Why wasn't Gollum turned into a wraith?

[CAB]

Is the reason Gollum didn’t become a wraith after possessing the Ring for nearly five hundred years explained solely by the Hobbits’ natural resistance, or is there something more?

I think one important point to consider is Gollum’s appearance compared to other mortal ringbearers. Bilbo and Frodo seem simply to be ageing very slowly. We don’t have much of a description of what the Nazgul looked like, but what we do have suggests that they appeared to essentially resemble very old men. While admittedly in one scene (The Stairs of Cirith Ungol - The Two Towers) Gollum is said to basically resemble an old Hobbit, this is the exception. More often Gollum is described in terms more similar to descriptions of Orcs than Hobbits or Men. (Actually I think Gollum may have been essentially been an Orc made from a Hobbit specimen by the time of the Lord of the Rings. No, I am not suggesting that Morgoth or Sauron used rings to make Orcs. Rather I think the twisting and cruelty of the process and the end result were much the same.)

One might argue that the One Ring wasn’t intended to create wraiths since Sauron never planned on another holding it. Yet it seems the evil power of the One and Nine are very similar, probably due to their connection. Why would the One give the holder a view into the Unseen world? Surely Sauron already possessed this power. Why would the One extend it’s holder’s life? Sauron was immortal. I am not sure how the Seven and Three fit in here. My guess is that the Seven at least were basically (if not exactly) the same as the Nine and that the Dwarves simply reacted to them differently than Men or Hobbits would. The Three may have been the exception due to the fact they remained “unsullied” or perhaps their holders reaction was different due to the Elves immortality and strength.

I personally don’t believe that Sauron originally intended for any of the rings to make their holders wraiths. It would make sense that the rings were meant to bring groups of people, rather than only individuals, under Sauron’s control, and so were given to leaders or potential leaders. Why would Sauron want these leaders, who presumably would be coaxing or forcing their followers to serve Sauron, to become wraiths?

My guess is that, in spite of Sauron’s intentions, mortals, or at least Men (and Hobbits are, I believe, a branch of Men) began to age rapidly at a certain point after holding a great ring. Perhaps at this point Sauron must act, probably via the One Ring, creating the “fading” process to cause the ringholder to become a Ringwraith and thus somewhat salvage and retain his servant. If he doesn’t act then the ringholder is relatively quickly twisted into an Orclike/Gollumlike creature. If this were true it would help explain the nature of Gollum’s existence. Obviously, Sauron couldn’t change Gollum to a Ringwraith via the One since Gollum was holding it.
I have no doubt that this theory has some flaws. There is certainly a lot of conjecture in my conclusion. However the original question seems quite intriguing and doesn’t seem to have been discussed here before. I would be very interested to hear what others think about it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I personally don’t believe that Sauron originally intended for any of the rings to make their holders wraiths. It would make sense that the rings were meant to bring groups of people, rather than only individuals, under Sauron’s control, and so were given to leaders or potential leaders. Why would Sauron want these leaders, who presumably would be coaxing or forcing their followers to serve Sauron, to become wraiths?
I disagree. That was probably part of the lure to the Nine Kings, the promise of mortality.

As for Gollum my guess would be that it is because he didn't wear it all of, if any of the time. The Nine most likely wore their Rings all of the time, as a sign of their Kingship. Yet in the Hobbit it says Gollum only wore his Ring when he went hunting for stray goblins.

[The Gaffer]

Interesting question.

In The Shadow of the Past, Gandalf connects Bilbo's lack of apparent ageing with his possession of the ring, not his wearing of it. The possessor then becomes a withered creature - "stretched" in Bilbo's words - like Gollum.

The "fading" to the "other side" is connected with wearing it. And with the Morgul-knife of course. Notice how the wraiths could not physically seize Frodo until he was "on the other side".

I think that we are explicitly told that Gollum used to be a hobbit many times in The Hobbit and LOTR.

[Gordis]

Most interesting thread, CAB! Thank you so much for starting it!

Is the reason Gollum didn’t become a wraith after possessing the Ring for nearly five hundred years explained solely by the Hobbits’ natural resistance, or is there something more?
There are several factors, IMHO
1. Hobbits' natural resistance
2. Gollum used the Ring very little (as TD says), and only for invisibility (which I believe was the most innocent use), NOT for dominating other Rings (or other wills), or for some sorcery.
3. Third factor would be good vs evil intent at the beginning. But Gollum came into the possession of the Ring through murder, and used it for spying on his relatives and for stealing, so the third factor worked against him.

I think one important point to consider is Gollum’s appearance compared to other mortal ringbearers. Bilbo and Frodo seem simply to be ageing very slowly.
I have to disagree, I am not aware that Bilbo and Frodo were ageing AT ALL, while in possession of the Ring. There are several quotes to back that up:
And if that was not enough for fame, there was also his prolonged vigour to marvel at. Time wore on, but it seemed to have little effect on Mr. Baggins. At ninety he was much the same as at fifty. At ninety-nine they began to call him well-preserved, but unchanged would have been nearer the mark. There were some that shook their heads and thought this was too much of a good thing; it seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustible wealth. - LOTR

Frodo has grown fat, while living in the Shire, but in Rivendell, looking into the mirror, he saw again the young (33 year old) hobbit he once was. Looking in a mirror he was startled to see a much thinner reflection of himself than he remembered: it looked remarkably like the young nephew of Bilbo who used to go tramping with his uncle in the Shire; but the eyes looked out at him thoughtfully.

Bilbo, I believe, was biologically still 50 years old when he gave the Ring to Frodo. Without the Ring, he continued ageing normally, so when Frodo met him again in Rivendell Bilbo was 67, looked slightly older than at the Party. Drastic thing has happened to Bilbo, when the Ring had been destroyed. He immediately found himself very old - 129 years - as old as the Old Took himself: ‘It is true that I wish to go back to the Shire,’ said Frodo. ‘But first I must go to Rivendell. For if there could be anything wanting in a time so blessed, I missed Bilbo; and I was grieved when among all the household of Elrond I saw that he was not come.’
‘Do you wonder at that, Ring-bearer?’ said Arwen. ‘For you know the power of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you. He is ancient in years now, according to his kind; and he awaits you, for he will not again make any long journey save one.

Now Gollum. Let us suppose, that he found the Ring at 20 (TA 2463). He had it for 478 years (till 2941). When he lost the Ring, the ageing returned, so, in 3018, biologically Gollum was 20+77 = 97 years old, definitely growing old. Now with the Ring destroyed, Gollum would have suddenly turned 575 years old - that means he would have died immediately, even without falling into the chasm.

]We don’t have much of a description of what the Nazgul looked like, but what we do have suggests that they appeared to essentially resemble very old men.
CAB, what makes you think so? Here is the quote from LOTR:
In their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel. Their eyes fell on him and pierced him, as they rushed towards him. Desperate, he drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand. Two of the figures halted. The third was taller than the others: his hair was long and gleaming and on his helm was a crown. In one hand he held a long sword, and in the other a knife; both the knife and the hand that held it glowed with a pale light. He sprang forward and bore down on Frodo.
Here we have two things: grey hairs and haggard hands. The WK was also described as "haggard King" later, at the bridge of Minas Morgul. I believe if Tolkien really wished to describe very old men, he would have been more explicit.

First of all, VERY old men have white hair (or no hair at all :D ), not grey. Secondly, perhaps, that was just the way the nazgul looked in the spirit world, where all seems to be in shades of grey. (Note also that the WK's long hair was gleaming). After all, when Frodo was suffering from the Morgul wound and Sam was wearing the Ring in Mordor, everything was gray and cloudy.
So, really, we only have to deal with "haggard":
"haggard" 1567, "wild, unruly," from M.Fr. haggard, probably from O.Fr. faulcon hagard "wild falcon," lit. "falcon of the woods," from M.H.G. hag "hedge, copse, wood," from P.Gmc. *khag-. Sense perhaps reinforced by Low Ger. hager "gaunt, haggard." Sense of "with a haunted expression" first recorded 1697, that of "careworn" first recorded 1853. Sense infl. by association with hag (q.v.)."
It is interesting this association with "wild" falcon then "gaunt", "haunted" and only finally, a century before Tolkien, the first appearance of a meaning "Worn and exhausted" influenced by a wrong association with "hag"... Tolkien was a linguist, he must have known all that. Also I highly recommend this article from Barrow-Downs site about the word:
http://www.barrowdowns.com/tt-haggard.php

I think, the nazgul still physically had the same age when they were given their Rings. They have become wraiths while wearing them, so, later, even without their rings, the wraiths didn't age.

But that doesn't mean the nazgul looked as flourishing and healthy as they did before the Rings. They were gaunt and haggard. I think all these changes happened when their natural lifespan ended, and their lives became stretched. Bilbo at 111, only just entered into this period (hobbits lived to around 100): he complained he recently felt tired, old, needing a holiday, restless and stretched like little butter over too much bread. Also he felt the Eye and the need to have the ring closer and closer to him: keeping it in his pocket.

The nazgul must have endured all the horrors of this long transitional period, before they turned wraiths. Perhaps they lived more than a hundred years like that, still alive, but completely exhausted mentally ("until at last every minute is a weariness"-LOTR). That is when they became gaunt and haggard, IMHO: probably they stopped eating and sleeping. And, for Men, this period was longer and even more torturous if the ringbearer "was strong or well-meaning to begin with"-LOTR. (So basically ;) the more haggard a nazgul looks, the better man he had been in life, while the healthy-looking ones were weak and evil when alive :) ).

While admittedly in one scene (The Stairs of Cirith Ungol - The Two Towers) Gollum is said to basically resemble an old Hobbit, this is the exception. More often Gollum is described in terms more similar to descriptions of Orcs than Hobbits or Men. (Actually I think Gollum may have been essentially been an Orc made from a Hobbit specimen by the time of the Lord of the Rings. No, I am not suggesting that Morgoth or Sauron used rings to make Orcs. Rather I think the twisting and cruelty of the process and the end result were much the same.)
Gollum (because of hobbit endurance) had an extremely long transitional period, it seems, about 400 years, more than any nazgul. He became all bones and sinew, gaunt spidery creature. And it was not from lack of food, IMHO: he could get fish aplenty, and some goblins for a better diet. Moreover, he lived in a lightless cave, that will account for his bulging luminous eyes and spidery attitudes. More like "evolution through adaptation" :D .

One might argue that the One Ring wasn’t intended to create wraiths since Sauron never planned on another holding it. Yet it seems the evil power of the One and Nine are very similar, probably due to their connection. Why would the One give the holder a view into the Unseen world? Surely Sauron already possessed this power. Why would the One extend it’s holder’s life? Sauron was immortal. I am not sure how the Seven and Three fit in here. My guess is that the Seven at least were basically (if not exactly) the same as the Nine and that the Dwarves simply reacted to them differently than Men or Hobbits would. The Three may have been the exception due to the fact they remained “unsullied” or perhaps their holders reaction was different due to the Elves immortality and strength.
I agree. Invisibility was not the main power of any ring, it was more like a side-effect. Perhaps a wielder of a ring had to have access into the Spirit world to be able to do sorcery. Elves never meant any of the Rings for Men; I think Sauron also had little idea about the effect it will have on a mortal.


My guess is that, in spite of Sauron’s intentions, mortals, or at least Men (and Hobbits are, I believe, a branch of Men) began to age rapidly at a certain point after holding a great ring. Perhaps at this point Sauron must act, probably via the One Ring, creating the “fading” process to cause the ringholder to become a Ringwraith and thus somewhat salvage and retain his servant. If he doesn’t act then the ringholder is relatively quickly twisted into an Orclike/Gollumlike creature. If this were true it would help explain the nature of Gollum’s existence. Obviously, Sauron couldn’t change Gollum to a Ringwraith via the One since Gollum was holding it.
I can't agree with it, because I disagree with your initial points: that the ringbearers aged, and that the nazgul looked like very old men.

Moreover there is this quote from letters:
Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.-L # 212.
The process was similar: the difference was only in the original person the Ring acted upon.

What sayest thou, CAB? :)
And I will be grateful for other Mooters' comments as well! :)

[Sam]

I think that the reason why gollum wasn't turned into a wraith was because he never came into direct contact with Sauron or the Nazgul (while in posetion of the ring of corse).

Maybe to fully become a servant of Sauron, you would need to first be directly in the presence of Sauron (or a Nazgul).

But then again, how do we know that the nine ever came face to face with Sauron
:confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I disagree, as the power of Sauron was in the One. They wouldn't need to come into contact with SAuron or the Nine.

[Valandil]

Most interesting thread, CAB! Thank you so much for starting it!
There are several factors, IMHO
1. Hobbits' natural resistance
2. Gollum used the Ring very little (as TD says), and only for invisibility (which I believe was the most innocent use), NOT for dominating other Rings (or other wills), or for some sorcery.
3. Third factor would be good vs evil intent at the beginning. But Gollum came into the possession of the Ring through murder, and used it for spying on his relatives and for stealing, so the third factor worked against him.


To add to those:
4. Remember that it took a very long time for the bearers of the Nine to become Wraiths. Over 500 years I believe. Consider this with #'s 1 and 2 above.
5. Gollum was never stabbed by a Morgul blade - which might have immensely speeded the process, if it reached the heart or otherwise caused death (as was nearly so for Frodo).

So... Gollum was a Wraith in the making, but hadn't arrived yet. :)

[CAB]

Thank you to everyone for your replies. Sorry I am just now getting back. It has been a busy week for me.

I think what you all (except Sam) are saying is basically in line with the reasons Gandalf gave. I can’t really argue much with this line of reasoning. Still, I think it may be a bit more complicated than this. While Gandalf’s explanation may tell us why Gollum wasn’t turned into wraith, it doesn’t necessarily tell us how the Nazgul were. These ideas from the first post haven’t been discussed yet (reasonably enough since they aren’t entirely concerned with the original question).

