How did Denethor know about Aragorn?

[The Gaffer]

In ROTK Denethor refers to Gandalf using him, and Gondor, as a shield against Mordor whilst with the other hand bringing up a "ranger to supplant me".

How did he know this?

We know from ROTK that Denethor could only see in the Palantir what Sauron permitted him to see.

Did, then, Sauron reveal this to Denethor only after Aragorn had revealed himself to Sauron? Or was there some other means by which he knew?

[Valandil]

I guess Denethor pieced it together.

I wonder if the statement about Sauron only allowing Denethor to see what he wanted him to see should have been further qualified in some way? Like perhaps, that pertained to the devices of Sauron that Denethor might try to examine. For instance, if Denethor was looking toward Mordor, Sauron might just "slightly divert" his gaze, to show him what he wanted him to see. But maybe it would have been harder for Sauron to completely control what he saw - especially if he was looking in a totally different direction??? :confused: (all conjecture on my part - but do you think maybe plausible?)

Even then, I doubt he would have been able to closely watch Aragorn through the Palantir. It would be like constantly trying to find a needle in a haystack. It would be one thing if Aragorn was constantly out in the open, leading large armies of men into battle - that would be pretty noticeable. But the lifestyle of a solitary Ranger would be harder to seek out, perhaps.

Here's a theory: Denethor begins to suspect something of Aragorn's true heritage while Aragorn serves his father Ecthelion in the guise of Thorongil. Once he becomes Steward and begins using the Stone, haunted by those memories and what they might one day reveal, he searches. And - if he doesn't see a whole lot of Aragorn, then by frequent observation is at least able to discover the remnants of the Northern Dunedain. He sees also that Mithrandir goes all about Eriador. He puts it all together and comes up with his theory.

It's also possible that the House of Stewards knew (or guessed?) somewhat of the Rangers of the North - even if they kept that knowledge to themselves. (In fact, I have some fanfic outlined ... but I'll save that for another day :) )

[The Gaffer]

Definitely plausible. Indeed, it would seem unlikely that the Stewards knew nothing of the Northern line, given that (Arvedui?) they had tried to claim the throne in the past and been knocked back, and that there was documentary evidence sitting in Minas Tirith.

Clearly, the Stewards were none too keen to reinstate the monarchy given that they could surely have found the surviving heir had they wanted to.

However, in Denethor's questioning of Pippin, and Gandalf's debrief, we get a pretty explicit indication that Denethor didn't at that time know of Aragorn's particular existence. He might suspect it (he wonders why Boromir did not lead the company), but doesn't know it.

Sauron also did not know of Aragorn's existence and lineage prior to Aragorn revealing himself (oo-er). This is pretty clearly stated in TTT, IIRC. Did Sauron then tell Denethor specifically about "this ranger of the North" who would supplant him?

I wonder if this is what unhinged his mind (a lose-lose situation)?

Not sure if Denethor ever made the connection to Thorongil however.

[durinsbane2244]

i'd be willing to bet that after aragorn revealed himself to sauron, sauron let denethor see it so that he wouldn't trust ol' mithrandir...

[Gordis]

However, in Denethor's questioning of Pippin, and Gandalf's debrief, we get a pretty explicit indication that Denethor didn't at that time know of Aragorn's particular existence. He might suspect it (he wonders why Boromir did not lead the company), but doesn't know it.

Denethor questioned Pippin before Faramir returned from Ithilien. I have no doubt Faramir told his father what Frodo and Sam had told him about Aragorn, the wannabe King, who led the Fellowship after Rauros. He told about Boromir and the Ring as well.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Denethor would have some information over the years about what was going on in the north among the Dunedain there.
He met Aragorn (AKA Thorongil) when Thorongil was performing errantry in Gondor under Ecthelion II, D's father, and may have become suspicious of his identity and lineage at that early time. It is sugested in Appedix A that D was jealous of Thorongil (A) even at that time.

[Spock]

In ROTK Denethor refers to Gandalf using him, and Gondor, as a shield against Mordor whilst with the other hand bringing up a "ranger to supplant me".

How did he know this?

We know from ROTK that Denethor could only see in the Palantir what Sauron permitted him to see.


IMO, all of the above replies, plus the Stewards had learned how to use the "P" and could see glimses of the truth. I don't believe they only saw what "S" wanted them to see.

[CAB]

I would agree with Spock that all the above posts help explain Denethor’s knowledge.

Also I think he and Valandil are right that Sauron couldn’t choose everything Denethor would see through the Palantir. In addition to the problem of the direction in which Denethor looked, there is the fact that Sauron couldn’t constantly monitor the Stone (this is stated in The Palantiri in Unfinished Tales). So Denethor should have had opportunities to use the Palantir without Sauron’s involvment.

