Snowstorm at the Redhorn Pass

[Gordis]

A question that has always puzzled me: Who caused the snowstorm at Caradhras?
The members of the fellowship discussed the issue in LOTR, but never came to a definite answer.

There are several possible suspects:

1. The ill will of Caradhras itself (Gimli and Aragorn seemed to favor this explanation)

2. Saruman.
Saruman was a maia, therefore seemingly had the necessary power to meddle with the weather. He knew exactly of the fellowship position (from crebain) and probably guessed that they were on the way to Mordor carrying the Ring (and not just carrying the Ring to Lorien). It was vital to him to turn the fellowship's path to the gap of Rohan where they would be at his mercy.
But Saruman was far away from Caradhras. Could he act at such a long distance?

3. Sauron
Sauron might have known of the fellowship leaving Imladris and, if so, must have thought that Elrond had decided to surrender the Ring to his mother in law, Galadriel. As we know, he never suspected the fellowship's ultimate goal. He was interested to prevent the Ring falling into Galadriel's hands, because with the Ring she might have overthrown him.
According to Boromir Sauron was known to cause storms in the Mountains of Shadow. But certainly it is a very great distance from Barad Dur to Caradhras. And he must have considered that closing the Redhorn Pass will force the Fellowship to take one of the other possible roots: either through Moria (risk of the Barlog getting the Ring), or through the gap of Rohan (risk of the Ring falling into Saruman's hands). Barlog was not in league with Sauron (see the tread on the subject). As for Saruman, by December 3018 Sauron knew of Saruman's treachery from the Witch-King's report at least (See "The hunt for the Ring" in UT). Therefore Sauron (if it was he who caused the storm) was facing a difficult choice but must have preferred the Barlog or Saruman as opponents to Galadriel.

4. The Barlog. Well... he was also a maia. Perhaps he was able to cause storms. He lived in the neighborhood. He was interested to force the fellowship into Moria to dispose of them there. But there is no indication that he knew anything about the fellowship or about the Ring before he felt their presence in his home (or before he got knocked on the head by Pippin's stone).

5. The Witch-King of Angmar. He might have been the nazgul that has flown over the Fellowship while they were hiking towards the Redhorn Pass. Frodo and Gandalf saw a dark shadow overhead and felt a chill. It was most probably a nazgul on the fell beast. The WK might have been returning from a spying mission to Rivendell borders or he might have been collecting some of the weaker Ringwraiths still lagging shapeless and miserable in Eriador after the disaster at the Ford. If so, the WK could have spotted the fellowship (seeing very clearly through the fell beast's eyes + at night his other senses were enhanced). Very probably he also felt the Ring's presence. He was the most capable of the nine to feel the presence of the Ring, remember he felt it from far away when Frodo and Sam were passing near Minas Morgul. The WK was known to cause snowstorms in the North during his reign in Angmar. And in winter his power was growing (See LOTR Appendices). So the WK might have landed his fell beast right atop Caradhras and made the storm in real time mode. As for his motives, he probably did not relish the idea of having to bow to a woman, so he was not going to let the Ring into Galadriel's hands. But he should have considered that if the Barlog got the Ring, Sauron would most probably send poor nazguls to get it from the Barlog... Not a nice prospect either.

6. Other (Galadriel, Elrond) But why would they?

Any ideas?

[arvedui_last_king]

1. Maybe, although mountains generally are not evil. :)

2. Definitely Not.

3. Maybe.

4. NOOOO!!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!

5. No. Firstly, the Nazgul didn't have that kind of power. Secondly, Sauron didn't let the Nazgul cross the river on their new steeds until after Isengard had fallen.

6. No.

7. There is another possibility. Pure coincidence, or chance, as we say in Middle Earth

[Gordis]

5. No. Firstly, the Nazgul didn't have that kind of power. Secondly, Sauron didn't let the Nazgul cross the river on their new steeds until after Isengard had fallen.


In the Appendices it is strongly implied that the Witch-King made this storm in the Bay of Forochel that drowned YOU, O Arvedui! :p ;)

‘But the Snowmen were uneasy; for they said that they smelled danger in the wind. And the chief of the Lossoth said to Arvedui: "Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here till the Witch-king goes home. For in summer his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long.
...'Yet the counsel of the Lossoth was good, by chance or by foresight; for the ship had not reached the open sea when a great storm of wind arose, and came with blinding snow out of the North; and it drove the ship back upon the ice and piled ice up against it. Even the mariners of CÃ*rdan were helpless, and in the night the ice crushed the hull, and the ship foundered. So perished Arvedui Last-king, and with him the palantÃ*ri were buried in the sea. '

And what was the shadow that passed over them before they reached the Redhorn Pass?
It was the cold chill hour before the first stir of dawn, and the moon was low. Frodo looked up at the sky. Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again. He shivered.
`Did you see anything pass over?' he whispered to Gandalf, who was just ahead.
`No, but I felt it, whatever it was,' he answered. `It may be nothing, only a wisp of thin cloud.'
`It was moving fast then,' muttered Aragorn, `and not with the wind.'

[Olmer]

Gandalf.
His original plan for the Fellowship's course was to go through Moria's tunnels.
Don' forget, that if we think that Sauron and Saruman were capable to change the weather, than so and Gandalf, because, besides being Maia- the one of the lesser powers of Ainur, the powers of Nature, he had in his posession one of the major Rings of Power - Narya, the Ring of Fire.

Besides, he wanted to "stitch" Gollum to the Ringbearer, who at that time was hanging around Moria, patiently waiting for the Fellowship to come.
Crossing the mountans through the mountain pass was not included in Gandalf's scheming design, and in his own fashion he "presuaded" everyone to change the route. :cool:

[Gordis]

Gandalf.
His original plan for the Fellowship's course was to go through Moria's tunnels.
Don' forget, that if we think that Sauron and Saruman were capable to change the weather, than so and Gandalf, because, besides being Maia- the one of the lesser powers of Ainur, the powers of Nature, he had in his posession one of the major Rings of Power - Narya, the Ring of Fire.

Besides, he wanted to "stitch" Gollum to the Ringbearer, who at that time was hanging around Moria, patiently waiting for the Fellowship to come.
Crossing the mountans through the mountain pass was not included in Gandalf's scheming design, and in his own fashion he "presuaded" everyone to change the route. :cool:

The major flaw to your theory is that Gandalf was the head of the Fellowship. He could have commanded them to go through Moria without going to such lenghts.

[arvedui_last_king]

In the Appendices it is strongly implied that the Witch-King made this storm in the Bay of Forochel that drowned YOU, O Arvedui! :p ;)
Touche, Gordis. Anyway, it was ICE that crushed the ship in the ICEBAY of Forochel. Imagine ice being there! And the people of Forochel were probably just superstitious. Tolkien says in his letters that the witch king had no great physical strength. His main power was fear. If he was master of the weather why didn't he command an avalance to land on top of Glorfindel in the appendices? :p :confused:



And what was the shadow that passed over them before they reached the Redhorn Pass?
It wasn't a Nazgul, it was the crebain. As is said somewhere, Sauron didn't let the Nazgul over the river until remaining members of the fellowship were at Dol Baran. Namarie!

[Olmer]

The major flaw to your theory is that Gandalf was the head of the Fellowship. He could have commanded them to go through Moria without going to such lenghts.
No, he couldn't, because he had the ring which was just enhancing the power of presuasion, not the power to command.
The Ringbearer had the power of command, though he did not know about it, but Gandalf surely knew.This why he put all his power of presuasion to convince particularly the Ringbearer to take the course of his choice.
Frodo had the last word on any decisions of the Fellowship , because his choice would resolute in the ultimate directive for others.

[arvedui_last_king]

Frodo had the last word on any decisions of the Fellowship , because his choice would resolute in the ultimate directive for others.

[This was deleted by arvedui_last_king because it was rude, insensitive and dumb.]

[Gordis]

Touche, Gordis. Anyway, it was ICE that crushed the ship in the ICEBAY of Forochel. Imagine ice being there! And the people of Forochel were probably just superstitious. Tolkien says in his letters that the witch king had no great physical strength. His main power was fear. If he was master of the weather why didn't he command an avalance to land on top of Glorfindel in the appendices? :p :confused:

Sure, the ice was there, but it was the storm that wasn't there before that drowned the ship. Though I agree, that probably it was only Lossoth's superstition that blamed the WK for the bad weather. People tend to blame someone for their misery. :D

I know the letter you refer to, but the facts show that the WK was not weak physically. He was going to take on Earnur in the battle of Fornost single-handedly - and Earnur was the strongest fighter in Gondor. He would have fought with Gandalf at the Gates of Minas Tirith. Glorfindel says that very few in Rivendell were strong enough to ride against the Nine.

Why didn't he call an avalanche on Glorfy? Because 1. there was no mountain nearby. :) 2, Perhaps weather-spells take time and concentration, and he was in the midst of a lost battle. 3. Glorfy was a resurrected Calaquendi elf - a being of great power.

It wasn't a Nazgul, it was the crebain. As is said somewhere, Sauron didn't let the Nazgul over the river until remaining members of the fellowship were at Dol Baran. Namarie!
The crebain passed over the Fellowship before that. That object was one big shadow that caused chill. Crebain caused no chill. Nay, I believe it was a nazgul.

As for Sauron not letting the nazgul over the river, that was the explanation the nazgul present at Part Galen gave to his orcs, when he sent them alone into Rohan. I think it was simply because he had no fell beast and hated to cross the river by boat - they all, save the WK, feared water.

By the way, this very same nazgul had his fell beast killed when he flew over the Fellowship who were on the West bank. So he had been over the river already.

[Gordis]

I think you have been watching too much of the movie. :D
IMO there are three possibilities for what caused the storm: Sauron, the malice if Redhorn or nature and coincedence.


By the way, in the movie you refer to, Frodo was a simple additional package with tearful frightened eyes, pathethic being that decided nothing.

[Gordis]

No, he couldn't, because he had the ring which was just enhancing the power of presuasion, not the power to command.
The Ringbearer had the power of command, though he did not know about it, but Gandalf surely knew.This why he put all his power of presuasion to convince particularly the Ringbearer to take the course of his choice.
Frodo had the last word on any decisions of the Fellowship , because his choice would resolute in the ultimate directive for others.