And if that was not enough for fame, there was also his prolonged vigour to marvel at. Time wore on, but it seemed to have little effect on Mr. Baggins. At ninety he was much the same as at fifty. At ninety-nine they began to call him well-preserved, but unchanged would have been nearer the mark. There were some that shook their heads and thought this was too much of a good thing; it seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustible wealth. - LOTR
This is kind of funny Gordis. It was this exact passage and especially the word “unchanged” that I first thought of while considering this question. Upon rereading though, I was struck by “much the same as at fifty” and “unchanged would have been nearer the mark”. Also there is the description of the Nazgul. I did somewhat misunderstand the word “haggard”. Thank you for the link. How ancient they look isn’t really important to what I was trying to say though. Maybe I shouldn’t have said “very” old. My point was that they almost certainly appeared (at least a little) older than when they first received the rings and that, in contrast to Gollum, still looked pretty much human rather than creature/Orc. These things made me think that maybe there was some very slow physical aging process occurring. You put forth a very good ring/aging theory Gordis. It may explain the appearances of the ringbearers. I have to ask you this though. Does it say anywhere that Bilbo looked any older when Frodo and Co. first came to Rivendell? I don’t remember seeing this. Also Gandalf says that Gollum felt old when he left the mountains but I don’t recall anything about differences in his appearance.


I think that the reason why gollum wasn't turned into a wraith was because he never came into direct contact with Sauron or the Nazgul (while in posetion of the ring of corse).Welcome to the Moot Sam. Thank you for your reply.

We seem to (somewhat at least) agree. I don’t think direct contact with the Nazgul or Sauron was needed but I do think that Sauron had to be aware of the ringholder (via the One Ring) and cause the “wraithing” process (again via the One Ring).

If the great rings were meant to make wraiths, why would it take so long? The morgul knife can apparently accomplish this in just days. Yes the knife causes a wound and leaves a splinter but the rings have to be much more powerful. Should the difference in the efficiency in wraith-making between the two be that great?

Would anyone like to comment on these points from the first post about how the Nazgul were created?

1. Sauron must be holding the One Ring for the other rings to make wraiths.
2. Sauron causes “fading” process rather than this being a result of the ringholder’s extended life.
3. The reason Sauron created the Nazgul was to make the best of the situation. The ringholders would eventually turn into Orclike/Gollumlike creatures if he didn’t act. He preferred to have nine ringwraiths to having nine (probably exceptional) Orclike creatures.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

We seem to (somewhat at least) agree. I don’t think direct contact with the Nazgul or Sauron was needed but I do think that Sauron had to be aware of the ringholder (via the One Ring) and cause the “wraithing” process (again via the One Ring).
I disagree. If this was true then Gollum, Frodo and Bilbo would have become wraiths.

If the great rings were meant to make wraiths, why would it take so long? The morgul knife can apparently accomplish this in just days. Yes the knife causes a wound and leaves a splinter but the rings have to be much more powerful. Should the difference in the efficiency in wraith-making between the two be that great?
I disagree that the One was meant to make wraiths. IMO only the seven and the nine had the ability to do that as Sauron had touched them, but because of the dwarven nature they did not become wraiths. The thee could not have done either for Elrond was not made a wraith, and he did not exist in both worlds as Galadriel and Gandalf did, as he had not seen Valinor. It has been said by someone else on the Moot, (maybe it was you CAB) but why would the One make wraiths. Sauron was a Maia, and he did not intend on losing the Ring, or any other possesing it.

[Earniel]

Personally I always thought that wraith-dom wasn't determined by how long a ring is worn or by Sauron' s control over it. I always thought the determining factor was trying to master and/or use the power of the rings. Gollum wore the ring for long but didn't try to use it. The invisibility was standard when wearing it, Gollum didn't have to bend the One Ring to his will to become invisible. (I doubt think Gollum would have been strong enough for that anyway.)

The Nine rings surely must have had some strengths or powers and I'm sure thei bearers were able to use them to that capacity.

[CAB]

I disagree. If this was true then Gollum, Frodo and Bilbo would have become wraiths.
What I mean by “via the One Ring” is that Sauron himself must be wearing the One. His awareness of the other ringbearers and power over them and their rings is due to the connection between all the rings and the dominating power of the One. Sauron had no such awareness or power over Gollum, Frodo, or Bilbo because he didn’t have the One, they did.


I disagree that the One was meant to make wraiths. IMO only the seven and the nine had the ability to do that as Sauron had touched them, but because of the dwarven nature they did not become wraiths. The thee could not have done either for Elrond was not made a wraith, and he did not exist in both worlds as Galadriel and Gandalf did, as he had not seen Valinor. It has been said by someone else on the Moot, (maybe it was you CAB) but why would the One make wraiths. Sauron was a Maia, and he did not intend on losing the Ring, or any other possesing it.

I somewhat agree with you here. As I said before, I don’t think any of the rings were meant to make wraiths. However if the other rings were supposed to make wraiths then you are right, it would be odd that the One would also have this power. But then, as I said in an earlier post in this thread, why does the One give extended life and vision in the Unseen world? Sauron already has these things. It would seem that the rings all shared these affects, probably due to their deep connection. And yes, that was me who made the remark about Sauron not intending to ever lose the One. I was using this point to show the similarities between all the rings’ powers because it seems that Gollum may have been on his way to becoming a wraith. At least some sort of unhealthy process was happening to Gollum that Sauron probably wouldn't want to happen to himself. But you could certainly look at it the other way and say that Gollum wasn’t made into a wraith because the One Ring and only the One (ok maybe the Three also) wasn’t intended for this purpose.

You are right, I think, that the Dwarves weren’t changed to wraiths due to their nature, but I think this also applies (in a different way) to the Elves and Gandalf. When speaking with Frodo, Gandalf implied that only mortals fade (become wraiths). It is also possible that the Three, being “unsullied” didn’t have the power to make wraiths.

Personally I always thought that wraith-dom wasn't determined by how long a ring is worn or by Sauron' s control over it. I always thought the determining factor was trying to master and/or use the power of the rings. Gollum wore the ring for long but didn't try to use it. The invisibility was standard when wearing it, Gollum didn't have to bend the One Ring to his will to become invisible. (I doubt think Gollum would have been strong enough for that anyway.)

The Nine rings surely must have had some strengths or powers and I'm sure thei bearers were able to use them to that capacity.
Your opinion seems to be close to Gandalf’s explanation and so is quite possible. Actually my theory only works if we assume that the rings were not intended to make wraiths. If this isn’t true, it falls apart.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What I mean by “via the One Ring” is that Sauron himself must be wearing the One. His awareness of the other ringbearers and power over them and their rings is due to the connection between all the rings and the dominating power of the One. Sauron had no such awareness or power over Gollum, Frodo, or Bilbo because he didn’t have the One, they did.
Sorry, I misunderstod you.

But then, as I said in an earlier post in this thread, why does the One give extended life and vision in the Unseen world? Sauron already has these things.
I think that is the reason. Sauron put much of his own power into the One, that would be my guess.

[Gordis]

I think that the reason why gollum wasn't turned into a wraith was because he never came into direct contact with Sauron or the Nazgul (while in posetion of the ring of corse).
Maybe to fully become a servant of Sauron, you would need to first be directly in the presence of Sauron (or a Nazgul).
But then again, how do we know that the nine ever came face to face with Sauron
Welcome to the Moot, Sam!

I think these are two different things: becoming a wraith and becoming Sauron's servant.
Gollum wasn't turned into a wraith mostly because he was a hobbit - uncommonly resistant creature.
And he didn't become a servant of Sauron, but only a servant of the Ring, because Sauron had no real hook for him.

The nazgul in the Second age wielded the Nine Rings which were controlled by the One, held by Sauron. Thus he had direct access to their minds - and must have used the link a lot for brainwashing. Remember when Sauron first put on the One and uttered the Ring-Spell (Ash nazg drabatuluk etc..), all the Elves who had the Ring of Power heard it immediately. And Sauron was in Mordor, while they were far away in Eregion. So, there was a strong mental link between the Wielders of the Nine, Seven and Three and the wielder of the One - Sauron. No doubt, gradually, the future nazgul had become Sauron's servants - at the same time or before as they became wraiths.

Now with Gollum, Sauron had no communication whatsoever. Gollum became slave to the Ring, and to the Master of the Ring (that hold on him Frodo used), but hated Sauron all the more. Even when captured and tortured in Mordor, even questioned by Sauron himself, he didn't tell all he knew - not a small feat!

Look at Frodo - he advanced greatly towards wraithdom (aided by the Morgul wound) but he showed no signs of becoming Sauron's servant.

I am sure, if Sauron gave one of the Nine Rings to a Man again, but not in the Second Age when he had the One, but in the Third Age, when the One was lost, the man would have become a wraith, but NOT Sauron's servant.

but why would the One make wraiths. Sauron was a Maia, and he did not intend on losing the Ring, or any other possesing it
It is evident from the text that making men into wraiths was connected with the property of a given Ring to confer invisibility. The nine and the One surely could confer invisibility - so they were making wraiths. For the One it was surely not intentional, but a side-effect.

While Gandalf’s explanation may tell us why Gollum wasn’t turned into wraith, it doesn’t necessarily tell us how the Nazgul were. These ideas from the first post haven’t been discussed yet (reasonably enough since they aren’t entirely concerned with the original question).

I think the Nazgul were turned into wraiths not intentionally. It was just a side effect of wielding a thing designed for the immortal elves. Their fëar became Elvish in a way - in that they were now bound to the Circles of the World and denied the Gift of Eru. But the fading process that was naturally affecting Elven hroar, instead of being a very slow one, became catastrophically fast. Indeed, Men's hroar were never meant to endure for millennia.

My point was that they almost certainly appeared (at least a little) older than when they first received the rings and that, in contrast to Gollum, still looked pretty much human rather than creature/Orc. These things made me think that maybe there was some very slow physical aging process occurring. You put forth a very good ring/aging theory Gordis. It may explain the appearances of the ringbearers. I have to ask you this though. Does it say anywhere that Bilbo looked any older when Frodo and Co. first came to Rivendell? I don’t remember seeing this. Also Gandalf says that Gollum felt old when he left the mountains but I don’t recall anything about differences in his appearance.
I reread the passage in Rivendell but found no description of Bilbo's appearance. I don't think there were any drastic changes, or it would be noted by Frodo. Bilbo said he felt old, though, but that is understandable. Gollum felt the same when he lost the Ring. But feeling old mentally is not the same as actually growing old physically, is it?

I don’t think direct contact with the Nazgul or Sauron was needed but I do think that Sauron had to be aware of the ringholder (via the One Ring) and cause the “wraithing” process (again via the One Ring).
I think the wraithing process was NOT caused by Sauron, it was Ring's side effect, and most likely undesirable one. What Sauron caused via the One Ring, was to make the nazgul turn "evil" and become his servants.

If the great rings were meant to make wraiths, why would it take so long? The morgul knife can apparently accomplish this in just days. Yes the knife causes a wound and leaves a splinter but the rings have to be much more powerful. Should the difference in the efficiency in wraith-making between the two be that great?
Again a rieason to think that the wraithing wasn't intentional in the case of the Rings, while it was in the case of the Morgul knife.

Now your points, CAB.

" 1. Sauron must be holding the One Ring for the other rings to make wraiths."
I disagree. I put it thus: Sauron must be holding the One Ring for the other Rings to make their wielders evil and his servants.

"2. Sauron causes “fading” process rather than this being a result of the ringholder’s extended life."
Again, I don't think so. Men wielding the Rings of Power (at least the 7 and the 9) become wraiths anyway.

"3. The reason Sauron created the Nazgul was to make the best of the situation. The ringholders would eventually turn into Orclike/Gollumlike creatures if he didn’t act. He preferred to have nine ringwraiths to having nine (probably exceptional) Orclike creatures"

Gollum was turning into a slimy spidery creature only because he spent 500 years in a cave. Had a future nazgul chosen to live in a cave, he would have mutated the same way, but not so much, as he would have become a wraith and stopped changing earlier. Frodo and Bilbo showed no signs of turning "orclike" or Gollumlike", at least physically. The nazgul, kings or high lords, most likely lead their usual life up to the end, so they showed no "gollum-like" features, only became gaunt and haggard from long mental suffering before the end.

That is my POV on the matter. I thank you again, CAB, for starting this most interesting discussion.

[Gordis]

I think one important point to consider is Gollum’s appearance compared to other mortal ringbearers. [...] While admittedly in one scene (The Stairs of Cirith Ungol - The Two Towers) Gollum is said to basically resemble an old Hobbit, this is the exception. More often Gollum is described in terms more similar to descriptions of Orcs than Hobbits or Men. (Actually I think Gollum may have been essentially been an Orc made from a Hobbit specimen by the time of the Lord of the Rings. No, I am not suggesting that Morgoth or Sauron used rings to make Orcs. Rather I think the twisting and cruelty of the process and the end result were much the same.)

Re: Gollum's appearance and mindset.

I think we all failed to consider another factor: Shelob. :eek:
Already, years before, Gollum had beheld her, Sméagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her, and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret.

[CAB]

Re: Gollum's appearance and mindset.

I think we all failed to consider another factor: Shelob. :eek:
I suppose you are right. Shelob must have had some influence over him. Still, this is only very late in his life. Maybe you had some of his spider-like qualities in mind? I hadn’t thought about that connection before.

[Gordis]

I suppose you are right. Shelob must have had some influence over him. Still, this is only very late in his life. Maybe you had some of his spider-like qualities in mind? I hadn’t thought about that connection before.
I haven't thought of the connection before as well :) . Gollum first met Shelob in 2080, so she had about 40 years to "work" on him. And those were yours when he already had no Ring, so he was able to age and to change his appearance normally. I guess his sliminess and his bulging luminous eyes date from his time in the cave, while his spider-like qualities and the "darkness" of his mind are due to Shelob.

[Zilbanne]

Gollum, does certainly seem to be a wraith in the making. Here is something I'm considering though... Would Gollum have to have been wounded or stabbed by Sauron himself or a Nazgul in order to completely become a wraith?

I wonder though did Sauron stab or wound the nine kings who eventually became ringwraiths himself, while they were under the power of the rings, in order to speed the process of becoming wraiths along?

Frodo was stabbed by one of the nine ( was it Angmar?) and so began to turn into a wraith. Was this potential wraithing (sorry) of Frodo happening quickly because he was wearing the ONE ring when he was stabbed with the Morgul blade. Would anyone stabbed with a Morgul blade become a wraith?

I guess what I'm considering is would Gollum have to be wounded by either Sauron or one of the Ringwraiths in order to become a wraith?