What is new to me is the idea that Sauron showed Aragorn to Denethor. This makes sense. Sauron’s primary purpose for the Palantir with Denethor wasn’t to keep information from him, but was rather to cause him to lose hope. The one thing that Sauron probably understood best about Denethor was his desire to maintain his power. Showing Aragorn with his banner and sword, essentially claiming the Kingship, would introduce to Denethor the thought of the lose-lose situation that The Gaffer mentioned. Sauron would basically be using the Stone on Denethor the same way as he always had. Very nice suggestion Gaffer.

[Valandil]

:
:
What is new to me is the idea that Sauron showed Aragorn to Denethor. This makes sense. Sauron’s primary purpose for the Palantir with Denethor wasn’t to keep information from him, but was rather to cause him to lose hope. The one thing that Sauron probably understood best about Denethor was his desire to maintain his power. Showing Aragorn with his banner and sword, essentially claiming the Kingship, would introduce to Denethor the thought of the lose-lose situation that The Gaffer mentioned. Sauron would basically be using the Stone on Denethor the same way as he always had. Very nice suggestion Gaffer.

Yes - a VERY good & interesting theory, Gaffer. One I doubt I would have ever come up with.

[The Gaffer]

Thanks.

I'd forgotten that Denethor had spoken to Faramir, to whom Frodo had talked about Aragorn and his lineage.

Two things then: Frodo had also told him about Gandalf's death, yet Denethor did not seem surprised. Gandalf did not have the Ranger upstart with him, yet Denethor somehow knew that he was being brought along somehow by Gandalf.

If we assume that Denethor could use the Palantir to look elsewhere, what exactly DID he know? He didn't seem aware of Rohan's imminent arrival, nor of the armies of the Ents raging about the place. Given that, could he be expected to know about Aragorn via the Palantir?

[Olmer]

1.We know from ROTK that Denethor could only see in the Palantir what Sauron permitted him to see.
2.Given that, could he be expected to know about Aragorn via the Palantir?
1.Palantirs don't lie. So you can see only the real situations of what you want to seein any place, not just some selected scenes.
2.Certainly. I'll give an exerpt from another thread, where we at length discussed Denethor's actions and motives. I would suggest to read Gordis postings - some interesting observations (as usual ;) )
The Pire of Denethor (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=13012#usercptools)

This is mine.Of course, spending every evening gaizing into Palantir, Denethor knew who is arriving on the ships of Umbar. After all on these ships was the best source of communication - Orthanc’s palantir. Since Aragorn was surprisingly well updated about the current state of Minas Tirith , I think that he looked into it not once. The last time it was when “the fleet set forth� up Anduin, and when he urgently said, that “to the Harlond we must come tomorrow or fail utterly.�
So, Denethor knew that Aragorn’s coming was invetable and such opposition, as he, wouldn’t be spared by the new ruler. Most probably he and others, who will support him, would be quietly eliminated, or sent as far away from the capital, as it possible, “rehabilitating the lost territory� (Letter #244)on the borders of ever hostile Harad in the “main eastward outposts� of the Ithilien, as it happened even with so loyal Faramir. Shortly, to stay in the places with a highest probability to get killed.
As about suspecting who Aragorn really is, we also talk in this thread, and seems that such picture came out:
Possible, that Thorongil in some subtle way revealed his ancestry to Ecthelion, but Ecthelion in the same subtle way let him know that you need to have more substantial proves for claiming the throne of Gondor ,and not just a hearsay and some dubious shards of so called legendary sword.
I think, that Denethor also have been told by his father who Aragorn really is . By that time Aragorn's popularity was very highone notch lower than Ectelion and he was expected by men to return to Minas-Tirith, where great honour awaited him, but since Ecthelion has been already quite old, and the ruling expected to be continued by his very brave and valiant son, Aragorn did not risk to proclame openly, causing of uprising, instead he decided to return back North whence he came from, promising upon his departure: "I come again to Gondor" ("And this time I'll be prepared!")
"To all men it seemed a loss, unless it were to Denethor" So , Denethor knew, that he will be the last steward of Gondor. It was just the matter of time.

[The Gaffer]

Thanks for that, don't know how I missed that discussion chapter going up!

So, Denether suspected who Thorongil was, and was probably right to be suspicious of Gandalf. But I don't think we have a clear indication of when he made the connection with Aragorn.

Also, it's certain that he didn't have all that much control over what he saw with the palantir because:
- he didn't know who was controlling the Black Fleet.
- he knew very little about what was happening with the Ring/Fellowship/Boromir etc

[Landroval]

1.Palantirs don't lie. So you can see only the real situations of what you want to seein any place, not just some selected scenes.
...
Of course, spending every evening gaizing into Palantir, Denethor knew who is arriving on the ships of Umbar.
I disagree with both your points (from the Pyre of Denethor chapter):
He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see
...
All the East is moving. And even now the wind of thy hope cheats thee and wafts up Anduin a fleet with black sails. The West has failed. It is time for all to depart who would not be slaves

[Gordis]