Uhm, I am not sure I agree...

Or perhaps I misunderstood you?

You mean the power of command given Frodo by the Ruling Ring over the wielder of one of the Three? - That he could hardly have before he claimed and mastered the One.

Or, do you mean, that though Gandalf was the nominal leader of the Fellowship, Frodo's wishes as the one entrusted with the Ring would overrule his command?

[Lotesse]

Arvedui, please do not throw the word "ridiculous" out like that, in reference to a well-respected fellow mooter's idea in a post. Olmer has a lot of respect around here, and it's not too cool seeing his opinions being touted as "ridiculous." Just sayin'. :) But welcome to Entmoot. :)

NOW, I rather fancy the idea of it having been the Witch King of Angmar who flew over like that, causing the chill and the shadow. I need to think & ponder a bit more on these ideas, especially since I've always wondered the same thing myself about who really caused Caradhras' storm, so... but I love the thought of it having been our Witch King.

[arvedui_last_king]

Sorry, I didn't mean to cause offence, just that I disagreed.


By the way, this very same nazgul had his fell beast killed when he flew over the Fellowship who were on the West bank. So he had been over the river already.

Actually, wasn't the nazgul still flying over the east bank when Legolas shot him down?

[arvedui_last_king]

By the way, in the movie you refer to, Frodo was a simple additional package with tearful frightened eyes, pathethic being that decided nothing.

Actually, Gandalf asked Frodo in the movie which way to go and Frodo replied "We go through the mines." Again, no offence intended, I'm not really that kind of person

[Gordis]

Actually, Gandalf asked Frodo in the movie which way to go and Frodo replied "We go through the mines." Again, no offence intended.

Really? I trust your word on that. Then, IMHO, it strangely contrasts with the general impression of movieverse Frodo. ;)

Actually, wasn't the nazgul still flying over the east bank when Legolas shot him down?.

No, they were on the West bank, near Sarn Gebir, and the nazgul came from the South and flew almost overhead:


`Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. Fierce voices rose up to greet it from across the water. Frodo felt a sudden chill running through him and clutching at his heart; there was a deadly cold, like the memory of an old wound, in his shoulder. He crouched down, as if to hide.
Suddenly the great bow of Lórien sang. Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string. Frodo looked up. Almost above him the winged shape swerved. There was a harsh croaking scream, as it fell out of the air, vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore.

[arvedui_last_king]

Really? I trust your word on that. Then, IMHO it strangely contrasts with the general impression of movieverse Frodo. ;) Yes, it's true. It happens just after a large amount of snow falls on the company



No, they were on the West bank, near Sarn Gebir, and the nazgul came from the South and flew almost overhead:
Well it's practically not over the west bank is it now? :D
Do you have The History of Middle-Earth? As I recall, Tolkien originally envisaged that this was a Nazgul, but then changed his conceptions without removing the reference to the Nazgul. My copy of The Lord of the Rings: A Readers Companion agrees with me.
There, I admit defeat.

[Olmer]

Uhm, I am not sure I agree...

You mean the power of command given Frodo by the Ruling Ring over the wielder of one of the Three?
Or, do you mean, that though Gandalf was the nominal leader of the Fellowship, Frodo's wishes as the one entrusted with the Ring would overrule his command?
Oh, sure you don't agree! :) ;) But it's a beauty in our disagreements: in our efforts to persuade an opponent we are digging deep and discovering new elements in the complexity of Tolkien's narrative. :)

Yes, he was a nominal leader. Remember, from the beginning he was not even planning to go with the Ringbearer, making excuse that it's not for him to decide. But, I guess, Elrond also was not wholeheartedly sure that the Ringbearer woun't stray from the designated path. :rolleyes: And, just as a precaution, the person with domineering ability to persuade was sent along with the rest of the Fellowship.

Frodo would definately overrule his command, if he would be not so naive and trusting and would have a little bit more information besides what he have got from Gandalf. And the Grey Wizard would be powerless to contradict Frodo's decisions, because even if the Three had abilities to command, the One can overrule theirs power. This is why Gandalf went into such pain to convince Bilbo to leave the Ring behind instead of just ordering him to do so. :)

[mithrand1r]

A question that has always puzzled me: Who caused the snowstorm at Caradhras?
The members of the fellowship discussed the issue in LOTR, but never came to a definite answer.

There are several possible suspects:

1. The ill will of Caradhras itself (Gimli and Aragorn seemed to favor this explanation)
Caradhras is the most likely cause. IMO. The simplest explanation is often the best explanation. (no always correct, but I think the best)


2. Saruman.
Saruman was a maia, therefore seemingly had the necessary power to meddle with the weather. He knew exactly of the fellowship position (from crebain) and probably guessed that they were on the way to Mordor carrying the Ring (and not just carrying the Ring to Lorien). It was vital to him to turn the fellowship's path to the gap of Rohan where they would be at his mercy.
But Saruman was far away from Caradhras. Could he act at such a long distance?

Saruman, I think, is more likely a candidate than Sauron. I think he could manage the distance, if he really wanted to let it snow.

3. Sauron
Sauron might have known of the fellowship leaving Imladris and, if so, must have thought that Elrond had decided to surrender the Ring to his mother in law, Galadriel. As we know, he never suspected the fellowship's ultimate goal. He was interested to prevent the Ring falling into Galadriel's hands, because with the Ring she might have overthrown him.
According to Boromir Sauron was known to cause storms in the Mountains of Shadow. But certainly it is a very great distance from Barad Dur to Caradhras. And he must have considered that closing the Redhorn Pass will force the Fellowship to take one of the other possible roots: either through Moria (risk of the Barlog getting the Ring), or through the gap of Rohan (risk of the Ring falling into Saruman's hands). Barlog was not in league with Sauron (see the tread on the subject). As for Saruman, by December 3018 Sauron knew of Saruman's treachery from the Witch-King's report at least (See "The hunt for the Ring" in UT). Therefore Sauron (if it was he who caused the storm) was facing a difficult choice but must have preferred the Barlog or Saruman as opponents to Galadriel.
Possible. Though,I would think it unlikely.


4. The Barlog. Well... he was also a maia. Perhaps he was able to cause storms. He lived in the neighborhood. He was interested to force the fellowship into Moria to dispose of them there. But there is no indication that he knew anything about the fellowship or about the Ring before he felt their presence in his home (or before he got knocked on the head by Pippin's stone).
I think that you answer your own question here. I think it is unlikely that the Balrog caused this problem.
5. The Witch-King of Angmar. He might have been the nazgul that has flown over the Fellowship while they were hiking towards the Redhorn Pass. Frodo and Gandalf saw a dark shadow overhead and felt a chill. It was most probably a nazgul on the fell beast. The WK might have been returning from a spying mission to Rivendell borders or he might have been collecting some of the weaker Ringwraiths still lagging shapeless and miserable in Eriador after the disaster at the Ford. If so, the WK could have spotted the fellowship (seeing very clearly through the fell beast's eyes + at night his other senses were enhanced). Very probably he also felt the Ring's presence. He was the most capable of the nine to feel the presence of the Ring, remember he felt it from far away when Frodo and Sam were passing near Minas Morgul. The WK was known to cause snowstorms in the North during his reign in Angmar. And in winter his power was growing (See LOTR Appendices). So the WK might have landed his fell beast right atop Caradhras and made the storm in real time mode. As for his motives, he probably did not relish the idea of having to bow to a woman, so he was not going to let the Ring into Galadriel's hands. But he should have considered that if the Barlog got the Ring, Sauron would most probably send poor nazguls to get it from the Barlog... Not a nice prospect either.
I do not think this is likely. From the text that you reference, there is at least some support for your theory. I still do not think it is likely though.
6. Other (Galadriel, Elrond) But why would they?

JRRT comes to mind. ;) Probably to move the plot along. :p

[Gordis]

Actually, Gandalf asked Frodo in the movie which way to go and Frodo replied "We go through the mines." ... Yes, it's true. It happens just after a large amount of snow falls on the company
Again, no offence intended, I'm not really that kind of person
I don't doubt your words. I am not fond of the movies, so my recollection of them is dim. And I am not too eager to go refresh my memory. :evil:
And I see, Arvedui, that you are really a nice person. :cool:

Well it's practically not over the west bank is it now?
There was a trap set downstream at Part Galen - some Mordor orcs (40?) were hidden on the West bank, along with Saruman's lads. I often wondered how did they cross the River? Really it must be incongruous to suppose that the nazgul carried them one by one on his beast. Like a taxi... :D I believe they crossed by boat. But all that is not important: even if the nazgul flew over the West Bank it was but a small breach of Sauron's order not to cross the River. I doubt whether this order existed or not. May be it was just a tale for the orcs.

Do you have The History of Middle-Earth? As I recall, Tolkien originally envisaged that this was a Nazgul, but then changed his conceptions without removing the reference to the Nazgul. My copy of The Lord of the Rings: A Readers Companion agrees with me.
Yes, I have the "Return of the Shadow" and the "Treason of Isengard" where the drafts for this part are. But I have never read " A Readers Companion". I have no time to check the place, but most likely you are right.

Oh, sure you don't agree! But it's a beauty in our disagreements: in our efforts to persuade an opponent we are digging deep and discovering new elements in the complexity of Tolkien's narrative.
Well, thanks, though I have an impression that I agree with you more often than most of the others here. ;)

But, I guess, Elrond also was not wholeheartedly sure that the Ringbearer woudn't stray from the designated path. And, just as a precaution, the person with domineering ability to persuade was sent along with the rest of the Fellowship.
I know it is canon that Narya's power was to kindle hearts. But, really, look at the facts. Saruman was the most persuasive of the Wizards, not Gandalf. Saruman could persuade even a nazgul (UT). Saruman persuades the White Counsil several times, beating Gandalf to it. Only once did Gandy overrule him, in the matter of Dol-Guldur, but it seems that finally Saruman allowed himself to be persuaded. ;) Persuading humans? Let us take Gondor. Saruman was in high esteem there, Gandalf was frowned upon. In Rohan he was called "stormcrow". Gandalf had been much involved in Arnor affairs, but what unity was there ever achieved? All the three Arnor states were constantly at each other's throats, and had fallen before Angmar one by one. Elves helped only when they themselves were threatened. Not much!
The only real "persuasion" he displayed was with hobbits and dwarves, sending Bilbo on his Quest and making Frodo volunteer to carry the Ring (unless it was Eru himself who helped). When he made Bilbo leave the Ring to Frodo, it seems his "persuasion" was heavily enhanced by an open display of power.