As far as we know he was questioned and tortured but would he need something other than the power of the one ring working on him to be a wraith?

[ecthelion]

Great points worth discussion, CAB!
IMO, turning into a wraith requires some specific spell.
The morgul blades were probably wound about with such a spell, so getting stabbed would automatically do it.
The nine ring-beares were under the influence of their rings, so also under the influence of the one, and so under the influence of Sauron, who could have put on them a very nasty and torturous spell at his leisure.
Evil always delights in doing evil, both small and big. So even if the nine were less useful as wraiths than as humans, the great evil done in the process would be worth it. :evil:
Finally, since Sauron never expected to lose the one, it was always intended for him alone, maybe it did not have such a spell of becoming a wraith. And maybe all its effects and powers we see on gollum and the hobbits, are all side effects, and a mortal wearer would not become a wraith.
I think Sauron also didn't have power over the bearer, and could not put the wearer under a spell of "wraithing" as he did for the nine...

[Gordis]

Welcome to the Moot, Zilbanne!

Gollum, does certainly seem to be a wraith in the making. Here is something I'm considering though... Would Gollum have to have been wounded or stabbed by Sauron himself or a Nazgul in order to completely become a wraith?
Nobody knows with those hobbits, whether a Ring could or couldn't turn them into a wraith, given sufficient time. Dwarves were the most resistant - they never became wraiths and the Rings didn't even prolong their lives, it seems. But it looks like that, as hobbits lives are prolonged, they would eventually turn wraiths, only it takes far longer than with Men. Men (future nazgul) all turned into wraiths in less than 500 years - I am basing on Gandalf's words:
"Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore: an obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises. Soft as butter they can be, and yet sometimes as tough as old tree-roots. I think it likely that some would resist the Rings far longer than most of the Wise would believe.".

Surely stabbing Gollum with a Morgul-Knife would have turned him into a wraith. But the Morgul poison/spell was made just for wraithing people, while with the Rings, turning the wielders into wraiths might have been an undesired side-effect.

Note, that Gollum had been to Mordor, even in Barad-Dur. If the Dark Lord wished him to become a wraith, he would have dispatched him to the other side speedily. But Gollum was more useful when still in this World.


I wonder though did Sauron stab or wound the nine kings who eventually became ringwraiths himself, while they were under the power of the rings, in order to speed the process of becoming wraiths along?
I am almost sure he didn't. I think the "wraithing" effect was undesired. And then it is stated unambiguously that the rings ALONE turned their wielders into wraiths.

Frodo was stabbed by one of the nine ( was it Angmar?) and so began to turn into a wraith. Was this potential wraithing (sorry) of Frodo happening quickly because he was wearing the ONE ring when he was stabbed with the Morgul blade. Would anyone stabbed with a Morgul blade become a wraith? The Witch-King stabbed him, yes. The wraithing of Frodo was happening far slower than normal, because he was a hobbit, not a man:
Frodo shuddered, remembering the cruel knife with notched blade that had vanished in Strider's hands. `Don't be alarmed!' said Gandalf. `It is gone now. It has been melted. And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days.'

and maybe also because he had the One Ring in his possession.
As for the One Ring, it is an interesting question. On one hand, I think that if Frodo put the Ring on while still having the Morgul shard in his body, he would have become wraith immediately (sort of cumulative effect). On the other hand, perhaps, the Ring helped its master somehow to bear the wound? I don't know.

I guess what I'm considering is would Gollum have to be wounded by either Sauron or one of the Ringwraiths in order to become a wraith? As far as we know he was questioned and tortured by would he need something other than the power of the one ring working on him to be a wraith?
I think he could be turned into a wraith by a Morgul-blade - the fastest way, or he could be turned into one by the Ring - but it might have taken several more centuries.

[Gordis]

IMO, turning into a wraith requires some specific spell.
The morgul blades were probably wound about with such a spell, so getting stabbed would automatically do it.
The nine ring-beares were under the influence of their rings, so also under the influence of the one, and so under the influence of Sauron, who could have put on them a very nasty and torturous spell at his leisure.
I have no proof, but I believe that the mechanism of "wraithing" via Rings and via the Morgul-wound was different. The blade dispatched one speedily, and having made enough knives, a nazgul could "wraith" as many people as he wanted. As for the Rings, I certainly favour your second idea that the "wraithing" was an undesired side effect, an intrinsic property of this type of ring.

Evil always delights in doing evil, both small and big. So even if the nine were less useful as wraiths than as humans, the great evil done in the process would be worth it.
I think I disagree. Sauron, especially in his earlier days as Annatar, was a very RATIONAL being. He wouldn't do something against his own interests just because of his 'evilness".

Finally, since Sauron never expected to lose the one, it was always intended for him alone, maybe it did not have such a spell of becoming a wraith. And maybe all its effects and powers we see on gollum and the hobbits, are all side effects, and a mortal wearer would not become a wraith.
I think, here is a very interesting observation. Indeed, the One was meant for Sauron, and not to ensnare anyone else. But it is said, that in order to rule all the other 19 Rings, the One had the power exceeding that of all the 19 combined.
I think, it also had all the powers, properties and side-effects contained in the other rings, including invisibility (because really why would Sauron need invisibility himself?). The One Ring, when wielded by Sauron to its fill power, could "kindle hearts" as Narya, preserve large territories from fading, like Nenya, transfer a physical body into the Spirit world as the 9, could make people greedy as the 7, and so on. So a mortal wielder of the One would become a wraith, but not much faster than one wielding one of the 9.


I think Sauron also didn't have power over the bearer, and could not put the wearer under a spell of "wraithing" as he did for the nine...
The first part of your idea is very true. Sauron gained practically no power over Gollum. The wretch, when questioned by Sauron personally, could even feed him some lies undetected ("and what he knew, he falsified" - UT) and hated Sauron's very guts instead of becoming a faithful servant.

For the same reason, Sauron couldn't bestow the Nine he has gathered to himself to men again, to make more nazgul, while he had NO Ruling ring in his possession. The wielder of one of the Nine in the Third Age would have become a wraith, but not Sauron's servant.

[Landroval]

Sauron, especially in his earlier days as Annatar, was a very RATIONAL being. He wouldn't do something against his own interests just because of his 'evilness".
Well, he did refuse the summons of the valar after the war of wrath, because of his evil side. And one way to read Myths Transformed is that evil is a subcategory of stupidity :D
The wielder of one of the Nine in the Third Age would have become a wraith, but not Sauron's servant.
Hm, the way I interpret the various mentioning of "wraith" in FotR, for example, is that it represents complete obedience to Sauron.

[CAB]

Welcome to Entmoot Zilbanne and thank you for your comments ecthelion. My opinions on this matter have changed a little bit and, also, I don’t think I explained myself terribly well before, so I will try again.


Gollum, does certainly seem to be a wraith in the making.
Maybe, but are you sure? We see that he has been greatly twisted, physically and mentally, but is he really becoming a wraith? Personally, I think the effects we see with Gollum are results of a completely different process than wraithing. He is being prolonged and twisted by the Ring, nothing more.

I can recall only one instance when we actually see (what we know to be) someone becoming a wraith; Frodo after being stabbed with a Morgul blade. What are the similarities between what is happening to Frodo with his Morgul wound and to Gollum with the Ring? Are there any?

Of course we can’t know, but to me it seems likely that wraith-making was too complicated to be a mere side effect. The preserving of life and twisting process, however, probably were simple enough (or closely enough related to the rings’ original purpose) to be side effects, in my opinion anyway.

Frodo was stabbed by one of the nine ( was it Angmar?) and so began to turn into a wraith. Was this potential wraithing (sorry) of Frodo happening quickly because he was wearing the ONE ring when he was stabbed with the Morgul blade. Would anyone stabbed with a Morgul blade become a wraith?
Actually it seems that Frodo was becoming a wraith more slowly than most people would after receiving such a wound. And it seems that with help, it was possible to avoid becoming a wraith after being stabbed with a Morgul blade. Frodo doesn’t seem to be the only known example. Gordis started this excellent thread a while back. I highly recommend reading it. It is very interesting. http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=12153

IMO, turning into a wraith requires some specific spell.
The morgul blades were probably wound about with such a spell, so getting stabbed would automatically do it.
Agreed.

Finally, since Sauron never expected to lose the one, it was always intended for him alone, maybe it did not have such a spell of becoming a wraith. And maybe all its effects and powers we see on gollum and the hobbits, are all side effects, and a mortal wearer would not become a wraith.
Agreed again. The One Ring was meant for control. The Hobbits don’t use it for this (well, maybe Frodo a little bit). What we see with them are essentially all side effects. One possible exception would be Sam’s understanding of the Orcs’ speaking. Maybe Sauron built this power into the Ring to be able to understand the thoughts of those holders of the other great rings whose languages he didn’t speak.
Evil always delights in doing evil, both small and big. So even if the nine were less useful as wraiths than as humans, the great evil done in the process would be worth it. :evil:
I somewhat agree with you here and somewhat agree with Gordis. Personally, as I said before, I think it was a measure of last resort, done purposefully.




I wonder though did Sauron stab or wound the nine kings who eventually became ringwraiths himself, while they were under the power of the rings, in order to speed the process of becoming wraiths along?
I am almost sure he didn't. I think the "wraithing" effect was undesired. And then it is stated unambiguously that the rings ALONE turned their wielders into wraiths.
I think that is a interesting idea Zilbanne. Maybe not so much to speed things along, but rather simply to cause the entire wraithing process. However, I think it probably was just the rings (or really, Sauron via the rings). Gordis, I am probably forgetting something, but where is this unambiguous statement you are referring to?

For the same reason, Sauron couldn't bestow the Nine he has gathered to himself to men again, to make more nazgul, while he had NO Ruling ring in his possession. The wielder of one of the Nine in the Third Age would have become a wraith, but not Sauron's servant.
Well Gordis, I am sure you would agree that the main reason that Sauron didn’t give the nine rings to other men was that he needed them to control the Nazgul. I also wonder if the rings could hold more than one (partial, I suppose) fea. Who knows? Maybe this is a reason why Gollum wasn’t a wraith. The Ring could only hold one fea and it already held Sauron’s. Concerning your last point, in my opinion, a holder of one of the nine rings in the Third Age wouldn’t have been under Sauron’s control or turned to a wraith. He would have been effected much the same as Frodo/Bilbo/Gollum.

[Gordis]

Well, he did refuse the summons of the valar after the war of wrath, because of his evil side. And one way to read Myths Transformed is that evil is a subcategory of stupidity :D
Come on, NOT going to Valinor was the wisest decision Sauron made in his life! :p
Look what the Valar did to Morgoth! :(

CAB, I have to disagree with your idea that the One, unlike the 9, didn't turn men into wraiths eventually.

I have found a quote about it:
From Letter 131: The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility. But secretly in the subterranean Fire, in his own Black Land, Sauron made One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them.

I interpret this quote like that: The One Ring contained the powers of all the others, so it HAD to contain the property to turn a mortal into a wraith.

Also the One DID confer invisibility- and using the invisibility function seems to be DIRECTLY connected with becoming the wraith at the end: ‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.


But yes, CAB, you are right, Gollum hadn't faded - he hadn't even BEGUN to fade, he way Frodo faded after Weathertop. For instance, at the Ford, Frodo saw the nazgul faces even without his Ring, while Gollum was absolutely unable to see Bilbo wearing the Ring.

So clearly, with Gollum, the process was VERY slow. Some argue that he didn't use the Ring much, but I favour his special hobbit resistance.

The same was true for Frodo - with the Morgul knife. He had the shard in him for 17 days! The nazgul themselves believed that he would turn into wraith in a day or two, so they stopped following the company. (They could and should! have followed them after Weathertop, but they even let the company cross the Road unchallenged and lost them again. Even if they did it on purpose :p , they had to explain it to Sauron somehow, hadn't they? I believe they told Sauron something like "Who could have thought that the midget would resist the shard for two weeks?" :confused: )

[Landroval]

Come on, NOT going to Valinor was the wisest decision Sauron made in his life! :P
Look what the Valar did to Morgoth!:(
Nice girls like bad guys, eh?;)

Sauron was given a chance of repentance, as Melkor was given once too. Manwe "left him room for repentance and ultimate rehabilitation", so I doubt that Sauron would have met Melkor's "end".

[CAB]

Gordis, I don’t think there really is a right answer to this question. There are problems with any one view, as far as I can tell.

CAB, I have to disagree with your idea that the One, unlike the 9, didn't turn men into wraiths eventually.

I interpret this quote like that: The One Ring contained the powers of all the others, so it HAD to contain the property to turn a mortal into a wraith.
This doesn’t really damage my argument. I agree that the One had the powers of the other rings but I don’t think that any of the rings had the ability to make wraiths. I think it was Sauron acting through the rings via the One.


Also the One DID confer invisibility- and using the invisibility function seems to be DIRECTLY connected with becoming the wraith at the end: A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.
This may damage my argument. There are some other possible interpretations for this quote though. It also makes me wonder why Gollum would have held out so long. He started his possesion of the Ring with the murder of his friend. It doesn’t get much less “well-meaning” than that. Shouldn’t his Hobbit toughness have been offset a bit by this?

I have started to think that maybe Hobbit resistance is due more to thier lack of ambition and evil tendancies than any physical or mental strengths. Gollum seems to have been an exception to this general trait of Hobbits and he was more easily seduced by the Ring than anyone else. So, I don’t see him not becoming a wraith due to resistance, but rather because there was no wraith making process present.

As for Frodo and his Morgul wound, it is possible that the Ring actually aided his fight against “wraithdom”. The rings preserved their mortal owners’ lives. Frodo’s life would have essentially been ended by the Morgul blade. So, maybe the Ring helped to extend Frodo’s life by holding off his “wraithification”. I’d like to make up some more “wraith” words, but I’ll stop here.

[jammi567]

or maybe, there was a bit of evil in gollum before the murder, as well as the murder itself. but then he repented for his sins when he got inside the misty mountains. therefore, he's not turned into a wraith because he did an evil deed, but truely repented, so the ring has nothing to work on.

[Landroval]

Well, he did commit canybalism (he was eating orcs in the Hobbit, and intended to eat Bilbo too, and there is a line somewhere in LotR about Gollum eating elven children).