So, Denether suspected who Thorongil was, and was probably right to be suspicious of Gandalf. But I don't think we have a clear indication of when he made the connection with Aragorn.
The LATEST time when he could make this connection was the time of Faramir's report. Denethor learned that Gandalf led the Fellowship from Rivendell to Moria and that Aragorn, the heir of Isildur etc. led the company further, including the moment when Boromir perished. So the connection of Gandalf with Aragorn became obvious.
But I believe, Denethor might have made the connection long before that. Perhaps Gandalf, when teaching young Faramir had made some hints about the Return of the King... Perhaps Denethor understood the meaning of the prophetic dream Faramir and Boromir had:
Seek for the Sword that was broken:
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token
That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken,
And the Halfling forth shall stand

Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters. Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself.
The fact that Denethor only saw fit to tell his sons where Imladris was, doesn't mean it was all he himself understood.
I believe Denethor knew outright WHAT sword was broken, and that that sword was a heirloom of the Northern line. I think, Denethor fully expected to find Elendil's sword and probably Thorongil as well in Imladris, even if he didn't understand what Isildur's Bane was - which I also doubt.
I think he understood all the plot immediately, save the part about "the halfling" and the fate that the Wise reserved for the Ring -what rational man could expect such a folly? Therefore he sent his most trustworthy son, Captain of the White Tower, to Imladris to investigate, not the younger one, brainwashed by Gandalf. :)

Also, it's certain that he didn't have all that much control over what he saw with the palantir because:
- he didn't know who was controlling the Black Fleet.
- he knew very little about what was happening with the Ring/Fellowship/Boromir etc

I want to comment on the last point. Both Sauron and Denethor had in their possession two lesser Palantiri, with the effective range equal to the distance from Minas Tirith to Orthanc (UT, the Palantiri). So, neither Sauron, nor Denethor could see the Fellowship before they reached Rauros - it was simply too far. Only larger Stones (from Amon Sul and Osgiliath) could see further than that.

As for the Black Fleet, probably Denethor saw it approaching and was so upset and dismayed that he didn't look closer - for that one had to concentrate, willing the stone to show the details. Same applies to Sauron, who was simply too intent on Minas Tirith, to spare time studying pirate faces :D . And Aragorn's banner was unfurled when the fleet approached the City, not before.

By the way, in HOME VIII "the War of the Ring", in the earlier outline, Denethor did know that it was Aragorn who was coming on the black ships. In this draft Denethor's words "And even now the wind of thy hope cheats thee and wafts up Anduin a fleet with black sails" were missing. In the draft Denethor accusedGandalf in Rath Dinen: "but I know your mind and its plots. Do I not see the fleets now coming up Anduin! So with the left hand you would use me as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to take my place". Here it is obvious that he does know who is aboard (with his left hand, one might suppose, Denethor gestures towards Osgiliath and with his right towards Pelargir); and he knew it from use of the Palantir, as is expressly stated in the outline C "Denethor has a palantir! He has seen the coming of Aragorn"

In the final version of ROTK still some remnant of the original version persists (left hand&right hand), but here Denethor claims to have learned all from Pippin: I have read thy mind and its policies. Do I not know that you commanded this halfling here to keep silence? That you brought him hither to be a spy within my very chamber? And yet in our speech together I have learned the names and purpose of all thy companions. So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.

Also the existence of the earlier conception explains Pippin's words to Aragorn in LOTR " Do you know, I guessed it was you in the black ships". As it stands now, it is but a curious presentiment, but before it was the result of his overhearing Denethor's words to Gandalf: "There, Berithil, you see Denethor was right after all!"

[CAB]

To me it seems clear that Denethor knew who Thorongil was. I also think that Gordis is correct that Denethor probably understood enough of the prophetic dream to know that Thorongil was now returning. Gandalf at least seems to think that Denethor has this knowledge.

‘Why not? What is wrong with Strider?’ Pippin whispered. ‘He meant to come here, didn’t he? And he’ll be arriving soon himself, anyway.’
‘Maybe, maybe,’ said Gandalf. ‘Though if he comes, it is likely to be in some way that no one expects, not even Denethor. It will be better so. At least he should come unheralded by us.’ -Minas Tirith, The Return of the King

I would guess that Olmer is right that Ecthelion also knew that Thorongil was the rightful heir. Bloodlines are very important in Tolkien’s world. How would Thorongil be able to gain rank and influence the Steward without revealing (probably to him alone) his lineage. Maybe part of the reason that Ecthelion loved Thorongil was that he agreed to allow the Steward’s son to rule for a time before taking up his kingship. With his popularity high, Ecthelion’s health fading, and Mordor’s shadow lengthening, Aragorn probably could have successfully claimed the throne then.

Just a thought, maybe Gandalf sent the prophetic dream to Faramir and eventually Boromir. If Faramir, who was the main receiver of the dreams, journeyed to Minas Tirith with Aragorn, he would have been more easily convinced that Aragorn was the rightful king and he could have been a strong “herald� for him. Denethor may have perceived this chance and so sent Boromir instead.

