What language was spoken in Utumno and Angband?

[Gordis]

I wonder about it..

Was it Quenia? Was it the tongue of the Valar and Maiar, which I dimly remember was totally different from the speech of the Quendi?

Or has Morgoth invented the Black Speech already?

But here I am also confused, as I remember it was Sauron who invented the Black Speech, not Morgoth.

Anybody knows the answers?

[arvedui_last_king]

Tolkien never says, as far as I can remember. However, it certainly wasn't Quenya or Sindarin, Tolkien's 'beautiful' languages. I suppose Morgoth could have invented a speech for the Orcs, or the orcs could have debased and perverted the elvish speech. Also, does it say when Sauron created the Black Speech? As far as I can remember, Tolkien just says he created it for his servants. As we know, Sauron was the lieutenant of Morgoth, and had many orcs under his command. So, he could have invented the Black Speech in the First Age of the Children of Iluvatar. Namarie!

[Maerbenn]

Also, does it say when Sauron created the Black Speech? As far as I can remember, Tolkien just says he created it for his servants. As we know, Sauron was the lieutenant of Morgoth, and had many orcs under his command. So, he could have invented the Black Speech in the First Age of the Children of Iluvatar.From Appendix F:It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he had desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose.The Dark Years are presumably the same as the ‘Black Years’ mentioned in The Fellowship of the Ring; Chapter 2 ‘The Shadow of the Past’. They are in The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion defined as:The latter part of the Second Age marked by the forging of the Rings of Power, the dominion of Sauron over much of Middle-earth, his war against the Elves and Men, the fall of Númenor, and the defeat of Sauron by the Last Alliance.

[Olmer]

Was it Quenia? Was it the tongue of the Valar and Maiar, which I dimly remember was totally different from the speech of the Quendi?

Or has Morgoth invented the Black Speech already?
I think Morgoth employed the most ancient language - unmoderated Quenya, the first language of the Elves, the language which for long time stayed unchanged among Dark Elves -Avari, who, in fact, were real teachers of just arrived Younger children of Iluvatar - Atani, who were shunned by the Eldar.
So,the first, who came under influence of Morgoth, were Avari with their language, then Atani, who also were speaking an ancient Quenya.
Naturally, since it was the most used language, it became more conventional in Angband.

[Gordis]

I think you are right there, Olmer.
Good point about the avari.
Also, Sauron was not so prominent under Melkor, as to decide on the language that was spoken in Angband. If Morgoth wanted the Black Speech, he would have devised it himself, IMHO. Also most of the names we know from the First Age Dark Side are Quenia.

But still...still *sigh*, I would LOVE to see Tolkien's quote on the subject, if one exists. Or is there really NONE?

[Valandil]

Good topic.

Another clue that an Elven language was used (either Quenya or Snidarin) is the nomenclature.

I remember offhand that the First Age dragons named have Elven names (I forget if Q or S). I have not cross-checked with other names - but we may well find a consistent pattern.

Part of this too - is that Tolkien was inventing the Elven languages as he wrote these stories - and had not invented the Black Speech yet.

[Olmer]

Also, Sauron was not so prominent under Melkor, as to decide on the language that was spoken in Angband. If Morgoth wanted the Black Speech, he would have devised it himself, IMHO. Also most of the names we know from the First Age Dark Side are Quenia.

Actually it says that Morgoth eventually developed the Black Speech. I guess he got tired to hear that hateful melodic language of the supposed to be protegies of his enemies , and just in spite created a tongue-twisting speech.(Kind like saying Bzhezinsky in Polish, or Mkrtchan in Georgian, no pun intended :D ;) )
"The Orcs had language of their own, devised for them by the Dark Lord of old, but it was full of harsh and hideous sounds and vile words that other mouth found it difficult to compass, and few indeed were willing to make the attempt." (HOME.XII. On languages)
At Sauron's time most of Middle-earth dwellers, including orcs, surviving dragons and balrogs, were using Common Speech for a communication convenience. :)

[Gordis]

Well, I can't say that "Ash Nazg drabatuluk" etc. is overly tongue-twisting. :p
Seems a nice language to me. :evil:

But there is clearly a disaccord between HOME 12 and the Appendices...
Very interesting...

