unique dudes will be cosmetically unique!


......................................

Question:

If we assume that the ring and Sauron are a duality, and that we can only assume that sauron thinks he can control the ring, or that he beleives the ring is trying to get back to a "master": and we can only assume this on the basis that Gandalf is at best summising this ... even Tolkein himself states in the much quoted letter 246 ...that sauron has to make the ring obey him ...thus implying against its own will ...



and that after being away from Sauron's weakened fea and had a nice holiday and rest by the river etc ....

if we assume it IS a duality: which is the stronger? Sauron or the ring?

[Landroval]

if we assume it IS a duality: which is the stronger? Sauron or the ring?
Considering that even if Gandalf had mastered the ring, there would be a delicate balance between the ringed-Gandalf and ringless-Sauron, I would say that Sauron has retained more power than there is in the ring.

[Gordis]

A post where I agree :D :

I agree with CAB here:
I really don’t think that is a sufficient answer in this case. Sam just happened to be back-tracking through Shelob's tunnel (and thus managed to avoid arriving too early) while most of the fighting was going on and they just happened to finish as he reached the tower entrance. Luckily, there just happened to be enough Orcs left to hold a conversation to let Sam (and us) know what was going on and also to lead Sam to where Frodo was being kept.

99% (or very close to it) of the Orcs in the tower were killed. When groups of Orcs battle each other how often do you think there is this kind of casualty rate? Also remember that these are groups of Orcs in Mordor and with Nazgul nearby. They aren’t very far away from some (no doubt) very severe punishment for this kind of behavior. Yes, the tracker and soldier you mentioned were also in Mordor, but they were just two and were far away from any leaders. I think there had to be more to this than just Orcs being Orcs.

And I agree with Landroval here:
Considering that even if Gandalf had mastered the ring, there would be a delicate balance between the ringed-Gandalf and ringless-Sauron, I would say that Sauron has retained more power than there is in the ring.

What a nice short post! :p :)

[CAB]

Considering that even if Gandalf had mastered the ring, there would be a delicate balance between the ringed-Gandalf and ringless-Sauron, I would say that Sauron has retained more power than there is in the ring.
I agree with Landroval’s logic here, but I am almost sure I remember there being a quote somewhere saying that Sauron put the greater part of his power into the Ring. That would complicate this question a bit.

Just to throw out a little conspiracy theory here (not to be taken too seriously); maybe the Nazgul instigated the fight in the tower. It has been argued before that they wanted the Ring to be destroyed. The Witch King had just recently sensed the Ring outside Minas Morgul. It would seem that the Orcs that started the fight were under the Witch King’s command. A Nazgul very conveniently showed up just after Sam and Frodo escaped from the tower (not before, when the alarm was first raised), and seems to have (again conveniently) not noticed the Ring.

[Serenoli]

There, right there, CAB, is a brilliant idea for an rpg. LotR: the Inside Story, or something like that! :rolleyes:

hmmm, it is true that Sauron put most of his power into the Ring, but what kind of power? If the Ring has less willpower than Sauron, then it will, still, be undoubtedly weaker...

[Landroval]

I am almost sure I remember there being a quote somewhere saying that Sauron put the greater part of his power into the Ring.
Well, there is this quote from Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion:
"And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring"
but it doesn't imply that the greater power has been transferred.
It has been argued before that they wanted the Ring to be destroyed.
The nazgul stand or fall by Sauron; if the ring perishes, so will they. I don't think they are suicidal, though work-related stress might leave its marks :D.
A post where I agree :D :
I agree with CAB here:
And I agree with Landroval here:
What a nice short post! :p :)
Please decide on either of us :p; I dislike competition :D ;)

[Butterbeer]

Shame on you Gor, CAB and Landroval ... :p

... what is this 'agreement' notion that you speaketh of?



Considering that even if Gandalf had mastered the ring, there would be a delicate balance between the ringed-Gandalf and ringless-Sauron, I would say that Sauron has retained more power than there is in the ring.

Actually, i DO disagree with this. I don't think this is actually relevant here: I see it not as a simple mathematical sum,

Gandalf's power plus the One Ring's power versus Sauron's power



The point is here, no one doubts as and when gandlaf finally masters the ring and focuses his will into getting the full power and command fromj himself and the ring, that he would defeat Sauron with all his rings, and armies and fortresses / allies etc ...

the point from your quote relates more to the time and effort it would take gandalf to become the Ringlord and Lord of the rings, whilst sauron would have a window of opportunity with his armies and allies to attempt to defeat gandalf in this time.