Frodo would definitely overrule his command, if he would be not so naive and trusting and would have a little bit more information besides what he have got from Gandalf. And the Grey Wizard would be powerless to contradict Frodo's decisions, because even if the Three had abilities to command, the One can overrule theirs power. This is why Gandalf went into such pain to convince Bilbo to leave the Ring behind instead of just ordering him to do so.
Not yet, Olmer. Frodo has to grow much stronger mentally to use the Ruling Ring command the wielders of the Three:

`I would ask one thing before we go,' said Frodo, `a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them? '
`You have not tried,' she said. `Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger?

]Saruman, I think, is more likely a candidate than Sauron. I think he could manage the distance, if he really wanted to let it snow. I don't think Saruman had the power... I know, he was a Maia, but look at the later scene: the orcs are carrying Merry and Pip into Orthank, they are much weakened by the sun. Saruman, most likely, watches them in his Palantir. So, why couldn't he send them clouds, or rain? Sure it must be easier than making a storm at a great distance?

Of course, if Saruman doesn't have that power, then neither does Gandalf (unless it is the power of Narya), nor the Witch-King. That leaves us with Sauron alone (or Caradhras).

[arvedui_last_king]

I doubt Sauron was responsible, because wasn't he originally one of the people of Aule? Tolkien never says that he had any intrest in the air like Manwe did. Saruman was also chosen to go to middle earth by Aule, so he isn't a windy person either. As for Gandalf, he was supposed never to reveal his power: he didn't even want to summon up some fire on Caradhras, so I doubt he would have caused the storm.

[Gordis]

I doubt Sauron was responsible, because wasn't he originally one of the people of Aule? Tolkien never says that he had any intrest in the air like Manwe did. Saruman was also chosen to go to middle earth by Aule, so he isn't a windy person either. As for Gandalf, he was supposed never to reveal his power: he didn't even want to summon up some fire on Caradhras, so I doubt he would have caused the storm.

So perhaps it was Manwe's doing? :eek: :D

I imagine Manwe watching and fuming: "Blast you, Olorin! You must go via Moria! What in Angband are you doing at the Redhorn Pass? Stupid incompetent FOOL! :mad: I shall help you to choose the right way!" *puffs his cheeks and blows on Caradhras* :p

It was generally believed that Sauron was able to cause storms in the Mts of Shadow (see Boromir's words). No one did question his weather-competence, only his ability to cause storms at such a distance. Certainly he made the East Wind to sent the fumes of Mt.Doom westwards to create the pall of darkness necessary for his orcs, and demoralizing for his enemies.

And about Gandalf. IMO, he was reluctant to light a fire not because of the restrictions laid on Istari, but because he supposed that SOMEONE was actually WATCHING! And that means, by the way, that he didn't think that it was the mountain itself that caused him problems.

And I also don't think it was Gandalf who caused the storm - too complicated a way to persuade the Fellowship. Everyone would have heeded his advice.

[Old toby's wicked weed]

hello. i hve found a discussion on mr j r r tolkien at last.

hello - i have called myself old toby's wicked weed, and i be a non gay, non bisexual guy into discussing Mr J RR Toilkien - how are you all?

maychance it was just a windy day?

It must snow up high there in the mountaains on a time, yes?

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Didnt Sauron make a large cloud or something to cover Minus Tirith to make it easier for the orcs to travel there?(i may be wrong here) If he did this why couldnt he make a snow storm to stop them on the mountain? I think it was just a chance storm that wasnt expected and couldnt have been predicted.

[arvedui_last_king]

Didnt Sauron make a large cloud or something to cover Minus Tirith to make it easier for the orcs to travel there?(i may be wrong here) If he did this why couldnt he make a snow storm to stop them on the mountain? I think it was just a chance storm that wasnt expected and couldnt have been predicted.

Yes, but the darknees was caused IMO by the fumes of Mount Doom. Mount Doom was Saurons forge, where he made the Ring. If he wanted to, he could have made his forging fire smoke a bit and make a cloud. However, could he have made the storm 600 miles away just by using smoke? I don't think so, it wasn't in his power.

I don't think it was Gandalf or Manwe because that sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy thory to me. If the company had crossed the Red Horn it would have been better for the Company - except they would never have met Gollum and the quest would have failed. Some people would argue that Gandalf knew this, but from what it says in UT I don't think he was consciously aware of where his descisions would lead the Company. So maybe it was just fate. A chance-storm, as men say in Middle-Earth.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Yes, but the darknees was caused IMO by the fumes of Mount Doom. Mount Doom was Saurons forge, where he made the Ring. If he wanted to, he could have made his forging fire smoke a bit and make a cloud. However, could he have made the storm 600 miles away just by using smoke? I don't think so, it wasn't in his power.

okay thanx

[CAB]

I would like to suggest another possibility. Maybe an unknown Maia caused the snowstorm. In the Valaquenta it is implied that there are many more Maiar than those which are familiar to Elves and Men, so it seems likely that there are others in Middle Earth beyond the handful we know. Perhaps this is someone like Bombadil (assuming of course that Bombadil is a Maia) who has chosen to live in a particular area and has great power within it’s bounds. Being secretive, it’s deeds were attributed to Caradhras itself. Such a being could have any motivation for causing the company trouble ( doesn’t like the ring, doesn’t like Hobbits, in a bad mood that day, etc.). While it is tempting to think that this is an unbodied Maia to help explain why it has remained unnoticed, I don’t believe this is the case. Apparently Maiar have to have a body in order to control the “substance of Arda� (This is said concerning Melian in the “Of the Ruin of Doriath� chapter of the Silmarillion, I believe there are other examples of this idea in Tolkien’s writings). Still, even a bodied Maia can probably maintain a low profile if it wants to, as long as it doesn’t pull and Ulmo and make itself into a giant wave or something.

[Lotesse]

That's an interesting idea; I like that. Like a hermit Maia? Or a "wise guru on the mountain" kind of crazy loner Maia? I rather like that idea. Welcome to Entmoot, CAB - I see this here is your first post. Great first post! A big welcome to you. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Olmer, I disagree with you here. Yes the One was more powerful than Narya, but there was no need for Gandalf to exert force like that in order for things to be done his way. Remember what Frodo said when Gandalf and Aragorn revealed their thoughts about Moria to the Company.

"I do not wish to go, but neither do I wish to refuse the advice of Gandalf.I beg that there should be no more vote, until we have slept on it.Gandalf will get votes easier in the light of the morning than in this cold gloom. How the wind howls!"
Frodo respected Gandalf's opinion and would follow his 'orders' and Gandalf most probably knew that.

[Olmer]

"I do not wish to go, but neither do I wish to refuse the advice of Gandalf. Gandalf will get votes easier in the light of the morning than in this cold gloom."
... but there was no need for Gandalf to exert force like that in order for things to be done his way.
Frodo respected Gandalf's opinion and would follow his 'orders' and Gandalf most probably knew that
Thanks for quote. :) For me it's one more prove of Gandalf's ability to persuade. Given enough time he would cajole anyone, but in Frodo's case the ringbearer needed to be convinced to WISH to do something, in this matter to wish to come along with Gandalf's plan.
Saruman could persuade even a nazgul (UT).
Saruman persuades the White Counsil several times, beating Gandalf to it. Only once did Gandy overrule him, in the matter of Dol-Guldur...
Let us take Gondor. Saruman was in high esteem there, Gandalf was frowned upon.
In Rohan he was called "stormcrow".
Gandalf had been much involved in Arnor affairs, but what unity was there ever achieved? So, we agreed that hobbits and dwarves had been heavily presuaded by the Grey Wizard to do his bids. :)

The fact is that we don't know how succesful was Gandalf in his pesuasion of common Men. But we know that Aragorn was "dancing to his pipe", also Theoden and Faramir. Only smart and experienced Denethor saw his "true colour" and treated him with distrust, apprehending Mithrandir's schemes to supplant him (which turned out not to be baseless) :( .
Also the wise, silver-tongued Rohan king's councellor did not let himself to be fooled by Gandalf, for what he earned his new name -Wormtongue, given , of course, by Gandalf.
As about men of Arnor and Gandalf's involvement... There is not too much said about it, and I suspect that exactly his involvements in Arnor's affairs had been adding to the destruction of the Northern Kingdom. :(

Gandalf and Nazgul...We know that he met them "up-close" and, as he claimed, he barely managed to escape. Don't you find strange that the Nine run away from Dunadan with measiy torch and was not deterred with “such light and flame that cannot have been seen…since the war-beacons of old� thrown by Gandalf? How difficult was his "escape"? And was it escape at all? Maybe it was just a meeting with old aquintances? After all he was a pretty frequent visitor at the Nazgul's "hanging out place" - Dol-Guldur.I understand of risking your life once, but he went three times to snoop around!Seems to me he had been pretty comfortable around there.
So, maybe, he was not really interested in persuading the White Council to oppose Saruman's suggestions.
As matter of fact, the White Council did not terribly mind to be persuaded to do nothing, and instead of fighting the Dark forces spent in perfect limbo 2000 years. :rolleyes:
Maybe an unknown Maia caused the snowstorm.
Good idea, CAB.I don't really see the reason for someone to be involved into causing problems for the small company of earth dwellers, but since it said that with Valar many of lesser powers descended to Arda, it's quite possible that some of them became the souls of inorganic matters with their own tempers, like the soul of Caradhras. :)

BTW, Wellcome to Moot! :)
The simplest explanation is often the best explanation. (no always correct, but I think the best)
JRRT comes to mind. ;)
According to Occam razor's rule this is the most obvious explanation. :) ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The fact is that we don't know how succesful was Gandalf in his pesuasion of common Men. But we know that Aragorn was "dancing to his pipe", also Theoden and Faramir. Only smart and experienced Denethor saw his "true colour" and treated him with distrust, apprehending Mithrandir's schemes to supplant him (which turned out not to be baseless) :( .
Also the wise, silver-tongued Rohan king's councellor did not let himself to be fooled by Gandalf, for what he earned his new name -Wormtongue, given , of course, by Gandalf.
I think this is a bit over the top but has some basis of truth. I disagree with you about Aragorn. It was his idea to take the route of Caradhras in the first place. If Gandalf really wanted to dissuade him as you say he would surely have done it before hand. I think you are closest to the mark with Theoden. Do you remember what Theoden said at Helms Deep. "I now miss both my counellor's, old and new."