I think, Morgoth devising the BS makes more sense... I just can't see orcs talking Quenia for thousands of years. :)

[Olmer]

I just can't see orcs talking Quenia for thousands of years. :)
Then it arises another question, this time about orcs: who were they at the beginning, if not corrupted and then twisted Avari? Look like Thingol quite openly did not like northern brunch of elves, because they were seems quite willingly "entering his(the Dark Lord ) service and providing him with spies ". (HOME.XII)
The word "orc" urch - urco means in elvish not a hideous race, but an enemy per se.

[CAB]

In the Silmarillion it says that when the Elves of Beleriand first came upon the Orcs they thought the Orcs to be “Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild”. They had already met the Dwarves long before and apparently recognized them immediately as a separate speaking race. Could it be the reason they thought the Orcs might be Avari is due to the language they heard the Orcs speaking?

[Gordis]

Very probably, CAB, these first freshly-made orcs were speaking Quenia.

The origin of Orcs from Avari was the original concept of the Silm, and though Tolkien tried to change it afterwards, it still persisted. (At least some of the first orcs had to be Elves).

[Olmer]

Could it be the reason they thought the Orcs might be Avari is due to the language they heard the Orcs speaking?
Good point about language CAB! Also it could be that so-called orcs did not look too different from the elves, "in form they were like unto the children of Iluvatar, yet foul to look upon" (HOME.X The annals of Aman).
Actually, they were elves, as beautiful in body, as any Quendi, but , I suppose, with war paint on faces, which was giving a hideous look, otherwise the language and the shapes were of Quendi ."...a darker tale some yet tell in Eressea, saying that the Orcs were verily in their beginning of the Quendi themselves, a kindred of the Avari unhappy whom Morgoth cozened..."(HOME.X The annals of Aman).

[Maerbenn]

(HOME.XII The annals of Aman).‘The Annals of Aman’ are in volume X. ;)

[Olmer]

‘The Annals of Aman’ are in volume X. ;)
Yeh, right. Are you gonna add something more to conversation,besides the correction. I'm sure , with your knowledge you will have something to say. ;) :)

[Curufin]

Why wouldn't he have been speaking Valarin?

I can't imagine he would go to the trouble of creating a new language - seems more the type that would force people to use his own.

[Gordis]

Why wouldn't he have been speaking Valarin?

I can't imagine he would go to the trouble of creating a new language - seems more the type that would force people to use his own.

I think in Utumno they did speak Valarin all right - what else could they (Melkor and his Maiar) speak before Elves have awoken? It were Elves who devised Quenia after all.

But Valarin is a very difficult language, with very long tongue-twisting words. I doubt orcs could have easily learned it. Then teaching Valarin to them was a huge task - why bother if they already had the language of their own?

Also, consider Morgoth's feelings: he already had a huge grudge against his fellow-Valar, but he had none against the Children (yet;)). For by after-knowledge the wise declare that Melkor, ever watchful, was first aware of the awakening of the Quendi, and sent shadows and evil spirits to spy upon them and waylay them. So I guess he would have preferred Quenia to Valarin as an official language of his Dark Fortresses, at least initially.

But later, in the Age of the Sun, it seems that Morgoth had developed an even bigger grudge against the Eldar - all because of Fëanor and the Noldor. So that may have been the time when he started to develop the Black Speech for his orcs. But, more likely, he simply didn't have time to teach it to all Angband - the FA was not that long.
So it likely was Sauron who endeavoured to spread the BS among the broad masses. He failed, maybe because the High Black Speech was by no means an easy language. The orcs debased it to the point that different tribes had to use Westron to talk to each other.
Sauron failed to found a "Gorgoroth University of Languages and Fine Arts", so the only people who used the correct BS were himself and his nazgul.:p

[Amael]