Thus i think it bears little to no relevance to the Ring V's sauron.



... saying that Sauron put the greater part of his power into the Ring.

Yes, this is what i refer to: and indeed for the whole history of Middle Earth and the rings of power to make any sense it must be so!

Else why, when the ring is severed from him does Sauron flee, a disembodied fea?

Why when the ring is personally delivered into the fire by Gollum and Co the toothy couriers ... does the foundations of baradur (built with the power of the ring) and Sauron vanish in a twinkle of a hobbit lasses's eye?

[Butterbeer]

There, right there, CAB, is a brilliant idea for an rpg. LotR: the Inside Story, or something like that! :rolleyes:

hmmm, it is true that Sauron put most of his power into the Ring, but what kind of power? If the Ring has less willpower than Sauron, then it will, still, be undoubtedly weaker...


wotcha Serenoli!


Nay, fair maiden, think rather that the power and the willpower are all there manifest in the ring...


... but it is a ring! a golden ring for sure .... it has not mouth nor arms nor legs to carry it ... it is the spirit and will and power, but mainly it is a ring ...never ended signifying many things ...


IT IS A CONDUIT.

[Butterbeer]

There, right there, CAB, is a brilliant idea for an rpg. LotR: the Inside Story, or something like that! :rolleyes:

hmmm, it is true that Sauron put most of his power into the Ring, but what kind of power? If the Ring has less willpower than Sauron, then it will, still, be undoubtedly weaker...


wotcha Serenoli!


Nay, fair maiden, think rather that the power and the willpower are all there manifest in the ring...


... but it is a ring! a golden ring for sure .... it has not mouth nor arms nor legs to carry it ... it is the spirit and will and power, but mainly it is a ring ...never ended signifying many things ...


IT IS A CONDUIT.
IT CHANNELS ENERGY AND FOCUSES THE WILLS OF ADAMANT.
It is also designed to ensnare and encompass the powers and wills of the other rings / ringbearers.

For all the raw power and evil will, it, like any tool, it needs a craftsman to wield it and use it ... only then when the mind of the user engages it can the will and evil of the ring begin to try and take hold of the ringlord ...thus it never really got a true grip on Gollum, other than low-level ring radioactive "leakage" as it were, over time, knawing away at his mind...


It uses or is used willingly or quite often even unknowingly or not each user "according to their abilities" ...but only when it is being worn and to some low level way engaged can it effect anything ...

this, i think, we see at Cirith Ungol.

But the Ring itself is to me the dominant (potentially) part of the duality...

Landroval:though work-related stress might leave its marks . :D

Indeed :D

[Landroval]

The point is here, no one doubts as and when gandlaf finally masters the ring and focuses his will into getting the full power and command fromj himself and the ring, that he would defeat Sauron with all his rings, and armies and fortresses / allies etc ...
Letter #246 reffers to one-on-one confrontation between Gandalf and Sauron; it also states that should Elrond or Galadriel (who are one of the most powerful beings in Middle-Earth) master the ring they would not contemplate such a confrontation with Sauron.
the point from your quote relates more to the time and effort it would take gandalf to become the Ringlord and Lord of the rings
I am not aware such a refference exists.
only then when the mind of the user engages it can the will and evil of the ring begin to try and take hold of the ringlord
I disagree; Gandalf refuses even the safe-keeping of the ring, fearing its corruptive power.
Else why, when the ring is severed from him does Sauron flee, a disembodied fea?

Why when the ring is personally delivered into the fire by Gollum and Co the toothy couriers ... does the foundations of baradur (built with the power of the ring) and Sauron vanish in a twinkle of a hobbit lasses's eye?
It seems to me we are talking about different things. The fact, in itself, that the ring has a major influence over the bodily existence of Sauron and his creations still doesn't tell us much about the ring's "martial" power; critical does not imply powerful. To make an analogy, the computer that controls a nuclear reactor doesn't have much power in itself, though its dissappearance would destroy the reactor too.

[CAB]

It seems to me we are talking about different things. The fact, in itself, that the ring has a major influence over the bodily existence of Sauron and his creations still doesn't tell us much about the ring's "martial" power; critical does not imply powerful. To make an analogy, the computer that controls a nuclear reactor doesn't have much power in itself, though its dissappearance would destroy the reactor too.
I agree with this. These are two different qualities. They could be related, but they don’t have to be.