[jammi567]

yes, but that was to survive.

[Landroval]

I disagree; there is no mentioning of scarcity of food where Gollum used to live (the great goblin also used to send his underlings to bring fish from the lake); plus, in the Mirkwood, where he was snatching from cradles, he proves to be very versatile - and cruel too:
Through Mirkwood and back again it led them, though they never caught him. The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds. The Woodmen said that there was some new terror abroad, a ghost that drank blood. It climbed trees to find nests; it crept into holes to find the young; it slipped through windows to find cradles.

[jammi567]

ok, maybe it was for a bit of variety.

[Gordis]

ok, maybe it was for a bit of variety.
Exactly :D
One can't survive on fish for 500 years, though it is a healthy food, prolonging lives, I heard.

Perhaps Gollum has not turned into a wraith because of his fish diet? :p :D :eek:

[Olmer]

Perhaps Gollum has not turned into a wraith because of his fish diet? :p :D :eek:
Sea-food diet - I eat what I see. ;)
Perhaps, cooling off the Ring in the river reduced the potency.
Remember, the Ring was so hot, so Isildur can't even touch it.
I think, Gandalf has activated it by throwing the Ring in the fire. This why the Ring's effect on Frodo was more fast and dramatic.

[jammi567]

Perhaps, cooling off the Ring in the river reduced the potency. Remember, the Ring was so hot, so Isildur can't even touch it.
I think, Gandalf has activated it by throwing the Ring in the fire. This why the Ring's effect on Frodo was more fast and dramatic.
So you're saying, if this was true, that had Isildur had kept the ring for a bit longer then 2 years, then we would be having an extra wraith running around!

[jammi567]

If, this is true, and we take into other accounts the the morgul-blade sped up the wraithing prosess, then why didn't Frodo become a wraith whilst the lotr happens?

[Gordis]

Well, Frodo had the Ring fot less than 20 years, and he was more or less healed of the Morgul wound, at least the splinter was removed.

Surely it took much more than 20 years to turn even the weakest of Men into a wraith- don't forget Gandalf says "their life seemed endless"

[jammi567]

Good point.

[Zilbanne]

Gordis And CAB Thanks sincerely for the Welcome!

Somehow I think the nine men who became the Nazgul didn't become wraiths until well after their normal life spans, unless possibly they were stabbed with morgul blades before that. Sort of like what almost happened to Frodo because of his stabbing.

Frodo and Bilbo might never have become wraiths in the way that the nine did, because they weren't of bad character. Personally I think all the ONE ring could do to them, in their relative innocence, was prolongue their lives. Gradually and probably very gradually ,the ring may have influenced Bilbo and Frodo towards evil. It would take far longer than the quickway it worked on the nine men who became the nazgul or of course upon poor Smeagol. Those nine men were probably already greedy and power hungry before they were offered their rings. So the evil effect of the rings likely started through their own greed.

The Baggins hobbits intended to be good and always were good in a societal way and were never to be personally violent or even indulge in anything that could eventually lead to anything evil. Bilbo very sweetly used the power of invisbility from ring mostly to get out of the way of the Sackville-Baggins. Bilbo could have used the ring to bother other hobbits in a malicious way or plunder other hobbit holes but those as even possibilities would probably never even occur to Bilbo because he was so essentially good.

Frodo was going the way of a wraith because he was stabbed. Like Bilbo he didn't desire to use the ring for any personal gain either.

Gollum's personal change after his possesion of the ring, began with murder and he became feral and animalistic in a twisted, toadish, froggish sort of way. Maybe by the time Bilbo meets up with Gollum, he was on the way to becoming a wraith but would be this strange looking reptilian type of wraith, always quite different from the more usual mannish type. The ring amplified the feral parts of his nature which were already there before the ring came, but amplified them to an extreme degree. I think Smeagol was a kind of hobbit juvenille delinquent and was weak psychologically inside himself. The ring was quickly able to exploit his worst qualities because of his basic weak mindedness. I think without the ring's evil quickly invading his weak mind, Smeagol may have continued to act like a hoodlum. However he would probably not have become a murderer or bestial and cannabalistic either. The ring pushed his weak mind towards his feral, beastial nature and brought it out until Smeagol was overwhelmed by it all and became gollum completely.

Without interferrence from the ring, Smeagol may have come of age, settled down not far from his matriarchal grandmother's hole and may have achieved some degree of hobbit like, respectablilty. Probably with his neighbors forming the opinion properly that Smeagol was always rather strange. However we will never know for sure.


Pardon me if I'm stepping on anyone else's pre posted ideas! Not my intention. I'm new here and there is so much to read and catch up on. ;)

[jammi567]

so you're saying that none of the nine kings were good, but that all of them were bad and evil.

[Zilbanne]

No. They were inherently more greedy than Bilbo or Frodo though. Somehow the evil of the rings found something to exploit in them.

[jammi567]

but why are you just assuming that all the kings were greedy and such like?

[Zilbanne]

Yes I see. I have been making an assumption haven't I! I have been assuming that the nine kings who were offered rings were already greedy before they were offered the rings.

No. Before they had the rings, those nine kings were NOT necessarily more evil or more greedy than anyone else. Anyone who can have lots of everything at their disposal because they are a king though, runs the risk of becoming evil through a misuse of kingly power and the ability to be overly self indulgent because of their personal status as a king. This can happen to a king even if they don't have the evil power from a ring effecting them and pushing them along in a particular direction. I have been assuming that the nine kings were greedy. However they may not have been already greedy in a more outward or overt way. The rings may just have amplified in each of them the inherent problems that can come with a over use of too much power and began to work on them until they became evil.

My thoughts ran along the idea that Gandalf, Galadriel and Aragorn, who were all GOOD people and who had a substaintial amount of personal power, undestood that the ring would be dreadfully wrong even to touch. Not one of them physically were willing to touch the one ring even for a moment because it would have an evil effect on the personal power within them and attempt to turn it to evil.

[jammi567]

that's what i was thinking.

[Forkbeard]

I disagree; there is no mentioning of scarcity of food where Gollum used to live (the great goblin also used to send his underlings to bring fish from the lake); plus, in the Mirkwood, where he was snatching from cradles, he proves to be very versatile - and cruel too:
But I do believe the text says that he would hide in the dark, invisible, and squeeze himself a nice goblin to eat, so that even though the great goblin sent others down to the lake for fish, they were always relunctant to go because of what lived down there. Were Gollum just a strange little fisherman, there would be no reason to fear him.

I'll also point out that Gollum threatens to eat Bilbo.

[Forkbeard]

Exactly :D
One can't survive on fish for 500 years, though it is a healthy food, prolonging lives, I heard.

Perhaps Gollum has not turned into a wraith because of his fish diet? :p :D :eek:

There's some important factors re: Gollum not becoming a wraith while Frodo is.

a) A difference between Gollum and Frodo and the Nine is that during the majority of Sauron's searching for the Ring, Gollum was safe, Sauron hadn't revealed himself and only 50 years before had really begun to actively search for the Ring--when it was found by Bilbo.
b) the Nine are thousands of years old and have been under the effects of the rings for millenia. Gollum for less than half a thousand years. I'd say that for both Gollum and Bilbo, the unnatural stretching of their lives is the first sign of becoming a wraith. But even Gollum, unlike the Nine, had stopped wearing the ring much and had kept it hidden on his island, so its physical effects are not as powerful
c) Frodo is being helped into wraithdom by a wound from a Morgul knife--with the tip inside him for 2 weeks and closing on his heart; a knife with spells on it specifically designed to create wraiths under the power of the Nine and Sauron.

So I'd say that Gollum is on his way to becoming a wraith when he loses the Ring, Frodo is effected more by the Morgul knife than the Ring itself which he seldom wears (though often has about his person).

[Forkbeard]

Well, Frodo had the Ring fot less than 20 years, and he was more or less healed of the Morgul wound, at least the splinter was removed.

Surely it took much more than 20 years to turn even the weakest of Men into a wraith- don't forget Gandalf says "their life seemed endless"

Precisely so, and just for clarity, the effects of the wound had been arrested but not reversed.

[Forkbeard]

but why are you just assuming that all the kings were greedy and such like?

What we are told of the Rings of Power and Sauron's promises when he offered the Rings to the dwarves and to rulers of men indicate that those who received them were already of a certain disposition, else the promise of power etc would have no or little appeal.

[Landroval]

But I do believe the text says that he would hide in the dark, invisible, and squeeze himself a nice goblin to eat, so that even though the great goblin sent others down to the lake for fish, they were always relunctant to go because of what lived down there. Were Gollum just a strange little fisherman, there would be no reason to fear him.

I'll also point out that Gollum threatens to eat Bilbo.
Forkbeard, is there any disagreement between us? :confused:
What we are told of the Rings of Power and Sauron's promises when he offered the Rings to the dwarves and to rulers of men indicate that those who received them were already of a certain disposition, else the promise of power etc would have no or little appeal.
I am not sure if all of them were greedy and such, before becoming wraiths; sure, Gandalf descrived them as "proud and great", but we also have the following statements:
And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he_ fades:_ he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.
and:
And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's.
which imply that there were some nuances in how evil each one was. There is also a refference in letter #183 about all tyrannts beginning well, and Elrond states that nothing is evil in the begining.

[Olmer]

What we are told of the Rings of Power and Sauron's promises when he offered the Rings to the dwarves and to rulers of men indicate that those who received them were already of a certain disposition, else the promise of power etc would have no or little appeal.
It doesn't say the recipients were greedy, but I agree that they have been in some unfavorable for them disposition upon the recieving the Rings.
Rotten person would be inevitably drawn to evil, no need of magic ring.
The whole idea of the Rings of power was to subjugate to his control those, who, otherwise, would NEVER serve Sauron.
So, I think, they were the great men, noble,valiant and proud, who,at some point of their life, wanted to achieve something grand, noteworthy, which would not be easy to accomplish without a little trinket, offered by the well-wisher.
And , enhanced by the power of the rings, they succeeded in doing the great deeds, not aware fact that such handy devise have a hidden side-effects.
Imagine a magnitude of dread and hoplessness the greatest and smartest Lords of Numenor must felt upon realizing in what kind of inescapable trap they had been caught! :eek: :(

[Gordis]

I agree with most points in the posts above.

As we know, the Rings give power "according to the measure of each possessor"(LOTR) and "lead the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith." (L # 212)
.

IMO, most Men and some Elves (like Galadriel, Feanor, or Celebrimbor) not being "evil" were vulnerable to the Rings, just because of their inherent lust for power.

Great was the anger of Ar-Pharazôn at these tidings, and as he pondered long in secret, his heart was filled with the desire of power unbounded and the sole dominion of his will. And he determined without counsel of the Valar, or the aid of any wisdom but his own, that the title of King of Men he would himself claim, and would compel Sauron to become his vassal and his servant; for in his pride he deemed that no king should ever arise so mighty as to vie with the Heir of Eärendil.
I guess, the future nazgul were of similar character.

Men were the most vulnerable to the Rings, and the most vulnerable of Men were the Numenoreans, especially those of the Royal Line, not because they were greedy or evil, but just because of their nature.: UT, Aldarion and Erendis: Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other. The long life that they were granted deceives them, and they dally in the world, children in mind, until age finds them – and then many only forsake play out of doors for play in their houses. They turn their play into great matters and great matters into play. They would be craftsmen and loremasters and heroes all at once; and women to them are but fires on the hearth – for others to tend, until they are tired of play in the eve-ning. All things were made for their service: hills are for quarries, river to furnish water or to turn wheels, trees for boards, women for their body's need, or if fair to adorn their table and hearth; and children to be teased when nothing else is to do – but they would as soon play with their hounds' whelps. To all they are gracious and kind, merry as larks in the morning (if the sun shines); for they are never wrathful if they can avoid it. Men should be gay, they hold, generous as the rich, giving away what they do not need. Anger they show only when they become aware, suddenly, that there are other wills in the world beside their own. Then they will be as ruthless as the seawind if anything dare to withstand them.

Why hobbits were more or less immune to the Rings? I don't think it was anything "biological"- a feature of their hroa, no, it was because of their minds. Simply, unlike Men, Power and Domination were the last things Hobbits wanted.

Look at Gollum, already corrupted by the Ring, which he had for 500 years.
'No, sweet one. See, my precious: if we has it, then we can escape, even from Him, eh? Perhaps we grows very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Sméagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day; fresh from the sea. Most Precious Gollum! Must have it. We wants it, we wants it, we wants it! ' Really, can the Ring seriously "work" on someone whose wildest dream s to eat fish every day?

And here is Sam's dream of a garden:
Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dûr. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be.
.

Frodo initially was much like Smeagol or Sam, but, during the Quest, he became more vulnerable to the Ring's appeal. Saruman was right: Frodo, has "grown" and became "wise and cruel" Not really "cruel", of course, but, indeed, his mind became more Man-like, than Hobbit-like when he started to " train his will to the domination of others".
I think it was a very important moment in Frodo's character development when he unconsciously used the Power of the Ring not just for invisibility, but for something the Ring was really made for.
For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds. Gollum raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his knees. Cawing Gollum like Frodo did had a heavy price to pay later: he claimed the Ring instead of destroying it.

[Zilbanne]

Why hobbits were more or less immune to the Rings? I don't think it was anything "biological"- a feature of their hroa, no, it was because of their minds. Simply, unlike Men, Power and Domination were the last things Hobbits wanted.

Look at Gollum, already corrupted by the Ring, which he had for 500 years.
Really, can the Ring seriously "work" on someone whose wildest dream s to eat fish every day?

And here is Sam's dream of a garden:

.

Frodo initially was much like Smeagol or Sam, but, during the Quest, he became more vulnerable to the Ring's appeal. Saruman was right: Frodo, has "grown" and became "wise and cruel" Not really "cruel", of course, but, indeed, his mind became more Man-like, than Hobbit-like when he started to " train his will to the domination of others".
I think it was a very important moment in Frodo's character development when he unconsciously used the Power of the Ring not just for invisibility, but for something the Ring was really made for.
Cawing Gollum like Frodo did had a heavy price to pay later: he clamed the Ring instead of destroying it.