Sauron failed to found a "Gorgoroth University of Languages and Fine Arts", so the only people who used the correct BS were himself and his nazgul.:p

Although he did found the "Eregion Community College of Chicanery and Forge Works". Celebrimbor passed with flying colors, but Elrond, Galadrial, and Gil-Galad were last in their class. :D

I imagine the language of Utumno and Angband to be sort of like a twisting of all other languages Morgoth had encountered, filled wwith cursing, harsher and more evil tones, and lies. The Valarin language was itself harsh-sounding to any who were to hear it for the first time. I wish we had some kind of appendix for Valarin because I'm sure it had something tto do with the first language Morgoth made for his beasts.

Sauron seemed disorganized mostt of the time. He should have easily won very quickly on many occasions but I think that you're right in saying ...

The orcs debased it to the point that different tribes had to use Westron to talk to each other.

They seemed to know that one at leastt to some extent. Some orcs would speak in different dialects. Eventually you'd have the Morgul tongue, the Gorgoroth tongue, the Angmarish tongue (new word), the Dol Guldur tongue, and so on. When arraying all of those orcs for battle, you're trying to organize many different tribes who really probably don't speak the same dialect. In some dialects, "I wish to fight beside you so that we may share a feast of man flesh" to another tribe may mean "I wish to fight you so that I can eat your liver" and that is usually pretty disastrous amongst the orcs.

When even people speaking the same language and dialect misunderstand each other at times, the Orcs were obviously not too intelligent, and so that issue is magnified. So you can imagine the results on the battlefield when separate slave masters are trying to keep order between perhaps 2 or 3 tribes.

Would they stand in a line to allow the enemy approach them and then pull out their spears and clobber the front line of the incoming waves? Probably not in unison as the Elves would. Would they know the difference between a larger concentration of enemy forces and a lightly-armed and less concentrated portion? On the battlefield that's hard to see sometimes when there's confusion everywhere, and the orcs seem to be confused all of the time. To them, man flesh and elf flesh is man flesh and elf flesh. They'll get it even if they have to die for it, so they'll attack in places that aren't particularly that beneficial for their forces, or for Sauron.

Morgoth had more intelligent servants to command his orcs for him, such as Sauron, the Balrogs, even dragons and others. He had, Lord knows how many orcs. But he was organized and his influence was even known to be greater than his replacement. Morgoth emanated ferocity, anger, destruction, and total evil. Sauron emanated chicanery, lies, "gifts", and among those intelligence. He relied on stealth and lies more than power and destruction, his assumption that the Elves would so lightly fall to the power of the One Ring proved that. He failed quickly with the Elves. Whereas Morgoth would not need a backup plan to fall on (he would have just killed them all flat-out), Sauron knew very well that he needed a backup plan, the Men and Dwarves being those plans. The Dwarves likely didn't fall to it so well either, but the Men did (as we've seen *sigh* countless times throughout the second and third ages). The Witch-King was once a living man, likely a once-very-powerful man. With that and his studies under Sauron, he gained great power. The Witch-King bears more of a resemblance to Morgoth than Sauron. He relied on more power than anything. His servants were only a whisper away even if they were far away. He slaughtered Arnor almost entirely. If not for Glorfindel, some Dwarves, and yes, Hobbits too, Angmar would have probably been Sauron's vacation spot, forever. To know your enemy, you must respect, at leastt to a point, your enemy, because to hate something that much, you must have some small level of respect for them. Sauron's intelligence was great, his wisdom was amongst the greats of his time. Lies, deceit, "Trojan Horses", and so on are devised by those with at least some measure of intelligence. The Elves in union were more intelligent and resisted Annatar. Sauron was obviously stronger in mind, wit, and power than the Men, until Aragorn was crept from the North and his slowly but surely-increasing forces would put a very noticeable, very actionable problem right on Sauron's front door, without him even seeing it, until it was much too late. But there was none like Morgoth. Some seem to agree that he was the most mighty of the Valar, perhaps more powerful than most of them if not all of them. He likely taught Sauron at least most of what he knew, saving some of the more effective pieces only for himself. To be a true master, there are some secrets you must hold to yourself. And Morgoth was a true master. He was always powerful, even after cast from the order of the Valar, he still remained unchanged in most ways (being cast from the order probably just magnified his anger and thus his power). Morgoth's power is something just about anyone would have to say "wow" to, even the other Valar would have to have been somewhat impressed. Bringing all of the races against Morgoth in unison to bring down Morgoth after (what length of time was it) days, weeks, months, the War of Wrath was, that's truly spectacular!:eek:

Why wouldn't he have been speaking Valarin?

I can't imagine he would go to the trouble of creating a new language - seems more the type that would force people to use his own.

Indeed, he likely spoke it at least most of the time. There's no better language. Afterall, he fully intended to better his own master, and hold the throne of Arda and all of Ea (the Universe) for himself. Why not use Valarin and perhaps make foul alterations to it to serve his own purpose? Morgoth's language would be one that the Valar would use, except with naughty and fouler sounding words and phrases.

In the Silmarillion it says that when the Elves of Beleriand first came upon the Orcs they thought the Orcs to be “Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild”. They had already met the Dwarves long before and apparently recognized them immediately as a separate speaking race. Could it be the reason they thought the Orcs might be Avari is due to the language they heard the Orcs speaking?

Something I had not considered, but wholly possible. Not all of the Avari would fall to this evil, some stayed and like was said earlier they taught the Atani their languages, skills, and so on. I've always believed that the Men gained most of their power from the Avari, that they would have no been able to resist the bite of a horsefly without their help (I'm speaking in exaggerations of course).:D

[Ingwe]

Black tongue is a reference to any harsh speech in any of the languages of the free peoples of Middle Earth. You could even call it the "enslaved speech".

Morgoth took some Elves, bred them with beasts, twisted them, mutilated them, made variations of his creations, and so on. He did the same with the languages of the free. Morgoth mocked anything good. Keep in mind that he was jealous of the others, they were not outcast. Being outcast from the Valar is probably what pissed Morgoth off the most. He was like a disgruntled employee, except trillions of times more powerful.

Sauron and Saruman were servants of Aule the Smith, and so often his subjects turned to evil. Aule was the Obi-wan of the Valar, his teachings went to bad uses at times. He almost had to hammer his own creation, the Dwarves, before Eru gave them parole and put them to sleep to await the coming of the Elves. Sauron and Saruman knew similar things. The story to them is all within Aule's nickname, Aule the Smith. Experience in ring lore was probably to be expected from any of Aule's servants. Such as it is, Sauron was good earlier on and his old buddy Morgoth came along and taught him some "things". Just as prejudice is sometimes learned from parent to child, such as it was with Sauron.

Sauron would inherit the same kind of black speech most likely, modifying it to his own uses.

Anyway, all in all a good post A'mael, much of it was not exactly sticking with the point of the thread, but it all had a good point. But Tolkien never made an official language for the black tongue, because that's all it was really known as. It's a twisted combination of Valarin, Quendi, and later on Westron which itself was crept from Quendi, when the humans were young and in the far east, in Hildorien, during a time when the first shadow had passed on.

The history of the First Age is so contorted with so many migrations, so much translation, and so little understood in between the few details there were, as the First Age of Men was NOT the full entirety of the First Age, which started with the coming of the Elves some 4,000 or more years before. And pretty much everything happened during those days. The Elves arrived, some of them moving on, some remaining where they are, some moving on but settling elsewhere for a time, some who started the journey but never going to Valinor at all being the Úmanyar, and the corruption, torture, and twisting of the Elves (perhaps themselves breeding with other beasts) to form the orcs, the destruction of the Two Trees, the downfall of Cuivienen, the destruction of Utumno, the arrival of men and their own eventual learning of their languages and their fleeing to the west as then friends of the Elves, the arrival of the Dwarves at around the same time the Elves awoke, the founding of the seven clans (four clans remaining in the east, the other three going to the west), and the eventual sum of the First Age coming with the War of Wrath and the casting of two Silmarils into the Earth (one to water, the other to stone, and fire), the shining Silmaril in the sky with Earendil as bearer, and the utter conclusion of the age (not to mention Ulfang and the founding of Easterling cultures settling first in Eriador, moving eastward to Rhovanion, Dorwinion, Rhun, perhaps the innermost lands and beyond).

