Why Pippin says 'gollum, gollum' to Grishnakh

[Lotesse]

This question arises fromthe chapter The Urukhai, out of The Two Towers. I have always wondered about it, and it occurred to me the other day to mention it in the Teacup Cafe - and then stuff happened, and I didn't get a chance to make this thread until now. I had some of you ask me to make the thread, so I guess I'm not the only one around here who has wondered about this!



FOCUS: How is it that Pippin knows to say "gollum, gollum," when he & Merry are being held captive by Grishnakh and Orcish company? Grishnakh gets pissed at Pippin, and he says to them, "Have you got it -either of you?" presumably, of course, Grishnahk was referring to the One Ring, and Pippin gets it in his head to mumble "gollum, gollum," followed by 'Nothing, my precious.' I swear I never remembered those two hobbits ever having been exposed to Smeagol/Gollum before, aside from hearing stories from Bilbo, so how would Pip even know that that was Smeagol/Gollum's weird Ring-having/wanting catchphrase?


OH! And why would Pippin even WANT to tease Grishnakh in the first place. How did Pip even know to say things in the manner of Smeagol, and why would he even want to push Grishnakh's buttons, anyway? Was it something eLSE making him say that? Some weird thought-force from a certain Maia, or - or something?

[littleadanel]

And HERE the thread is! ;)

As for how he knows it, I think peeking into the Red Book plus Sam's account of the Council.

But why it came to his mind? I don't know. It was a dangerous game to play. They couldn't know how Grishnakh would react... *ponders*

[Lotesse]

BUT - does the Red Book even mention the 'gollum' noise in the throat that Gollum liked to do?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm not sure that the Red Book would have told Pippin much of the truth anyway. Remember Bilbo's words at the Council.
"I will now tell you all the truth. Not what I wrote in my book or told others." Or something along those lines.

[littleadanel]

True; he didn't write the truth in his book...

But I can imagine that Pip and Merry didn't leave Sam alone until he told everything he had heard at the Council... ;)

[Gordis]

Lotesse is right, it does seem curious. Of course, Bilbo might have told his story over and over again to everyone in the Shire, including young Pip, but still it is not like personal experience.

And how could Pippin know that Grishnakh had ever met Gollum and would recognise the "gollum" thing?

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Lotesse is right, it does seem curious. Of course, Bilbo might have told his story over and over again to everyone in the Shire, including young Pip, but still it is not like personal experience.

And how could Pippin know that Ugluk had ever met Gollum and would recognise the "gollum" thing?

I agree, he probably picked it up from Bilbo's stories and I'm sure Bilbo did the "Gollum voice" once or twice. Also, littleadanel has a point about Pip and Merry getting everything they could out of Sam.


You think maybe Pip was hoping that by doing the "gollum, gollum" Ugluk would think he grabbed Gollum by mistake and let them go? They were ordered to grab the hobbits right? Wouldn't do them any good to deliver Gollum when it was the hobbits that were wanted.

[Gordis]

You think maybe Pip was hoping that by doing the "gollum, gollum" Ugluk would think he grabbed Gollum by mistake and let them go? They were ordered to grab the hobbits right? Wouldn't do them any good to deliver Gollum when it was the hobbits that were wanted.
Gollum? Gollum was "wanted" in Mordor ever since Gandalf was seen going to Thranduil, where the little sneaker had been held captive. Sauron sent orcs to recapture Gollum in summer, and later, when he evaded both the Elves and orcs, even the nazgul were looking for him.All this is described in the Unfinished Tales. No, Gollum would have been a prize catch!

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Gollum? Gollum was "wanted" in Mordor ever since Gandalf was seen going to Thranduil, where the little sneaker had been held captive. Sauron sent orcs to recapture Gollum in summer, and later, when he evaded both the Elves and orcs, even the nazgul were looking for him.All this is described in the Unfinished Tales. No, Gollum would have been a prize catch!


Oh, I haven't read the Unfinished Tales :o . My impression was that they were after the hobbits.

[Elfy]

Yeah, that could have been it, OR it could have been supposed to mean 'gollum, gollum' referring to the previous owner of the ring. I dunno, I guess he could've meant either, though Gollum was originally a hobbit possibly, although Grishnakh wouldn't have known that. Now I'm confused... :confused: :)

[Gordis]

Oh, I haven't read the Unfinished Tales :o . My impression was that they were after the hobbits.

Sure they were, especially hobbits wih rings. :)

But had they come upon Gollum, they would have dragged him to Mordor at all costs. (By the way, it would mean the failure of the Quest!)

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

(By the way, it would mean the failure of the Quest!)


Yes it would. ;) :D

[The Wizard from Milan]

How did Pippin know, I don't know, I think the speculations about Bilbo's story telling is a good one.

As far as the why, I have always thought the following: Pipplin knew that Grishnakh wanted them dead. He also knew that the only thing that had kept them alive so far was that Grishnakh thought of the ring. Pippin was seeing that Grishnakh was giving in to his desire to kill right away, so he did something that Pippin was hoping would make the thought of the ring more conspicuous on Grishnakh's mind.
For this explanation to work we have to assume that (i) Pippin knew that the throathy noise and the use of the expression "my precious" knew that they were conncted with the possession of the ring and that (ii) Grishnakh knew that two.
I'd see assumption (ii) is the least likely.

[Jon S.]

How is it that Pippin knows to say "gollum, gollum," when he & Merry are being held captive by Grishnakh and Orcish company? Grishnakh gets pissed at Pippin, and he says to them, "Have you got it -either of you?" presumably, of course, Grishnahk was referring to the One Ring, and Pippin gets it in his head to mumble "gollum, gollum," followed by 'Nothing, my precious.' I swear I never remembered those two hobbits ever having been exposed to Smeagol/Gollum before, aside from hearing stories from Bilbo, so how would Pip even know that that was Smeagol/Gollum's weird Ring-having/wanting catchphrase?

Wasn't all this discussed in, at a minimum, Frodo's presence at Elrond's council? Hardly seems like a stretch to me that therefore these two other members of the Fellowship - Frodo's kin and friends - would have learned it as well.

[Gordis]

For this explanation to work we have to assume that (i) Pippin knew that the throathy noise and the use of the expression "my precious" knew that they were conncted with the possession of the ring and that (ii) Grishnakh knew that two.
I'd see assumption (ii) is the least likely.
I agree. There are easy explanations for (i), but not for (ii). Perhaps it was only a wild gamble?

[Nurvingiel]

This is definitely curious.
True; he didn't write the truth in his book...

But I can imagine that Pip and Merry didn't leave Sam alone until he told everything he had heard at the Council... ;)But Merry and Pippin spied on Bilbo for some time - that's how they found out about the Ring. Maybe they overheard Bilbo telling Frodo the true account of how he got the Ring.

Didn't Frodo know about that?

As to how he thought of it, I guess clever old Pippin was inspired. :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree. There are easy explanations for (i), but not for (ii). Perhaps it was only a wild gamble?
This is probably the most likely explanation. Pippin thought he was going to die. He might aswell try whatever has a chance of working.

[Lotesse]

The thing is, none of this explains how Pippin would have the innate, very specific understanding of how to say 'gollum, gollum' and to act just like Gollum. I don't believe the Red Book mentions all these details, and I also don't believe that Bilbo or Frodo ever went into such intimate detail with Pip & Merry before about it - I mean if they had done, wouldn't Tolkien have given us readers some idea that this had taken place, so we wouldn't be thinking it's odd - like I do right now - that Pippin has the ability to channel Gollum?

[Forkbeard]

The thing is, none of this explains how Pippin would have the innate, very specific understanding of how to say 'gollum, gollum' and to act just like Gollum. I don't believe the Red Book mentions all these details, and I also don't believe that Bilbo or Frodo ever went into such intimate detail with Pip & Merry before about it - I mean if they had done, wouldn't Tolkien have given us readers some idea that this had taken place, so we wouldn't be thinking it's odd - like I do right now - that Pippin has the ability to channel Gollum?
Just to throw my .02 in:

First, I don't think Pippin is "channeling Gollum. First, as to how he found out, while we are not specifically told, if you reread the first page or so of FoTR: The Ring Goes South, you'll find that Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, and Gandalf are all talking about the upcoming journey: Biblo and Gandalf both say things that we the reader know because we've just read about them, but Merry and Pippin do not, unless we assume that between the end of the council and this conversation they were brought up to speed on the details....as seems to be since they know the purpose of the journey and that Frodo and Sam are going and not going alone. So we're left to read that filling in of the details into the story, but I think its quite clear from that conversation that Merry and Pippin are fully in the know.

In the circumstances in which Pippin finds himself with Grishnakh then, he made a wild leap at something. If the above is true, then they know that Gollum was set free by orcs. In the chapter The Great River remember that Sam sees Gollum, as do Frodo and Aragorn, and unless we suppose that they kept this information from their companions (unlikely since Aragorn wanted to try to push faster the next day to lose him, he would have had to say something about why.) So they know who Gollum is, that he is so-called for the gollum sound he makes, know he long possessed the Ring, and know that he on their tail, or was until Parth Galen.

Now it is obvious that Grishnakh has orders to search hobbits for a ring, or rings. He asks them "Do either of you have it!!" So if he knows the ring it is likely he also knows about Gollum. All Pippin has to do is make a noise that sounds enough like gollum gollum for Grishnakh to understand what he's on about. QED.

FB

[Olmer]

Very reasonable expanation!
Still, for me, such teasing of Grishnakh without a slightest idea how he will react, was a childish, careless play with fire.
But , then again, Pippin never strikes as a hobbit with too much rationality. :)

[Curubethion]

Hmm..."channeling Gollum"...I've read Wheel of Time, and that puts a rather peculiar picture in my head...

[Valandil]

I agree with Forkbeard's assessment. And... Pippin "struck gold" too, since Grishnakh was from the Dark Tower (Appendices - F I think) and very possibly knew something of Sauron's "interview" with Gollum some years prior.

Can't really judge his action as childish or foolish. He was playing with fire, yes - but he was in a "live or death" situation anyway. He maybe felt the inspiration and kept his cool enough to "go with it".

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I'm not sure that the Red Book would have told Pippin much of the truth anyway. Remember Bilbo's words at the Council.
"I will now tell you all the truth. Not what I wrote in my book or told others." Or something along those lines.

He was, however, I think referring to the story that he won the Ring fairly against Gollum.

The Red Book, at least in part, is more or less representative of
The Hobbit, so that I think most of what was in said Hobbit would be in the Red Book. Of course, one must keep in mind the matter of the original Hobbit.

The thing is, none of this explains how Pippin would have the innate, very specific understanding of how to say 'gollum, gollum' and to act just like Gollum

But Bilbo told the story often, did he not? Merely a warped version in which he won the Ring in a fair competition. Therefore, it seems likely that he would have imitated Gollum's throat-sounds, and therefore that Pippin would recall it.

As Forkbeard says, QED.

[Elfhelm]

I agree. When Merry and Pippin catch up to Sam and Frodo, it is revealed that Sam was spying for quite some time and telling Merry and Pippin about the discussions between Frodo and Gandalf. I'd have to look in the books which are at home, but Pippin knew about Gollum and the Ring from very early on.