Gandalf has been known to put visions in peoples’ minds before.

But of Olorin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. - Valaquenta, The Silmarillion

[Gordis]

Just a thought, maybe Gandalf sent the prophetic dream to Faramir and eventually Boromir. If Faramir, who was the main receiver of the dreams, journeyed to Minas Tirith with Aragorn, he would have been more easily convinced that Aragorn was the rightful king and he could have been a strong “herald� for him. Denethor may have perceived this chance and so sent Boromir instead.
Gandalf has been known to put visions in peoples’ minds before.
It is a great idea, CAB.
I am sure the dream was sent MOSTLY to Faramir (many times) and to Boromir only once, because, according to the PLAN, it had to be Faramir in the Fellowship . Denethor tried to twart this Plan, but Fate is Fate. :rolleyes:

Only problem I see is that when the Dream came to the "boys", and it was just before the assault on Osgiliath - in June 3018, Gandalf was far away in the Shire.

[CAB]

It is a great idea, CAB.
I am sure the dream was sent MOSTLY to Faramir (many times) and to Boromir only once, because, according to the PLAN, it had to be Faramir in the Fellowship . Denethor tried to twart this Plan, but Fate is Fate. :rolleyes:

Only problem I see is that when the Dream came to the "boys", and it was just before the assault on Osgiliath - in June 3018, Gandalf was far away in the Shire.
Thank you Gordis. Yes, distance could be an issue. There is certainly nothing in the passage from the Valaquenta to suggest that Gandalf could do this from a great distance, but, then again, there isn’t anything to suggest he couldn’t either. Also, remember how he “spoke� to Frodo while Frodo was on Amon Hen. (I like how he calls Frodo a “fool� in this scene, very Gandalf-ish.)

The reason I thought about this possibility is that it would appear that the dream was sent by somebody. Who else would have the motivation and ability to do this? I suppose that one of the Valar or even Eru could have done it, but I am not sure why they would. Boromir’s (or Faramir’s) presence doesn’t seem to have been absolutely needed in the Fellowship (unless Boromir scaring Frodo was really that important.)

Why did Gondor need to seek the “sword that was broken�? Aragorn likely was going to come to Minas Tirith anyway. One answer is that he needed someone to pave the way, especially when you consider that the well trained (by Gandalf) and non-heir Faramir was the main target of the dreams.

Why would Gandalf be so concerned about Aragorn gaining his kingship?

‘The Third Age was my age. I was the enemy of Sauron; and my work is finished. I shall go soon. The burden must lie now upon you and your kindred.’ -Gandalf to Aragorn The Return of the King

I am still not convinced about this idea myself, but I think it is worth considering.

[Olmer]

There is certainly nothing in the passage from the Valaquenta to suggest that Gandalf could do this from a great distance, but, then again, there isn’t anything to suggest he couldn’t either. Also, remember how he “spoke� to Frodo while Frodo was on Amon Hen. (I like how he calls Frodo a “fool� in this scene, very Gandalf-ish.)
Very fresh idea, CAB! I was more leaning on possibility, that Sauron somehow influenced the information about upcoming meeting in Rivendale to provoke a squabble over the Ring between elves, men & dwarves:too coincidental their appearance at the same time. But, reading your thoughts about it, I have to admit that this is more elegant explanation.
Yes, I agree with Gordis, Denethor deciphered the dream, but I think, he understood instantly what is "Isildur's bane" , for he did not strike me as a person who would be completely ignorant about the history of the founders of the city and country.
He is more than sure that on the meeting in Imladris will be discussed matters of topmost importance for the welfare of Gondor. Because only EXTREMELY IMPORTANT and CONFIDENTIAL mission could tear the Captain of the White Tower and commander of the army away from the warfare's theatre. If Denethor really needed to CONSULT and INTERPRETE a DREAM, he would send Faramir. Considering circumstances of Faramir's upbringing and his susceptibility to external influence, his choice was wise, because Boromir would never be talked into submission, he would remember desperate Gondor's need, and in this mission he had the most probable chances to succeed “He would have remembered his father need…He would have brought me a mighty gift� (Denethor, quote from the“LOTR�, book III, chapter 4 )

[Landroval]

Gandalf has been known to put visions in peoples’ minds before.
We must keep in mind that there can be no forceful transmission of thought - all the parties involved in the communication must be willing and opened for it to happen. What I would say is that Gandalf's presence 'elevated' the elves (due to its divine nature), it somehow compensated for the marring affecting their spirits, allowing their superior nature to manifest itself.
because Boromir would never be talked into submission
He fell to the power of the ring, worse than anyone else in the fellowship
he would remember desperate Gondor's need
Of the Numenoreans, not even Isildur could have wield the ring; of all the beings in M.E., only Gandalf can be suspected of having such a power over the ring. The ring being brought to Gondor would have helped no one, it would have corrupted the city even worse.
in this mission he had the most probable chances to succeed
Boromir is the only one in the fellowship who doesn't make it alive; his attitude and deed are most reprobable of them all. He was the weak link :p

[Earniel]

I don't think Denethor knew truly what was going to be discussed in Rivendell. He may have guessed what the poem was about, the return of an heir to the Gondorean throne. But I doubt he could have known that that same heir was also present there and that the Ring was also the topic.