The point is here, no one doubts as and when gandlaf finally masters the ring and focuses his will into getting the full power and command fromj himself and the ring, that he would defeat Sauron with all his rings, and armies and fortresses / allies etc ...
I wouldn’t have doubted it, until a little while back when I saw the letter Landroval was speaking of. So far as I know, there isn’t anything that contradicts the idea that Gandalf with the Ring couldn’t defeat Sauron, so I think we must except it.

Actually, I DO disagree with this. I don't think this is actually relevant here: I see it not as a simple mathematical sum,

Gandalf's power plus the One Ring's power versus Sauron's power
I know that what you meant by this depends on the idea that Gandalf with possession and full control of the Ring would be stronger than Sauron, but I think it is true in another way. Probably no one but Sauron could fully utilize the powers of the Ring. So the Ring could be stronger yet still: Gandalf + Ring < Sauron.

The Ring vs. Sauron is an interesting question, but we really don’t have a lot of useful evidence. So, I can only think of two ways to answer. 1. The Ring’s practical strength in a confrontation with Sauron was less than Sauron’s (due to the reasoning that Landroval gave). 2. The Ring’s absolute strength was greater than Sauron’s (which would depend entirely on the quote I was speaking of before). Butterbeer, you seem to remember this quote also. Do you know where it is? I looked around a little but couldn’t find it. I saw “great part” in a couple of places, but not “greater part”.

[Gordis]

I saw “great part” in a couple of places, but not “greater part”.
I do remember "great" but not "greater"

The nazgul stand or fall by Sauron; if the ring perishes, so will they. I don't think they are suicidal, though work-related stress might leave its marks
The Nazgul stand or fall by Sauron, because at the end of the TA he has their 9 Rings.
When he was disembodied at the end of the 2 age, the nazgul were NOT disembodied as well - they simply went East.
As I already pointed out not even Elrord was sure that the power of the 19 rings would vanish with the One gone. There was a possibility that the other Rings would become free. Perhaps nazgul hoped to become free as well, when the One was destroyed. All they had to do was to dig their rings out of the rubbish of Barad-Dur.

CAB, great new nazgul conspiracy idea. Indeed, the orcs who started the fight were those of Minas Morgul. Nazgul were able to drive orcs forward in battle madness staying themselves behind the lines - it is canon.

So why not suppose that one nazgul was hovering over all the time, making the orcs attack each other? ;) . The sly fox appeared only when all was over and the hobbits out of the fortress. :evil:

[Landroval]

As I already pointed out not even Elrord was sure that the power of the 19 rings would vanish with the One gone.
This bit of information:
But secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last
was probably not wholly hidden from the chief loremaster of Middle-Earth:
But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.
The Nazgul stand or fall by Sauron, because at the end of the TA he has their 9 Rings.
When he was disembodied at the end of the 2 age, the nazgul were NOT disembodied as well - they simply went East.
I don't see where you actually contradict me. Here is the quote I was reffering to:
The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him

[Gordis]

This bit of information:
But secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last
is from the "Of the rings of power and the third age", that was written after the War of the Ring. The narrator is so sure on this point, because he has access to the experimental :D data on the effects of the Ring-destruction. The text was stylised (deliberately) to represent a mannish chronicle of the 4th Age. You will see that some info in the same text is deliberately inaccurate (like telling it was Frodo, not Gollum, who threw the Ring into the fire) No way it can be the source of information on what the Ringbearers believed BEFORE the Ring was destroyed.

The other quote, from the LOTR, Counsil of Elrond, is the only source of information concerning the ringbearers' beliefs and doubts in the Third Age. Only, Landroval, you have cut a half of it, leaving only the part that suited you better. :(
Here Elrond's words are in full:
`But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed as you counsel?' asked Glóin.
'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly. `Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.'
It is crystal clear, that even "the chief loremaster of Middle-Earth :rolleyes: " does not have a definite answer. He believes that the Three would fail, but some others of the Wise, believe just the contrary. And really how could ANYONE be certain before the actual experiment?

I don't see where you actually contradict me.
Why should I always contradict you? ;) In this case, I only elaborated...

[Landroval]

He believes that the Three would fail, but some others of the Wise, believe just the contrary.
Others of the _Wise_? I doubt that. If anything, we know what Galadriel herself thought on the matter:
Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten
That makes two of them ;).