[CAB]

Thank you to Lotesse and Olmer for your welcome. It is good to be here. I would like to add something to what I posted before if I may. Let’s not forget that Caradhras has had a bad reputation for a very long time. Gimli says “Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name long years ago, when rumor of Sauron had not been heard in these lands.� That suggests that the mountain has been seen as evil since very early in the second age at the latest, probably much earlier when you also look at Aragorn’s quote concerning who or what he thought caused the snowstorm, “There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he�. Just how would a mountain get the name of Cruel anyway? I would guess by having: violent weather, rock falls, and maybe some scary voices thrown in, at inopportune moments, seeming to be guided by a Will. What turns the fellowship back? Violent weather, rock falls, and scary voices, at an inopportune time, seemingly guided by a Will. Considering this, I believe the force that caused the snowstorm is probably the same force that has been causing the occasional traveler similar troubles for over 6000 years. This is unlikely to be any of the original suspects listed except for Caradhras itself (or in my opinion someone closely associated with Caradhras since, as Arvedui has already said, it would be unlikely for a mountain itself to be evil), or admittedly the Balrog could also be a possibility if you lean towards Caradhras’s ill repute starting early in the second age instead of the first. The Balrog most likely came into the neighborhood of Caradhras at the very beginning of the second age.

[Gordis]

I like your idea, CAB. And welcome here.

Indeed .the ill will of Caradhras may be explained by the presence of a dour maia in the area. Maybe not the Barlog, but some evil wind-spirit, originally a maia of Manwe.

[Gordis]

Gandalf and Nazgul...We know that he met them "up-close" and, as he claimed, he barely managed to escape. Don't you find strange that the Nine run away from Dunadan with measiy torch and was not deterred with “such light and flame that cannot have been seen…since the war-beacons of old� thrown by Gandalf? How difficult was his "escape"? And was it escape at all? Maybe it was just a meeting with old aquintances? After all he was a pretty frequent visitor at the Nazgul's "hanging out place" - Dol-Guldur.I understand of risking your life once, but he went three times to snoop around!Seems to me he had been pretty comfortable around there.


Well, you know yourself, as well as I do, that the Nine didn't run away from Aragorn with his torch. :) He was most surprised himself when they withdrew. It was their choice, and we used to agree on the reason for it. ;)

I think Gandalf's escape from Weathertop was easy, not because he was the nazgul's old buddy, but because they wanted him away, not necessarily dead. They were not keen on a serious fight. Those Maiar...better be left alone. Once Gandalf was gone, the nazgul were happy, though four came after him to be sure he doesn't turn back to meddle.

Nazgul level of power in this skirmish with Gandalf seems fairly consistent with what they have shown previously during their Ring-hunt: taken the bridge of Osgiliath, driven away and frightened to death everything living in the Anduin Vale, wiped away the guard of Rangers at Sarn-Ford etc.

Only when the Ring was near, they suddenly turned weak and pathetic: - at Weathertop with Aragorn, in Bree (couldn't they storm the inn and kill everyone there?)- sure the inn full of civilians is an easier target than a guard of Rangers at Sarn Ford!, and so on. But that has been discussed before.

As for being a frequent visitor in Dol Guldur, Gandalf had been visiting while Sauron was hiding (taking shape) there, not the nazgul. The Nine lived in Minas Morgul from 2002 till 2951, when 3 of them were sent to Dol Duldur. Gandalf's visits might be connected with a secret truce between the Necromancer and the White Counsil.

[CAB]

Thank you Gordis. Let me ask your opinion on this, I think it is related to the snowstorm question. It seems pretty clear that the Sirannon was dammed so the Watcher in the Water could guard the West gate of Moria. Only the inhabitants of Moria would take the trouble to do this, but it is doubtful that the Orcs could or would want to coax the Watcher to the newly created pool. This suggests that the Balrog was involved. Also look at the timing of the Watcher’s attack. It waits until just after the doors are opened (the company has been sitting outside the doors for quite a while) and then goes straight for the Ringbearer and no one else. It takes one half-hearted shot at capturing the ring immediately and when this fails it goes back to the real plan which is to force the ring towards the Balrog. If it had attacked moments earlier the company probably would have never entered Moria. The Watcher even goes so far as to bar the door after the company has gone inside. I think this is a pretty drastic move unless it is aware of the importance of the situation or has been given direct orders to do this. One other thing, although it seems a little improbable. The wolves that the company encounters could also be serving the Balrog. It was the only real power in the area. Maybe they weren’t really trying to kill the company but (along with the Watcher and whatever made the snowstorm) were merely forcing them to go to Moria.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Thank you Gordis. Let me ask your opinion on this, I think it is related to the snowstorm question. It seems pretty clear that the Sirannon was dammed so the Watcher in the Water could guard the West gate of Moria. Only the inhabitants of Moria would take the trouble to do this, but it is doubtful that the Orcs could or would want to coax the Watcher to the newly created pool. This suggests that the Balrog was involved. Also look at the timing of the Watcher’s attack. It waits until just after the doors are opened (the company has been sitting outside the doors for quite a while) and then goes straight for the Ringbearer and no one else. It takes one half-hearted shot at capturing the ring immediately and when this fails it goes back to the real plan which is to force the ring towards the Balrog. If it had attacked moments earlier the company probably would have never entered Moria. The Watcher even goes so far as to bar the door after the company has gone inside. I think this is a pretty drastic move unless it is aware of the importance of the situation or has been given direct orders to do this. One other thing, although it seems a little improbable. The wolves that the company encounters could also be serving the Balrog. It was the only real power in the area. Maybe they weren’t really trying to kill the company but (along with the Watcher and whatever made the snowstorm) were merely forcing them to go to Moria.

Man, thats an amazing theory! I've never thought of it that way. I just assumed that he attacked them cause they were there and he went for Frodo cause he was the closest one. I wonder how the Balrog knew the ring was coming his way? He didnt associate with the orcs. And if the pool was created for this reason how did he know the fellowship would take that path? True the storm made them but still. He would have to know that Saruman would betray them and they wouldnt take the Gap of Rohan, or that they would even try to destroy the ring for that matter. I'm going to have to think about this one for awhile. Great, great theory.

[CAB]

Thanks Farimir. I don’t think that the pool would have been made just to deal with the fellowship, it was already there. One of Balin’s companions had apparently been taken by the Watcher years earlier when he (Balin) tried to reoccupy Moria. Also if the wolves were working with the Balrog then Saruman wouldn’t really play into things. The company wouldn’t want to try to travel all the way to the Gap of Rohan while being chased by wolves, and maybe other forces that the wolves would lead to them. I must admit that I am making some assumptions here that a lot of people probably won’t agree with. I do believe that the Balrog was associating with the Orcs.. Balrogs were apparently leaders in Morgoth’s armies, so they have done this before. Also I am assuming that the Balrog had an awareness of what was going on in the world outside it’s own lair. I think this can be justified by pointing out that the Balrog is a Maia and I don’t think there are any known examples of Maiar in Middle Earth that are uninformed this way. I am also attributing some intelligence to the Watcher. Anyway, I hope I am not babbling too much.

[Gordis]

Very interesting theories, CAB! And fresh ones, I don't think that had been discussed before.

Considering this, I believe the force that caused the snowstorm is probably the same force that has been causing the occasional traveler similar troubles for over 6000 years. This is unlikely to be any of the original suspects listed except for Caradhras itself (or in my opinion someone closely associated with Caradhras since, as Arvedui has already said, it would be unlikely for a mountain itself to be evil), or admittedly the Balrog could also be a possibility if you lean towards Caradhras’s ill repute starting early in the second age instead of the first. The Balrog most likely came into the neighborhood of Caradhras at the very beginning of the second age.

An evil maia could well be associated with the Mountain since the beginning, yes, for 6000 years or such.

But I doubt that it was the same spirit as the Barlog. It was already mentioned, that the Barlog was a spirit of fire, not wind, but, moreover, it is canon that the Barlog SLEPT throughout all the Second Age and well into the Third till TA 1800. And the evil reputation of Caradhras must have been predating TA 1800
Sleeping, the Barlog didn't mind all those dwarves carving great halls right over his head, and mining deeper and deeper, till one day they actually disturbed him. Strange if this peacefully sleeping Barlog would mind someone passing over the Redhorn pass, if he didn't mind activity even in Moria itself.

Thank you Gordis. Let me ask your opinion on this, I think it is related to the snowstorm question. It seems pretty clear that the Sirannon was dammed so the Watcher in the Water could guard the West gate of Moria. Only the inhabitants of Moria would take the trouble to do this, but it is doubtful that the Orcs could or would want to coax the Watcher to the newly created pool. This suggests that the Balrog was involved. Also look at the timing of the Watcher’s attack. It waits until just after the doors are opened (the company has been sitting outside the doors for quite a while) and then goes straight for the Ringbearer and no one else. It takes one half-hearted shot at capturing the ring immediately and when this fails it goes back to the real plan which is to force the ring towards the Balrog. If it had attacked moments earlier the company probably would have never entered Moria. The Watcher even goes so far as to bar the door after the company has gone inside. I think this is a pretty drastic move unless it is aware of the importance of the situation or has been given direct orders to do this. One other thing, although it seems a little improbable. The wolves that the company encounters could also be serving the Balrog. It was the only real power in the area. Maybe they weren’t really trying to kill the company but (along with the Watcher and whatever made the snowstorm) were merely forcing them to go to Moria.
It seems that the pool was made during the few years when Balin occupied Moria. The damming of the Sirannon may have been a natural phenomenon, or the Watcher took care of that all bu himself. I think, the Watcher was not coaxed there by the orcs, but decided to go there itself, or was sent by the Barlog. Maybe the Watcher was another Maia, or a beast - one of the things that Gandalf later reported he had seen in Moria depths. It is simply unknown. I favour the Maia theory, as apparently the thing sensed the Ring, so grabbed Frodo.
As for the Watcher's motivations, I like your theory very much. I agree he was leaving the Fellowship for the Barlog.