But I also think that regardless of that, the choice about which son went wasn't his. Boromir had set his sights on this mission and would not be pursuaded. And Denethor did let him go because he loved Boromir much and didn't want to put anything in his way.

[CAB]

Yes, I agree with Gordis, Denethor deciphered the dream, but I think, he understood instantly what is "Isildur's bane" , for he did not strike me as a person who would be completely ignorant about the history of the founders of the city and country.
He is more than sure that on the meeting in Imladris will be discussed matters of topmost importance for the welfare of Gondor. Because only EXTREMELY IMPORTANT and CONFIDENTIAL mission could tear the Captain of the White Tower and commander of the army away from the warfare's theatre. If Denethor really needed to CONSULT and INTERPRETE a DREAM, he would send Faramir.
I believe Olmer may be correct. When talking with Frodo, Faramir revealed that he already believed that Isildur had taken “somewhat from the hand of the Unnamed...some heirloom of power...a fell weapon perchance, devised by the Dark Lord�. What items fit this description? I can only think of one. Also notice how Faramir said the “hand of the Unnamed�. Now this may mean nothing or it may mean that Faramir guessed this item to be the One Ring. If Denethor had also come to this conclusion, he may have made the connection to “Isildur’s Bane�, a connection Faramir later made himself.

As Olmer says, Gondor’s primary captain and heir to the Stewardship wouldn’t be sent on this errand unless it was extremely important that he go. Open war with Mordor was imminent.

Earniel may be right that Boromir simply took the errand upon himself. This is the straightforward explanation from the text, and so, may be the best one. But why would Boromir be so interested in a riddling dream, which, so far as he knows, says nothing about defeating Sauron in the war which is so close at hand, interested enough to travel hundreds of miles in search of the answer, while leaving his army without his leadership? I think is possible that Denethor may have influenced Boromir here with a few well chosen words, without Boromir realizing it. Denethor was much greater than Boromir mentally. I am not sure why Denethor couldn’t have simply told Boromir what he believed the dream meant though.

We must keep in mind that there can be no forceful transmission of thought - all the parties involved in the communication must be willing and opened for it to happen.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting (I know I’m not) that Gandalf forced the trip from Minas Tirith to Rivendell. He may have sent the dream/thought as influence (just as he influenced, not forced, Frodo on Amon Hen) to convince one of Denethor’s sons to go. Anyway, if he had forced the action, it would have been Faramir that went, not Boromir. If you are saying that communication itself can’t be forced, you may be right. I don’t think that the brothers would have been shielding their minds from Gandalf though. Frodo certainly wasn’t.

Of the Numenoreans, not even Isildur could have wield the ring; of all the beings in M.E., only Gandalf can be suspected of having such a power over the ring. The ring being brought to Gondor would have helped no one, it would have corrupted the city even worse.
This may be true. But the important question here is did Denethor agree with you.

Boromir is the only one in the fellowship who doesn't make it alive; his attitude and deed are most reprobable of them all. He was the weak link :p
This may be true again. However we have to look at things from Denethor’s point of view. If his plan was to have the Ring brought to Minas Tirith, then Boromir was the right man for the job and Faramir probably wasn’t.

[Gordis]

Yes, distance could be an issue. There is certainly nothing in the passage from the Valaquenta to suggest that Gandalf could do this from a great distance, but, then again, there isn’t anything to suggest he couldn’t either. Also, remember how he “spoke� to Frodo while Frodo was on Amon Hen. As for Amon Hen, I always thought it was "Ring-Ring" thought communication: Narya calling the One, that Frodo had been wearing at the moment.

Actually, when one has a prophetic dream, the prime suspect would be a certain Maia Olorin, specialist in dreams.

Gandalf left Minas-Tirith sometime in the end of February- beginning of March, as on March 23 he was already in Mirkwood (UT, Hunt for the Ring). Could he "leave" a dream to be shown later, like a slow virus? ;) :eek:

Frodo saw in a dream, how Galdalf escaped from Orthanc - that might prove that dreams could be sent at a distance.

Here another dream Faramir had comes to my mind: a recurring dream of the Great Wave sweeping over Numenor.
‘Yes,’ said Faramir, ‘of the land of Westernesse that foundered and of the great dark wave climbing over the green lands and above the hills, and coming on, darkness unescapable. I often dream of it.’. This one, I think was one of Gandalf's brainwashing dreams. ;)

Evidently, Gandalf had chosen Faramir as a pupil long ago - perhaps he had a "feeling" that one day Faramir would have to make a Choice about the Ring. So he prepared the boy, ensuring that he becomes what was called "Faithful", and knew that disobedience to the Powers was perilous. I believe, Faramir was prepared much in the same way as Aragorn was. Gandalf evidently didn't tell him about the One, but it seems he must have told Faramir some nazgul stories, to make him wary of the Rings in general. Remember, Faramir had the "classified" :eek: info (missing even from the Chronicles and records of Gondor and Rivendell), that three of the Nine were Numenorean Lords. Gandalf must have told Faramir about them, making sure that Faramir wouldn't be tempted by a Ring - and he was right, only instead of the prepared Faramir, it was the totally unprepared Boromir who came to Rivendell. Poor innocent guy who never heard about Rings, about the nazgul, and couldn't even recognise the Morgul Lord when he saw him! :(

The reason I thought about this possibility is that it would appear that the dream was sent by somebody. Who else would have the motivation and ability to do this? I suppose that one of the Valar or even Eru could have done it, but I am not sure why they would.
I am not so sure that the Valar/Eru were as uninvolved in the Quest as they wanted to appear. Some Force made the Ring fall into the hands of a resistant hobbit (twice!). Then this Western Wind dispelling the Darkness of Mordor and driving Aragorn's fleet upriver... I doubt Gandalf had enough power to meddle with the weather in such a way. So, there is a possibility that the Dream was sent by the Higher-Ups. If Faramir came with the Fellowship, the Quest might have gone smoothly, Frodo, Gollum and the hobbits turning to Mordor, and Faramir coming to Minas Tirith with Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli. In the Divine Plan, Boromir, probably, was singled for early death anyway, as well as Denethor.

We must keep in mind that there can be no forceful transmission of thought - all the parties involved in the communication must be willing and opened for it to happen. What I would say is that Gandalf's presence 'elevated' the elves (due to its divine nature), it somehow compensated for the marring affecting their spirits, allowing their superior nature to manifest itself.
I am not sure where you see "forceful" transmission of thought? Sleeping Faramir was as open for dreams as the Elves mentioned in the Valaquenta were. And in what way is elven nature "superior" to human? :confused:

He fell to the power of the ring, worse than anyone else in the fellowship ... Boromir is the only one in the fellowship who doesn't make it alive; his attitude and deed are most reprobable of them all. He was the weak link . Because he needed the Ring's Power as desperately as Aragorn or Gandalf did, perhaps even more, but, unlike them, he was TOTALLY unprepared for this trial. Neither did he have hobbit resistance to Evil. Nobody bothered to explain to him WHY couldn't he wield the One against Sauron. The Wise at the Counsil were haughty and dismissed his suggestion from the start. Galadriel felt Boromir was on the threshold of breaking, but she didn't deign to talk to him, instead she tempted him, made him realise clearly what it was he wanted. (Ugh, the accursed White Witch! :mad: )

He may have guessed what the poem was about, the return of an heir to the Gondorean throne. But I doubt he could have known that that same heir was also present there and that the Ring was also the topic.

I think he understood "Isildur's Bane" all right. It was not THAT difficult.
Gandalf : "Still the Lord of Gondor learned more from you than you may have guessed, Pippin. You could not hide the fact that Boromir did not lead the Company from Moria, and that there was one among you of high honour who was coming to Minas Tirith; and that he had a famous sword. Men think much about the stories of old days in Gondor; and Denethor has given long thought to the rhyme and to the words Isildur’s Bane, since Boromir went away.

I am not sure why Denethor couldn’t have simply told Boromir what he believed the dream meant though.
That was his mistake. Or, perhaps, he understood what Isildur's Bane really was only after Boromir left (see the quote above) Or, he was afraid that the simple knowledge about the Ring could affect his son, making him desire the Ring for himself, to WIELD it, while Denethor expected him to simply bring the thing to his father. By the way, I trust Denethor when he said to Gandalf that his idea was to HIDE the Ring deep in the dungeons of M. Tirith, not to wield it:
The face of Denethor set hard and cold. ‘You found Boromir less apt to your hand, did you not?’ he said softly. ‘But I who was his father say that he would have brought it to me. You are wise, maybe, Mithrandir, yet with all your subtleties you have not all wisdom. Counsels may be found that are neither the webs of wizards nor the haste of fools. I have in this matter more lore and wisdom than you deem. ‘
‘What then is your wisdom?’ said Gandalf.
‘Enough to perceive that there are two follies to avoid. To use this thing is perilous. At this hour, to send it in the hands of a witless halfling into the land of the Enemy himself, as you have done, and this son of mine, that is madness.’
‘And the Lord Denethor what would he have done?’
‘Neither. But most surely not for any argument would he have set this thing at a hazard beyond all but a fool’s hope, risking our utter ruin, if the Enemy should recover what he lost. Nay, it should have been kept, hidden, hidden dark and deep. Not used, I say, unless at the uttermost end of need, but set beyond his grasp, save by a victory so final that what then befell would not trouble us, being dead.’
‘You think, as is your wont, my lord, of Gondor only,’ said Gandalf. ‘Yet there are other men and other lives, and time still to be. And for me, I pity even his slaves.’
‘And where will other men look for help, if Gondor falls?’ answered Denethor. ‘If I had this thing now in the deep vaults of this citadel, we should not then shake with dread under this gloom, fearing the worst, and our counsels would be undisturbed. If you do not trust me to endure the test, you do not know me yet.’