[Gordis]

Others of the _Wise_? I doubt that. If anything, we know what Galadriel herself thought on the matter:

That makes two of them ;).
Yes. Two out of how many? As "the Wise" were not only the Keepers of the Three - the Wise were the same as the members of the White Counsil, those who discussed the Ring and the Rings, who knew of them, and who kept them.
There was an excellent thread somewhere here about the number and personalities of the White Council. When I find it, I shall post the link.

[Landroval]

Two out of how many?
I don't know how many; according to Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion:
...and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunir. And Curunir (that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old.
However, we should note who made those opinions: Elrond the greatest of loremasters (cf The council of Elrond) and Galadriel, who was "wise beyond the measure of the Elves of Middle-earth, and of all who have not passed beyond the Seas" (cf Galadriel, HoME VII; also mentioned as a match of the noldor loremasters of Valinor). Moreover, Galadriel states (Mirror of Galadriel) that "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves". She definitely was not out of the loop ;).

Of the others who thought differently, we don't even know if their opinion was any worth.

[CAB]

It is crystal clear, that even "the chief loremaster of Middle-Earth :rolleyes: " does not have a definite answer. He believes that the Three would fail, but some others of the Wise, believe just the contrary. And really how could ANYONE be certain before the actual experiment?
Gordis, I am going to agree and disagree with you (once again :) ).



'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly.
So..., it doesn’t seem that Elrond knew for certain. Kind of hard to argue with that. :rolleyes:



But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.'

I think that “maybe” and “belief” definitely indicate that Elrond was giving his opinion. It might have been an opinion that he was almost certain of, but it was still just an opinion.


Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought.

He believes that the Three would fail, but some others of the Wise, believe just the contrary.
I don’t see how “some” necessarily means other members of the Wise. Also, it doesn’t say that they “believed” that the three rings would become free, but that they “hoped” so. They might have believed just the opposite.

Sorry, just nitpicking, I know.

[Gordis]

Here is the thread I was looking for:
http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=285&highlight=White

I don't know how many; according to Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion:

However, we should note who made those opinions: Elrond the greatest of loremasters (cf The council of Elrond) and Galadriel, who was "wise beyond the measure of the Elves of Middle-earth, and of all who have not passed beyond the Seas" (cf Galadriel, HoME VII; also mentioned as a match of the noldor loremasters of Valinor). Moreover, Galadriel states (Mirror of Galadriel) that "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves". She definitely was not out of the loop ;).

Of the others who thought differently, we don't even know if their opinion was any worth.

The GREAT EXPERIMENT proved them wrong, of course.

But still among the Wise, there were some who believed otherwise. And their opinion was not entirely discarded by Elrond: he DID mention it as a possibility.

What about Saruman, the chief Ring-expert? We don't know.

Galadriel, of course, was the one who knew more about the Rings than any other living creature, save Sauron himself. Wasn't she Celebrimbor's friend and maybe even sweetheart? :eek: Well, I am not going to defent the "sweetheart part", but still she was the only one who discussed Rings with Celebrimbor himself.

Nazgul had no such inside information. All they knew about the rings was either from bitter personal experience, or told by Sauron, the Father of lies. They could have the same hopes as some of the Wise had.

[Gordis]

I don’t see how “some” necessarily means other members of the Wise. Also, it doesn’t say that they “believed” that the three rings would become free, but that they “hoped” so. They might have believed just the opposite.
.
Strictly speaking, you are right. But really, who "some" might have been? It is clear that "some" were of those with whom Elrond discussed Rings. The Rings were not a matter of common knowledge. Most probably "some" were either his counsellors (like Erestor or Glorfindel) or the White Counsil. Most probably, Erestor and Glorfy were on the White counsil as well. We know the White Council DID discuss Rings. Saruman told of the stones in the Rings and no stone in One, they discussed where the Ring might have been and so on. I think the question "what will happen if the One is destroyed?" was discussed there as well.

As for belief and hope... nazgul might have hoped, couldn't they? If their hope proved true, they would be happy and free and no Sauron, and no new Ringlord. Bliss. If not, they only risked dying and going to Mandos and beyond as (without the Rings) they would have done long ago.

[Landroval]

The Rings were not a matter of common knowledge.
I would say that at least for the elves, the location of two of the rings was a matter of common sense (if not more):
Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time. Therefore ere the Third Age was ended the Elves perceived that the Ring of Sapphire was with Elrond ... whereas the Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lorien where dwelt the Lady Galadriel... But the Red Ring remained hidden until the end, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan knew to whom it had been committed.

