Book V; ch IX and X. The Last Debate and The Black Gate Opens

[crickhollow]

Thanks for your patience, guys, I was actually in the middle of posting this last night when I lost my internet connection.

V; ix The Last Debate

The Last Debate is a breath of calm before a final plunge into the last great battle in the war of the ring. The houses of Healing deals with the aftermath of the battle of Pelannor Fields, but in chapter nine the reader finally gets a chance to draw a breath. There is even quite a bit of lightheartedness, at the reunion of the remnant of the fellowship, though each is still burdened by what lies ahead. This is also Tolkien’s last chance to fill in any missing details, before bringing us to the climactic battle for the fellowship, and then plunging us into the dark and oppressive Mordor with Sam and Frodo (my least favorite part of the story, if truth be told).

1.characters and major plot points
The friendship of Legolas and Gimli (the most unlikely friendship of all) is highlighted again in this chapter: “Together the Elf and the Dwarf entered Minas Tirith, and folk that saw them pass marveled to see such companions”. Tolkien notes their differences in reference both to their oddity as a pair (when I was in high school I had a friend who was 4’11”, and I was 5’10”. My mom called us the long and the short of it), and to their strengths. Gimli promises to rebuild Minas Tirith to its former strength, and Legolas sees its need for beauty, and growing things.
The four friends meet again in the houses of healing, and recap their adventures for the benefit of one another, and also for those of us listening in. We’ve heard most of everything from Merry and Pippin’s points of view; now Legolas and Gimli tell of their journey through the Paths of the Dead, and the ensuing battles to the south.

The chapter closes on a more somber note: our fearless leaders, the Captains of the West, are strategies for battle and for brining aid to the ring-bearer. They agree to the counsel of Gandalf and Aragorn; to make themselves bait for the dark lord, in hopes of giving Frodo a chance to make it across the wasteland to Mount Doom. “We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dur be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. And better so than to perish nonetheless—as we surely shall, if we sit here—and know as we die that no new age will be.” – Gandalf

2.Favorite scenes/quotes

“Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till.” My friend, Brandon, told me the same thing last summer, when we were having a conversation about life-goals, and figuring out what God has planned for your life. He said, “Do the good that’s in front of you”, and I love it, because I’m not a one-man revolution. I’m a solitary person, and the world’s problems can be very overwhelming. But I can do whatever’s good that’s in front of me.

“Up with your beard, Durin’s son!” -- Legolas

Anything Gandalf and Aragorn say during the last debate. I’m a sucker for death with valour speeches.

3.questions, comments for discussion.


1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story? I haven’t read it since I was a kid. But it end up that she and the rest of her group are rescued, and they sail back to Crete, but when the king sees the ship with black sails on the horizon, he takes it as confirmation of his daughter’s death, and kills himself. I was never very excited about ancient mythology and history; this was just a story I remember from when I was a kid. Are there other instances where Tolkien borrows an old story and I just never noticed?

2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city? To me it adds to his sort of Christ-figure status: “Foxes have holes; birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” Ioreth’s observation that the true king has the hands of a Healer, and the fact that there have been many prophecies concerning his coming all add to that effect. Now, obviously, I know this is not an allegory, and I know that Aragorn is a man of war (lots of correlations to the young Beowulf), and Jesus came as a lamb to the slaughter. I know that similes and metaphors only go so far before they break down. I’m just sayin’…

3. This chapter is the point when I begin to admire this new character to whom we’ve recently been introduced. We don’t get much of his history here, and I know our purpose of discussion is to stick to LotR itself, but can any HoME scholars point me to where Tolkien gives us more of Imrahil?

V; X The Black Gate Opens

1.Characters and major plot points.

Merry is left behind in Minas Tirith; he watches the rest of the Fellowship head toward Mordor, presumably to die in battle there. Pippin marches with the soldiers of Gondor, and the two friends are once more separated. After a long march The King and his host arrive at the gates of Mordor to challenge the dark lord. The Captains treat with The Mouth of Sauron, reject his terms of “peace”, and begin the final battle.

2.Favorite scenes/quotes.

“Surety you crave! Sauron gives none. If you sue for his clemency you must first do his bidding. These are his terms. Take them or leave them!”
“These we will take!” said Gandalf suddenly. He cast asid his cloak and a white light shone forth like a sword in that black place…These we will take in memory of our friend,” he cried. “But as for your terms, we reject them utterly.”

“But no! That came in his tale, long long ago. This is my tale, and it is ended now. Good-bye!” – Pippin

3. Questions, comments for discussion.

1. I find it interesting that they went “openly yet heedfully”. Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point? Why, if they were so hopeless (“So time and hopeless journey wore away” page 169) for their own situation, did they not run full speed at the Black Gate, kamikaze style?

2. I’ve re-read this chapter several times, and I just noticed the term “Morannon”. Is The Morannon referring to The Black Gate, or the field/area in front of the gate?

3. Do you think that The Captains of the West believed the ring to be in Sauron’s hands after seeing Frodo’s things in the hands of the enemy?

4. I can’t help comparing Merry’s and Pippin’s experiences in battle. Any thoughts on this one? Votes as to who’s the bravest? Like Merry, Pippin was the only hobbit on the battlefield, and he marked out and killed one significant (even to men--the troll struck down Beregond just before Pippin killed it) opponent.

[Beren3000]

Great job, crickhollow! Thank you :)
He said, “Do the good that’s in front of you”, and I love it, because I’m not a one-man revolution. I’m a solitary person, and the world’s problems can be very overwhelming. But I can do whatever’s good that’s in front of me.

Nice :)

I was never very excited about ancient mythology and history; this was just a story I remember from when I was a kid. Are there other instances where Tolkien borrows an old story and I just never noticed?
The example that most readily comes to mind is how Turin's tale is similar to that of Oedipus, from the play Oedipus Rex by Sophocles.
This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city?
Hmm...I never thought of it in terms of his Christ-figure status. I think he doesn't enter simply because he doesn't want to add to the chaos that's already struck the city by claiming to be the rightful king right there and then. Maybe he also felt that he had yet to earn the throne of Gondor through battle.
Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point?
I think they wanted to arrive to the Black Gate unchallenged, without wasting their forces needlessly. You must also keep in mind that their "caution" doesn't mean secrecy: they were blowing horns and heralding Aragorn as the King of Gondor.

