The Heirlooms of Arnor

[Gordis]

This thread is inspired by the question in the Appendix trivia.

As you know, there were four heirlooms of the Kings of Arnor that were kept at Rivendell:
ring of Barahir, the shards of Narsil, the star of Elendil, and the sceptre of Annúminas.

Now we know the story, how the Ring of Barahir was saved from the shipwreck of Forochel.
‘But the Snowmen were uneasy; for they said that they smelled danger in the wind. And the chief of the Lossoth said to Arvedui: "Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here till the Witch-king goes home. For in summer his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long."
‘But Arvedui did not take his counsel. He thanked him, and at parting gave him his ring, saying: "This is a thing of worth beyond your reckoning. For its ancientry alone. It has no power, save the esteem in which those hold it who love my house. It will not help you, but if ever you are in need, my kin will ransom it with great store of all that you desire.�
'Yet the counsel of the Lossoth was good, by chance or by foresight; for the ship had not reached the open sea when a great storm of wind arose, and came with blinding snow out of the North; and it drove the ship back upon the ice and piled ice up against it. Even the mariners of CÃ*rdan were helpless, and in the night the ice crushed the hull, and the ship foundered. So perished Arvedui Last-king, and with him the palantÃ*ri were buried in the sea.' LOTR, Appendix A
So, the Ring of Barahir was with Arvedui during his flight from Fornost, and was saved only by pure chance. But what about the other Heirlooms? How come they were not with Arvedui? Were they held safe in Rivendell before the Witch-King attacked Arthedain? But why then wasn't the Ring of Barahir kept there as well?
And there is this quote from UT Every king and the chieftains that followed them in Arnor had borne the Elendilmir down even to Elessar himself; but though it was a jewel of great beauty, made by Elven-smiths in Imladris for Valandil Isildur's son, it had not the ancientry nor potency of the one that had been lost when Isildur fled into the dark and came back no more.
So why wasn't this Elendilmir no 2. with Arvedui?

[Snowdog]

I'm not sure if anything further is written on this, but I always considered the fact that King Arvedui and his sons were fighting the forces of the Witch-King and hoping that a somewhat orderly retreat was made by the people of Fornost. I don't think a King going into battle would carry all his heirlooms. He took the ring which in itself showed that he was King and could be managed easily in battle gear. The Septre of Annúminas and Valandil's Elendilmir may have gone with the evacuation of Queen Firiel? Also, the shards of Narsil may have already been in keeping in Imladris, but if not, they too would have been packed out during the evacuation. Since King Arvedui and his guard battled in rearguard, allowing his sons and the rest of the people of Arnor to gain the Elven lands to the west. The heirlooms would have been kept safe there, and after the defeat of the Witch King, Aranarth and his brothers in choosing the way of the rangers, committed the heirlooms to the safekeeping in Imladris. That is my theory anyway.

[Gordis]

I'm not sure if anything further is written on this, but I always considered the fact that King Arvedui and his sons were fighting the forces of the Witch-King and hoping that a somewhat orderly retreat was made by the people of Fornost. I don't think a King going into battle would carry all his heirlooms. He took the ring which in itself showed that he was King and could be managed easily in battle gear. The Septre of Annúminas and Valandil's Elendilmir may have gone with the evacuation of Queen Firiel? Also, the shards of Narsil may have already been in keeping in Imladris, but if not, they too would have been packed out during the evacuation. Since King Arvedui and his guard battled in rearguard, allowing his sons and the rest of the people of Arnor to gain the Elven lands to the west. The heirlooms would have been kept safe there, and after the defeat of the Witch King, Aranarth and his brothers in choosing the way of the rangers, committed the heirlooms to the safekeeping in Imladris. That is my theory anyway.

Yes it is a sound theory, but it doesn't explain why Arvedui had to evacuate the two Palantiri himself. If there was some sorting of objects, wasn't it possible to sent at least the heavy Amon-Sul stone directly to Lindon? And why hadn't Arvediu taken the light Elendilmir with him? It was a token of royalty, fit only for the King himself. Isildur carried the previous one with him, wore it always, actually.

[Snowdog]

Well, maybe Arvedui saw a need to use the Palantiri? Or surely there would have been some chaos in the retreat from Fornost, so possibly they were overlooked in the initial rush to get out of the city and Arvedui and his guardsmen collected them before finally abandoning the city. As for the Elendilmir of Valandil, Surely Arvedui knew the history of his forefather Isildur, and wished not to repeat it with the loss of the Elendilmir in battle.

Its hard to put reason in behind why one heirloom was worn by the king and another not in a part of the Middle Earth story that surely was not fully written out by Tolkien. We know that the ring of Barahir and the Palantiri went with the King, and the others were saved by other means. We can only propose theories as to how it may have taken place.

Anybody else have any thoughts on this? Valandil, surely you have something to say about this. :)

[Gordis]

Its hard to put reason in behind why one heirloom was worn by the king and another not in a part of the Middle Earth story that surely was not fully written out by Tolkien. We know that the ring of Barahir and the Palantiri went with the King, and the others were saved by other means. We can only propose theories as to how it may have taken place.

Anybody else have any thoughts on this? Valandil, surely you have something to say about this. :)

I know that there are no more Tolkien's writings on the subject, so everything is pure conjecture. That makes it so interesting. :) ;)

I am really looking forward to Val's explanations, I know he has a lot of thoughts on the Fornost battle;) .

[Snowdog]

Yeah, Valandil's conjecture on the whole subject should be interesting especially outside his fanfic stories.

I was glad to see a good new Tolkien book topic appear and I thank you for that! :)
So Gordis, what are your thoughts on "the Fornost battle"?
It was really wider in scope than just Fornost. I will add that if Fornost was attacked totally and completely without warning then more likely than not the place would have been surrounded beseiged, and ended in destruction of all that remained. The fact that the heirlooms got out with no matter who, and the fact the King was able to do rearguard battle to allow his sons and many other folk to escape west says that it was otherwise. This is why I see that despite the armies of Angmar coming down on Fornost in force, there had to be a watch that was initially overrun, but got some warning to the city before their arrival at the gates.

[Gordis]

I have some ideas on the matter - I will post them soon.

But Val! - plase come out and say something. They are YOUR heirlooms, after all!

[Nurvingiel]

The only thing I know about Arvedui is from reading Valandil's excellent fanfic! :D

You have a good point Snowdog. Maybe Arvedui did have a bit of a warning of the attack, so he told a trusted lieutenant to sneak out the back with the royal heirlooms.

Maybe it broke his heart that he couldn't sneak out the children in the same way, because a large group would be noticed, while his capable lieutenant could get away unseen.

[Gordis]

Maybe it broke his heart that he couldn't sneak out the children in the same way, because a large group would be noticed, while his capable lieutenant could get away unseen.
Well he did sneak out his children, at least his heir, who ended up in Lindon.

But the Palantiri he took out himself, or so it seems. Unless... they were sneaked out by a tunnel separately, and then Arvedui joined this group to protect them.

[Snowdog]

I get the impression from reading the Appendices that Arvedui's sons were full grown and fighting. At least the eldest Aranarth was. Nurvingiel, you should read the account in Appendix A in the Return of the King book and not depend solely on Valandil's fanfic. There is actually quite a bit about Arvedui there. :)

[Gordis]

I was glad to see a good new Tolkien book topic appear and I thank you for that!
So Gordis, what are your thoughts on "the Fornost battle"?
Thanks, Snowdog! Well, here are some notes I have written some months ago on the subject.


The war TA 1974-75 and the fate of Fornost

First question: When did Angmar attack?

In November-December 1974, or in January-February 1974? We don’t know, but there is a difference of almost a year between those dates.
In 1974 the power of Angmar arose again, and the Witch-king came down upon Arthedain before winter was ended- LOTR Appendix A.