Gordis, I like what you've found and discussed about Smeagol and Sam and Frodo, having a significantly different nature in comparision to the human kings, so that their individual character as wraiths wouldn't be the same as in powerful humans with royal position. The hobbits wanted mostly simply things, fish for smeagol, better gardens for Sam. Frodo wanted things ultimately to be peaceful, like in The Shire. He desired this peacefullness and wanted to get back to it even when having to fight the influence of the ring inside himself. Even in his power over Gollum though, Frodo attemted to use the ring, to get control so that eventually he save the essential peaceful life that he had known in The shire. Although that life because of the power of the ring could no longer fully be his ever again. In his will to dominate Gollum in order to achieve his, there was still some thought of The Shire and that kind of life there, inside him. At mount doom though even Frodo couldn't hold his own desires apart from the will of the ring. Without Gollum there, Frodo's choice may have been similar to Isildur's?

[ecthelion]

I don't think it was anything "biological"- a feature of their hroa,

Doesn't sound very JRR to me, more like CS Lewis?

[Zilbanne]

Doesn't sound very JRR to me, more like CS Lewis?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you elaborate please?

[Landroval]

he started to " train his will to the domination of others".
I am not sure what you could possibly reffer to.
Cawing Gollum like Frodo did had a heavy price to pay later: he clamed the Ring instead of destroying it.
Treating Gollum with pitty saved Frodo and the world, according to letter #181.

[Forkbeard]

Forkbeard, is there any disagreement between us? :confused:

NOne. I should have edited the "but" out, I was just adding to what you said.

I am not sure if all of them were greedy and such, before becoming wraiths; sure, Gandalf descrived them as "proud and great", but we also have the following statements:
and:
which imply that there were some nuances in how evil each one was. There is also a refference in letter #183 about all tyrannts beginning well, and Elrond states that nothing is evil in the begining.

True, it doesn't mean that they were so in the beginning, but on the other hand how did Sauron get them to take his rings unless he promised them something they wanted: renown, glory, wealth, power? Saruman wasn't evil in the beginning either, but he was easily tempted by power--perhaps in the beginning the power to set things "right", but that quickly changed. I'd say that that is the analogy with the Nine as well, the promise that they will be able to setting things "better" (Sam's gardens, Frodo's peace, Gollum's fish and recognition, Saruman's temptation of Gandalf, Gandalf's statements to Frodo), but that promise always implies that it is MY vision of better that I will have the power to impose, MY=the temptee. So while originally the 9 may have been benevolent and well intentioned, the very fact that they accepted the ring from Sauron based on his promises shows a moral failure (one that most of us fail).

[Forkbeard]

I am not sure what you could possibly reffer to.

Treating Gollum with pitty saved Frodo and the world, according to letter #181.
Yes, but I think what Gordis was referring to was Frodo's taking the ring at the Cracks, "It is mine!"

[Landroval]

So while originally the 9 may have been benevolent and well intentioned, the very fact that they accepted the ring from Sauron based on his promises shows a moral failure (one that most of us fail).
I agree; a sort of 'moral failure' was involved in the creation of the power rings also.
Yes, but I think what Gordis was referring to was Frodo's taking the ring at the Cracks, "It is mine!"

As she liked to argue previously, the claiming itself was almost inevitable, and Frodo's past behaviour lead to no evil, but to good.

[Gordis]

I am not sure what you could possibly reffer to.
I was referring to this:
Not on it. Swear by it, if you will. For you know where it is. Yes, you know, Sméagol. It is before you.'
For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds. Gollum raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his knees.
[...]
You will never get it back. In the last need, Sméagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Sméagol!'
Sam looked at his master with approval, but also with surprise: there was a look in his face and a tone in his voice that he had not known before. It had always been a notion of his that the kindness of dear Mr. Frodo was of such a high degree that it must imply a fair measure of blindness. Of course, he also firmly held the incompatible belief that Mr. Frodo was the wisest person in the world (with the possible exception of Old Mr. Bilbo and of Gandalf). Gollum in his own way, and with much more excuse as his acquaintance was much briefer, may have made a similar mistake, confusing kindness and blindness. At any rate this speech abashed and terrified him. He grovelled on the ground and could speak no clear words but nice master.


Yes, being a kind hobbit, Frodo felt pity for Gollum, but he cowed him nonetheless, as a Ringlord would. I wouldn't be surprised if "love" Gollum felt for Frodo, were also the Ring's doing. Of course, Frodo's mental power permitted him to dominate only weak creatures, like Gollum, but still he fancied that in time he could dominate even a ringwraith:

And as he waited, he felt, more urgent than ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring. But great as the pressure was, he felt no inclination now to yield to it. He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king – not yet.
Frodo's failure at the Cracks didn't come unheralded. Here were steps leading to it.

There was a great change in Frodo during the Quest. Saruman was wise enough to notice it:
Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. ‘You have grown, Halfling,’ he said. ‘Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. You have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.’
Why would Saruman feel respect for Frodo? For his high moral qualities? For his love of peace? No, he respected the qualities of a ringlord the hobbit had acquired.

And Landroval, why are you sure that the future nazgul knew what sort of rings they were being given and, especially that it was Sauron who was giving it to them? He could have come in any fair guise and told anything about the rings...

[Landroval]

Yes, being a kind hobbit, Frodo felt pity for Gollum, but he cowed him nonetheless
I see; what would you suggest under the circumstances? That he should pet Gollum on the back and assure him nothing was wrong with his criminal tendencies?

Whatever threats he uttered were simply meant to restore a balance of relations, necessary for the fulfillment of the quest; the fact that Frodo restrained himself to doing only that is a sing of superiority on the moral plane, but also of 'folly', on the rational plane.

Gollum loved the ring a lot, he may also have loved Frodo, but to say that his will was dominated by Frodo is a huge leap from that.
as a Ringlord would
Are you saying that Frodo mastered the ring?
Why would Saruman feel respect for Frodo? For his high moral qualities?
Yes, I would say so; Saruman still had great insight. Even the name choice I believe wasn't accidental:
Frodo is a real name from the Germanic tradition. Its Old English form was Froda. Its obvious connexion is with the old word frod meaning etymologically 'wise by experience', but it had mythological connexions with legends of the Golden Age in the North
I would say there is a sort of a theme in LotR; as Aragorn says of Merry in the Houses of Healing:
His grief he will not forget; but it will not darken his heart, it will teach him wisdom.
Pretty much the same applies with Frodo.

[Landroval]

And Landroval, why are you sure that the future nazgul knew what sort of rings they were being given and, especially that it was Sauron who was giving it to them?
Where did I imply such a thing?

[Gordis]

Where did I imply such a thing?
Sorry, it was Forkbeard, not you. Post # 54.

[Gordis]

I see; what would you suggest under the circumstances? That he should pet Gollum on the back and assure him nothing was wrong with his criminal tendencies?
I an not suggesting anything. He had to do it, and he did do it, but there was a price. :)

Are you saying that Frodo mastered the ring??
I am saying no such thing. If he HAD mastered the Ring, he would have cowed anyone, save Sauron himself. As it is, he only had power over poor Gollum.

Saruman still had great insight.That he had. He saw immediately the change in Frodo. There are some things that Saruman respected, but not those you imply: he had respect and admiration for Sauron, but not for Gandalf and Co. :p

[Landroval]

I an not suggesting anything. He had to do it, and he did do it, but there was a price.
The fact that he claimed the ring had nothing to do with his behaviour towards Gollum. Frodo would still have claimed the ring, even if there was no previous threat to Gollum. He was 'doomed' to do so, according to letter #181.
I am saying no such thing. If he HAD mastered the Ring, he would have cowed anyone, save Sauron himself. As it is, he only had power over poor Gollum.
If you are not saying such a thing, why do you missleadingly call him a Ringlord?? And if he mastered the ring, why wouldn't he threaten Sauron?

And what sort of power did he have over Gollum, if it didn't change him one bit in his purposes? Gollum broke even his oath by the ring not to attack Frodo. Sure, Frodo was stronger than a a 4 centuries wreak, we can find some affinity between them and their destinies, but I don't see Gollum as dominated by anything else than his hunger for the ring. Indeed, Tolkien speculated that, if it wasn't for Sam's rather harsh treatment of Gollum, he would have sacrificed himself for Frodo - but that would be out of love.
That he had. He saw immediately the change in Frodo. There are some things that Saruman respected, but not those you imply: he had respect and admiration for Sauron, but not for Gandalf and Co.
He didn't see only it, he experienced it first hand; Frodo twice saves his life that day, and the second time was when Saruman tried to kill him. Frodo displays an unshakeable faith in restoration of Saruman; one could also point out that there may be some truth in Saruman's threat that if the hobbits kill him, the Shire will be cursed - it was Frodo who had the resolve to restrain the hobbits. He displays enough moral superiority, wisdom, faith, authority - and authority at least Saruman could admire.

[CAB]

That he had. He saw immediately the change in Frodo. There are some things that Saruman respected, but not those you imply: he had respect and admiration for Sauron, but not for Gandalf and Co. :p
I agree and disagree with you here. It is implied in The Hunt for the Ring that Saruman did have some respect for Gandalf, specifically for his power and “good fortune”. I would guess he had similar feelings for others with these qualities (mostly power, I suppose), primarily Galadriel probably, who he seems to have feared.

But I think you right that he was unimpressed by strength of moral character.

Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. ‘You have grown, Halfling,’ he said. ‘Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. You have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you!
Wisdom may be considered tied to strong morals (but probably not in Saruman’s mind), however cruelty is absolutely opposed to it. Saruman’s evil and petty nature had clouded his vision. He didn’t really understand Frodo.

He displays enough moral superiority, wisdom, faith, authority - and authority at least Saruman could admire.
I would guess that you are right that Saruman could admire authority. But if he saw much authority in Frodo, then he was mistaken. It would seem that the only people in the Shire who placed great weight on Frodo’s words were Sam, Merry, and Pippin.


The fact that he claimed the ring had nothing to do with his behaviour towards Gollum. Frodo would still have claimed the ring, even if there was no previous threat to Gollum. He was 'doomed' to do so, according to letter #181.

I an not suggesting anything. He had to do it, and he did do it, but there was a price. :)
I agree that Frodo would have claimed the Ring regardless of his actions towards Gollum. But, I think that Gordis is right that there was a price. Not so much in his refusal to destroy the Ring, but rather his change in attitude later.

The Ring’s main power was to give it’s holder control over other wills. The Ring clearly scarred Frodo. So why wouldn’t it mark Frodo in this way?

Frodo seems a bit ‘high and mighty’ after he first returns to the Shire. This isn’t a terrible thing, but it is a change in him. There are several instances of this. Here are a few:

To the discomfiture of the Shirriffs Frodo and his companions all roared with laughter. ‘Don’t be absurd!’ said Frodo. ‘I am going where I please, and in my own time. I happen to be going to Bag End on business, but if you insist on going too, well that is your affair.’

‘All the same,’ said Frodo to all those who stood near, ‘I wish for no killing; not even of the ruffians, unless it must be done, to prevent them from hurting hobbits.’

‘Wormtongue!’ called Frodo. ‘You need not follow him. I know of no evil you have done to me. You can have rest and food here for a while, until you are stronger and can go your own ways.’



If you are not saying such a thing, why do you missleadingly call him a Ringlord??
Well, I at least wasn’t mislead. Gordis never called Frodo a ringlord. She simply said that he acted as a ringlord could be expected to act. I could make the observation that a small dog acted like a lion without meaning that the dog is a lion.

Yes, being a kind hobbit, Frodo felt pity for Gollum, but he cowed him nonetheless, as a Ringlord would.

[Landroval]

But I think you right that he was unimpressed by strength of moral character.
I don't think that he considered the fulfilled Quest a trifle; and it was moral strength that made it possible.
Wisdom may be considered tied to strong morals (but probably not in Saruman’s mind), however cruelty is absolutely opposed to it. Saruman’s evil and petty nature had clouded his vision. He didn’t really understand Frodo.
It depends; one can have a certain amount of wisedom AND a certain amount of cruelty too, as long as neither are developed fully.
It would seem that the only people in the Shire who placed great weight on Frodo’s words were Sam, Merry, and Pippin.
I disagree; most, if not all, of the hobbits wanted to kill Saruman, but they still obeyed "Frodo's command"; and, as it looked, he probably would have averted Wormtongue's death, had he had the time to speak his command.
Not so much in his refusal to destroy the Ring, but rather his change in attitude later.
That may be true; Tolkien predicted he would be "ennobled and rarefied by the achievement of the great quest"; he has more insight, due to "suffering and experience (and possibly the Ring itself)"; he may even be less interested in how others would second guess his actions - after all, he did went to the bowels of hell (and was honored by the greatest heroes of the time). Others too may be impressed by his history, or at least by the changes in him. His aura of sanctity, if I may say so, could also command respect; but domination of others' wills is a far cry from any of these.

[Gordis]

The fact that he claimed the ring had nothing to do with his behaviour towards Gollum. Frodo would still have claimed the ring, even if there was no previous threat to Gollum
The Ring was slowly corrupting Frodo. The way he frightened Gollum was a big step in the process. The Ring's grip over Frodo became stronger.

I agree that Frodo would have claimed the Ring regardless of his actions towards Gollum. But, I think that Gordis is right that there was a price. Not so much in his refusal to destroy the Ring, but rather his change in attitude later. Yes, I agree. Once he sampled the sweetness of being a Ringlord, even if only for Gollum, he could never forget the feeling. The world became empty without the Ring.

If you are not saying such a thing, why do you missleadingly call him a Ringlord?? And if he mastered the ring, why wouldn't he threaten Sauron?
As for the first part of this question, CAB has answered it for me (Thank you, CAB! :) ). As for the second part, I refer you to the letter #246: Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn.

And what sort of power did he have over Gollum, if it didn't change him one bit in his purposes?
No power of Love, surely. Only the oath made on the Ring kept Gollum from trying to murder the hobbits in their sleep during the long journey. For Gollum (and for Gollum only) Frodo became a Ringlord. Yes, a cat is no lion, but it is enough of a predator for a mouse. And his broken oath on the Ring led him into the fire. That is how I see it.

Tolkien speculated that, if it wasn't for Sam's rather harsh treatment of Gollum, he would have sacrificed himself for Frodo - but that would be out of love.
That would be out of love for the Precious, IMHO, not for Frodo. Tolkien is speculating over his own text in this letter. But the text doesn't necessarily convey the same impression as Tolkien wished it to do.