[Rían]

Good summary, crick! :)

The Last Debate is a breath of calm before a final plunge into the last great battle in the war of the ring. The houses of Healing deals with the aftermath of the battle of Pelannor Fields, but in chapter nine the reader finally gets a chance to draw a breath. There is even quite a bit of lightheartedness, at the reunion of the remnant of the fellowship, though each is still burdened by what lies ahead. This is also Tolkien’s last chance to fill in any missing details ... Good points - it was needed from a "technical" POV, so to speak - a rest for the reader, and a chance to fill in details.

I love this quote: “We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dur be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age..." To me, that shows the importance of doing what you believe to be right, even if you, personally, don't benefit or even KNOW that others will benefit.

But I can do whatever’s good that’s in front of me.Another big theme in LOTR that I believe is a good one.

1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story? Oh, yes :( I remember yelling in my head, "Don't do it! She's alive!!"

2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city? I always kinda wondered about that, but I think it was mostly to keep the number of conflicts/unknowns down to a minimum, because if he DID enter the city officially, he would almost have to make a claim to the throne. But I see what you mean, too. I think it just shows the depth of his character - he's not in it for the glory.

3. This chapter is the point when I begin to admire this new character to whom we’ve recently been introduced. We don’t get much of his history here, and I know our purpose of discussion is to stick to LotR itself, but can any HoME scholars point me to where Tolkien gives us more of Imrahil? *has a minor crush on Imrahil* :o
I can't recall much on Imrahil in HoME - maybe a sentence or two. But I don't have the LoTR HoMEs - I just have the Sil ones.

1. I find it interesting that they went “openly yet heedfully”. Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point? Why, if they were so hopeless (“So time and hopeless journey wore away” page 169) for their own situation, did they not run full speed at the Black Gate, kamikaze style? I think time was important, and they realized that - the longer they can keep Sauron's eye on them, the better, and a kamikaze-style attack would be too quick.

[CAB]

Thank you for the excellent summary crickhollow.

I agree with Rian that time was an important issue as the army approached the Black Gate. They needed to hold Sauron’s attention as long as possible. Also if they are defeated and the Ring isn’t found then Sauron may begin to suspect the truth of their designs. Another reason for them to go slowly was their uncertainty regarding Frodo’s position. For all they know he could be preparing to throw the Ring into the Cracks of Doom at any point on their journey. I think this doubt means they were not completely hopeless.

Regarding another of your questions, I think Gandalf at least didn’t believe that Sauron had the Ring after seeing Frodo’s (and Sam’s) things in the hands of the Mouth of Sauron. The Mouth speaks of only one Hobbit and calls him a spy, making no mention of the Ring. Gandalf plays along and also only speaks of a single prisoner. It is difficult to guess what the other captains were thinking since they don’t say anything at this time.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Very well done crickhollow. :)

I actually just got done reading these chapters a few days ago, not for the first time of coarse. :p Anywho, here's my 2 pennies.

1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story?
Didn't Agamemnon sacrifice his daughter to get a favorable winds in the Trojan Wars too? Off topic but it popped in my head. :rolleyes:
2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city?
Like Beren and Rian said, I think he didn't want to cause any more trouble, but; I think he also knew that if Frodo had failed and the Enemy had the ring, there really wouldn't be a point in claiming the throne cause he wouldn't hold it long. He had his doubts didn't he? I mean, Aragorn was a brave man and a natural leader but I don't think he wanted to give these people false hope.
1. I find it interesting that they went “openly yet heedfully”. Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point? Why, if they were so hopeless (“So time and hopeless journey wore away” page 169) for their own situation, did they not run full speed at the Black Gate, kamikaze style?
Better to get it over quick, like a bandaid. :D Like CAB said, they weren't sure of were Frodo was and it was better to have Sauron watching them then searching for Frodo, which later on we find out he(Sauron) knew Frodo had escaped.

[The Gaffer]

2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city?

Actions speak louder than words.

Clearly, Aragorn has given thought to the situation and to his likely reception in Gondor.

By camping outside, yet entering as a Ranger of the North to do his healing thing, he gains acceptance by the people before even claiming the throne.

It shows a depth of insight in Aragorn which we get only occasionally. He is a man on a mission, a life-long mission. He has shown us he is bold and courageous, and now we see caution and prudence.

It brings to mind the debate between Aragorn and Gandalf in TTT (is it over possibly using The Palantir?) where Gandalf senses that Aragorn is tempted to test himself against Sauron directly. Aragorn says something like "who am I to be rash, who has waited all these years?", and yet he wrests the stone from Sauron's dominion. As a result, of course, he sees the Black Fleet and takes the Paths of the Dead.

Anyhow, the point is that these must be very difficult judgments to make. As readers, with a hobbit's perspective, we only get the actions and not the first-person narrative of that decision.

You have to admire how JRRT gives us a glimpse of such depths in a short description of a deed.

As a literary style, I think it is part of what makes these characters (Aragorn, Gandalf, etc) take on an air of heroism.

I never considered it Christ-like, but then, that's probably because I'm not a Christian :D

However, I totally agree that "do the good that's in front of you" is one of the excellent themes of LOTR. I also agree that Gandalf wasn't fooled by the mail-shirt. The Mouth gives it away by saying "whatever his mission was, it has failed".

[mithrand1r]

Thanks for your patience, guys, I was actually in the middle of posting this last night when I lost my internet connection.


No problem


3.questions, comments for discussion.


1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story? I haven’t read it since I was a kid. But it end up that she and the rest of her group are rescued, and they sail back to Crete, but when the king sees the ship with black sails on the horizon, he takes it as confirmation of his daughter’s death, and kills himself. I was never very excited about ancient mythology and history; this was just a story I remember from when I was a kid. Are there other instances where Tolkien borrows an old story and I just never noticed?


Right story although some facts are not correct.
The King of Crete had the Minotaur (http://www.minotaur-websites.com/minomyth.htm) and the maze where the Minotaur was kept.


When Minos heard of the death of his son, he became enraged, and gathered a great fleet together to avenge the murder. Although he was the effective ruler of the Mediterranean, quite a few of the Greeks fought on the side of Athens, or stayed neutral. The refusal of Aeacus, the king of Aegina, to join the Cretans was particularly galling to Minos. With all of his power, though, Minos was unable to defeat the Greeks until, in exasperation, he called on the aid of Zeus to avenge Androgeus. Greece was hit by famine and earthquakes, and the oracle at Delphi advised the Athenians to satisfy any demands that Minos made in return for peace. The demand was for a tribute of seven youths and seven maidens to be given every nine years, as sacrifice to the Minotaur, to which the Athenians reluctantly agreed.