The wolves weren't exactly wolves, but Wargs or Werewolves.
When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas lying on the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was left.
`It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. `These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!'
Note that their dead bodies disappeared. They were some other lesser spirits in wolf form. They could have worked for the Barlog, or Sauron, or simply were on their own.
Aragorn says " 'How the wind howls! ' he cried. 'It is howling with wolf-voices. The Wargs have come west of the Mountains! " So normally they were East of the mountains. Mirkwood? Rhovanion? Anduin vale?
Most likely they were not in league with the Barlog, but with Sauron. Gandalf addresses their leader: "'Listen, Hound of Sauron!"

Actually, I doubt that the Barlog knew about the Fellowship, their route, Saruman's betrayal etc.

But I have another theory: the power and will of the Ring itself attracted Wargs, Watchers, Gollums, orcs and Barlogs much like it attracted the nazgul. The Ring was actively calling to all the evil creatures around. Maybe the Spirit of Caradhras, whatever it was, also felt it.

Here is a quote from the UT, describing the attack on Isildur at the Gladden:
Isildur believed that after their costly repulse the orcs would give way, though their scouts might follow him during the night and watch his camp. That was the manner of Orcs, who were most often dismayed when their prey could turn and bite.
But he was mistaken. There was not only cunning in the attack, but fierce and relentless hatred. The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dûr, sent out long before to watch the passes, and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to all his servants for their aid .

So, perhaps it is no wonder that the small Fellowship (and Frodo in particular) attracted so much attention.

By the way, the awareness went both ways. Frodo also FELT there was something in the pool, felt danger in front and behind while walking through Moria, felt danger in the well. It was the Ring he carried + the effect of the Morgul wound.

[CAB]

I agree Gordis that the Balrog probably wasn’t the Spirit of Caradhras. I had forgotten (probably on purpose, I never liked the idea of it sleeping for thousands of years) about the Balrog’s long nap.

Let me suggest this. Maybe the Balrog was trying to build up a power base. It had to have known that Sauron’s power was growing. If it was going to stay free of Sauron and hold on to Moria it needed to get stronger in a military and intelligence type sense. It could do this by making allies in the area (Spirit of Caradhras, Watcher) and subjugating others (Wargs, Orcs, maybe some birds for information gathering purposes, the Spirit of Caradhras and the Watcher may also have been subjects rather than allies). I’m not saying that the Balrog was preparing to take over Middle Earth but rather was trying to hold on to it’s freedom and home.

I think if this was true, the Wargs could very easily be serving the Balrog. It was stated that there were wolves (probably Wargs) on Lorien’s boarders, probably very close to Moria. If the Balrog had control of the Redhorn Pass and Moria they had easy access to the east side of the mountains. Even though Gandalf refers to one as “Hound of Sauron� they may have recently switched allegiances to the Balrog during it's power grab. The Balrog is right next door while Sauron is hundreds of miles away. I don’t think these evil types are very loyal.

I’m not really sure what I think about the Balrog’s knowledge of the Ring. How would it know? Certainly Sauron and Saruman didn’t share their knowledge with it. On the other hand the company seems to be almost pushed into Moria. Why would an unknown bunch of travelers get this treatment? I think that your idea that the Ring attracted evil probably explains this and maybe the push into Moria is just an illusion. The Watcher’s actions still seem suspicious to me though.

I like your idea that the Ring caused awareness both ways. Maybe Sauron put that power into the Ring to keep a better eye on his troops.

[Olmer]

I disagree with you about Aragorn. It was his idea to take the route of Caradhras in the first place.
I see your reason.The problem was that men of numenorean's bearing were not easy to be dissuaded; such people as Aragorn, Denethor and Boromir wouldn't bend to the direct psychological influence (even by Sauron), they needed to be intensely convinced, induced to believe in the rightness of what they are doing. Gandalf's "show and tell" was staged for benefit of the doubters. :)
If I think you are closest to the mark with Theoden. Do you remember what Theoden said at Helms Deep. "I now miss both my counellor's, old and new."
Yeah, when I read this, my thought was "So, Grima was as wise, as Gandalf, then he, probably, was not too much of the base seeing the Grey Wizard as a schemer".
To tell the truth Gandalf's advises to Theoden were not only absurd, but downright suicidal. :(

[Gordis]

To tell the truth Gandalf's advises to Theoden were not only absurd, but downright suisidal. :(

You mean??? :confused:

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Let me suggest this. Maybe the Balrog was trying to build up a power base. It had to have known that Sauron’s power was growing. If it was going to stay free of Sauron and hold on to Moria it needed to get stronger in a military and intelligence type sense. It could do this by making allies in the area (Spirit of Caradhras, Watcher) and subjugating others (Wargs, Orcs, maybe some birds for information gathering purposes, the Spirit of Caradhras and the Watcher may also have been subjects rather than allies). I’m not saying that the Balrog was preparing to take over Middle Earth but rather was trying to hold on to it’s freedom and home.

I think if this was true, the Wargs could very easily be serving the Balrog. It was stated that there were wolves (probably Wargs) on Lorien’s boarders, probably very close to Moria. If the Balrog had control of the Redhorn Pass and Moria they had easy access to the east side of the mountains. Even though Gandalf refers to one as “Hound of Sauron� they may have recently switched allegiances to the Balrog during it's power grab. The Balrog is right next door while Sauron is hundreds of miles away. I don’t think these evil types are very loyal.

I’m not really sure what I think about the Balrog’s knowledge of the Ring. How would it know? Certainly Sauron and Saruman didn’t share their knowledge with it. On the other hand the company seems to be almost pushed into Moria. Why would an unknown bunch of travelers get this treatment?

To bad Gandolf didn't get a chance to interrogate the Balrog first. :D These theorys are great CAB.

[arvedui_last_king]

Quote posted by Olmer:

The fact is that we don't know how succesful was Gandalf in his pesuasion of common Men. But we know that Aragorn was "dancing to his pipe", also Theoden and Faramir. Only smart and experienced Denethor saw his "true colour" and treated him with distrust, apprehending Mithrandir's schemes to supplant him (which turned out not to be baseless) .
Also the wise, silver-tongued Rohan king's councellor did not let himself to be fooled by Gandalf, for what he earned his new name -Wormtongue, given , of course, by Gandalf.

Smart and experienced Denethor? I would describe him as proud and jealous. He took an oath to rule Gondor until the kings returned, bu when that looked like happening he decided he didn't want to lose his power.

Wormtoungue didn't let himself be fooled by Gandalf? Implying that everyone who followed and trusted Gandalf were fooled by him. Why do you think Gandalf is scheming for his own benefit? Wormtoungue, as is said in UT, administered subtle poisons to Theoden. He doesn't seem that nice.

[Olmer]

You mean??? :confused:
Theoden rush decision to leave Edoras full of women and children under protection of... Eowyn and send not only his whole army, but "every men and strong lad able to bear arms" in hurry to fight Saruman army, "the main strength (of which)...is many time as great as all that (they ) have" just because Gandalf, who was up to that point had been considered entirely untrustworthy by the people of Rohan, TOLD him so. For me it looks kind of very illogic, even stupid move of the weathered in the wars warrior. :confused:
Gandalf must have used some pretty wicked mind controll spells to make Theoden to come so fast to such kind of conclusion . :eek:
By the way, Gandalf knew of Saruman's war potentials, he had been there, and his advise to go to Isengard and fight against the whole army, was equal to send men to a manslaughter. Not to mention that his "advise" to leave behind utterly defenceless women and children, the very essence, the future of Rohan, knowing that behind "comes a very storm of Mordor"made me suspect that Gandalf's intentions toward Rohan was not entirely benign, they just had been used as pawns in his chess-game. :(

[Olmer]

Gordis, I agree with you on Nazgul's motivations on the Weathertop.
So, the lights and flames were just Gandalf's brags about his pyrotechnic skill, kind like his water-horses boasting. ;) :D
the power and will of the Ring itself attracted Wargs, Watchers, Gollums, orcs and Barlogs much like it attracted the nazgul.
That right.I don't think that surviving Balrog was interested in any later Middle-earth's affairs. He clearly shows his neutrality through the whole history of events, but I also don't think that the passing of the Ring of Power in his vicinity would leave him unaffected. We had a discussion on ths subject. Here I'm just inserting my reply.If it would not be for the Ring , he wouldn't give a damn about a few more wanderers in vast Moria tunnels.
The Ring was a device which was tuned to attract persons with power, it doesn't see the difference between Elf , Man or Beast. As it sense the power it starts to emit the "pull" according the power measure of the prospective possessor. And lo!, mighty Balrog - what a catch!.
I imagine the pull was enormous to make Balrog uncomfortable and seek the source of nagging symptoms.
He would definately get a possession of the ring ( killing in process the Fellowship), but then he would just try to bury it somewhere, preferably as far from the place of his dwelling as it could be possible.
This way the ring would be, probably, much safer hidden than in the depth of the ocean , or even in Valinor
The wolves weren't exactly wolves, but Wargs or Werewolves.
Note that their dead bodies disappeared.
Since Wargs were maiars, which had been under the service of Melkor and ,after his downfall, by the cruelty of Valar were stripped of their quaint earth-form into the wolfs shapes their intelligence can be pertained more to humans than animals (after all they understood the Black speech and Quenya ), how about the simplier explanation that they picked up the slain and wounded? :D
He took an oath to rule Gondor until the kings returned, bu when that looked like happening he decided he didn't want to lose his power.
The King-who? :rolleyes:
The last King of Gondor was Earnur. The Dunedain's Council of Gondor refused Arvedui's claim for the crown, and he had more Isildur's blood that "the last of ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity". And they had been absolutely right in this decision, otherwise Gondor's future would be as bleak as Arnor's. But instead of shrinking and falling apart under the rule of Isildur's straight lineage descendants , the Kings of Gondor expanded and enpowered their realm.
How much of Isildur's blood was in the veins of Aragorn is a big question.I guess, enough to summon the Dead Army. He won the support of gondoreans by winning the battle, and not by argumenting his pretense to be the King by brandishing re-forged Narsil. But without help of elves and wizard he would be still wandering around Eriador and sleeping under trees. :cool:

[arvedui_last_king]

Theoden rush decision to leave Edoras full of women and children under protection of... Eowyn and send not only his whole army, but [B]"every men and strong lad able to bear arms
I may be wrong, but I am sure that the women and children were sent to Dunharrow.