Frodo displays an unshakeable faith in restoration of Saruman
Why do you think so? I guess he spared Saruman as a part of his policy of no more killing.

It is implied in The Hunt for the Ring that Saruman did have some respect for Gandalf, specifically for his power and “good fortune”. I would guess he had similar feelings for others with these qualities (mostly power, I suppose), primarily Galadriel probably, who he seems to have feared.
You are right. Saruman did have a grudging respect for Gandalf's power and good fortune and he envied his Ring. But the one he admired was Sauron.
So, what qualities did Saruman come to respect in Frodo? His newly acquired "wisdom" and good fortune - really it was extremely good luck that the quest didn't fail miserably.

Wisdom may be considered tied to strong morals (but probably not in Saruman’s mind), however cruelty is absolutely opposed to it. Saruman’s evil and petty nature had clouded his vision. He didn’t really understand Frodo.
Wisdom for Saruman equalled "cunning", I think. I agree that he didn't understand Frodo's selfishness, as he never understood Gandalf's. But what he fully understood, was Frodo's residual lust for the Ring and his deep wound with it gone. After all, he made a clear prophesy about Frodo's fate:
You have grown, Halfling,’ he said. ‘Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. You have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.’

[Butterbeer]

ringbearers recognise other ringbearers and can see their rings right?they cannot be witheld from other ringbearers ...

saruman had made a lesser ring...

Yet he doesn't see one of 'the three' on gandalf?
or was it only the bearer of the one that other rings could not be hidden from?

[Gordis]

ringbearers recognise other ringbearers and can see their rings right?they cannot be witheld from other ringbearers ...

saruman had made a lesser ring...

Yet he doesn't see one of 'the three' on gandalf?
or was it only the bearer of the one that other rings could not be hidden from?
In UT it is written that Saruman knew about Gandalf's ring and envied it.


But there are worse things. How could Gandalf bearing Narya, NOT understand that Bilbo had the One?

[CAB]

I remember that Olmer all but proved that Gandalf did know that it was the One, almost immediately after Bilbo revealed it to Gandalf. I can’t recall where he said this, but the evidence was pretty much undeniable. It seems this was just a slip by Tolkien to me, but if we look at things from a story-internal perspective...

[Forkbeard]

IWhy hobbits were more or less immune to the Rings? I don't think it was anything "biological"- a feature of their hroa, no, it was because of their minds. Simply, unlike Men, Power and Domination were the last things Hobbits wanted.

Hobbits weren't immune to the Ring. Gollum killed over it, killed his best friend. Bilbo lied to his friends about it almost immediately and displayed odd behaviors, including a possessiveness, an avarice even, for the "precious" Ring. Frodo was able to "resist" because he had never worn it up until the fateful moment at Bree. That the 3 hobbits weren't going around with the Ring seeking domination, at least not until they entered Mordor, indicates the insularity of the hobbit mind rather than anything else, but hardly indicates "immunity."


Frodo initially was much like Smeagol or Sam, but, during the Quest, he became more vulnerable to the Ring's appeal. Saruman was right: Frodo, has "grown" and became "wise and cruel" Not really "cruel", of course, but, indeed, his mind became more Man-like, than Hobbit-like when he started to " train his will to the domination of others".

Oh, I don't know about "Man-like". Is wisdom indeed a "human" possession? In Tolkien's world it is indeed the elves and Gandalf who have wisdom--Frodo perhaps has beomce more "elvish" in outlook, a vestige, a sign, of the light of the Undying Lands.


I think it was a very important moment in Frodo's character development when he unconsciously used the Power of the Ring not just for invisibility, but for something the Ring was really made for.
Cawing Gollum like Frodo did had a heavy price to pay later: he claimed the Ring instead of destroying it.

This is an edited comment. I agree, he does threaten to use the Ring to exact the promise from Gollum. And while he certainly has to do something, nonetheless, that this is what he chooses to do, and Sam's altered vision of Frodo for a moment, let's us see what is slowly happening to Frodo. No delusions of grandeur or dreams of conquering the world or anything like that, so we can't read too much into it. But it is nonetheless a step down that road.

[Forkbeard]

I was referring to this:


Yes, being a kind hobbit, Frodo felt pity for Gollum, but he cowed him nonetheless, as a Ringlord would. I wouldn't be surprised if "love" Gollum felt for Frodo, were also the Ring's doing.
Well, first, with Landroval I object to the term "ringlord". Nor am I certain that we can say that that moment Frodo is acting like a ringlord in any way. He's acting very much the hobbit, a hobbit who is taking a step down a deadly path, but a mere hobbit nonetheless. And I doubt very much that the Ring, given its nature, would engender love, or know what "love" was. I'll have to look it up, but as I recall there's a letter or two that indicate that Gollum's love for Frodo was genuine.


Of course, Frodo's mental power permitted him to dominate only weak creatures, like Gollum, but still he fancied that in time he could dominate even a ringwraith:

Good eyes...I had forgotten about this quote. But then this is MUCH farther down the road, much closer to Mordor, and the temptation is becoming greater, physically weighing him down. So certainly this is part of the progression, but really indicates nothing about the original scene with Gollum.


There was a great change in Frodo during the Quest. Saruman was wise enough to notice it:

Why would Saruman feel respect for Frodo? For his high moral qualities? For his love of peace? No, he respected the qualities of a ringlord the hobbit had acquired.{/QUOTE]
So, respect for life, hopes in redemption even after all that Saruman had done, are qualities of a Lord of the Rings? Only 3 "ringlords" exhibited those qualities: Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf. Sauron, the 9 Nazgul, and the dwarves who had had rings certainly didn't.

[QUOTE]And Landroval, why are you sure that the future nazgul knew what sort of rings they were being given and, especially that it was Sauron who was giving it to them? He could have come in any fair guise and told anything about the rings...

Well, unless Sauron changed his personality for the men....we have merely to look into Sauron's promises to the elves in the Second Age, to the Numenoreans, and later in LoTR to the dwarves to discern the kind of promises he was likely to make to the kings of men to whom he would give rings, token of his friendship. They needn't know it was Sauron giving them, or know him to be evil, but even in fair form, Sauron's fair words had discernible foulness underneath that the observant noted. The 9 were they so inclined to goodness failed to be observant.

[Forkbeard]

Whatever threats he uttered were simply meant to restore a balance of relations, necessary for the fulfillment of the quest; the fact that Frodo restrained himself to doing only that is a sing of superiority on the moral plane, but also of 'folly', on the rational plane.
True, but he used the threat of wearing the Ring and using its power to command Gollum to do himself in to achieve that detente. So as I said in another post, its a step on the path to the failure at the Cracks, but only the first step.

Gollum loved the ring a lot, he may also have loved Frodo, but to say that his will was dominated by Frodo is a huge leap from that.

Agreed!~

[Landroval]

For Gollum (and for Gollum only) Frodo became a Ringlord.
I give up; you seem to have a very personal interpretation of what a Ringlord is, which is contrary to the very quotes you give.
As for the second part, I refer you to the letter #246:
Rewind please. You stated:"If he HAD mastered the Ring, he would have cowed anyone, save Sauron himself. " Now, to address your supposition, I asked: if he had mastered the ring, why wouldn't he threaten Sauron? That letter simply says that no mortal could master the ring; it doesn't say that should a mortal master the ring, he wouldn't threaten Sauron.
Only the oath made on the Ring kept Gollum from trying to murder the hobbits in their sleep during the long journey.
...
That would be out of love for the Precious, IMHO, not for Frodo. Tolkien is speculating over his own text in this letter. But the text doesn't necessarily convey the same impression as Tolkien wished it to do.
I disagree:
For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is (in a sense) wasted.
Why do you think so?
I say it was his wisdom, enhance by the trials and sufferings; Gandalf too behaved in a similar manner, offering Saruman a chance.

[Landroval]

or was it only the bearer of the one that other rings could not be hidden from?
Yes, that is true:
And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.
however, according to the same source, even the elves became aware of Sauron and his evil thang.
I agree, he does threaten to use the Ring to exact the promise from Gollum.
I disagree; it is Gollum who requests to swear _on_ the ring. I don't think there is any mention of Frodo even touching it. Frodo realised that Gollum just wanted to "see it and touch it".
Sam's altered vision of Frodo for a moment, let's us see what is slowly happening to Frodo. No delusions of grandeur or dreams of conquering the world or anything like that, so we can't read too much into it. But it is nonetheless a step down that road.
Yes, Frodo isn't immune to the corruption of the ring, that much I agree.

[Gordis]

So, respect for life, hopes in redemption even after all that Saruman had done, are qualities of a Lord of the Rings? Only 3 "ringlords" exhibited those qualities: Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf. Sauron, the 9 Nazgul, and the dwarves who had had rings certainly didn't.
Frodo did have respect for life etc. but I am saying that it were NOT those qualities that Saruman admired. He respected cunning and cruelty, and thought he saw them in Frodo. Same in Gandalf he respected cunning and "good luck", but not other qualities. Sauron had none of "respect for life and hopes in redemption", still Saruman admired him and tried to emulate him.


Well, unless Sauron changed his personality for the men....we have merely to look into Sauron's promises to the elves in the Second Age, to the Numenoreans, and later in LoTR to the dwarves to discern the kind of promises he was likely to make to the kings of men to whom he would give rings, token of his friendship. They needn't know it was Sauron giving them, or know him to be evil, but even in fair form, Sauron's fair words had discernible foulness underneath that the observant noted. The 9 were they so inclined to goodness failed to be observant.
Discernible foulness? Well, then ALL the Mirdain, (and a good part of them were Calaquendi Elves, not mere men) failed to see this foulness. Only Galadriel mistrusted him, but Tolkien didn't give an exact reason for this mistrust. Mostly, I think, it was that she couldn't remember any "Aulendil" among Aule's followers.

As for the Numenoreans during Sauron's stay in the island, they did trust him, though they knew full well his true identity.

The dwarves at Erebor didn't believe the promises of the messenger, because they knew that he came from Mordor - it was no secret.

Now, in case of the future nazgul, he could have come in any fair guise - as an Elf (was it easy to tell an incarnate Maia from an Elf? - next to impossible for a human, I think).
He could have told them anything: for instance that he was an Elf, sent by Gil-Galad and who wished to give one of the Rings to the King of Men for safekeeping. Where is the "discernible foulness"?

[ecthelion]

I don't think it was anything "biological"- a feature of their hroa
Gordis, where did you take the word "hroa" from?

[Gordis]

Gordis, where did you take the word "hroa" from?
"fëa" and "hröa" are terms used for "soul" and " body" in Tolkien's latest writings

fëa, pl. fëar 'soul, indwelling spirit, of an incarnate being' (MR:349,470). Also cf. WJ:405.
hröa, pl. hröar 'body (of an incarnate being)' (MR:350,470). Also cf. WJ:405.
(Editorial glossary to the Ósanwe-kenta: "MR" is Morgoth's Ring. "WJ" - War of Jewels)

Here is from Myths Transformed:
On earth the Quendi suffered no sickness, and the health of their bodies was supported by the might of the longeval fear. But their bodies, being of the stuff of Arda, were nonetheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longevity of the Quendi was derived primarily from their fëar, whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda until its end. Therefore, after the vitality of the hröa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fëa, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the fëa as it were consumed the hröa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it.
But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the hröar of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the hröar aged only apace with the fëar, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension.

[Forkbeard]

ringbearers recognise other ringbearers and can see their rings right?they cannot be witheld from other ringbearers ...

saruman had made a lesser ring...

Yet he doesn't see one of 'the three' on gandalf?
or was it only the bearer of the one that other rings could not be hidden from?
I don't think we know whether your first statement is true. We know Sauron, wearing the One Ring sees all others. We know that Celebrimbor was aware of Sauron when the latter put the One Ring on and that he was evil, and so hid the rings. And we know the Ringbearer once he has seen the Eye in Galadriel's pool can now see Galadriel's ring, though he hasn't previously perceived it, or Gandalf's, or Eldrond's. We don't know that the Nine and the 7 acted in the same way. So I think its something of a disconnect to think that Saruman's ring would give him the ability to discern other rings unless he successfully made a ring designed to give him that ability.

[Forkbeard]

In UT it is written that Saruman knew about Gandalf's ring and envied it.


But there are worse things. How could Gandalf bearing Narya, NOT understand that Bilbo had the One?

Because unlike Sauron, Bilbo didn't use it: Bilbo was effected by it (turned invisible).

[Forkbeard]

Frodo did have respect for life etc. but I am saying that it were NOT those qualities that Saruman admired. He respected cunning and cruelty, and thought he saw them in Frodo. Same in Gandalf he respected cunning and "good luck", but not other qualities. Sauron had none of "respect for life and hopes in redemption", still Saruman admired him and tried to emulate him.
I don't believe that the context fits your interpretation here. Saruman speaks these words AFTER Frodo has insisted to his fellow hobbits that Saruman not be killed, even after Saruman just tried to kill Frodo: and Frodo says..."He is fallen and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it." Then Saruman responds. There is no cruelty here, nor cunning. In fact, the charge of cruelty is explained in Saruman's next sentence: "You have robbed my revenge of sweetness." I'm afraid I just don't see Saruman here seeing Frodo as a smaller version of himself or Sauron exhibiting cunning and cruelty. I think he sees a wise hobbit and is surprised by it.



Discernible foulness? Well, then ALL the Mirdain, (and a good part of them were Calaquendi Elves, not mere men) failed to see this foulness. Only Galadriel mistrusted him, but Tolkien didn't give an exact reason for this mistrust. Mostly, I think, it was that she couldn't remember any "Aulendil" among Aule's followers.

Yes, indeed, and isn't that part of the point of the story (larger story that is?)

As for the Numenoreans during Sauron's stay in the island, they did trust him, though they knew full well his true identity.
And this works in your argument's favor, how? It proves my point precisely: for that trust in Sauron is what caused Numenor's fall and the reshaping of the world.

