Confrontation on Orodruin - 3441 Second Age

[Valandil]

As part of the story goes, it was at Orodruin that Sauron fell at the end of the War of the Last Alliance - slaying both Elendil (the High King of Men) and Gil-galad (The High King of Elves) as he fell mortally wounded - and it was then that Isildur cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger while Elrond and Cirdan looked on.

But why did this happen at Orodruin? The great battle of the war had been fought seven years before - on the Plain of Dagorlad. This had been a fierce battle, but a decisive victory for Elves and Men. From that point on, the "war" mostly settled into a seven-year seige of the Dark Tower.

So how did this last action come to be fought at Orodruin - which was at least 20-30 miles from Barad-dur? Why were only the principal characters involved, rather than armies? Was it a duel, agreed to by both sides? Did Sauron go out there on his own to take on the leaders of Elves and Men? Had the seige finally broken through, and all (including Sauron) were scattering? Did Gil-galad and Elendil perceive Sauron's flight there and "cut him off"?

And why would Sauron go THAT way?

[Old toby's wicked weed]

is it being symbolism Mr Valandil??

[Valandil]

Story-wise, I think it's very powerful, dramatically.

So - I'm just trying to think how it might work best 'historically' :)

[Old toby's wicked weed]

but is not is the history from the story belonging Mr Valandil?

[Radagast The Brown]

I don't think it Sauron was beaten in Orodruin; why do you think he was? As far as I know Sauron faught them and killed Elendil and Gid Galad outside of Barad-Dur, and later he went to Orodruin as Elrond and Cirdan told him to destroy the Ring... but he didn't. (I'm not sure about the last part)

We don't really know whether or not other characters, other than the principal, faught Sauron... and if they have, I suppose they died.

It is said that Sauron was forced to go out of Barad Dur and fight himself... I assume it means Barad Dur fell, or almost fell, and he had no choice.

[Valandil]

In the chapter "The Council of Elrond", Elrond himself says:

"...I beheld the last conflict on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own."

And, after a statement by Boromir, Elrond speaks again, ending this way:

"...It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He stood alone by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Cirdan stood, and I..."

It WAS at Orodruin, and it seems like nobody else was close enough to see what was going on.

[Valandil]

PS: I'm waiting for Olmer. I might have a theory to *shock* even him! :p

[Gordis]

I don't think it Sauron was beaten in Orodruin; why do you think he was? As far as I know Sauron faught them and killed Elendil and Gid Galad outside of Barad-Dur, and later he went to Orodruin as Elrond and Cirdan told him to destroy the Ring... but he didn't. (I'm not sure about the last part)
:D :D
Evil Sauron, never accepted good advice!


I think, Sauron either tried to escape via the Ungol Pass, or needed the Mountain for some dark devilty. The powere of the Ring increased near the place of its making.

Anyway, I presume he left Barad Dur invisible, and so escaped detection initially. Also he may have used a secret tunnel.That permitted him to pass through the encircling army and travel that long without being challenged.

Now the company that assailed him must have seen him even in the world of Shadows. Gil-Galad and Cirdan had Rings of power. On the other hand, they couldn't have worn their Rings, as Sauron held the One...

Where were the Calaquendi elves, by the way? Glorfindel? Gildor? Not in the first ranks, as usual...

Another question: where were the nazgul? They fled East after the battle, as we know, but have they been at Orodruin or not? Why haven't they intervened? Or were they holding back all the rest of the Alliance Army, permitting Sauron to have only five against him, not thousands?

Or were they left behind in Barad Dur?

More questions than answers.

[Olmer]

So how did this last action come to be fought at Orodruin - which was at least 20-30 miles from Barad-dur? Why were only the principal characters involved, rather than armies?
I would say that the One was the final link connecting four primeval nature forces:air, fire, water and what?...earth.Therefore Vilya, Nenya and Narya together would overcome, say, Ardia.
But the problem have been in the owner. If it would be an elf or a mortal, it would be no problem, but maia is a pretty strong adversary. So they got together all the power of the Rings (Galadriel, surely, was sending her ring's vibes from Lorien) to block the power of the One and force Sauron to come out and fight without magic support. In such struggle of powers you don't need a big army:the major players and a witness would be sufficient.