By the way, Gandalf knew of Saruman's war potentials, he had been there, and his advise to go to Isengard and fight against the whole army, was equal to send men to a manslaughter.
He did indeed know Saruman's war potential: nothing. He had been to Isengard on the night of the Battle of the Hornburg, after Isengard was destroyed, unless Pippin is lying as well. He wouldn't have tried to besiege Isengard while it was defended by thousands of orcs with only twenty men. :)

they just had been used as pawns in his chess-game. :( But if Gandalf was selfish and decieving, why didn't Tolkien anywhere write about his ulterior motives?

[Landroval]

Since Wargs were maiars
What makes you think so? In The hobbit, they are just reffered to as "evil wolves"; in the Quenta, HoME IV, Tolkien states that the name warg comes form Old Norse vargr - wolf; in a note to letter #297, they are reffered to as demonic wolves, but that is all - not to mention that they are ridden by orcs.

[arvedui_last_king]

Since Wargs were maiars,
I don't think we can be sure about that. It is not explicitly stated by Tolkien so that just an assumption (that I disagree with.)

And they had been absolutely right in this decision, otherwise Gondor's future would be as bleak as Arnor's.
No they were not. No it woludn't. You are forgetting the words of Malbeth the Seer: Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last of the Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dunedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men will pass, until the Dunedain arise and are united again.

Arvedui Last King!!! :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But I have another theory: the power and will of the Ring itself attracted Wargs, Watchers, Gollums, orcs and Barlogs much like it attracted the nazgul. The Ring was actively calling to all the evil creatures around. Maybe the Spirit of Caradhras, whatever it was, also felt it.
I agree with you that the Ring called out to evil creatures but I also agree with Olmer. I the reason that the Balrog disturbed the Fellowships path was because he felt the presence of Gandalf a fellow Maia. As Olmer said I doubt the Balrog would be concerned with the affairs of ME, only his own survival.

[Gordis]

How much of Isildur's blood was in the veins of Aragorn is a big question.I guess, enough to summon the Dead Army. He won the support of Gondoreans by winning the battle, and not by argumenting his pretense to be the King by brandishing re-forged Narsil. But without help of elves and wizard he would be still wandering around Eriador and sleeping under trees Aragorn probably had as much blood of Elendil in his veins as everyone of the Arnorean Dunedain and plenty of Gondoreans, Denethor included. But it is not the blood proportion that makes him the rightful King, it is the DIRECT PATRILINEAL DESCENT. No one in Gondor could claim this. Maybe there were some Castamir's descendants in Umbar that could claim direct descent from father to son from Anarion, but Thorongil took care of them himself, it seems...

What makes you think so? In The hobbit, they are just reffered to as "evil wolves"; in the Quenta, HoME IV, Tolkien states that the name warg comes form Old Norse vargr - wolf; in a note to letter #297, they are reffered to as demonic wolves, but that is all - not to mention that they are ridden by orcs.
I admit I don't really know the difference between wargs and werewolves. But there clearly is a difference, as Gandalf enumerating Sauron's servants to Frodo, says: wargs and werevolves. I believe wargs were animals - huge wolves associated with Orcs, while werevolves were evil spirits in wolf form.
Aragorn hears the howling and cries "Wargs" They are called alternatively "wargs" and "wolves" until after the fight, when their bodies disappear and Gandalf says: `It is as I feared. These were no ordinary wolves!'

So what were these spirits? Lesser maiar, corrupted Elvish fëar inhabiting wolf bodies, human fëar, something else?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn probably had as much blood of Elendil in his veins as everyone of the Arnorean Dunedain and plenty of Gondoreans, Denethor included. But it is not the blood proportion that makes him the rightful King, it is the DIRECT PATRILINEAL DESCENT. No one in Gondor could claim this. Maybe there were some Castamir's descendants in Umbar that could claim direct descent from father to son from Anarion, but Thorongil took care of them himself, it seems...
Remember Aragorn was also a descendent from Anarion, as Firiel married Arvedui.

[Gordis]

Remember Aragorn was also a descendent from Anarion, as Firiel married Arvedui.
Yes but that doesn't count for much. The ancestry is accounted from father to son only - patrilineal law. It was the law of both Arnor and Gondor. Arvedui had no real grounds to claim the crown (no pun intended, o Arvedui :o )

[arvedui_last_king]

Arvedui had no real grounds to claim the crown

Well then, what grounds had Aragorn for the crown?

[Gordis]

Well then, what grounds had Aragorn for the crown?
Aragorn was a direct descendant of Elendil and Isildur - from father to son. As was Arvedui. But Gondor's throne belonged to Anarion and his descendants - also from father to son.

At the time of Arvedui, there were still direct descendants of Anarion in Gondor, Earnil was a direct descendant of Telumehtar Umbardacil, so he clearly had precedence over Arvedui.

At the time of Aragorn, no father to son descendants of Anarion could claim the throne, so Aragorn claimed the throne as a descendant of Elendil, the High King of both Arnor and Gondor.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes but that doesn't count for much. The ancestry is accounted from father to son only - patrilineal law. It was the law of both Arnor and Gondor. Arvedui had no real grounds to claim the crown (no pun intended, o Arvedui :o )
What about Numenor? There were ruling queens of Numenor before the shadow fell. why not in Gondor?

[CAB]

But the mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were taller and more terrible in those days, and were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Orome.
Kind of a late addition to this thread, but after reading this quote from the Silmarillion, it seems probable to me that the maker of the snowstorm on Caradhras may have been "posted" by Melkor at the Redhorn pass, far back in the First Age, to do to Orome's hunters exactly what it did to the company thousands and thousands of years later. Quite a loyal servant, don't you think?

[Gordis]

That is quite possible, CAB. We are returning to the "Evil Maia theory".

I have just reread the thread (isn't it your first one, CAB?:) ) - a good thread it is, there are few now that interesting *sigh*.

[CAB]

I have just reread the thread (isn't it your first one, CAB?:) )
It is. I have also posted today in what appears to be your first thread. In it, I requested that you post your theory regarding the importance of the Palantiri to those who would seek the Ring. Maybe it will start some discussion.

[Gordis]

Ok, I will see to it, thanks, CAB.:)

[Olmer]

On another hand, after comparing texts in the "Hobbit" and in the "FotR" I came to conclusion that by all Tolkien's indications it was the stone giants who were making a small avalachie. A few sentences later after a description of the snowstorm Tolkien gives us a hint that this is not doing of Sauron or Saruman.
"There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have a little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron. Some have been in the world longer than he."(FotR)
I am pretty sure that he meant to include the stone giants in this story, but he has left for us a little enigma by withholding the identity of the hostile power, and at the same time giving an explicit clue.
Still, it is a question of their origin. Could be very well the servants of Melkor ( as CABsuggested), or quite independent entities.

[Jon S.]

Well before the movies came out, I thought it was most likely Saruman who caused the storm in an effort to prompt the Fellowship to take an overland path bringing them closer to Isenguard and the lands under Saruman's domain. That they would risk the mines - and also, thereby, the Ring - was just not something I thought Saruman was expecting.

To those of you who ruled out Saruman as the cause: on what grounds?

P.S. I can't believe how much of the LOTR dialog - book and movie - has made it into the general parlance in my home. We actually call each other to the dinner table with statements like, "Come to dinner - my wife Jackie will show you a royal welcome!," and, "Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!: :o

[CAB]

That they would risk the mines - and also, thereby, the Ring - was just not something I thought Saruman was expecting.
I agree with you there and I would guess that Gandalf did too. It would be pretty hard to avoid an ambush if the enemy knew that you would be coming out of a particular door at some not too far off time.

To those of you who ruled out Saruman as the cause: on what grounds?
My thinking, when this thread was first active, was that the maker of the snowstorm had to be someone on site. The weather seems to "react" too quickly to the movements of the company to be controlled this way by someone having messages relayed to him by birds over miles and miles. But, looking at it now, with his Palantir this wouldn't be an issue for Saruman. On the other hand, if he spotted the company with his Palantir, then he should have known that they would be coming out of (or be lost in) Moria, and should have had forces waiting for them (or at least in route to Moria if the distance was too great) on the other side.

I wouldn't completely rule Saurman out, but I still think the most logical explanation is that the power that gave the company trouble was the same one that had given Caradhras an evil reputation for thousands of years. There is no indication that the crebain spotted the company, at least (and even then only possibly) until they were coming down from the pass and it seems pretty clear to me that Saruman never saw the company in his Palantir.

[Olmer]

To those of you who ruled out Saruman as the cause: on what grounds?
On the ground that they were FORBIDDEN to show their real nature.They were supposed to be the wise men, nothing more. Althought from time to time Gandalf was happily breaking the rules just to boast up his inflating ego.
On contrary we know not a single fact that Saruman ever used his hidden power. Seems he was more disciplined emissary than Gandalf, who IMHO was putting on the blame on Saruman, making up the story about his malice just to say:" He did it too!"...:D
As far as I know it could be Gandalf himself who made a stone avalanche, remember, his original plan was to go through the Moria and he was INSISTING on this plan.:eek:

[Jon S.]

You are definitely the most entertaining poster on this board, Olmert (seriously, I mean this as a compliment!).