The dwarves at Erebor didn't believe the promises of the messenger, because they knew that he came from Mordor - it was no secret.
Not entirely true. Were that the sole cause they would not have delayed answering three times. Dain replies "I say neither yay nor nay. I must consider this message and what it means under its fair cloak." And so the dwarves debated and eventually send representitives to Elrond to gain wisdom on how to decide. So it isn't simply disbelief and distrust because the message and messenger are from Mordor.

Now, in case of the future nazgul, he could have come in any fair guise - as an Elf (was it easy to tell an incarnate Maia from an Elf? - next to impossible for a human, I think).
He could have told them anything: for instance that he was an Elf, sent by Gil-Galad and who wished to give one of the Rings to the King of Men for safekeeping. Where is the "discernible foulness"?
Sure, he could have told them anything. Yet every time we find Sauron appearing in fair guise, there is always something that gives him away to the discerning....

[Gordis]

Hobbits weren't immune to the Ring. Gollum killed over it, killed his best friend. Bilbo lied to his friends about it almost immediately and displayed odd behaviors, including a possessiveness, an avarice even, for the "precious" Ring. Frodo was able to "resist" because he had never worn it up until the fateful moment at Bree. That the 3 hobbits weren't going around with the Ring seeking domination, at least not until they entered Mordor, indicates the insularity of the hobbit mind rather than anything else, but hardly indicates "immunity."

Perhaps "immunity" was not an appropriate word. But still, I believe, hobbits were more resistant to temptation than Men, Elves and Maiar. If not, Gandalf or Aragorn would have carried the Ring themselves. Frodo was able to resist wearing and wielding the Ring even when he knew that it was the Ruling Ring. Gandalf couldn't do the same. Denethor believed he could keep the Ring hidden, yet Gandalf said he didn't trust him with it, he didn't trust even himself. But he trusted Frodo.

Oh, I don't know about "Man-like". Is wisdom indeed a "human" possession? In Tolkien's world it is indeed the elves and Gandalf who have wisdom--Frodo perhaps has beomce more "elvish" in outlook, a vestige, a sign, of the light of the Undying Lands.
The "Elvish" outlook was certainly mentioned. Why a Morgul wound brings about "more elvish" outlook is a mystery. There was some hint of translucency about the hobbit. I should say "more wraith-ish" would be more appropriate description.

And I doubt very much that the Ring, given its nature, would engender love
The One ring contains all the powers of the other Rings.
I interpret it this way: it could give invisibility and turn a human into a wraith - like the 9, it could make a dwarf greedy - like the 7, and, if wielded properly, it could "kindle hearts" as Narya and do whatever Nenya and Vilya were able to do. Galadriel says: In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!
We can't say that, before she got the One, Galadriel was universally loved, was she? So she refers to the power of the One, IMO.

That letter simply says that no mortal could master the ring; it doesn't say that should a mortal master the ring, he wouldn't threaten Sauron. The letter is about a creature (Frodo/Aragorn/Gandalf/Galadriel) trying to withhold the Ring from Sauron in a direct confrontation. It is supposed that the person in question is wielding the One. Would he be able to beat Sauron? "Master him" means master Sauron, not the Ring.
L # 246: Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even AragornOf the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

As for the Numenoreans during Sauron's stay in the island, they did trust him, though they knew full well his true identity.And this works in your argument's favor, how? It proves my point precisely: for that trust in Sauron is what caused Numenor's fall and the reshaping of the world.
Read back, please. Your point in this argument was not what you say now, it was this:
Well, unless Sauron changed his personality for the men....we have merely to look into Sauron's promises to the elves in the Second Age, to the Numenoreans, and later in LoTR to the dwarves to discern the kind of promises he was likely to make to the kings of men to whom he would give rings, token of his friendship. They needn't know it was Sauron giving them, or know him to be evil, but even in fair form, Sauron's fair words had discernible foulness underneath that the observant noted. The 9 were they so inclined to goodness failed to be observant You gave three examples to support your point: that Sauron's foulness was perceivable under his fair guise. I've discussed your examples and I have pointed out that the cases of the Numenoreans and the Dwarves differ significantly from the cases of the Mirdain and the future Nazgul. The Numenoreans and the Dwarves knew full well they were dealing with Sauron, while the Mirdain and the future Nazgul didn't. Among the Mirdain, NO ONE doubted Sauron. Why would you want the nazgul to be more suspicious?

Not entirely true. Were that the sole cause they would not have delayed answering three times. Dain replies "I say neither yay nor nay. I must consider this message and what it means under its fair cloak." And so the dwarves debated and eventually send representitives to Elrond to gain wisdom on how to decide. So it isn't simply disbelief and distrust because the message and messenger are from Mordor.
I don't agree- the Dwarves didn't believe the messenger from the start:
'Heavy have the hearts of our chieftains been since that night. We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old. Twice the messenger has returned, and has gone unanswered. The third and last time, so he says, is soon to come, before the ending of the year.
And only delayed the reply to gain more time:
'And so I have been sent at last by Dáin to warn Bilbo that he is sought by the Enemy, and to learn, if may be, why he desires this ring, this least of rings. Also we crave the advice of Elrond. For the Shadow grows and draws nearer. We discover that messengers have come also to King Brand in Dale, and that he is afraid. We fear that he may yield. Already war is gathering on his eastern borders. If we make no answer, the Enemy may move Men of his rule to assail King Brand, and Dáin also.'

Sure, he could have told them anything. Yet every time we find Sauron appearing in fair guise, there is always something that gives him away to the discerning....
When Sauron appeared in disguise in Ost-in Edhil there was nothing to give him away to the Mirdain. He was universally trusted. Even Galadriel had nothing definite against him. Why should there be anything to give him away when he spoke with the future nazgul?

[Landroval]

But still, I believe, hobbits were more resistant to temptation than Men, Elves and Maiar.
Yes; apparently, (at least) Frodo had the exact amount of power required:
Frodo was in such a position: an apparently complete trap: a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring's lure to power so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision.
Why a Morgul wound brings about "more elvish" outlook is a mystery. There was some hint of translucency about the hobbit
Even the elves 'fade', due to the marring of Melkor and the consumation of their hroa by their fea.
As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.
The letter is about a creature (Frodo/Aragorn/Gandalf/Galadriel) trying to withhold the Ring from Sauron in a direct confrontation. It is supposed that the person in question is wielding the One. Would he be able to beat Sauron?
Gordis, though you are correct in your clarification, you still owe us a proof that should Frodo master the ring, he wouldn't threaten Sauron.
Why would you want the nazgul to be more suspicious?
I doubt that at least the three great lords of Numenorean race didn't know who Sauron was; after all, at this time the numenoreans and Sauron were competitors in the race for middle-earth
He was universally trusted
No; in Lindon, the opposite was the case; and there were some, "few", of the other elves that heeded to the warnings about him.

[Gordis]

Even the elves 'fade', due to the marring of Melkor and the consumation of their hroa by their fea. So you think Frodo started to resemble a half-faded elf :eek: ?

Gordis, though you are correct in your clarification, you still owe us a proof that should Frodo master the ring, he wouldn't threaten Sauron.
I really give up: both of us (and half of the Moot) now know the accursed L #246 by heart. It says "Sauron wouldn't fear the Ring..". "Only one of equal stature (a maia, that is) could beat him in direct confrontation" "Of the Man no one ... and so on... bla bla bla". It has been quoted again and again in this very thread. What else do you want?

I doubt that at least the three great lords of Numenorean race didn't know who Sauron was; after all, at this time the numenoreans and Sauron were competitors in the race for middle-earth
Oh they would know ABOUT him all right, but hardly they would be able to RECOGNISE him in disguise. You think Celebrimbor didn't know about Sauron? But he failed to recognise him, even though the guy truthfully told him that he used to be a Maia of Aule. As I said, with Men, he could have passed for anybody, including Gil-Galad himself, or Elrond or what's not.
No; in Lindon, the opposite was the case; and there were some, "few", of the other elves that heeded to the warnings about him. Note, Sauron has never been in Lindon, so the Elves there only heard tales of Annatar. In his actual presence, ALL of the Mirdain DID believe him. Galadriel was the only one who met him personally and didn't believe him, and even she had nothing definite against him. I think, as with Saruman's persuasive voice, Annatar's actual presence mattered a lot. He was such a likeable, charming guy! :D

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I have nothing to add, just wanted to say:
I really give up: both of us (and half of the Moot) now know the accursed L #246 by heart. It says "Sauron wouldn't fear the Ring..". "Only one of equal stature (a maia, that is) could beat him in direct confrontation" "Of the Man no one ... and so on... bla bla bla". It has been quoted again and again in this very thread. What else do you want?
I come in here and read everything, even though I don't contribute :o , and I know it by heart now. :D

[Landroval]

In his actual presence, ALL of the Mirdain DID believe him.
Be that as it may, but the one thing that was stinking as hell was what he told them: to recreate Valinor in Middle-Earth; I would say this is the culmination of the pride of the elves (their "melkorism"), a "veiled attack on the gods" (cf letter #131). This blasphemy he proposed caused a sort of a "second fall" of the elves (same source). Not to mention that he instigated discord among the elves Eregion and Elrond, Gil-galad and Galadriel. How fishier can you get?
I come in here and read everything, even though I don't contribute , and I know it by heart now.
Attention class, professors Gordis now has the stand ;).

[CAB]

Attention class, professors Gordis now has the stand ;).
I personally have learned a great deal from Professor Gordis. Even if I don’t agree with everything she says (but I do with most), I will very gladly listen to/read any lecture she gives.

[Gordis]

Be that as it may, but the one thing that was stinking as hell was what he told them: to recreate Valinor in Middle-Earth; I would say this is the culmination of the pride of the elves (their "melkorism"), a "veiled attack on the gods" (cf letter #131). This blasphemy he proposed caused a sort of a "second fall" of the elves (same source). Not to mention that he instigated discord among the elves Eregion and Elrond, Gil-galad and Galadriel. How fishier can you get?

You are right, of course. But still it was not this "melkorism" that thoubled our fair Lady Galadriel, but some inconsistency in Annatar's backstory: she failed to remember Maia Aulendil from Valinor.
Even later, when she knew who was the source of that "teaching", she happily used her Ring to create a little "personal paradise on Earth" and to rule it.

Professor Gordis :) :D

Ahem, Thanks guys! :)

[Landroval]

No sarcasm intended on my part CAB, sorry if it is interpretable that way.

[CAB]

No problem, Landroval. I know that you wouldn't be arguing with Gordis if you didn't respect her opinion.

[Forkbeard]

Perhaps "immunity" was not an appropriate word. But still, I believe, hobbits were more resistant to temptation than Men, Elves and Maiar.

Ok, sure. I can go with that, more resistant because of less stature, less innate powerm less desire for power. Even Sam in his ring induced illusions wants beautful gardens everywhere, and Gollum wants fish, fresh fish from the sea, as we pointed out earlier. Compare those to Boromir's rambling for example, or Galadriel's description. So sure, I can live with saying the hobbits are more resistant to the temptation of the Ring.

But he trusted Frodo.
Well, he didn't have any choice, did he? Well, he could have wrested the Ring from Frodo by force, just as he could have from Bilbo, and left him a shattered husk with no mind left....but that wasn't Gandalf's way. So he had to trust Frodo (and he had more trust that that: as he said, Bilbo was MEANT to find it, and FRODO was MEANT to carry it, by a power outside the world (Eru) and if Frodo couldn't find a way, no one could. I. E. Gandalf had as much trust in the providential actions of Eru in the world in this matter as he did in Frodo.


The "Elvish" outlook was certainly mentioned. Why a Morgul wound brings about "more elvish" outlook is a mystery. There was some hint of translucency about the hobbit. I should say "more wraith-ish" would be more appropriate description.
I confess I'm a little lost here. I never said anything about the Morgul wound giving him a "more elvish" outlook, but he certainly has grown in wisdom; the wise are those who side with the elves in Tolkien's books, and with Gandalf.

Landroval has addressed the rest, but he neglected to mention Nimrodel, the perfect example of a fading elf.


The One ring contains all the powers of the other Rings.
But it also corrupts those powers--as you point to Galadreil, so will I.

I interpret it this way: it could give invisibility and turn a human into a wraith - like the 9, it could make a dwarf greedy - like the 7, and, if wielded properly, it could "kindle hearts" as Narya and do whatever Nenya and Vilya were able to do. Galadriel says:
We can't say that, before she got the One, Galadriel was universally loved, was she? So she refers to the power of the One, IMO.

Do you think this love is a positive thing? What good love causes despair? That is twisted love--and fits the definition of evil in Tolkien's world, and in his Catholic mind (cf. Augustine, evil is twisted good (not the absence of good!), and to make it whole it need to be untwisted. See Lewis' Out of the Silent Planet, the Bent Ones). So yes, the Ring can engender love, but an evil, destructive, despairing love that destroys. Not at all the kind of love that Gollum displays toward Frodo, or that Tolkien in the Letters says that Gollum had for Frodo. I. E. Not engendered by the Ring, but by Frodo's kindness and pity.


Read back, please. Your point in this argument was not what you say now, it was this:
You gave three examples to support your point: that Sauron's foulness was perceivable under his fair guise. I've discussed your examples and I have pointed out that the cases of the Numenoreans and the Dwarves differ significantly from the cases of the Mirdain and the future Nazgul.

I don't see my previous comments and the comments I'm making here as sufficiently different; from my point of view they are the same point, not wildly different ones as you seem to want them to be. Either you are misunderstanding me or I am not communicating well, and more likely some of both. So let me make another attempt: Sauron ALWAYS tries to appear (even when he cannot) fair, but his foulness may be perceived under that fair cloak and his true intent perceived. This happens every time. Let's take the examples again, because I think you are overlooking some things.

1) The Elves in the Second Age:

First, Sauron begins going about Middle Earth as Annatar; he comes to Lindon and is refused admittance because for some reason unstated Gilgalad and Elrond distrust him, and distrust him enough to send messengers to the other elven lands to warn them. Proves my point: Sauron's machinations are seen through in spite of the fair form.

Second, Sauron as Annatar hooks up with Celebrimor in Eregion. Just taking the statements in LoTR and in The Rings of Power, C took Sauron as he presented himself to be, and learned much from him and so made the 3. He however saw through Sauron the instant that Sauron put on the Ruling Ring (something that the wearers of the 9 and the 7 later would not be able to do), and so saw through Sauron's designs in spite of the fair form that Sauron presented himself--it took the One Ring to do it, but nonetheless happened.

During all this, Galadriel had misgivings about Sauron and counseled against him and while allowed in the kingdom, Sauron saw fit to work in secret. We aren't told why Galadriel had misgivings about Sauron, (you're take is stated in an unpublished, independent note in UT), but she did. Again, no matter how fair the form, Sauron may be seen through, even if one can not be specific about why.

Let's turn to the Numenoreans: When Ar-Pharazon went up against Sauron, Sauron offers no battle but rather comes in fair form and with fair words. He is taken to Numenor BECAUSE AR-PAHARZON IS NOT CONVINCED!! ("But Ar-Pharazon was not yet deceived...."). This unfortunately was exactly what Sauron wanted but it was achieved by Ar-Pharazon's doubt about him, not by his own devices. Sadly, it only took 3 years for Ar-Pharazon to be deceived and have Sauron as one of his chief advisors....but even then Sauron in his fair guise and his fair words were seen through: Amandil and the rest of the Faithful saw through him, and because they did, there came after the Downfall the Realms in Exile, led by Elendil. I. E. Once again, even knowing his identity, Sauron nonetheless comes with fair form and fair words and is seen through. That Ar-Pharazon was stupid enough to forget his initial mistrust doesn't change the fact that in the beginning he did in fact not trust Sauron. And his trust in Sauron was the undoing of Numenor--

Let's turn again to the dwarves in Book II of LoTR: The messenger says Sauron wished for their FRIENDSHIP, Rings as a sign of said, and even the promise of Moria in exchange for the "least of rings" Dain replies, "I must consider this message and what it means under its FAIR cloak." Do you think Dain is lieing, Gordis? T'would seem so. And underneath that fair cload were discerned "...that his words held both menace and deceit". Fair cloak discerned to hiding foulness. Yes, certainly, it was easier in this case for the dwarves to decide since they knew sauron, his character, etc, but the point is still the same: Sauron comes with fair cloak, but his evil intent may be seen under that cloak for those who are discerning; to those who aren't can only follow enslavement and disaster. In every case, there were those who saw through Sauron's fair cloak. QED.

So why would I expect the future Nazgul to be any more suspicious? Especially those who were Numenoreans? Because Sauron's foul deceipt is discernible to the observant: Tolkien is careful in these stories to point that out. They didn't detect it, to their destruction.





The Numenoreans and the Dwarves knew full well they were dealing with Sauron, while the Mirdain and the future Nazgul didn't. Among the Mirdain, NO ONE doubted Sauron. Why would you want the nazgul to be more suspicious?
The Numenoreans knew? Where does it say that Ar-Pharazon knew who Sauron was, that he was the lieutenant of Morgoth, and their ancient enemy from the First Age? I don't see that in the text, certainly not in the Akallabeth. Maybe I missed something and you could be kind enough to point out where it says Ar-Pharazon knew who and what Sauron was? It is true, not one of the Mirdain, the smiths of Eregion, saw Sauron for what he was, but their queen did, and they didn't listen and even rejected her and her husband's rule.


When Sauron appeared in disguise in Ost-in Edhil there was nothing to give him away to the Mirdain.
Galadriel? Messengers from Gil-galad and Elrond? Their own misgivings, misgivings that at least some other elves were having? Given their history with Morgoth and Sauron, a modicum of doubt about Annatar, esp. once he begins sowing dissension between first them and Gil-galad, and then between them and their king and queen? But no....

He was universally trusted. Even Galadriel had nothing definite against him.

Nothing definite but she didn't welcome him or like him either, nor trust him. I. E. so much for "universal" trust. And again, these are not innocent elves, many are refugees from Gondolin and other elven kingdoms that fell in the First Age due to treachery. And Galadriel (and according to other sources, others) at least senses an unfocused by definite ill will directed against the elves and men. Plenty to at least raise a yellow alert: caution.

Why should there be anything to give him away when he spoke with the future nazgul?
You are kidding, right? Well, first there are Numenoreans among them, they at least should remember their own history and ancestry. As for the others, would you be suspicious is someone promised you a great deal in return for nothing more than receiving his gift of friendship, a gift that keeps on giving, extends your life etc....so even if at first they didn't detect anything, they didn't lose their free will entirely, and yet continued to wear the ring until they were utterly and completely dominated. So let me reiterate: fair cloak hides foul deceit that is seen through by some, but not by others who don't look.

[Butterbeer]

Professor Gordis :) :D

Ahem, Thanks guys! :)


*throws paper airplane from shadowy recesses at the back*

so ... Professor "Bumbledore" Gordis heh what, i say? Do i? yes!! :D

( ... y'know it's how i have always imagined you! )


:) :D

[Butterbeer]

No problem, Landroval. I know that you wouldn't be arguing with Gordis if you didn't respect her opinion.


:eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D

..well.... you live and learn as my ol' gaffer used to say!

..but's that a new one on me ..an' no mistake! ;)

best, BB :)
(keep it up guys and gals)

[Forkbeard]

You are right, of course. But still it was not this "melkorism" that thoubled our fair Lady Galadriel, but some inconsistency in Annatar's backstory: she failed to remember Maia Aulendil from Valinor.
Even later, when she knew who was the source of that "teaching", she happily used her Ring to create a little "personal paradise on Earth" and to rule it.

You are conflating stories here. Her failure to remember a Maia Aulendil among Aule's people is part of an independent note published as a footnote in the UT: Of Galadriel and Celeborn. This shouldn't be conflated with the misgivings Galadriel has in the actual story.

And I believe you have the sequence incorrect. According to Of Galadriel and Celeborn, they ruled Eregionl; when Sauron inspired a rebellion, Galadriel left, crossed the mountains, and founded Lorien as a stronghold against Sauron (not a personal paradise). It was still sometime before Celebrimor (sp?) discovered Sauron when the latter put on the ONe Ring, and once he did ol' C headed across the mountains and consulted Galadriel who counselled that the 3 be hidden far away from Eregion and not used (do remember that if used Sauron wearing the ONe could detect them and the thoughts of those who wore them). She then received her Ring . Her wearubg if the Ring increased her desire for the Sea and so she lost her joy in ME So: a) Lorien was established before the Ring came her way b) it was established as a fortress against Sauron and his minions c) she with her husband later ruled the kingdom for a long time without the power of the ring and d) the ring drained her of her joy in Middle Earth--hardly a personal paradise.

[Butterbeer]

blimey ... BB tries to catch up ... so we have the good proffessor ( with the candlestick in the library), ol' Forkbeard (hello there, long time! :) ) and then the 2 new guys CAB and Landroval who both seem to be a baiting me with the idea that i cannot apparently read ... :eek: :D ...


mmm ... it all sounds interesting! ;)

Has Lord Olmer been around recently?

so ...we playing team tag or what? ;)


Professor: why is the letter #246 "accursed"?

Are you implying it was not written by Tolkien and that it maqy some vodoo thought-restricting power over those that read it too many times???

best (all) BB ;) :)

[Landroval]

b) it was established as a fortress against Sauron and his minions
I disagree:
He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.
by that time, Sauron was a 'mere lieutenant' of Melkor.

[Forkbeard]

I disagree:

by that time, Sauron was a 'mere lieutenant' of Melkor.

Hey Landroval,
Its late, so I'm gonna be quick. If you have UT, read the intro to "Of Celeborn and Galadriel". If you don't, let me say briefly that Christopher Tolkien notes that there are several contradictions in his father's handling of Galadriel's back story, that being one of them. I wouldn't have referred us to UT had it not been the obvious place where Gordis was drawing information from.

On another note, regardless of which version in the end was the one Tolkien wanted, the one in the LoTR or in the UT, it is clear that one can not claim that Galadriel created Lorien as a "personal paradise on Earth" with the Ring, wrong on 2 counts--it wasn't a personal paradise and it wasn't established with the power of the ring. QED.

Warm Regards,

FB

[Forkbeard]

blimey ... BB tries to catch up ... so we have the good proffessor ( with the candlestick in the library), ol' Forkbeard (hello there, long time! :) ) and then the 2 new guys CAB and Landroval who both seem to be a baiting me with the idea that i cannot apparently read ... :eek: :D ...


mmm ... it all sounds interesting! ;)

Has Lord Olmer been around recently?

so ...we playing team tag or what? ;)


Professor: why is the letter #246 "accursed"?

Are you implying it was not written by Tolkien and that it maqy some vodoo thought-restricting power over those that read it too many times???

best (all) BB ;) :)


Grand to have you back and in fine fettle and finer form, BB!

[Gordis]

I confess I'm a little lost here. I never said anything about the Morgul wound giving him a "more elvish" outlook, but he certainly has grown in wisdom; the wise are those who side with the elves in Tolkien's books, and with Gandalf.
I meant this:
Oh, I don't know about "Man-like". Is wisdom indeed a "human" possession? In Tolkien's world it is indeed the elves and Gandalf who have wisdom--Frodo perhaps has becomce more "elvish" in outlook, a vestige, a sign, of the light of the Undying Lands.
I thought you referred to this quote from LOTR- Many Meetings:
Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside, and took a good look at Frodo. The colour had come back to his face, and his eyes were clear, and fully awake and aware. He was smiling, and there seemed to be little wrong with him. But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change just a hint as it were of transparency, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside upon the coverlet.
`Still that must be expected,' said Gandalf to himself. `He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.'
and to these quotes Faramir: `But whatever befell on the North March, you, Frodo, I doubt no longer. If hard days have made me any judge of Men's words and faces, then I may make a guess at Halflings! Though,' and now he smiled, `there is something strange about you, Frodo, an elvish air, maybe.
Sam: And for a moment he lifted up the Phial and looked down at his master, and the light burned gently now with the soft radiance of the evening-star in summer, and in that light Frodo's face was fair of hue again, pale but beautiful with an elvish beauty, as of one who has long passed the shadows.
Gorbag: 'Lugbúrz wants it, eh? What is it, d'you think? Elvish it looked to me, but undersized.

I would say the process of acquiring "more elvish outlook" started right after the Morgul wound.

Perhaps the future nazgul also looked more and more "elvish :eek: :D , more and more transparent, until OOPS - they disappear entirely.

Landroval has addressed the rest, but he neglected to mention Nimrodel, the perfect example of a fading elf.
Perhaps I am missing something, but I had an impression that Nimrodel just got lost and nobody knows what has become of her?? :confused:

So yes, the Ring can engender love, but an evil, destructive, despairing love that destroys. Well, I agree, the Ring twists everything. But isn't Gollum's love twisted? If Gollum loved Frodo with pure love, would he lead him to Shelob? That was simply an attempt of calculated, premeditated murder.

First, Sauron begins going about Middle Earth as Annatar; he comes to Lindon and is refused admittance because for some reason unstated Gilgalad and Elrond distrust him, and distrust him enough to send messengers to the other elven lands to warn them. Proves my point: Sauron's machinations are seen through in spite of the fair form. Right. But what does it prove? that Sauron's foulness could be dimly perceived only by selected few, and those few (except Galadriel), haven't even seen him:
Only to Lindon he did not come, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming, and though they knew not who in truth he was they would not admit him to that land. But elsewhere the Elves received him gladly, and few among them hearkened to the messengers from Lindon bidding them beware; for Sauron took to himself the name of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, and they had at first much profit from his friendship.Silm
He however saw through Sauron the instant that Sauron put on the Ruling Ring Of course he did! One could hardly continue to believe his dear old friend after hearing him say: "Ash nazg drabatuluk..etc.."

As for the other examples, as I said, people knew he WAS Sauron, so it helped somewhat to be more wary. Even in this case, though, many were deceived.

Dain replies, "I must consider this message and what it means under its FAIR cloak." Do you think Dain is lieing, Gordis? T'would seem so. Lieing to the messenger of Mordor? Of course, why not? Dain wants to gain time and learn more. Do you think he really considered the possibility to give away Bilbo? If he said "no" outright, he would have been attacked immediately, for all he knew. Simple diplomacy.

would you be suspicious is someone promised you a great deal in return for nothing more than receiving his gift of friendship, a gift that keeps on giving, extends your life etc..
Sounds great! :D Such a gift I sure as hell won't refuse. Would you? :p

On another note, regardless of which version in the end was the one Tolkien wanted, the one in the LoTR or in the UT, it is clear that one can not claim that Galadriel created Lorien as a "personal paradise on Earth" with the Ring, wrong on 2 counts--it wasn't a personal paradise and it wasn't established with the power of the ring. QED.
You misunderstood me. I was not referring to the Second Age, when Nenya was not wielded, but to the Third, when Galadriel took over the Rule of Lorien after Amroth had disappeared (TA 1981) and with the help of her Ring DID create a little personal paradise on Earth ;) , complete with mallorns and al, a realm with twisted time and strictly guarded borders, a realm which endured as long as the Rings endured. And here I refer strictly to the LOTR.

Lorien as described by Sam Whether they've made the land, or the land's made them, it's hard to say, if you take my meaning. It's wonderfully quiet here. Nothing seems to be going on, and nobody seems to want it to. If there's any magic about, it's right down deep, where I can't lay my hands on it, in a manner of speaking.'
'You can see and feel it everywhere,' said Frodo.
and this quote
Sam sat tapping the hilt of his sword as if he were counting on his fingers, and looking up at the sky. `It's very strange,' he murmured. `The Moon's the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it's out of its running, or I'm all wrong in my reckoning. You'll remember, Mr. Frodo, the Moon was waning as we lay on the flet up in that tree: a week from the full, I reckon. And we'd been a week on the way last night, when up pops a New Moon as thin as a nail-paring, as if we had never stayed no time in the Elvish country.
`Well, I can remember three nights there for certain, and I seem to remember several more, but I would take my oath it was never a whole month. Anyone would think that time did not count in there! '
`And perhaps that was the way of it,' said Frodo. `In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by. It was not, I think, until Silverlode bore us back to Anduin that we returned to the time that flows through mortal lands to the Great Sea. And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadhon: only stars by night and sun by day.'
Legolas stirred in his boat. `Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; `but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'
`But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. `The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'

[Butterbeer]

wotcha Professor! :D

i'll read that long post sometime i have more patience! ;)

good to see ya!

BB
x x x

[Gordis]

Good to see you too, BB :)