But I also think that regardless of that, the choice about which son went wasn't his. Boromir had set his sights on this mission and would not be pursuaded. And Denethor did let him go because he loved Boromir much and didn't want to put anything in his way.

Denethor was the Lord of Gondor. It was HIS final decision, whatever Boromir might have wished. Here I agree with CAB. Also look at this quote:
For a moment Faramir’s restraint gave way. ‘I would ask you, my father, to remember why it was that I, not he, was in Ithilien. On one occasion at least your counsel has prevailed, not long ago. It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him.’

[Earniel]

I think he understood "Isildur's Bane" all right. It was not THAT difficult.
To us who know the complete story after all story-strands have run their course, no. But if I'm not mistaken it was not common knowledge back then that Isildur had taken the Ring from Sauron and that the Ring specifically had been Isildur's down fall. Isildur's Bane could eventually be lots of things.

Denethor was the Lord of Gondor. It was HIS final decision, whatever Boromir might have wished. Here I agree with CAB. Also look at this quote:Indeed, but that doesn't mean he could not have granted Boromir his wish to go instead of Faramir merely out of love. There don't have to be ulterior motives.

[CAB]

As for Amon Hen, I always thought it was "Ring-Ring" thought communication: Narya calling the One, that Frodo had been wearing at the moment.
Good point. I hadn’t considered that possibility. I still think it is possible that Gandalf could project his thoughts unaided over a distance though. Aside from Frodo’s dream that you mentioned, there is also the urgent message that Frodo and Sam seemed to receive on the slopes of Orodruin. It really wasn’t important to the mission of destroying the Ring that they get up and go to the Cracks of Doom immediately, but it was important if Gandalf and Co.’s lives were to be saved. This means it is likely that he, rather than Eru or a Vala (who probably weren’t terribly concerned about the small details) sent this message.

Gandalf left Minas-Tirith sometime in the end of February- beginning of March, as on March 23 he was already in Mirkwood (UT, Hunt for the Ring). Could he "leave" a dream to be shown later, like a slow virus? ;) :eek:
Could be. I think it is more likely he sent it over a distance though.

Evidently, Gandalf had chosen Faramir as a pupil long ago - perhaps he had a "feeling" that one day Faramir would have to make a Choice about the Ring. So he prepared the boy, ensuring that he becomes what was called "Faithful", and knew that disobedience to the Powers was perilous. I believe, Faramir was prepared much in the same way as Aragorn was. Gandalf evidently didn't tell him about the One, but it seems he must have told Faramir some nazgul stories, to make him wary of the Rings in general. Remember, Faramir had the "classified" :eek: info (missing even from the Chronicles and records of Gondor and Rivendell), that three of the Nine were Numenorean Lords. Gandalf must have told Faramir about them, making sure that Faramir wouldn't be tempted by a Ring - and he was right, only instead of the prepared Faramir, it was the totally unprepared Boromir who came to Rivendell. Poor innocent guy who never heard about Rings, about the nazgul, and couldn't even recognise the Morgul Lord when he saw him! :(

Because he needed the Ring's Power as desperately as Aragorn or Gandalf did, perhaps even more, but, unlike them, he was TOTALLY unprepared for this trial. Neither did he have hobbit resistance to Evil. Nobody bothered to explain to him WHY couldn't he wield the One against Sauron. The Wise at the Counsil were haughty and dismissed his suggestion from the start. Galadriel felt Boromir was on the threshold of breaking, but she didn't deign to talk to him, instead she tempted him, made him realise clearly what it was he wanted. (Ugh, the accursed White Witch! :mad: )
You are changing the way I see things Gordis. I had always thought that it was entirely the differences in character and mental strength that separated Boromir and Faramir (and Aragorn). But I think you are right. Preparation and education had to play a major role. If one of these “great� people had taken the time to explain things to Boromir, he might have acted differently.

To us who know the complete story after all story-strands have run their course, no. But if I'm not mistaken it was not common knowledge back then that Isildur had taken the Ring from Sauron and that the Ring specifically had been Isildur's down fall. Isildur's Bane could eventually be lots of things.
It wasn’t common knowledge, but Denethor wasn’t a common man either. He was very well learned concerning Gondor’s history. Remember that Gandalf consulted him about events that took place during the War of the Last Alliance. It is even possible that Denethor knew exactly what Gandalf was asking about but decided to withhold the information. I don’t think we can assume that he knew what Isildur’s Bane was, but I do think we have to consider it a strong possibility.

Indeed, but that doesn't mean he could not have granted Boromir his wish to go instead of Faramir merely out of love. There don't have to be ulterior motives.
This could be, but considering Boromir’s position and the nearness of the upcoming war, and also Denethor’s personality, I think it is unlikely. Denethor’s love for Boromir could be a factor in another way. In Denethor’s mind it may have been necessary to bring the Ring to Minas Tirith and discourage Thorongil if Boromir was ever going to have a chance to rule Gondor.

[Gordis]

I still think it is possible that Gandalf could project his thoughts unaided over a distance though. Aside from Frodo’s dream that you mentioned, there is also the urgent message that Frodo and Sam seemed to receive on the slopes of Orodruin. It really wasn’t important to the mission of destroying the Ring that they get up and go to the Cracks of Doom immediately, but it was important if Gandalf and Co.’s lives were to be saved. This means it is likely that he, rather than Eru or a Vala (who probably weren’t terribly concerned about the small details) sent this message.
An EXCELLENT point, CAB. Moreover, this time it was not Ring-Ring thingy, as the message came to Sam, not to Frodo:
Suddenly a sense of urgency which he did not understand came to Sam. It was almost as if he had been called: ‘Now, now, or it will be too late!’
Yes, it must have been Gandalf all right, so now we know he could project thoughts at a distance. :cool:

[CAB]

An EXCELLENT point, CAB. Moreover, this time it was not Ring-Ring thingy, as the message came to Sam, not to Frodo
Thanks Gordis. I hate to quibble over the details, but they both received the message.

Frodo also seemed to have felt the call. He struggled to his knees.

[Gordis]

Thanks Gordis. I hate to quibble over the details, but they both received the message.
Indeed. :)
But it couldn't be via the Ring - otherwise the message would have come only to Frodo.

[Elfhelm]

Did, then, Sauron reveal this to Denethor only after Aragorn had revealed himself to Sauron?

Yep. That's my bet.

[Alcuin]

We are all forgetting that Pippin told Beregond that Aragorn was the only one of the Company who really knew Gandalf. When Beregond asked for more information, Pippin played it as, “He was a man who went about with us.” The next day, Denethor teased Pippin about the short rations in the City, and Pippin realized Beregond had reported everything he had said in their conversation. And after Denethor questioned Pippin at their first meeting, Gandalf pointed out that Pippin was unable to hide that someone with a famous sword was coming, and that Boromir was not the leader of the Company after Moria.

Denethor and Aragorn had known one another as young men when Aragorn served his father, Ecthelion II, under the name Thorongil. Appendix A suggests that Denethor had been able even then to determine who Aragorn was, and that he was jealous. (After all, Denethor could never be king himself, “just” steward.)

Denethor knew who was in Rohan by name and title by the time Pippin showed up to serve the next morning, when he teased him about the rations.

Sauron’s must be careful to hide from Denethor what he knows about Aragorn. For one thing, Sauron did not know his name. (Aragorn did not “speak” to him: he threatened him with Narsil-Andúril and then wrenched the palantÃ*r to his own use.) For another two, the Sword-that-was-Broken was in the dream-rhyme, and Sauron would want to conceal anything that might give Denethor hope; and the coming of the Heir of Isildur would have given Denethor hope were he not consumed with jealousy. I think Sauron showed him the fleet and the armies marshaled against Gondor, and Denethor feared that Sauron had read from his mind what he knew about Frodo’s quest and used it to regain the One Ring.

Since Sauron believed either Aragorn or Gandalf had the Ring, he knew that Denethor did not. So he must have been bluffing Denethor in order to weaken his will to fight before Aragorn could arrive.

Think about it: After their confrontation, Sauron knew Aragorn was in the Hornburg. He had to strike before the Heir of Isildur could reach Minas Tirith. All the more because he believed Aragorn had the Ruling Ring.

[CAB]

I agree and disagree with you here, Alcuin.

Of course you are right that Denethor was already aware of Aragorn (aka: Thorongil, the leader of Pippin and Boromir's company after Moria, Heir of Isildur). What was interesting about The Gaffer's suggestion wasn't the thought that Denethor may learned about Aragorn from Sauron. Rather, it was the idea that Sauron (who was almost surely unaware of Denethor's knowledge concerning Aragorn) may have intended to use this information to further weaken Denethor, and through him, Gondor.

"... let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts."

As I argued earlier in this thread, the one thing Sauron probably understood best about Denethor was his desire to retain his power. Aragorn's imminent return would not have given Denethor hope, it would have done just the opposite. And, to a degree, Sauron was correct in his thinking regarding Denethor.

"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."



Since Sauron believed either Aragorn or Gandalf had the Ring, he knew that Denethor did not. So he must have been bluffing Denethor in order to weaken his will to fight before Aragorn could arrive.

I don't think bluffing was necessary in this case. According to Sauron's way of thinking, Denethor, once made aware of Aragorn, should have lost his willingness to fight. He was in, as The Gaffer said earlier, a lose-lose situation.