Come on! You can't seriously be pointing to Saruman as a paragon of how to respect your charge from the Higher Authorities! He's just about the last ME character you could characterize that way. If anyone would break his vows to cause the avalanche, Saruman was the one.

Next thing you'll be telling us Gandalf caused the whole thing just to save the cost of a hair salon lightening and a new white suit! :eek:

[Olmer]

Aghm... thanks for the compliment. As long as you are not taking me as a local jester...:D

Next thing you'll be telling us Gandalf caused the whole thing just to save the cost of a hair salon lightening and a new white suit! :eek:
Actually, you are not too far off the target.;)
I have a theory that Gandi made an agreement with Sau to stage a Grand Finale with an effective departure of Sauron.Of course, each of them had different agendas, but a successfull ending of the Age of the Rings was suiting them both.
If anyone would break his vows to cause the avalanche, Saruman was the one.
What made you to think so?

[Gordis]

I agree with you there and I would guess that Gandalf did too. It would be pretty hard to avoid an ambush if the enemy knew that you would be coming out of a particular door at some not too far off time.


That is a clever observation - and I think it rules out not so much Saruman, but Sauron. Saruman could not have had enough time to gather a force and bring it to the West door, but Sauron, had he known that the Ring had entered Moria, would have sent all the available nazgul to wait by the door. It was mid-January. The Fell beast research project was already well underway.

That brings up another question: did Saruman suspect WHERE was the Fellowship going and what for?
We are told that Sauron never considered the possibility of his enemies trying to destroy the Ring - so he likely thought that the Ring was travelling to Lorien, no further, to be given to Galadriel.
But Saruman?
He was a long-time member and head of the White council, Rings were repeatedly discussed, he should have heard Elrond lamenting: "Why didn't Isildur throw the ring into Mt.Doom? I told him to, but he wouldn't listen." And the other Wise nodding : "Pity, pity..."
So, Saruman likely had a much better idea where to stop the Fellowship and a lot more time to prepare.

[Olmer]

Saruman could not have had enough time to gather a force and bring it to the West door, but Sauron, had he known that the Ring had entered Moria, would have sent all the available nazgul to wait by the door.
Both of them have had enough time to bring to Moria a "great troop of orcs" through the East gate just not long before the company has entered the underground.The troop went along the eastern skirts of mountains, so their starting point could be Mordor or Isengard.
But I, too, think that it was not Sauron's order, and not because of the absence of Nazgul (maybe he wanted the Ring to get to Galadriel), but because Saruman had a priority to gather more information and personally knew the creator of the Strategic Plan, therefore he was aware of the choices presented to Gandalf & Co., and made sure that he is ready for any of them. The orc's troop on the eastern side was sent to watch the pass and the Moria's doors.
Furthermore, unlike Sauron, he definately knew which one of the four hobbits is the ringbearer and gave a detailed description. This why his emissary-assasin went not for Aragorn or Boromir, not for Sam, who was right next to Frodo, but sacrificed his life in order to bring down exactly Frodo .
So, yes, it's Saruman who was genuinely interested in the Ring's acquirung, Sauron just feigned the interest.

[Gordis]

I think we have already discussed this troop of orcs that entered Moria from the East rather long before the Fellowship entered it.
Haldir: We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many days ago.
Perhaps they were sent to search for Gollum. Everyone from Mordor was looking for him back in autumn, nazgul included.
The orc you refer to, Olmer, was also likely from Mordor: ("And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor.") He had none of distinctive features of Sarumans uruks, no long sword, but a scimitar like all Mordor orcs. I guess he was one much like Grishnakh or Shagrat - the commander of the Mordor troop in Moria.

which one of the four hobbits is the ringbearer and gave a detailed description
This seems next to impossible to me. To an orc, and likely also to most Men, all the hobbits looked very much alike. Grishnakh seemed to be fully instructed, and he could get Frodo's detailed description from the nazgul - yet he never knew that he got wrong hobbits. "One of them midgets" seems as accurate a description as possible.:D

but sacrificed his life in order to bring exactly Frodo down.
Perhaps the Ring called to him?

[Gordis]

bump!:)

[Ant]

Just a note of potential interest that may well be completely irrlevant, but was it in the Hobbit that there were (mountain) giants hurling rocks around in the mountains, and seemingly for no other reason than leisure?

[mithrand1r]

Just a note of potential interest that may well be completely irrlevant, but was it in the Hobbit that there were (mountain) giants hurling rocks around in the mountains, and seemingly for no other reason than leisure?

IIRC, I think you are correct.

In the hobbit video game, they even had a section with the giants hurling stones at you while you were trying to pass through the mountain pass. It was not easy.

[Olmer]

So, we are back again to my and CAB's suggestions about the independent entities.:evil:
Let's go on a second round!!:D

[Gordis]

I have bumped the thread to let Ant and Noble Elf Lord try to persuade us that it was Saruman who made the storm.:p

[Attalus]

Waiting. :p

[Valandil]

I have bumped the thread to let Ant and Noble Elf Lord try to persuade us that it was Saruman who made the storm.:p

But there WAS no storm.



Saruman CONVINCED the members of the Fellowship that there was! :p;)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Well, if the Istari were capable of group hypnosis then Gandalf is a more likely culprit. After all, he was right there with the group. :eek:

[The Gaffer]

Just re-read this bit from TTT:

Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

[Attalus]

Contra the movies, I have never thought thaat Saruman was responsible for the storm on Carhadras. Gimli blamed the mountain itself, and I am inclined to agree. After all, Tom Bombadiil said "I am no weather-master, and naught is that goes on two legs."

[Alcuin]

Gandalf believes Sauron responsible in FotR:“I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,� said Boromir. "They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.�

“His arm has grown long indeed,� said Gimli, “if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.�

“His arm has grown long,� said Gandalf.Remember, the day before, they had met the werewolves, and Sauron was Lord of Werewolves. Sauron had already located them and was pursuing them. Haldir later told the Company that orcs had passed up the Silverlode toward Moria about this time, which would have cut them off on the other side of the Redhorn Gate (Pass).

Is Gandalf wrong? Or did the mountain do them a favor by driving them underground, so that they avoided Sauron’s orcs waiting for them on the other side?

[CAB]

But there WAS no storm.



Saruman CONVINCED the members of the Fellowship that there was! :p;)

If that was meant for me then - touche! :D

If not, then never mind.

[Ant]

I have bumped the thread to let Ant and Noble Elf Lord try to persuade us that it was Saruman who made the storm.:p


Actually, I never said that it was Saruman. :P I used Saruman as an example for another argument. Gotta admit though, my memories of the LOTR's are plagued by the dumb ass movie.

There's lots of good points here though, but some of the potential perpatrators named I would say a definate Nay to.

Sauron: Well, it -could- have been Sauron I guess, but personally I don't think that such tactics are really Saurons style.

The Balrog: Definate nay for me. As with Sauron, it aint his style and not only that, but when ya read over all the evidence and what the Balrog is it simply dosent add up. (another point here is that many peoples view of the balrog was permanently clouded by Peter Jackson and all of those. The Balrog was around 7-8 feet tall and looked rather different to the 'cool' beast we see. Where the huge demon of the movies came from I don't know)

Saruman: Possibly. My argument here is that Saruman has methods of persausion. A point I made in another thread is that it could be believed that Tom Bombadil is actually representative of the Sun and Goldberry of the rain (Reread all to do with Bombadil and Goldberry with that in mind. ;) All most certainly not though) and if Bombadil was the Sun, then some other unknown entity may well be the snow and Saruman may have used his powers of persasion on him. Entirely speculative though.

Some other entity/ the mountain itself: For me this is the most likely and could also tie in with the Saruman theory. Tolkien gives life to all things. The trees, plants, weather, rocks...everything. So why would Caradhras be any different? Gimli and the dwarves refer to the mountain as a person, but then again, they are dwarves. The manner in which the mountain acts and thinks is really unimportant. There are trees that have grown to hate all living things, so perhaps the mountain has too. I imagine that he wouldn't like the fact that his insides are full of orcs....maybe he wanted the company to go inside and clear the orcs and Balrog out :D A task they failed.

I mentioned the giants from the hobbit earlier too. I suppose we will never know Tolkiens intentions for many many things in the books. He was a perfectionist and while he dosen't tell us everything that happens, you can be almost certain that he had everything firmly set in his mind.

[Valandil]

Contra the movies, I have never thought thaat Saruman was responsible for the storm on Carhadras. Gimli blamed the mountain itself, and I am inclined to agree. After all, Tom Bombadiil said "I am no weather-master, and naught is that goes on two legs."

Hmmm - I wonder if Bombadil is uninformed. Or if he's just trying to make the Hobbits feel better.

After all - the Witch-King is credited with the storm that sank the Elven ship that attempted to rescue Arvedui and his men. And... I had the distinct impression that Goldberry herself was behind the rainstorm on her 'washing day'. :)

[Butterbeer]

well as to the sinking in the frozen north, it is mere speculation, although personally were I Arvedui, i'd have listened ;)

As to snow in the mountains, it's certainly up for debate, although Saruman i'd certainly rule out :)

and ol' Hop to, my merry fellow?

Not entirely sure VAL i'd use that quote with too much vigour :)

Best BB

[Alcuin]

Bombadil wasn’t trying to control the world around him. He manipulated it, so to speak: he commanded Old Man Willow to let the hobbits go; but he wasn’t controlling or commanding the weather. Until the invention of telegraph and radio for instantaneous long-distance communication, people did not know about weather patterns, something that we now learn as small children watching television weather. As far as I know, Benjamin Franklin is the first person on record to speculate about the motions of weather patterns because of a letter he received from a relative in another city that described a storm that passed several hours before or after one that struck Philadelphia. (There must surely have been earlier people whose notes have not been discovered or popularized.)

Sauron was trying to control the world. He did manipulate the weather. The narrative implies that he manipulated it in Eriador, clearing the sky so that he could look for the Company. He created the Darkness that covered Gondor and Rohan, presumably by altering the activities of Orodruin, but he was responsible for it. The narrative indicates that he was responsible for the wind, hail, driving rain, and lightning that smote the Emyn Muil when Frodo nearly fell off the cliff.