[Gordis]

I would say that at least for the elves, the location of two of the rings was a matter of common sense (if not more):
I agree that in Imladris and Lorien everyone knew about the Rings protecting them. Still I don't see Elrond discussing the effects of Ring destruction with his Elven kitchen maid. :D And, if he did, why would he even mention her opinion at the Counsil?
It looks like "some" were people of some importance.

[Landroval]

Still I don't see Elrond discussing the effects of Ring destruction with his Elven kitchen maid. :D And, if he did, why would he even mention her opinion at the Counsil?
Strawman :p
We do not know if those who hoped that the rings would be destroyed are cooks or White Council members (they could be both). We only know of two named informed opinions, and they say otherwise...

[Earniel]

Is it ironic that the Ring itself aided Sam by making him seem more powerful than he was, to the Orcs?
The Ring's powers seem often to delay his return to Sauron's hand instead of hastening it. It was the Ring's attraction also that made Gollum turn his back on the world and hide in a deep and dark cave where nobody else was likely to come by it. It seems to be able to so short bursts of mind-domination, but is often set back by it's own power of attraction. It could get the orcs to attack Isildur, but led to being lost in the Gladden Fields. It managed to incite Deagol to find it in the river (possibly even influenced the fish to get him in the water?) but only managed to wind up in a deep cave. It succeeded in getting Bilbo to notice it on the floor, but ended up with a rather resiliant carrier.

Although I reckon that making Sam look like a warrior was a bit of a side effect. Sauron would have used the Ring to keep control of his orcs, so I'm thinking the Ring had a natural effect of impressing orcs, making the bearer look commandeering. And the Ring also seems to have the strongest force of mind-domination when it's worn or held thightly, like Sam was doing.

How much of Sam's deeds can be attributed to his credit, and how much to pure chance?
I think Sam still deserves a good deal of credit for what he did. Granted, the orcs had made it easier for him, but he still went inside a tower full of orcs all by himself. That takes some bravery. Only inside did he see there was barely anyone left. Still, I dare say there have to have been more orcs right up the moment Sam entered the tower. Below they might all have been dead for a few minutes, but higher up (where it took Sam longer to get) there must still have been orcs fighting when Sam passed the guards. Who else shot the two orcs Sam saw running out of the entrance? And those archers would have to be killed shortly after that.

How does the description of orcs in this chapter tally with your previous impressions of them? Does it reinforce the idea that 'orcs deserve no pity'... or does it make you feel sorry for them?
They definitely don't get great press, that's for sure. They're vicious, ugly, back-stabbing and have quite a few other nasty habits. And yet, I have to admit, they engender some amusement. The way they act makes you think of them as charicatures instead of normal characters, mirrors of the bad sides of humanity. It made me think that by fighting orcs, you're esentially fighting a not-so-glorious side of yourself. Even the noble and good Elves have bad sides, shown in the Silmarillion. So the orcs must have some good sides of their own, yet it is never shown.

At one point, it is said: "He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows" Sam takes the first choice, and resists its power. Is this Tolkien's way of showing the choice that Frodo had to face, then and later in Mount Doom? Sam's choice is influenced partly by love of his master, and partly by his unconquered hobbit-sense. Do you think that it was harder for Frodo to resist, as he was less like a hobbit, and more Elvish? (He is called Elf-friend many times in the story)
I think Sam was in a way lucky that he didn't have to wear the Ring for so long. Up until now Frodo had been carrying the Ring for weeks and even months on end, and that must have had a great deal of effect. Frodo is weary and worn which can't have been caused merely by Shelob's bite or the brief and nightmarish stay at Cirith Ungol, it must have been the effect of the Ring, grinding down his defenses. If Sam had been the one to carry the Ring alone from Cirith Ungol too, he would have experienced the worsening effect too. His condition on arriving at Mount Doom would not have been much better than Frodo's, I think.

So I don't think their personalities were as much at play here as the lenght of time carrying the Ring.

Seems to me, much of Sam's luck has to be attributed to the Ring. His miraculous passing of ever vigil Watchers, unexpected instigation of bloody fight between the best corps of Mordor, and subsequent travelling with orcs troops , completely unrecognizable, could be related to the power which chanelled his thoughts as a will in some way to dominate others, thus to overcome obstacles, and arranged it accordingly. The power of the One.
I'm not sure that much can be attributed to the Ring. Sam passed the Watchers with help from Galadriel's phial. And the orcs fought among themselves not for the Ring, but over Frodo's mithril mail, which would have been worth much even to orcs.