Theseus forgot to change his sail from black to white. As the ship pulled in to port, Aegeus, seeing the black sail, assumed the worst, and lept from a precipice to his death in the sea that still bears his name.

[GreyMouser]

I always loved the linguistic interplay between Aragorn and the Master of the Houses of Healing.

And the joking betwen Aragorn and Merry- after all that action we're due for a bit of comic relief.

[Butterbeer]

Nice work Crickhollow! :)

yes, Grey Mouser (hello by the way) ... it's a nice change of pace and scale- brings it back to some heart warming close ups as it were so that we can scale the dramatic "wides" later...

Literaturely (sp?) speaking, it puts things in a context perhaps?

yes the pompous "learned man" and the garrulous (sp?) old wise woman iroeth and her folksy wisdom better than learned arrogance!

A favourite of mine too.


Christ like?
Not for me - nor i think for Tolkien - i think maybe an inner beauty or nobility or power, partly from ... (Eru) ... there seems also a parallel with the faith of faramir ..that he "knew he would come" .. etc ...

As CAB mentions power, beauty and nobilty etc coming from high lineages and from birth rights etc are a massive strand in LOTR and in Tolkiens work generally.

But i do not think JRR was drawing such a literal comparison to Christ - although it is an interesting question / reflection.


Best, BB

[crickhollow]

but I just wanted to respond to Butterbeer’s last comment

I didn’t mean to argue that Tolkien meant Aragorn as an allegorical Christ. Probably my definition of a Christ-figure in literature differs slightly from yours. I use the term loosely, and meant to describe any character with Christ-like qualities; I see them popping out all over the place. Usually a Christ-like character demonstrates sacrifice (like Frodo and his decision to take the ring to Mt. Doom, even though it certainly meant his death, or both Jean Val-Jean and Monseigneur Bienvenu at different points in Les Mis, to cite a non-Tolkien example), but also other characteristics. I'd still argue for Aragorn being a Christ-figure. Note the reference from the Gospel of Matthew (Mt 8:20) in my first post. And there are plenty of places in the Gospels (eg Mark 7:31-37) that show Jesus performing miracles and healing people, and then slipping off, saying, "don't tell anyone who I am." And then the people run off and tell everyone, “Hey, look, the Christ is here.” Which is pretty much what goes on in this chapter with Aragorn. And again, I’m not saying that Tolkien intends us to read Aragorn as a literal Christ-figure, but perhaps at least a literary one. You’d better believe a man of his religious beliefs and education knew all these stories, just as much as he knew the one about the King of Crete.

[Butterbeer]

well, it's good to see real and intelligent posting here in the discussion thread crickhollow.

I have always been a big proponent of allowing intelligent discussion on the fringes as it were of the main context of any chapter, and i DO hope this interesting sideline will be allowed to flourish.

It is my beleif that by doing so we honour the works of Tolkien far better than by vague praise.

he (JRR) was an intelligent man and creative, and indeed to some respects, a liberal minded man, but one who had a core of central beleif that was a solid plank in a fast moving stream, but one that always held him fast no matter where that stream or widening river took him but never bound him to any dogma his mind or soul was minded to reject.

Personally i think it pushes it somewhat to draw such a direct parallel (even, clarified as you are careful to make it :) ) between a christ-like figure and Aragorn or indeed any of Tolkien's characters.

It is an interesting idea for sure, and it'd be worthy to see where it leads, provided those that enter into the debate do so from a Tolkien perspective above and beyond any firmly held beleifs ... i only say that to mean that we have the better Tolkien debate rather than denigrating this worthy project into the realms of General messages and such :)

Tolkien had a very complex view on Christianity and the Church indeed from his upbringing ...James Joyce springs to mind vaguely here .. , and I, for one, feel, it perhaps does not tell the WHOLE story to assume the undeniable metaphors in his writings should be read so literally.

This is not CSS Lewis , whom he would argue Theology till the dawn broke with.

Yet ... we see in Arargorn, the healer, the self-scarificing, the foretold, if you will, many themes. For myself, i consider that this was written over many years and experiences, and that ever as a river runs so did his thoughts and ideas.

Regards,
BB

[The Gaffer]

I suppose we could add a few other things to potential parallels: he went out into the wilderness, didn't go in for much in the way of material wealth

But his decision to remain outside the city was political and important to the plot: so as to retain unity, be sensitive and respectful of the office of Steward, and, from the storyline's perspective, fulfil the prophesies ("Elfstone" being the main one I would say).

Am too uneducated to comment on the literary roots. In what ways does he resemble Beowulf, for example?

[Earniel]

1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story? I haven’t read it since I was a kid. But it end up that she and the rest of her group are rescued, and they sail back to Crete, but when the king sees the ship with black sails on the horizon, he takes it as confirmation of his daughter’s death, and kills himself. [..]
I think you may be mixing myths, as the black or white sails seems to be a recurrent theme among mythology. The myth regarding Crete and the Minotaur went as Mithrand1r described earlier. Although I believe the King of Crete did have a daughter who fell for Theseus and helped in defeating the Minotaur in the labyrinth on Crete. She later fled with Theseus, but according to different versions died underway, was swept overboard or was deliberately stranded on an island. Due to her death or disappearance Theseus forgot to change the sails before getting home, resulting in the death of his father.

But in some versions of the tale of Isold and Tristram, the sail-incident recurs as well. And I remember seeing it in a Japanese fairy tale as well, although that may have been cross-contamination.

2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city?
I'd say it as a careful strategy. He finally got in Gondor after all these years and had shown the Royal Standard, but he just couldn't walk in and take over the show. Tradition was to be respected and he probably would wish to be properly crowned king, in peace time and have the steward properly hand over control of the kingdom. Since danger form Mordor still threatened, things like coronations would have to wait.

This chapter is the point when I begin to admire this new character to whom we’ve recently been introduced. We don’t get much of his history here, and I know our purpose of discussion is to stick to LotR itself, but can any HoME scholars point me to where Tolkien gives us more of Imrahil?
Sadly not much is found of Imrahil outside the LoTR-chapters on Minas Tirith, to my knowledge. There's some information how the elf-blood came into the line of Dol Amroth through Mithrellas, an Elf from the people of Nimrodel, but little else.

I find it interesting that they went “openly yet heedfully”. Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point? Why, if they were so hopeless (“So time and hopeless journey wore away” page 169) for their own situation, did they not run full speed at the Black Gate, kamikaze style?
As said before, there was really no use in rushing and risk being defeated too soon, before Frodo had a chance to complete his journey. They had to draw Sauron's gaze long enough and pose enough a threat (or a treat ;)) for Sauron to concentrate on them.

I’ve re-read this chapter several times, and I just noticed the term “Morannon”. Is The Morannon referring to The Black Gate, or the field/area in front of the gate?
Linguistically, as 'annon' stands for gate, I'm inclined to say it would have only stood for the gate. But if one makes a comparison to the Sirannon, the Gate-Stream of Moria, things change a bit. If Morannon, means Black Gate, shouldn't Gate-Stream then have been called Annonsir? (Although I readily admit, Sirannon sounds better IMO.) So I'm inclined to think names ending on 'annon', could refer easily as well to the area before the actual gate.

Do you think that The Captains of the West believed the ring to be in Sauron’s hands after seeing Frodo’s things in the hands of the enemy?
I suppose in the initial surprise, yes. But as CAB and others have said, I reckon Gandalf's questions were geared at finding out whether they had found the Ring and whether Frodo had been alone when captured. I would say he found out the Mouth of Sauron was mostly bluffing and acted accordingly. But I'm unsure whether the other of the party saw this as well.

[Landroval]

We don’t get much of his history here, and I know our purpose of discussion is to stick to LotR itself, but can any HoME scholars point me to where Tolkien gives us more of Imrahil?
As Earniel already mentioned, Tolkien talks about his ancestry in part two, chapter four of the Unfinished Tales. In the letters, we are lead to speculate that Imrahil may have taken leadership of Gondor when Aragorn was leading military expeditions.
3. Do you think that The Captains of the West believed the ring to be in Sauron’s hands after seeing Frodo’s things in the hands of the enemy?
Well, it does say that their hopes are gone. However, the Mouth of Sauron keeps babbling about spies and conspiracy, so, later on, the horror on their faces must be related more to their affection for the hobbit (as abstract as that may be), rather than knowingly facing a ring-ed Sauron. Moreover, as Gandalf told them, if Sauron regained the ring, his victory would be quite swift - it is doubtful they would have gotten to Morannon as they did or that he would entertain the idea of a parley, giving away any sort of "privileges".

[Jon S.]

This will surely not make me many friends here but in my view the last person I'd compare Aragorn to would be Jesus. If Tolkien had modeled Aragorn after Jesus, instead of having him march out, sword in hand, leading an army to oppose Sauron's evil he'd have had him let Sauron march unopposed straight into Minas Tirith while blaming the Gondorian establishment for his woes.

[Gordis]

the last person I'd compare Aragorn to would be Jesus.
Absolutely right.:)

[Landroval]

If Tolkien had modeled Aragorn after Jesus, instead of having him march out, sword in hand, leading an army to oppose Sauron's evil he'd have had him let Sauron march unopposed straight into Minas Tirith while blaming the Gondorian establishment for his woes.
I agree that Aragorn wasn't modeled after Jesus. As Tolkien said about Gandalf resembling Jesus (emphasis added):
Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death; and came back or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, it is not really the same thing at all. The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write.
I believe the same applies to Aragorn, even more so. However, I believe you have discarded this idea for the wrong reasons. Jesus himself does not appear as a "defeatist", or someone relinquishing the ultimate fight - quite the contrary; he is an example of the ultimate savior, who brings victory over evil. I wonder how much will the mods allow us to pursue this line of debate :cool:

[Jon S.]

I have no desire to argue Christianity with you. I will only repeat that it seems to me a stretch indeed to equalize "ultimate savior, who brings victory over evil" to Aragorn. However, it's obviously a stretch you want to make so let me stop here.

[Landroval]

I have no desire to argue Christianity with you. I will only repeat that it seems to me a stretch indeed to equalize "ultimate savior, who brings victory over evil" to Aragorn. However, it's obviously a stretch you want to make so let me stop here.
Perhaps you misunderstood me :). I didn't disagree over the Aragorn-Jesus parallel (I stated I agree there isn't, you can read that in the beginning of my last post), but over what the Christian figure would do in a similar situation.

[The Telcontarion]

I agree that Aragorn wasn't modeled after Jesus. As Tolkien said about Gandalf resembling Jesus (emphasis added):

I believe the same applies to Aragorn, even more so. However, I believe you have discarded this idea for the wrong reasons. Jesus himself does not appear as a "defeatist", or someone relinquishing the ultimate fight - quite the contrary; he is an example of the ultimate savior, who brings victory over evil. I wonder how much will the mods allow us to pursue this line of debate :cool:

I agree with Landroval's point here about jesus, i was infact thinking the same thing.

Aragorn was not a jesus figure at all. But not because jesus was some meek pacifist.

Matthew 21:12-13

"12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."

Jesus was to me the ultimate warrior when it was called for.

Aragorn was just a hero, not a messiah.

[Gordis]

I have just re-read the thread and I think it strange that we haven't discussed Sauron's terms. For me they are most puzzling.

1. Why would Sauron decide to propose terms at all - if he hoped to crush the Gondorians like fleas? Was he so shaken by the Pelennor defeat? Why give the Gondorians time to regroup and Aragorn or Gandalf time to master the Ring?

2. Why were the terms not-too-bad - almost acceptable I would say?

3. And what would Sauron do if the West accepted the terms?

4. Did Sauron indeed plan to give Isengard to the Mouth? And what about Saruman?

[Earniel]

Oooh, more questions. :D

1. Why would Sauron decide to propose terms at all - if he hoped to crush the Gondorians like fleas? Was he so shaken by the Pelennor defeat? Why give the Gondorians time to regroup and Aragorn or Gandalf time to master the Ring?
It could fit with playing with his enemy before crushing them. Didn't Gandalf say somewhere that Sauron was the sort of person who'd pull out all the legs and wings out of an insect instead of just swatting it? If not, it was at least a discription that I found fitted Sauron nevertheless.

I think he had more than enough troops ready behind the Black Gate to wipe out the entire Gondorean and Rohirrim army and then some. I'm pretty sure he knew this. So time to regroup and set up their army was essentially worthless for the Gondoreans. Sauron could crush them anytime, but first he wanted to demoralise them some more.

And hey, if they accepted it, he had access to the West. He could see and try his old tricks again that worked so well in Númenor.

Why were the terms not-too-bad - almost acceptable I would say?
I have to disagree, the terms were pretty outrageous if you ask me. The demands that Gondor or Rohan never took arms up against Sauron and Mordor, regardless of what they got up to? Demanding to receive all the lands east of the Anduin? That would mean that Gondor not only lost the whole of Ithilien and half of Osgiliath, it would also but the bordor of Mordor within sight and hardly a day's travel on Minas Tirith. And if Sauron meant the lands east of the entire river, he'd also claim Mirkwood and the Lonely Mountain. (Although I reckon this term probably didn't refer to the lands east of the Anduin that were so far north of Mordor.)

All the lands between the Misty Mountains and the river had to pay Mordor (and you can bet he'd ask a lot) and were forbidden to ever bear weapons. And since he would have moved his border right up to Minas Tirith, he could over-run the country within days.

He also would claim Isengard with all its secrets and lore and beside that, it would put him in control of an important road between Rohan and Gondor and the lands behind the Mist Mountains. Not to mention that the Mouth of Sauron, if he was placed there, would set out pretty quick to carve himself a generously large country.

It would basically give Sauron free range and access to half the western lands of Middle-earth. Hardly acceptable terms.

3. And what would Sauron do if the West accepted the terms?
He'd probably go: "They accepted? Ha! Suckers!" :p

4. Did Sauron indeed plan to give Isengard to the Mouth? And what about Saruman?
Saruman had had his uses by then, and I doubt he could ever get in the good graces of Sauron again. Not only did Saruman try to betray Sauron, but he had lost much of his pursuation skills, his staff was broken in the last confrontation with Gandalf, and his armies ruined. I don't see anything that Saruman could mean for Sauron after that.

[Gordis]

It could fit with playing with his enemy before crushing them. Didn't Gandalf say somewhere that Sauron was the sort of person who'd pull out all the legs and wings out of an insect instead of just swatting it? If not, it was at least a discription that I found fitted Sauron nevertheless. I don't remember anyone ever said this.
Moreover, I believe it is not true: Sauron was not mindlessly sadistic. Yes he was very cruel, but above all RATIONAL. He calculated everything to a nicety. If he did something, it was on purpose and was many-many-layered.

After the defeat of Pelennor, Sauron must have done some serious thinking. He could see that Fate (or the meddling Higher Powers) had favored his enemies quite shamelessly. Please, calculate the probability of the Witch King being confronted on the battlefield by a woman in disguise + a halfling + a Barrow blade. The probability of such event would be about 0.00000something. And the probability of both the Rohirrim and the men from the south-west Gondor coming to the rescue in time and quite unlooked-for? And the Dead of Dunharrow aiding Aragorn?And the West wind blowing away the pall of Darkness in the nick of time and speeding Aragorn's ships up the Anduin? The latter especially would sound ominous for Sauron: he could have felt a direct intervention of Manwe here, (whether he were correct or not).

So what Sauron saw facing him was the new wannabe Ringlord backed by the Powers and Fate, maybe Eru - and Sauron was afraid. That's why he didn't do the only thing that might have saved him - he didn't send all his armies on Minas Tirith at once, while the armies of the West were depleted, and the Gates of the City in shambles. Instead, he sat brooding in Mordor and watched the progress of Aragorn's army to the Black Gate.

Yes, Sauron took them quite seriously, I believe, otherwise he wouldn't have summoned all the remaining nazgul to Morannon, even Khamul, who would have been so much more needed at the head of the Northern Army, beseiging Erebor.

So, I think, Sauron sent out the Mouth just to better asses the situation - he needed to know if it were Aragorn who had the Ring or it was Gandalf. The Mouth deliberately provoked both Aragorn and Gandalf - to see their reaction.
‘Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?’ he asked. ‘Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!’ he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. ‘It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!’
‘Then thou art the spokesman, old greybeard? Have we not heard of thee at whiles, and of thy wanderings, ever hatching plots and mischief at a safe distance? But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the feet of Sauron the Great.

And then Sauron needed to know whether the West had more thump cards up their sleeves: so he gave them moderate terms (I will return to it later) to see if they would accept. Because if A+G had no Ring after all, and no other hopes, they could have accepted, saving their people from annihilation.
If they had accepted, he would know that either they were utterly weak and had no hope or they wished desperately for more time - then he would have crushed them without second thought: both Gandalf and Aragorn and maybe other high lords of Gondor - just in case.

So time to regroup and set up their army was essentially worthless for the Gondoreans. Sauron could crush them anytime, but first he wanted to demoralise them some more.
Nay, the West needed time very much (at least Sauron, not knowing about Frodo's quest, thought so). The Gates of Minas Tirith had to be repaired, more troops mustered and, most of all, the new Ringlord needed time to learn how to use the Ring. And Sauron was NOT going to give him this time (by the way, it was the reason why Sauron started the War immediatyely once he saw Aragorn in the Palantir and thought he had the Ring)


I have to disagree, the terms were pretty outrageous if you ask me. The demands that Gondor or Rohan never took arms up against Sauron and Mordor, regardless of what they got up to? Demanding to receive all the lands east of the Anduin? That would mean that Gondor not only lost the whole of Ithilien and half of Osgiliath, it would also but the bordor of Mordor within sight and hardly a day's travel on Minas Tirith. And if Sauron meant the lands east of the entire river, he'd also claim Mirkwood and the Lonely Mountain. (Although I reckon this term probably didn't refer to the lands east of the Anduin that were so far north of Mordor.)
The demand never to take arms against Mordor was quite reasonable if they signed a threaty: how could it have been otherwise? All the old Gondorian lands East of Anduin were Sauron's anyway before the war, Rhovanion and Ithilien were long deserted by Gondorians. Gondor only held half of Osgiliath and the West bank of Anduin. Nothing new would be lost here. As for Mirkwood, Dale etc. I don't think Artagorn had any authority to treat for them, or was asked to. Tribute and no weapons - well, that was not so very bad as compared to total annihilation the Gondorians were facing. At least they would be left to live and left to be ruled by their own rulers, not made into slaves.

And since he would have moved his border right up to Minas Tirith, he could over-run the country within days.
The border would remain exactly where it had been (de facto) since TA 2002 - the Anduin river

He also would claim Isengard with all its secrets and lore and beside that, it would put him in control of an important road between Rohan and Gondor and the lands behind the Mist Mountains. Not to mention that the Mouth of Sauron, if he was placed there, would set out pretty quick to carve himself a generously large country.
Sauron (via Saurman) already had access to all of it anyway. And the Mouth could hardly prove to be as dangerous as the traitor Saruman, a maia and the head of the White Council.

He'd probably go: "They accepted? Ha! Suckers!" :p
Yes, he would say that and once the peace is agreed upon and Gondor disarmed, he would get his hands on Gandalf and Aragorn to make sure they had no Ring after all. Not finding it, he would attack Lorien in earnest - because that would be the next likely place to keep it.

[Earniel]

I don't remember anyone ever said this.
Moreover, I believe it is not true: Sauron was not mindlessly sadistic. Yes he was very cruel, but above all RATIONAL. He calculated everything to a nicety. If he did something, it was on purpose and was many-many-layered.

I looked up and the quote is indeed less forward than my paraphrasing but the idea is still there:

"If the Dark Lord knows so much as you say, Mithrandir, will he not rather smile than fear, and with his little finger crush us like a fly that tries to sting him?"
"No, he will try to trap the fly and take the sting", said Gandalf.

I never said Sauron was mindlessly sadistic. I do think he was a very calculating and rational being. But none of that contradicts the idea that he would like to toy and with his enemies first.

After the defeat of Pelennor, Sauron must have done some serious thinking. He could see that Fate (or the meddling Higher Powers) had favored his enemies quite shamelessly. Please, calculate the probability of the Witch King being confronted on the battlefield by a woman in disguise + a halfling + a Barrow blade. The probability of such event would be about 0.00000something. And the probability of both the Rohirrim and the men from the south-west Gondor coming to the rescue in time and quite unlooked-for? And the Dead of Dunharrow aiding Aragorn?And the West wind blowing away the pall of Darkness in the nick of time and speeding Aragorn's ships up the Anduin? The latter especially would sound ominous for Sauron: he could have felt a direct intervention of Manwe here, (whether he were correct or not).
I disagree with your assesment of the involvement of the West. Technically both the presence of the barrow sword and of Eowyn is mainly due to Sauron's own dealings. The barrow sword was there because Sauron (or his minions) had filled the barrows with ghosts. If the barrow wight had not attacked the hobbits, they never could have gotten those swords. I don't think you can quite count Bombadil's intervention as meddling from the Higher powers since Bombadil is quite his own. Sauron's own dealings got the sword where it would bite the hardest.

Eowyn was there because like Theoden, Wormtongue had also poisoned her mind, making her think there was no glory left in Rohan, and forcing her to seek it in death on a battlefield elsewhere. We knew the Witch-King could not be bested by any Man, but that is a long away from saying that the Powers knew exactly who could best him and made it sure. You can speculate about this, but I see little evidence for it.

Merry's presence is mainly because of Gandalf who reasoned with Elrond to sent them both along. You could say Gandalf was inspired by the Powers for that, but I think Gandalf was pretty much left to his own devices. The Powers would not have sent the wizards if they intended some other form of interventions. They could have easily stopped the failures of the other wizards then.

I can see no intervention from the far West in the coming of the Rohirrim. And basically Aragorn taking the Path of the Dead was on biding of Galadriel. One can argue here that it was Galadriel's own foresight to suggest it, or prompting from the West. I'll grant this. But if the dead had not been loyal to Sauron in the past, they wouldn't have been there now to aid Aragorn. While keeping the army Isildur needed in the Last Alliance from him, Sauron accidentally made it possible for a strong army to be available against him at a moment he expected it not. The fact that Aragorn arrived on time, was pretty much because he kept looking in the palantir and knew when he had to arrive. And story-wise one has to admit, it is much more dramatic the way it happened.

So I'd name only the wind as direct show of support from the West. Hardly shamelessly. There's a theme visible in Tolkien's work, where evil will eventually be wrought to do some good. I'd say this is very much it. Sauron's own work was eventually turned against him, in this chapter and in others. I don't think the Powers can be implicated therein, I'd say this is something that was fixed in the Songs of the Ainur long before they came down to Arda.

So what Sauron saw facing him was the new wannabe Ringlord backed by the Powers and Fate, maybe Eru - and Sauron was afraid. That's why he didn't do the only thing that might have saved him - he didn't send all his armies on Minas Tirith at once, while the armies of the West were depleted, and the Gates of the City in shambles. Instead, he sat brooding in Mordor and watched the progress of Aragorn's army to the Black Gate.
I don't think sending the armies to Minas Tirith at once would have been a rational decision. Nor do I quite think he could have gotten all his armies quite that at once. It took him a few days to amass them at the Black Gate.

Yes, Sauron took them quite seriously, I believe, otherwise he wouldn't have summoned all the remaining nazgul to Morannon, even Khamul, who would have been so much more needed at the head of the Northern Army, beseiging Erebor.
Never said Sauron didn't take them seriously. I just think he made sure he could beat them on a martial level and knew this. Unless these western upstarts drew the Ring's power, Sauron's armies at the Black Gate were capable of dealing with them.

The demand never to take arms against Mordor was quite reasonable if they signed a threaty: how could it have been otherwise? All the old Gondorian lands East of Anduin were Sauron's anyway before the war, Rhovanion and Ithilien were long deserted by Gondorians. Gondor only held half of Osgiliath and the West bank of Anduin. Nothing new would be lost here. As for Mirkwood, Dale etc. I don't think Artagorn had any authority to treat for them, or was asked to. Tribute and no weapons - well, that was not so very bad as compared to total annihilation the Gondorians were facing. At least they would be left to live and left to be ruled by their own rulers, not made into slaves.
I disagree with the demands being reasonable. The lands south of the Anduin had been taken by Sauron, yes, but they were also re-taken when the Western armies marched through them. Sauron also had no claim on the lands, other than by conquest. The treaty would not officiate a current situation. It would mean Gondor would had to give up lands they owned quite longer than Sauron, lands that had been captured by the enemy, but also retaken.

Sauron (via Saurman) already had access to all of it anyway. And the Mouth could hardly prove to be as dangerous as the traitor Saruman, a maia and the head of the White Council.
I don't quite find both situations comparable. While Saruman was under Sauron's sway, he was not his agent. Sauron mostly dealt with Saruman through subterfuge. And Saruman hid his alliance with Mordor for a long time. With the Mouth, Mordor's influence would be able to act far more openly and more directly.

[CAB]

Concerning Sauron's fears about his enemies in Middle Earth receiving help from higher up, I agree with Gordis. We have to remember, when considering Sauron's actions (and I would guess this applies when looking at any character's actions) that his own beliefs or suspicions matter far more than the actual truth. Maybe Eru and the Valar had taken a hand and maybe they hadn't, but it is very likely that Sauron believed that they had, given how unlikely his defeat on the Pelanor was and the hard-to-miss symbolic western wind.



Please, calculate the probability of the Witch King being confronted on the battlefield by a woman in disguise + a halfling + a Barrow blade.
You could say that the chances are incredibly small, but there is another way to look at it. The prophesy that the Witch King wouldn't be defeated by a Man is really also a prophesy that he would be defeated by someone who wasn't a Man. Looked at this way, Eowyn, Merry, and the sword's presence aren't particularly surprising. Sooner or later some non-Man would have to be around to kill the Witch King and would need the proper tool to do the job. It was simply a matter of when.




About the terms, I would guess that they were pretty much meaningless, beyond Sauron toying with his enemies. Sauron could probably be expected to not stick to an agreement. The westerners could be expected not to accept any terms (except Sauron's surrender) given the situation. They had just won a major battle and marched several days (often proclaiming on the way that they were taking back their land) to Sauron's gates, where they demanded he "come forth. Justice shall be done upon him." Most importantly, Sauron thought that the new (but still learning) ringlord was leading this army. One of the Ring's effects is to make its holder think he is capable of much more than he in truth is. So, I think Sauron knew quite well that the westerners didn't come to surrender.

[Earniel]

Concerning Sauron's fears about his enemies in Middle Earth receiving help from higher up, I agree with Gordis. We have to remember, when considering Sauron's actions (and I would guess this applies when looking at any character's actions) that his own beliefs or suspicions matter far more than the actual truth.
True enough, but I don't think I have questioned the difference between actual events and Sauron's perception of them, at least it was not my intention. I was speaking (or attempting to at least) about the possibility/probability of a Western intervention, not Sauron's thoughts about it.

I may have mis-understood Gordis' post then.

[Butterbeer]

mmmm.. read this (sketchily this morning - had a few things to add ...)

but am too tired now to concentrate ...

Have fun all, best BB :)

[Gordis]

I never said Sauron was mindlessly sadistic. I do think he was a very calculating and rational being. But none of that contradicts the idea that he would like to toy with his enemy first.
OK, he would probably do that if he were confident in himself. But it was not the case at the Black Gate. I don't think he was simply toying- he tried to get more info this way.

I disagree with your assessment of the involvement of the West.CAB was right that I wanted to show things from Sauron's perspective, not to prove the immediate involvement of the Valar/Eru. Though I must say that on three occasions: the prophetic dream "Seek for the Sword that was broken", the resurrection and upgrade of Gandalf, and the West Wind, I see direct meddling of the Powers (here I mean both Eru and the Valar). For the rest the intervention is more difficult to pinpoint, things just happened this way, but Sauron would likely see the hand of Fate here also.

Tolkien says Sauron was weighting and calculating everything, that's why I spoke about probabilities. When lots of low-probability events happen at once, and all of them in favour of his enemies, it can't be natural.

Let us take a random example. For instance at the Buckleberry ferry the boat happened to be moored on the West bank. If it were at the East bank, the hobbits would have been caught by the nazgul, most likely. The probability here is 50% - so I doubt this event being not in his favour would worry Sauron unduly, not like something with probability of 0.000001% - like the fall of the WK. (I hope I am coherent here!:) )

CAB is right, the fall of the WK to "no man" had been prophesized, not random. So it must have been in the Music, but then perhaps all the rest was as well? Maybe Sauron's fall was also simply inevitable? Maybe the ones who had played the music took care afterwards to see it all come to pass? There was a lot to set the Dark Lord thinking and to make him afraid.

See how Sauron had reacted to the nazgul's failure in the Shire:
The wrath and fear of Sauron then may be guessed; yet if there was any in the world in whom he trusted it was the Lord of Angmar; and if his wrath were lessened by perceiving that his great servant had defeated by ill chance (and the craft of the Wise) rather than by faults of his own, his fear would be the more – seeing what power was yet in his Enemies, and how sharply fortune favoured them at each turn when all seemed lost. Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) RC, p 262-3
By the way, Saruman felt much the same way about Gandalf:
In his heart Saruman recognized the great power and the strange "good fortune" that went with Gandalf.-UT

I disagree with the demands being reasonable. The lands south of the Anduin had been taken by Sauron, yes, but they were also re-taken when the Western armies marched through them. Sauron also had no claim on the lands, other than by conquest. The treaty would not officiate a current situation. It would mean Gondor would had to give up lands they owned quite longer than Sauron, lands that had been captured by the enemy, but also retaken.
Well Earniel... if we go back, the lands were most likely Sauron's very own since he settled in Mordor around 1000 of the Second Age. Then Isildur quite brasenly built Minas Ithil right on Sauron's doorstep, annexing Mordor's lands unlawfully.:p The same was true for the East bank of Anduin and for Umbar and Harad that the nasty Gondorian imperialists:D had conquered around TA 1000.

[Earniel]

OK, he would probably do that if he were confident in himself. But it was not the case at the Black Gate. I don't think he was simply toying- he tried to get more info this way.
I do still think Sauron was confident in his military force at the Black gate. The possibility of the ring being used was indeed a gnawing uncertainty and I do agree the Mouth of Sauron was trying to fish for information during the conversation with the gondorean embassy, just as Gandalf was from his side. But I do think that Sauron had sufficiently prepared for the only thing he could fully prepare for, and that was military strenght. Confident at least in his greater military strenght, but probably not quite as confident in other factors such as the West involvement of Aragorn use and possession of the Ring.

CAB was right that I wanted to show things from Sauron's perspective, not to prove the immediate involvement of the Valar/Eru. Though I must say that on three occasions: the prophetic dream "Seek for the Sword that was broken", the resurrection and upgrade of Gandalf, and the West Wind, I see direct meddling of the Powers (here I mean both Eru and the Valar). For the rest the intervention is more difficult to pinpoint, things just happened this way, but Sauron would likely see the hand of Fate here also.
Okay, I misunderstood then.

It would be interesting to know whether or how much Sauron knew of the prophecy and Gandalf's upgrade. He could have learned of the prophecy only through Denethor since it wasn't that widely known. But I have my doubts that Denethor had much faith in the whole thing or that Sauron could pry this from him.

Gandalf's upgrade may not have been evident, other than his sudden preference to white garb. The Witch-King makes no mention of it in their brief encounter, but then again their meeting was brief. If he noticed anything, I doubt he had the time to pass this info through to Sauron. Unless they got some out of Saruman earlier, but it remains to be seen if Saruman in his bitterness saw much of changes in Gandalf.

It must have been pretty frightening for Sauron to consider the influence of the Valar. Regardless of what hint Sauron did perceive of it, it must surely have puzzled him as it sort of puzzles me. Why now? They never interfered with Sauron before, not even in the last Alliance. The sending of the wizards is about the only thing the Valar have done since the destruction of Númenor, and even that is rather indirect.

CAB is right, the fall of the WK to "no man" had been prophesized, not random. So it must have been in the Music, but then perhaps all the rest was as well? Maybe Sauron's fall was also simply inevitable? Maybe the ones who had played the music took care afterwards to see it all come to pass? There was a lot to set the Dark Lord thinking and to make him afraid.
It's difficult to say just what was in the Music, I'm inclined to take the stance that individual events were not sung in the Music, only themes and rules by which they would take place. But this position is debatable.

Well Earniel... if we go back, the lands were most likely Sauron's very own since he settled in Mordor around 1000 of the Second Age. Then Isildur quite brasenly built Minas Ithil right on Sauron's doorstep, annexing Mordor's lands unlawfully.:p The same was true for the East bank of Anduin and for Umbar and Harad that the nasty Gondorian imperialists:D had conquered around TA 1000.
Yes and no, Sauron only had Mordor itself as his land, while the other lands around were likely under influence, they were not his. Frankly I doubt Ithilien would have been as beautiful a land if it had been Sauron's. If the Exiles hadn't thought Sauron had perished in Númenor, I doubt they'd have built homes right on his doorstep, not in his land but at the borders. It was not the brightest choice of living space, if you ask me, but hey.;)

Umbar is a very difficult place to put ownership on, the Gondorean claim can indeed be considered sketchy after all this time. But Sauron pretty much never actually owned it, in my eyes. The Black Númenoreans were followers of Sauron, but not necessarily subjects.

Sauron doesn't own Harad in a similar way. If the lands of Umbar and Harad were included in the terms, then basically what Sauron is asking is more land than the Gondoreans actually can give since some of it was neither theirs or Sauron's in the first place. :p But that's the last I'm going to say on this matter. Sorry Gordis, but all these territory disputes make my head spin. ;)

[Gordis]

It would be interesting to know whether or how much Sauron knew of the prophecy and Gandalf's upgrade. He could have learned of the prophecy only through Denethor since it wasn't that widely known. But I have my doubts that Denethor had much faith in the whole thing or that Sauron could pry this from him.

Sauron knew of the Prophecy all right. See here in UT "the Hunt for the Ring"
When [the nazgul] came back to the Wold September [3018] had come; and there they met messengers from Barad-dûr conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay. For Sauron had now learned of the words of prophecy heard in Gondor, and the going forth of Boromir, of Saruman's deeds, and the capture of Gandalf.


Gandalf's upgrade may not have been evident, other than his sudden preference to white garb. ... Unless they got some out of Saruman earlier, but it remains to be seen if Saruman in his bitterness saw much of changes in Gandalf
I think Sauron soon learned that someone has done in the poor old Moria Barlog. (orcs from Moria met Mordor orcs at Part Galen). Who? - Obviously Gandalf. Maybe it was also reported that Gandalf had fallen.

Also Saruman must have given some explanations to the two nazgul sent to him. The first one went to investigate how the things were going and flew over Dol Baran. Another was dispatched to Isengard at top speed right after Sauron's video-conference with Pippin. I guess Saruman told all he knew to be left alone and not taken to Mordor for questioning. And the fact that Gandalf took on Saruman's White color and broke his staff and kicked him out of the Order meant that Gandalf now had the AUTHORITY and power from Up-High that he had never possessed before. Neither Saruman, nor Sauron could have missed it.

[Earniel]

Good points. I stand corrected, Sauron must have known something of both.

[The Gaffer]

Also Saruman must have given some explanations to the two nazgul sent to him. The first one went to investigate how the things were going and flew over Dol Baran. Another was dispatched to Isengard at top speed right after Sauron's video-conference with Pippin. I guess Saruman told all he knew to be left alone and not taken to Mordor for questioning. And the fact that Gandalf took on Saruman's White color and broke his staff and kicked him out of the Order meant that Gandalf now had the AUTHORITY and power from Up-High that he had never possessed before. Neither Saruman, nor Sauron could have missed it.
Not necessarily. Gandalf comments that Saruman still had power to resist the Nazgul from within Orthanc, and they were soon busy terrorising Minas Tirith.

Secondly, there was no telepathic link with Nazgul. All the news Sauron got was (through the Palantir) "a hobbit in Isengard = RING" + "heir of Elendil" = "EEK!")

[Gordis]

Not necessarily. Gandalf comments that Saruman still had power to resist the Nazgul from within Orthanc, and they were soon busy terrorising Minas Tirith.
Not necessarily, but likely, IMO. The two nazgul surely reached Isengard and saw the destruction, water, maybe Ents etc. So it was evident that Saruman indeed had problems.
I don't think that Saruman walked out onto the roof to meet the nazgul. He had been afraid to meet them in person even in September 3018, when he believed himself to be in Sauron's good graces - see UT:
Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, the Lord of Morgul halted before the Gate of Isengard. Then Saruman, already filled with wrath and fear by the escape of Gandalf, perceived the peril of standing between enemies, a known traitor to both. His dread was great, for his hope of deceiving Sauron, or at the least of receiving his favour in victory, was utterly lost. Now either he himself must gain the Ring or come to ruin and torment. But he was wary and cunning still, and he had ordered Isengard against just such an evil chance. The Circle of Isengard was too strong for even the Lord of Morgul and his company to assail without great force of war. Therefore to his challenge and demands the Morgul Lord received only the answer of the voice of Saruman, that spoke by some art as though it came from the Gate itself.

Most likely Saruman used his "intercom" voice again to talk with the messengers and give his explanations. I don't think he remained inside mute - not like him at all, as the only advantage he had was his persuasive voice. He must have used it to explain things.

And it is evident that Sauron believed him more or less, that he stopped thinking that Saruman had got the Ring. Otherwise the Mordor army would have marched on Isengard, not on Minas Tirith.;)

Secondly, there was no telepathic link with Nazgul. All the news Sauron got was (through the Palantir) "a hobbit in Isengard = RING" + "heir of Elendil" = "EEK!") No, I didn't imply any telepathic link. The nazgul inspecting Orthanc surely returned back to Barad Dur in 7-8 hours and reported.

[The Telcontarion]

Matt.10;34:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Just a little more proof on that point about jesus not being a pacifist.