Gimli attributed the storm to Caradhras. Gandalf attributed it to Sauron. The narrative seems to indicate that the mountain seemed to have had some sentience; perhaps it was aroused by Sauron or his evil will.

And as for the Lossoth warning Arvedui that the Witch-king could summon storms in the Bay of Forochel during the winter, that suggests to me that local conditions could have made it easier or harder for a Maia or sorcerer to summon a storm.

So maybe none of them knew what was coming, unless he brought it about himself.

(The sudden idea of Sauron dancing a one-eyed rain dance strikes me as mildly humorous. And the Witch-king as a witch-doctor, tall, skinny, jumping about like a marionette on a string.)

[CAB]

Sauron causing the snowstorm makes little sense to me. He would effectively have been sending the Ring to Saruman or the Balrog.

If Sauron was aware of the company's location after they left Rivendell and before they reached Lorien, then why weren't the Nazgul dispatched to capture the Ring? Why weren't the Orcs that were recently sent to Moria used more intelligently (such as for cutting off the approach to Lorien)?

What is interesting to me is that everyone seems to instantly discount the possibility of the Balrog's involvement. Yet the snowstorm happened basically on the roof of its house (unlike very far away Sauron and Saruman) and placed the Ring within its grasp (again, unlike very far away Sauron and Saruman). Also there is the mountain's very old bad reputation, a reputation probably greatly due to earlier travelers experiencing just what the company did on the Redhorn pass. It would only make perfect sense if the force that caused the problems in the distant past was doing what it had always done. The Balrog is one of only two of our suspects to whom this could apply. Even so, I don't believe it was the Balrog either, because there is a better option.

The Misty Mountains were raised by Melkor to hinder Orome and his hunters. The Redhorn pass is…well a pass over these mountains. I am quite sure that mountain passes often have guards. Now, what kind of guard could Melkor post at this pass who could directly oppose Orome? Answer = None. So, if Melkor wished to defend this pass (and why wouldn't he after he had created the entire mountain range as a barrier?) then he needed someone or something who could deal with Orome and his hunters without directly facing them. Say by throwing bad weather and rock falls at them while, at the same time, remaining secretive to avoid any direct confrontation. Sound familiar? It sure would to the members of the Ring company.

Why would the force associated with the mountain give the company so much trouble when it obviously didn't treat all travelers this way (or the pass wouldn't be a pass at all)? People often say that the presence of the Ring triggered the aggression in the Balrog. I think the same thing applies in the case of the snowstorm.

[barrelrider110]

The last line of Chapter 3:
Caradhras had defeated them.

Whether the snowstorm was coincidental, an act of the malice of the mountain, or a contrivance of an enemy, none can be ruled out. It's one of Tolkien's enigmas left for us to forever debate. That's one of the reasons this story is so wonderfully enthralling.

There were signs of a coming snowstorm even before the Fellowship began to attempt the pass:
There was a black look in the sky, and the sun was wan. The wind had gone now round to the north-east. Gandalf snuffed the air and looked back. `Winter deepens behind us,’ he said quietly to Aragorn. ‘The heights away north are whiter than they were; snow is lying far down their shoulders. Tonight we shall be on our way high up towards the Redhorn Gate. We may well be seen by watchers on that narrow path, and waylaid by some evil; but the weather may prove a more deadly enemy than any. What do you think of your course now, Aragorn?’

A contrivance of Saruman? Maybe. Maybe the crebain were sent by Saruman, but he would have tried to steer the company toward the Gap of Rohan, not Moria.

A contrivance of Sauron? Maybe. Since he Nazgul were unhorsed, what servants did he have left at the time?
‘I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,’ said Boromir. ‘They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.’
‘His arm has grown long indeed,’ said Gimli, `if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.’
‘His arm has grown long,’ said Gandalf.


Sauron, too, may have tried to steer the Fellowship closer to Isengard, to Saruman or even kill the company and search for the ring in the snow.

I think a snowstorm was far too subtle a device for either one.

`Ah, it is as I said,’ growled Gimli. ‘It was no ordinary storm. It is the ill will of Caradhras. He does not love Elves and Dwarves, and that drift was laid to cut off our escape.’

The mountain itself seems the most likely agent of the snowstorm, other than just bad luck.

Caradhras had defeated them.

But the storm was gathering before the Fellowship started the climb up the pass. This may sound dreadfully dull, but I believe the snowstorm was not contrived by anybody. I think it was purely a 'coincidence.'

[Coffeehouse]

I happen to believe the Fellowship simply had bad luck. Yet that does not have to rule out an indirect influence of f.ex. Sauron. Perhaps the Lord of the Rings' erupting darkness and stirring of the weathersystems in Mordor led to greater instability than was usual in Middle Earth? Who knows, perhaps the foul weather and bitter winter that came across the Fellowship in the Misty Mountains was a result of this?
"Caradhras had defeated them" might merely mean that Caradhras, the menacingly high mountain, which frankly it was madness to test in any case, was impenetrable in the midst of winter?
When Gandalf says "..but the weather may prove a more deadly enemy than any" that could be telling, just as one of the worst enemies of the Wehrmacht in Operation Barbarossa was the icy Russian winter (the worst in many years), yet nobody would blame Stalin for the weather in Stalingrad (or would they:D)

[Scrooge]

And about Gandalf. IMO, he was reluctant to light a fire not because of the restrictions laid on Istari, but because he supposed that SOMEONE was actually WATCHING! And that means, by the way, that he didn't think that it was the mountain itself that caused him problems.

Hi everyone!

Gordis, having spent the evening beginning to read these boards, I must say I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge of this tale! However, here I must disagree with your last sentence: if Gandalf thought that someone was watching the party and causing the storm, announcing his presence through a pyrotechnic display would have been a moot point, as said watcher would have already seen him (Gandalf, of course). Rather, being concerned about his use of magic announcing "Gandalf is here!" indicates that he believes the storm was chance or caused by un-aligned forces, and Saruman or Sauron might happen to notice the fireworks. Of course, Gandalf believing that it was not caused by one of the primary enemies has no bearing on whether it actually was.

Also, I don't believe it was chance. The text is very clear (though I only have audiobook handy, so no quotes) that the snowstorm had an extremely abrupt edge, like a cartoon raincloud over someone's head. The specific reference was to Aragorn and Boromir pushing through the extremely deep snow and suddenly bursting out of a drifted wall into a much more mild patch of weather. Further, there is a reference to the storm easing the instant the company turns back, and raging only when they attempt to press forward. My personal belief is that it is the ill will of Caradras, be it the mountain itself or the very interesting rogue Maia.

[Scrooge]

Just re-read this bit from TTT:

[Bit from TTT about the core of the eart being gnawed by nameless things]

While I actually find that to be one of the most intriguing lines in the tale, I take it to mean that those nameless things have no interest in, nor knowledge of, the world above them, and it is in our best interest to keep it that way. Certainly, if they had an interest in making the company pass through Moria, they would have sought to capitalize on succeeding, would they not?

[Scrooge]

Thank you Gordis. Let me ask your opinion on this, I think it is related to the snowstorm question. It seems pretty clear that the Sirannon was dammed so the Watcher in the Water could guard the West gate of Moria. Only the inhabitants of Moria would take the trouble to do this, but it is doubtful that the Orcs could or would want to coax the Watcher to the newly created pool. This suggests that the Balrog was involved. Also look at the timing of the Watcher’s attack. It waits until just after the doors are opened (the company has been sitting outside the doors for quite a while) and then goes straight for the Ringbearer and no one else. It takes one half-hearted shot at capturing the ring immediately and when this fails it goes back to the real plan which is to force the ring towards the Balrog. If it had attacked moments earlier the company probably would have never entered Moria. The Watcher even goes so far as to bar the door after the company has gone inside. I think this is a pretty drastic move unless it is aware of the importance of the situation or has been given direct orders to do this. One other thing, although it seems a little improbable. The wolves that the company encounters could also be serving the Balrog. It was the only real power in the area. Maybe they weren’t really trying to kill the company but (along with the Watcher and whatever made the snowstorm) were merely forcing them to go to Moria.

I don't think the Watcher waited until the last minute because it wanted to ensure they went in and stayed in, rather, I believe it was only accustomed to paying attention to creattures that disturbed its pool. The Book of Marzarbul indicated that when Balin's folk were attempting to retake Moria the water was "up to the West Gate", meaning that the Watcher would have noticed any would-be entrant from that direction. It seems likely to me that, had Merry (was it him or Pippin?) not thrown that stone into the water, the company would have gone unhindered.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I thought it was Boromir.

[Gordis]

Gordis, having spent the evening beginning to read these boards, I must say I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge of this tale! However, here I must disagree with your last sentence: if Gandalf thought that someone was watching the party and causing the storm, announcing his presence through a pyrotechnic display would have been a moot point, as said watcher would have already seen him (Gandalf, of course). Rather, being concerned about his use of magic announcing "Gandalf is here!" indicates that he believes the storm was chance or caused by un-aligned forces, and Saruman or Sauron might happen to notice the fireworks. Of course, Gandalf believing that it was not caused by one of the primary enemies has no bearing on whether it actually was.
OK, I concede you the point, Scrooge.
Welcome to the Moot!

[Alcuin]

It is possible that Saruman or Sauron might not have been able to see Gandalf as they could the rest of the Company of the Ring. Galadriel told the Company when she first met them (FotR, “Mirror of Galadriel”) that

I cannot see [Gandalf] from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlórien: a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me.


But if he lit a fire in a howling blizzard, and it looked the fireworks at Bilbo’s birthday party, then those would be signs that Gandalf is here “that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin.”

I wonder if Tolkien had a specific chemical reaction in mind here. Copper (I) mixed with boron results in a “Violent reaction with incandescence” according to a Material Safety Data Sheet from Analytical Products Group (http://www.apgqa.com/msds/70028.pdf). Copper (I) burns blue, while boron burns bright green in flame tests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_test). If he did not himself know an appropriate reaction, there were many outstanding chemists at Oxford (and Cambridge) of whom he could inquire.Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws)