What REALLY happens to Humans in Valinor?

[Gordis]

I decided to put it into a separate thread as it has little to do with the nazgul...
Reminds me of one of those interesting essays in the HoME books about what happened if humans got to Valinor ... basically they'd be begging for death after awhile, IIRC ...
by JRRT, Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed", "Aman and Mortal Men"
... or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hröa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy... I remember that bit because I thought it was kinda creepy - a human body running around without a soul ...

Thanks for the Quote, Rian. As I said, it seems to be in dire contradiction with Akkalabeth, where the messengers from Valinor claimed that: And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'
I always understood that in the Light of Aman the mortals would only DIE sooner. But, considering your quote, Rian, perhaps it meant that the Men in Aman would not die after all, that Valinor made bodies immortal, exactly like Sauron said? So they will not die, only grow weary and beg for death?

Then, why in Ungoliant did the Wise send Frodo, Bilbo and Sam to Valinor, if such a fate awaited them? I thought they were meant to spend the short remainder of their lives in peace and then die...

[littleadanel]

I thought they were meant to spend the short remainder of their lives in peace and then die...

I thought that too... I always imagined that Frodo, Sam, and Gimli, lived through what was left for them and then died in the bliss of those lands.

There is something I dont understand here, though. How can a hröa stay alive after the fëa leaves it? I thought that the departure of the fëa was the cause of death - the body wasn't able to go on living without it. I read through "Aman and Mortal Men", and found this -

The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him.

So, could the hröa cling to life with such a strength to remain alive even without the fëa?... It is creepy...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I thought that too... I always imagined that Frodo, Sam, and Gimli, lived through what was left for them and then died in the bliss of those lands.
That is one thing that puzzles me, which is fairly related to this topic. Why was Gimli allowed to go to the West. He wasn't a Ringbearer as Bilbo, Frodo & Sam. In the Appendices it says that it was Galadriel who pleaded his cas, but I see two problems with this. A. It wasn't the Valar's decision, as it was Eru who said that no mortals could live in Valinor, was it not? B. Even Fëanor, who's persuasive skills were good enough to persuade the Noldor to leave Valinor, could not persuade the Valar to help him. I'm not completley satisfied.

The only reason that I can think of is that Aule may have had something to do with it. IIRC, does it say somewhere, either the Sil or one of the HoME books that when dwarves die they have a special hall in Aule's house, simliar to that of the Elves with Mandos.

Thoughts?

[Blackheart]

Perhaps a clue can be gleaned from Feanor's mother MÃ*riel...

Her body lay uncorrupted without its spirit for.. well maybe it's still there in the gardens of Lórien...

How can you have corruption in the blessed land? (unless you happen to invite the avatar of corruption to tea...)

Bilbo and Frodo et al probably wound up in similar circumstances, they at last grew weary and lay down, and their spirits left their bodies.

The bodies didn't decay. That's not to say that the bodies went on walking around like zombies... or even breathing. They likely remained just as they left them at the moment of death.

Were their spirit to return for some odd reason, it's possible they could indeed undego a "Resurrection"... which fits in with Tolkien's tie-ins with christianity...

As for "..wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast..."

You should remember your fairy tales. Isn't the enchanted sleep of ages a staple of fey?

I would hazard a guess that mortals would succumb to the weariness from unadulterated bliss and fall into an "enchanted sleep", or you could call it death, since the spirit leaves the body.

[Gordis]

I would hazard a guess that mortals would succumb to the weariness from unadulterated bliss and fall into an "enchanted sleep", or you could call it death, since the spirit leaves the body.
Yes, but they are still entitled to the Gift of Eru. The coming to Valinor doesn't turn therm to elves or maiar. So, when the spirit leaves the body, it leaves the Circles of the world. What good is to have a body, corrupted or nor, lying around in Valinor? Worse still if the body still walks and breaths - it is not even fit to be decently buried - one has to kill it first.

Why bring poor hobbits to such an awful place? :eek:

[Blackheart]

Maybe that's why mortals aren't allowed in Aman.

It would get rather cluttered after a while, wouldn't it?

Think about it...

[CAB]

I don’t think these two quotes are necessarily incompatible. The hroa and fea are two separate things. Probably most of the time they weary at the same rate, but in Valinor the fea desires release sooner than it normally would, while the body is still strong. The hroa wouldn’t have to be immortal, it could age at the same rate as it would in Middle Earth. I think the comparison to Miriel is a good one. Her body wasn’t tired but her spirit was. I can’t guess why her body would sleep while mortals’ wouldn’t though. I would guess that Tolkien was planning to use this as justification for the Valar fencing themselves from Middle Earth and the mortal races.

It is strange that the ringbearers and Gimli would be invited. Maybe Tol Eressea didn’t have the same effect on mortals because the Valar didn’t live there? Maybe Gimli was just a token Dwarf?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I decided to put it into a separate thread as it has little to do with the nazgul...


Thanks for the Quote, Rian. As I said, it seems to be in dire contradiction with Akkalabeth, where the messengers from Valinor claimed that: '
I always understood that in the Light of Aman the mortals would only DIE sooner. But, considering your quote, Rian, perhaps it meant that the Men in Aman would not die after all, that Valinor made bodies immortal, exactly like Sauron said? So they will not die, only grow weary and beg for death?

But isn't it the fact that the Deathless Ones live in Aman make it the Deathless Land, rather than making them Deathless?

[Rían]

Just a quick post because I"m out of time -

two things - first, JRRT said that essay was very speculative, and second, he says in Letters (IIRC) that Frodo, etc. were only in Valinor for a short time for rest and healing, and then would continue on with their normal course of things, which would be to die.

[Gordis]

Probably the Valar themselves had no idea what was about to happen to humans, so they started experimenting on hobbits. :eek: But hobbits are very resistant creatures... :evil:

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Maybe that's why mortals aren't allowed in Aman.

It would get rather cluttered after a while, wouldn't it?

Think about it...

Don't know why I didn't say this before, but better late than never:

Blackheart, you are a gem. :D

*Notes his idiotism in the previous post and corrects it*