“Before winter was ended� sounds like January-February 1974 to me. On the other hand, after Fornost was captured, Aranarth fled to Cirdan (takes 2-3 weeks?), Cirdan immediately send a ship North and “after many days� (but hardly a whole year!) it found Arvedui and it was March 1975. So, perhaps after all, we should date Angmar’a assault end of 1974.

Second question: Was Fornost captured in an assault, or abandoned and overrun?
The Witch-king over-runs Arthedain and takes Fornost.- Tale of Years

He captured Fornost, and drove most of the remaining Dúnedain over the Lune; among them were the sons of the king. Appendix A.
I read it that way: he drove away those who were outside, but killed all who were inside.

Fornost was CAPTURED. It is not said that Fornost was abandoned or evacuated. It was not the way of Dunedain (and not a way of Middle-Age warfare in general) to evacuate their strong places in front of an approaching foe. Look at Minas Tirith. According to Beregond, they had secret paths leading into the mountains and secret refuges there. Denethor knew, the approaching force was overwhelming, but he had not a single thought to evacuate the City. Neither had Gandalf, Faramir etc. No, I believe Fornost was captured by an open assault exactly as Minas Tirith.

Since the Fall of Arnor, Fornost was referred to as the “Deadmen’s Dike�. So there were lots of corpses hastily buried in the dike, for sanitary reasons, as the Witch King and his army took residence in Fornost. It could have happened only when Angmar took Fornost. There was no second assault on Fornost in 1975, as the Witch-King left Fornost to meet Earnur, and never returned there. Why, by the way, has he not chosen to remain in Fornost to await the Gondorean army behind its walls? Because, I believe, the fortifications of Fornost were ruined during the first assault.

And the last point: in the war of 1974-75 Arnor population was reduced dramatically. There was no way even to re-install the Kingdom. Now, most of that population was concentrated in Fornost. If they had time to flee, the effect would not have been so disastrous. I believe, Fornost has become the mass grave for most of the Arnorean population. Actually, there is no evidence, that even Firiel had escaped from Fornost!

I think, when Angmar forces approached Fornost, there was some warning: after all Arvedui has foreseen the war and even pleaded Gondor for help already in 1973. Also he had two palantiri at his disposal and, I bet, a vigilant watch on the walls. But the Witch-King also was not without resources of his own...
Arvedui's sons and mounted knights likely led a sortie, to stop the approaching Angmarians, but were unable to scatter the enemies, or even to return back. They were driven away, and so escaped over the Lune. Then the enemy surrounded Fornost, broke the gates and there was a general melee in the streets. Many perished, but the King escaped leading a desperate sortie through the gates, or using an underground tunnel leading North into the hills (remember that Minas Tirith, built at the same time as Fornost had passages into the Mountains).

Third question: What happened to the Heirlooms of Arnor?

The heirlooms of Arnor, namely Narcil, Elendilmir and the Sceptre of Annuminas, probably were evacuated before - in 1973, when Arvedui learned of the imminent danger. Arvedui didn't really need them with him. I believe they were sent to Lindon, not to Imladris, considering that the Last Bridge must have been held by Angmar. Queen Firiel probably went to Lindon as well, as there is no mention of her in the description of the flight from Fornost.
But Arvedui wore the Ring of Barahir and he had two palantiri: the big Amon Sul one, used for long-distance communication with Gondor, and a small one, from Fornost. Understandably, he couldn't sent them to Lindon earlier, as he needed the big stone to reiterate his pleas for help to Earnil of Gondor and to watch the surroundings.

IF Arvedui and his sons had time to agree to go different ways, it is most strange that Arvedui took BOTH palantiri with him, instead of sending at least the HEAVY one (from Amon Sul) directly to Cirdan.
They were perfect spheres, appearing when at rest to be made of solid glass or crystal deep black in hue. At smallest they were about a foot in diameter, but some, certainly the Stones of Osgiliath and Amon Sûl, were much larger and could not be lifted by one man.- UT, The Palantiri
No one would carry this stone with him on a simple sortie - only in desperate flight.

Fourth question: Did Arvedui abandon his people to save the Stones?

We know Arvedui fled, hunted and dying from hunger:
But King Arvedui held out upon the North Downs until the last, and then fled north with some of his guard; and they escaped by the swiftness of their horses.
For a while Arvedui hid in the tunnels of the old dwarf-mines near the far end of the Mountains, but he was driven at last by hunger to seek the help of the Lossoth, the Snowmen of Forochel.

Fornost reminds me of the Gladden Fields episode. Isildur had several objects that he could not leave in the hands of the Enemy. Saving them was much more important than being disgraced by fleeing. First Isildur sent off Ohtar with shards of Narsil and the ring of Barahir. Then he had to run himself leaving his men to die alone, just to keep the Ring and Elendilmir.
Isildur has done it before. When Sauron attacked Minas Ithil, he escaped with the Palantir and the fruit of the White Tree. I don’t thing that M. Ithil was evacuated. Many must have died there.

Now the Palantiri were as important as the Rings, White Tree and the crown jewels, mentioned above. Leaving any in the hands of the enemy was perilous, and could render all the other stones useless. Especially it applied to the Stone of Amon Sul, the Master stone of the North, which could even EVESDROP on communication held by two lesser stones(UT). Abandoning it to the Witch King could put Gondor in danger.

When the Gates were broken, and the enemy horde was in the city, Arvedui understood that all was lost. Like Isildur, he had something dearer than his life, maybe dearer than honour: he had two palantiri. He abandoned his people and escaped, saving the stones.

That is how I picture Fornost

The Wars in Beleriand were the Wars of the Jewels, the Second Age 1700 war in Eregion and the LOTR war were the Wars of the Rings. Arnor civil wars and Angmar wars were basically the wars of the PALANTIRI. Everyone wanted them, Arthedain, Cardolan, Rhudaur and Angmar. The Witch King almost got the Master stone of Amon Sul in 1409. Now he attacked Fornost, I am sure, trying to approach it in secret to assure that nobody would escape and carry the stones away, as it had happened on Amon Sul. (As a side note, in 2000 he succeeded to surround Minas Ithil so well, that nobody got out and after 2 years of the siege he got a Palantir at last.)


Comments, please?

[Snowdog]

Very good essay gordis!
I think it was toward the end of 1974 when the forces of Angmar closed onto Fornost, but as you say, I think there had been war and skirmishing between Arthedain and Angmar for years. The Dúnedain year sended with Mettarë (Dec 21) and began with Yestarë (Dec 22) wich was the days of the winter solstice, so the November-December timeframe fits.

I have a hard time believing that King Arvedui would abandon his people in Fornost just to escape with the Palantiri. It would have been an assault similar to Helms Deep or Minas Tirith, and fierce fighting would have gone on inside the walls after they were broken. Remnents would have escaped with the King via secret ways into the hills. There in the North Downs they obviously had horses, and they fought on allowing any who could to escape being over run. Not all could have made it out and were slain, and some were slain outside the city, but the 'Deadman's Dike' was likely from all the slain Dunedain and soldiers of Angmar, be they hillmen or orcs. There was just so many dead and the walls were destroyed that it was not a place for the living to remain, nor was there reason to.

I agree that the Arnorian civil wars and war with Angmar were the Palantiri wars. :)

[Gordis]

Thanks, Snowdog!


Remnents would have escaped with the King via secret ways into the hills.)

Yes, but escaping during the melee in the city - isn't it abandoning his people all the same? Not cowardly abandoning, but still?

At the Gladden Isildur left with the Ring when there was no hope as well, but he still felt bad about it.

[Snowdog]

Yes, I agree and thats basicly what I was meaning. The wording hit me wrong is all.

[CAB]

Very nice Gordis. What I thought was especially interesting was your idea that the Arnor civil wars and the wars of Angmar were wars of the Palantiri. I had never considered that before. Maybe the taking of Minas Ithil should be included.

After reading this I thought about some of the important similarities shared by the Silmarils, Rings, and Palantiri: wars fought over them; possibly all made by Feanor and his grandson (Gandalf suggests to Pippin that Feanor may have made the Palantiri), with the exception of the One Ring; all preserve something from the past ( Silmarils-light of the two trees, Palantiri-images of past, Rings-made largely for preservation); I’m sure there are more.

One interesting parallel between just the Rings and Palantiri is Sauron’s ability to use them to corrupt and / or dominate other users.

I suppose that the Witch King must have been acting in his own interests during these wars since Sauron was not strong at that time. Probably he wanted to use the Palantiri the same way the Dunedain did since he couldn’t use them to dominate other users like Sauron could. In the Unfinished Tales section on the Palantiri it says that Sauron had no servants whose mental powers were greater than “even Denethor’s�. On a side question, what does this last statement mean? Is Denethor really that extraordinary or, more likely, is the Witch King weakened mentally due to his enslavement to his Ring, or something else? I wonder how the Witch King felt when Sauron returned to claim the Witch King’s hard earned Palantir.

[Gordis]

CAB your post and questions are so very interesting, that I decided to open a special thread to reply to it, as it will lead us far from the Heirlooms of Arnor and even from the Fornost battle. :)

The new thread is here:The Wars of the Palantiri, the Witch-King and the Ithil Stone (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=13090)

[Snowdog]

So there is only speculation as to why this heirloom went this way and another went that way. I look at all the missing pieces that J.R.R. Tolkien never wrote (If only he didn't have a day-job as a professor ;)) as the lost scrolls that were sacked and burned in the invasion of Arnor. It really only leaves each to their own speculation based on what they read and how they interpreted it.

[Gordis]

Sadly it is true. We can only speculate, unless some more pages by Tolkien would be discovered.

BTW, another speculation:

The Sceptre of Andunie was later called that of "Annuminas" but never that of "Fornost". Perhaps it was kept in Rivendell since the division of Arnor? I can easily imagine that the new Kings of Cardolan and Rhudaur didn't accept to leave the sceptre to Arthedain.


A sidenote: nave you noticed that this is the thread of blue avatars?
CAB, you definitely need an avvie, and better a blue one!

[Snowdog]

I'm afraid Christopher most likely combed through all the usable notes and such he could find.

I think the Septre kept the name because it was revered as that of Andünie of Numenor by all the Dúnedain, and it remained with the elder son's house after the break-up of Arnor. Just my speculation.

[Gordis]

I think the Septre kept the name because it was revered as that of Andünie of Numenor by all the Dúnedain, and it remained with the elder son's house after the break-up of Arnor. Just my speculation.
It was called "of Annuminas" but not "of Fornost" Why?

[Valandil]

As Gordis and I have previously discussed via email, I think that Angmar attacked Fornost late in the year 1974 - early in the 1974-75 winter. It seems to contradict JRRT's direct statement about them attacking before a particular winter (which seems to be 73-74) had passed - but it works much better with Arvedui's attempted rescue from Forochel by Cirdan's ship, after being aided by the Lossoth (which appears to be clearly in 1975). There's no reason Arvedui would have waited up there through a summer and into the following winter, after fleeing Fornost.

I think the inconsistences stem from the apparent fact that JRRT never really got back to this story to firm it all up.

I think the forces of Angmar were content to mostly hang out in Fornost in the rest of the winter of 74-75. I bet they sent out raids to terrorize the surrounding areas (including Bree and the Shire), but I doubt they did any other full-scale assaults. They were probably waiting for Spring of 1975 - but the forces of Gondor got to them first.

I believe my fanfic account is a reasonable enough interpretation of what happened. There are enough inconsistencies already - and enough loose threads, that it's mostly plausible. However - there could easily be thousands of other interpretations. Gordis certainly spotted some flaws in my account though - so I may re-think it. I like to hope it's dramatic enough. :p (if anyone is interested - it's in Letter #11 of "Letters of Firiel" - which you can find from the link in my sig)

There could have been other heirlooms of Arnor. One notable one I think of: the Sword of Isildur was apparently recovered in the search for him (see "The Disaster of the Gladden" in UT). I would think this would be highly treasured - and maybe was held nearly as mighty as Narsil - and yet was unbroken. I suspect it could easily have been lost at the deaths of any of the Kings slain between Valandil and Arvedui (there were three in between who were slain) - or it could have gone into the drink with Arvedui. It might have even passed into Cardolan or Rhudaur at the Division of Arnor (esp if one of the other sons of Earendur had it in his keeping at the time - possession probably being nine-tenths of the law even then).

"Scepter of ... Annuminas" - interesting. Sort of goes with my theory that the Northern Dunedain revered Annuminas. I think the years of Arnor would definitely have been viewed as "The Glory Days" at the time of Arthedain. Witness their attempts to reclaim the other portions of Arnor when the line of Isildur died out in those kingdoms.

[Gordis]

Val, great that you have re-appeared!

I agree with all your points but this one:
I think the forces of Angmar were content to mostly hang out in Fornost in the rest of the winter of 74-75. I bet they sent out raids to terrorize the surrounding areas (including Bree and the Shire), but I doubt they did any other full-scale assaults. They were probably waiting for Spring of 1975 - but the forces of Gondor got to them first.

I don't think the Forces of Gondor came to Arnor in spring 1975. More likely it was in autumn of this year.
Apparently, the Gondoreans started to prepare the fleet in earnest only since they heard of the fall of Arnor, not when Arvedui first asked them to do that in 1973. I think Earnur didn't mind to see the pretender to his throne dead: he did nothing to prevent it :p . But to have the Witch-King ruling Arnor was not safe for Gondor, so Earnil decided to strike before the Witch-King could establish a strong state in place of the ailing kingdom of Athedain.

And the Witch King was not a raider in Arthedain, he came to stay:(The Witch-king of Angmar) was now dwelling, it is said, in Fornost, which he had filled with evil folk, usurping the house and rule of the kings. - LOTR App.A.
I believe he was clever enough not to destroy his future kingdom ;) needlessly. So, "raiding and terrorizing" the surrounding areas was unlikely.

There is no mention of the Shire being destroyed:
The Shire-folk survived, though war swept over them and most of them fled into hiding So it seems that at least some troops marched through the Shire. Nobody knows though, were they Angmarians or Gondorians - probably the hobbits never bothered to ask before running away and hiding.

I am sure that the Witch-King would have tried to introduce better order and proper management into Arnor. Because the management under the descendants of Isildur was pretty poor :p :

For it was in the one thousand six hundred and first year of the Third Age that the Fallohide brothers, Marcho and Blanco, set out from Bree; and having obtained permission from the high king at Fornost (Argeleb II), they crossed the brown river Baranduin with a great following of Hobbits. They passed over the Bridge of Stonebows, that had been built in the days of the power of the North Kingdom, and they took all the land beyond to dwell in, between the river and the Far Downs. All that was demanded of them was that they should keep the Great Bridge in repair, and all other bridges and roads, speed the king's messengers, and acknowledge his lordship. -LOTR Prologue
Now it is apparent that the noble King Argeleb has not even asked them to pay TAXES :eek: ! No wonder Arnor was falling to pieces! :D

It is wrong, IMHO to describe the Witch-King and Sauron's intentions as purely destructive: In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit. L# 183 Notes on W. H. Auden's review of The Return of the King

I await your answer, O High King! :)

[Snowdog]

Well, fan-fic accounts aside (I have my own ;) ), personal opinions on this era based on the published fragments are all we have. I am of the opinion that the Witch King's purpose was to destroy the Dúnedain and any and all symbolism of their presence. I think they swept west in pursuit of the Dúnedain as fast and as far as they could. Arvedui and his men hid in the mointains while the forces of Angmar spent their strength in the winter and outran their supply lines. The King then came to the camp of the Lossoth in harsh winter weather, though this most likely covered their movement from any lingering enemies, and the spring brought the armada of Gondor and the offensive that cleared Eriador of the Angmarian armies. I always believed that the great offensive of Angmar came in the late fall/early winter of 1974 after the summer of 1974 passed.

Edit: I forgot to Answer your question. it was the past post of the 1st page and I missed it.It was called "of Annuminas" but not "of Fornost" Why? Tradition. Elendil made the city of Annúminas his seat of government, and with the new realm came new traditions. Numenor had been destroyed, but they had survived and they had the Sceptre of Andunie which Elendiil decided to use as a symbol of the high kingship, which became Arnorian tradition. The choice of moving the seat of power to Fornost was more a defensive one with the declining population able to be more easily defended there.

[Gordis]

Thanks for the reply, Snowdog.

Arvedui and his men hid in the mointains while the forces of Angmar spent their strength in the winter and outran their supply lines.
That seems strange to me. The Angmarians were not spending their strength in winter, but enjoyed the shelter of Fornost.
Do you really think they depended on their supply lines all the way from Angmar? Wasn't there any food etc. nearer?- in Bree, in the Shire, in the country surrounding Fornost? I think they spent the winter quite well. :)

[Snowdog]

Ok, if the army of Angmar spent the winter lounging around in Fornost, then why did Arvedui have to hide out in the dwarf caves and seek help from the Lossoth? They could have simply rode south and over to the Grey Havens. So I have a hard time seeing that as a scenario.

Also, moving armies require provision, be they elves, orcs, or men. Looting would have helped, but would not be able on its own to sustain an army, so yes I think they were dependent on their supply lines.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Ok, if the army of Angmar spent the winter lounging around in Fornost, then why did Arvedui have to hide out in the dwarf caves and seek help from the Lossoth? They could have simply rode south and over to the Grey Havens. So I have a hard time seeing that as a scenario.
The Witch-King probably had parties searching for Arvedui so it wouldn't have been that easy. It also states that Arvedui's horse had died. It doesn't give a specific date, but my guess would be just before Arvedui was forced into the dwarf caves, because otheriwse he would probably have just ridden straight for Lindon.
Another question which is annoying me is whether or not Glorfindel and the army he bought from Imladris were fighting just before they left for Fornost. I may be wrong but I doubt Cirdan would have sent his forces and the Gondoreans all the way to Imladris and then to Fornost, for all they knew Imladris could have been taken as it was under seige at some point during the War.

[Valandil]

I agree with TD about search parties. They wouldn't feel the need to have the whole army out in force. Just some unlucky devils out giving chase.

And... it was Angmar's forces that drove them to the abandoned Dwarf mines, but it was hunger that drove them from the mines to the Lossoth.

[Gordis]

I think Angmar forces, being northerners, weathered the winter pretty well. Otherwise, the WK wouldn't have the cheek to come and meet Gondoreans in the open field.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It may have been self confidence more than anything else. The WK's power was the strongest in the winter and Earnur would have been no match for him. I think if he had clear news of Glorfindels troops approaching he may have thought twice about it, but he may have been under the impression that Imladris was still under siege.

[Gordis]

It may have been self confidence more than anything else. The WK's power was the strongest in the winter and Earnur would have been no match for him. I think if he had clear news of Glorfindels troops approaching he may have thought twice about it, but he may have been under the impression that Imladris was still under siege.

So you think the battle of Fornost was in winter?
Val believes it was in spring, Snowdog also, I said autumn, and you say winter! ;)
Summer, anyone? :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Summer I think is definitly out of the question. Remember what the Chief of Lossoth said.

Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here til the Witch King goes home. But now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long.

[Gordis]

Summer I think is definitly out of the question. Remember what the Chief of Lossoth said.
TD, this quote refers not to the Battle of Fornost, but to the drowning of Arvedui in Forochel. This event is dated: March 1975.

The battle of Fornost was after that, but when? Still in spring, in summer or in autumn?
By the way, the actual meeting of Glorfindel-Earnur and the WK was not near Fornost, but far to the North-East, because the WK was retreating to Carn-Dum. Yet there is no mention of snow. (And this far North the snow probably lies from mid October till mid-May)