[Gordis]

Olmer, I am sure thar the power of the Three combined could not match the One. Actually, I believe the One is stronger than all the 19 combined. :)

Otherwise, what was all the fuss in Eregion in the SA about? They had all the 19 rings - and couldn't use them BECAUSE they were controlled by the One.

EDIT: oh, and Val, do tell us about your shocking theory!

[Old toby's wicked weed]

so Mr Olmer has been AND come. What ibe your shock theory now mr Valandil?

[Valandil]

Well - it's almost 'tongue-in-cheek' - but no offense intended to anyone. :p

(oh - and Olmer - you keep forgetting, but Galadriel wouldn't be Queen in Lorien for almost another 2000 years! ;) )

Anyway...

Suppose Sauron was trying to destroy the Ring by throwing it into the fire.

And the Elves were trying to stop him from doing it.

Just wanted to see if that works.

It's a bit weird - and it goes against what we know - or think we know - of the players - but it fits the circumstances.

Perhaps it was even along these lines: Sauron saw that the seige was having great effect. He did not KNOW whether it would bring about his downfall or not if it was destroyed, but he most definitely did NOT want his Precious to fall into enemy hands.

Now - if Olmer's other theories about the Elves wanting to keep the One intact - but safe, would they not want to prevent its willful destruction even then? In order to keep the Three empowered?

Anyway... it's a thought. Someone on another board asked the question of why this encounter happened THERE. I gave this answer, in short - but none has replied to it yet. But I knew my Entmoot friends would like to hear it. :D

[Valandil]

PS: further thoughts...

If the Ring's destruction were to be of his own devising, would Sauron have been planning on recalling to himself the power of his which he had passed into the One Ring at its making?

And... did he hope to thereby empower himself further, while robbing the lesser rings of their power - thereby undercutting his foes?

Perhaps this was one reason he would never expect his enemies to attempt to destroy the Ring 3000 years later - it was in attempting to do this very thing himself that they had stopped him!

(do I at least get a gold star from this one?) :D

[Gordis]

It is really a bit far-fetched, IMHO.

The nazgul managed to escape intact from Barad-Dur and kept their rings. Why couldn't Sauron go with them and keep his?

Then Sauron was "killed" once in the Downfall. He should know, that only the Ring helped him gain a new shape.

As for means to spite the Elves... Don't forget that they could not USE their Rings as long as Sauron kept his. So, the Three were pretty useless throughout the Second Age. Only when the One was lost, Galadriel could start to make her private paradise in ME. :D

BTW, I may be wrong, but didn't Galadriel go to Lorien from Eregion before SA 1600? It is in UT. It looks like till the End of the Second Age she mostly dwelt in Belfalas , and visited Rivendell, but who can tell where she might be found at any given moment - namely at the end of the siege of Barad Dur? Perhaps in Lorien, especially if Amroth was her son (as in some of the versions in the UT).

[Valandil]

You know - I think you're right that she was there to accept the 'hand-off' of the Three from Celebrimbor. But - Amroth was not really her son in the finalized canon.

She must have spent about 6000 years as a 'houseguest who wouldn't go away' - at one place or another.

- - - - - - -

G: "Well Celeborn - I guess we've worn out our welcome with King Amroth."

C: "Yeah - he never really bought that line about our being his parents, did he?"

G: "Oh, but that gave us a convenient excuse not to marry Celebrian off to him."

C: "So... where to now? Looks like the Dunedain have over-run our old home-on-the-lake."

G: "I was thinking that Rivendell might be a nice change of pace. Besides... Elrond is still single, isn't he?"

:D ;)

[Gordis]

But - Amroth was not really her son in the finalized canon.
Is there such a thing as "finalized canon"? ;) :p


She must have spent about 6000 years as a 'houseguest who wouldn't go away' - at one place or another.

- - - - - - -

G: "Well Celeborn - I guess we've worn out our welcome with King Amroth."

C: "Yeah - he never really bought that line about our being his parents, did he?"

G: "Oh, but that gave us a convenient excuse not to marry Celebrian off to him."

C: "So... where to now? Looks like the Dunedain have over-run our old home-on-the-lake."

G: "I was thinking that Rivendell might be a nice change of pace. Besides... Elrond is still single, isn't he?"

:D ;)

LOL! :D

So very true. And what a life for a one who came and remained in ME to have realms of her own! :evil:

[Gordis]

If the Ring's destruction were to be of his own devising, would Sauron have been planning on recalling to himself the power of his which he had passed into the One Ring at its making?

And... did he hope to thereby empower himself further, while robbing the lesser rings of their power - thereby undercutting his foes?
We have no idea if it were possible or not. If it were, Sauron probably would do it.

But, both Feanor with Silmarils, and Celebrimbor with Rings, never could bring themselves to destroy their greatest masterpieces. Even if asked by the Valar. Even if it put them into peril...

And of all Sauron's works the Ring was the greatest "the only fair"...
Wasn't Sauron subject to the same feeling?

[Valandil]

Don't know ma'am - just looking at the facts.

Why Orodruin? :)

[Gordis]

Why?
Several possible reasons:
It is canon that the Ring grew stronger closer to the Fire of its making. Didn't Sauron need all his strength alone against 5? I think he had no supernatural physical power, not like in PJ's film.

Alternatively, he may have been making to Ungol Pass and was stopped and surrounded at Orodruin, with the Mountain at his back.

Yet, alternatively, if it were in winter, it might have been pretty cold in Mordor, and the Alliance leaders made their camp on the slopes of a warm mountain. :) So, Sauron came at them, where they were stationed.

[Olmer]

Olmer, I am sure thar the power of the Three combined could not match the One. Actually, I believe the One is stronger than all the 19 combined. :)
Otherwise, what was all the fuss in Eregion in the SA about? They had all the 19 rings - and couldn't use them BECAUSE they were controlled by the One.

I am sure that at the beginning, considering the existence of the principal elements in the rings, the power had been equal and the One was just locking the chain of the Rings of Power, nothing more, so all 4 wielders were controlling the owners of others, lesser rings. Celebrimbor was just belated and was unpleasantly surprised by realization that Sauron already made it, including himself in the network designed only for the most eligible Eldar. And even so the Elves did not mind too much to be in the same league with Sauron and to divide the dominion on the Middle-earth. Any way they enjoyed undivided superiority 10 years until Sauron invited himself in the company.
1590.The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
1600. Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin.Celebrimbor perceives the design of Sauron. (RotK Appendix B)
Did the makers in anger destroy the Rings? I 'm sure THEY knew how to do it. Nope. Power corrupts, and they couldn't bring themselves to give up such just gained dominance.
1693.War of the Elves and Sauron begins.The Three Rings are hidden
For 100 years the Rings have been in use.
Not all the rings were lying idle. The Elves already began an active distribution of the Seven amongs dwarves. And I think that "all the fuss " began because Sauron was not agree on the way how the rings were dealt out .
oh - and Olmer - you keep forgetting, but Galadriel wouldn't be Queen in Lorien for almost another 2000 years!
Whoever...She owned the Ring which could perceive all the thoughts of the wearers of other rings, and, as it shows on the Fellowship's experience in Lorien, she could easily "play" with minds of mortals. With such ability you are holding the power no matter where or whom you are.
Suppose Sauron was trying to destroy the Ring by throwing it into the fire.And the Elves were trying to stop him from doing it.
If the Ring's destruction were to be of his own devising, would Sauron have been planning on recalling to himself the power of his which he had passed into the One Ring at its making?
:eek: That the wild theory!! You beat me! :( Do we have a trophy for a wildest assumption?;)
But it is something in it...What if Sauron , upon realizing that creation of the objects capable to disbalance the structure of the world, made by Ery, wouldn't stay from him unnoticed for long, and as a maia from ainur's song, he foresaw the wrath of God, leashed out on dwellers of Middle-Earth. What if he was trying to prevent another "Numenor"?
Wasn't Sauron subject to the same feeling?No. In my POW, maia, the incarnated powers of the nature don't have feeling.They act according reasons which is alien and difficult to understand by humans.

P.S.Like this piece with Galadriel's conversation.Hillarious!! :D :D
I wish we could have a separate thread where we could collect such "pearls".
Sometimes you feel pity that they are getting lost in shuffles.

[CAB]

Maybe Sauron went to Orodruin to use the power of the volcano itself against the allies. He had some control over Orodruin but perhaps he had to be on site to get enough from it to use physically against an army, the ring was stronger near the volcano. As for him being there alone, since he was under siege it probably would be easiest for Sauron to get to the mountain by stealth and also his forces, if present, would probably have been just as devastated by the fire as the allies. Sauron himself could probably withstand the fire (as he withstood the lightning in Numenor) or planned on sneaking back to Barad-dur before the fireworks started. He must have been desperate after being under siege for so long and was willing to take some chances.

[Nurvingiel]

is it being symbolism Mr Valandil??It is symbolic, but Tolkien's symbolism tends to make logical sense as well.

Gordis and Valandil, that theory was awesome! :cool:

Once, Sauron did not serve Melkor. Maybe he was unhappy with their arrangement and destroying the Ring would free him a bit. Then he could say the Elves did it, and Melkor would be none the wiser. But then those pesky Elves stopped him. :eek: :D

What were the leaders doing 30 miles away from their army, I'd like to know.

[Gordis]

Gordis and Valandil, that theory was awesome! :cool:

Once, Sauron did not serve Melkor. Maybe he was unhappy with their arrangement and destroying the Ring would free him a bit. Then he could say the Elves did it, and Melkor would be none the wiser. But then those pesky Elves stopped him. :eek: :D


Nay, it is Val's theory, not mine. I don't think Sau wanted to destroy the ring.

I agree with CAB above, unless Sauron was simply trying to escape through Cirith Duath/Ungol.

And Nurv, what has Morgoth to do with Sauron's Ring? :confused:

[Nurvingiel]

Because since Sauron was a servant of Morgoth, Morgoth would benefit from Sauron's power, and from Sauron's destructive activities in Middle-earth.

Right?

[durinsbane2244]

sorry i'm late, eh?


In my POW, maia, the incarnated powers of the nature don't have feeling.They act according reasons which is alien and difficult to understand by humans.


BUT [dramatic music] didn't both sauron AND melkor slowly become more and more like mortals? they both lost their ability to change their form, and Sauron ended up depending on a little ring! so, at this point, sauron's thought pattern and feelings might be a little more human than back in the ol' days of Illuvatar's Lonely Heart's Club Band...

[Lefty Scaevola]

Its and easy situation to surmise from a military standpoint.
There was a 7 year siege of Barad Dur. Oroduin was a nautural place for the HQ of the besieging forces because of it vantage point and defensive power, both against Barad Dur, and attacked from the South. Although there is no account of the siege of the siege other than a few snippets like Anarion being killed by a cast stone and the last part of the final confrontation on Mt Doom, we can make some obvious assumptions. Much of sauron power was in subject nations and alliances in the Eaxt and South. We can assume that through the siege, the army of the last alliance had to deal with Sauron's forces arriving from these areas and attempting to relieve the siege. The will require the The last Alliance to spread out, and periodically deal with the larger of the relieving forces. A standard tactic for besieged forces is to make a sortie in when the seiger are busy fighteing a relieving force. (All this sound familiar like the siege and relief of Minas Tirith?)
A likely senario is the siege lines we thined to deal with a substantial attack from a relieving army, and Sauron, perhaps running short of supplies, made a last main effort in a sortie, which broke through the siege lines, and then engage meager reserves of The Last Alliance around its HQ on Mt Doom.

[brownjenkins]

I agree with Lefty.

It may have been intended to be something like Dagor Bragollach, when Morgorth broke the Siege of Angband. A massive counterstrike by Sauron to defeat the besiegers. A strike that drove them all the way back to Orodruin and may even have been successful if not for Isildur. Mt. Doom would have been a tactically sound place to gather after a route and mount a counterattack, due to it being the only natural high ground in the region.

I do like Val's idea of Sauron destroying the ring himself. Maybe he even felt that being present at the time of it's destruction might allow him to recapture the essence of his soul that he imparted into it in the first place.

[CAB]

I think Lefty makes some very good points here. However I think the danger presented by Orodruin would have offset any tactical advantages. Having a large number of people positioned near or on an active volcano for a long period of time probably isn’t a very good idea, especially if you know or suspect that your enemy has some control of it. In the Silmarillion it states that the Numenoreans knew of Sauron’s return to Mordor when they saw the smoke of Orodruin. They must have believed he had some influence over it. They probably would also remember how the Dagor Bragollach began, a siege broken with the aid of volcanos.