So as far as a theory I could give on the languages founded in this short (4,550 years) span:
- The beginning: No language, music, creation, Arda born.
- The 15 coming onto Earth: Valarin.
- The fall of Morgoth: Twisting of Valarin to heckle the other Valar. (How dare they cast me from the order, I'm the most powerful and they have betrayed me, so I shall damage them by mocking all that they do, where there is water I will breed fire, where there is life I will breed death, where the secret fire is, I will find it and use it against them and twist all of them even up to Manwe if I can).
- Arrival of the Elves: Shadows from the north abduct the Firstborn Children of Iluvatar, putting them through terrible suffering, pain, and breeding with other beasts or twisting the Elves themselves into unrecognizable and utterly different and ruined forms, physically, spiritually, and mentally. The black tongue would now absorb and twist Quenya. No doubt Morgoth had some knowledge of Khuzdul, the Dwarven language kept most secret to the point that today it would be classified above the knowledge of even James Bond.
- Arrival of Men: Once Angband became aware of this new 'intrusion', Morgoth would no doubt hear their words when many of these men were imprisoned, tortured, and so forth. The black tongue would absorb and twist the beginnings of Westron.
? Languages of the Ents (Entish): Perhaps some Ents had been converted into Trolls upon being captured, perhaps not. Not much is known of how the trolls were made as far as I'm aware. Obviously Morgoth wouldn't waste his time in learning the languages of the Ents unless it would give him some tactical advantage. Even in the First Age, the Ents were probably mostly ignored and not considered much of a threat...except to lesser orcs and Dwarves, the latter of which gave the Ents a purpose - to herd the forests and protect the trees from being cut with axe or blade or other smith-work. The relationship between the Dwarves and all other races in Middle Earth obviously was not too great at all during this time (the Elves hunted Dwarves as game, particularly the "Petty" Dwarves who were hunted to extinction).

And in the Second Age:
- "Eastron" or languages of the East, Sauron would now absorb these languages in alliance with Rhun and Khand.
- "Southron" or those languages of the south, including the sandy lands of Near Harad and the rocky scorched desserts of Far Harad where apparently some forest had been there earlier which still may be around during the third age. Sauron would absorb this into the black tongue as well.

And in the Third:
- Through the Nazgul - "Shire...Baggins!" Sauron's spirit would be aware of the Hobbits.

The Black speech can be called many things - "Enslaved tongue", "Twisted speech", and so forth. All of those descriptions would be accurate.

Morgoth was like the Borg. He "assimilated" anything around him and turned it to his own tactical, biological, and technical advantage. Him and Sauron had technologies at least somewhat more advanced than the combined know-how of the Elves, Dwarves, Men, and any other free folk.

On a side note, I would not underplay Sauron too much either. He unlike Morgoth (Morgoth needed no servant) was trained by Aule, like Saruman was. Sauron like all villains became cocky and messed up. If he would have taken more secretive and defensive precautions, he would not have been easy prey. Sauron was not as powerful as Morgoth, but Sauron was still not weak by any measure. He was only a Maia of Aule, not a fallen Valar, but his efforts in technology were noteworthy. He made a tower a mile tall and forged a ring capable of corrupting all in his grasp. Sauron's weaknesses were Morgoth's strengths and Morgoth's weaknesses were Sauron's strengths. They both had one true weakness, arrogance. Arrogance has destroyed most all empires that have ever lived on Earth, and that's just one of the many lessons the stories tell. While I don't know the details either, particularly on that of languages, every story has its "Borg" that steal and twist artifacts from their enemies. The Borg would be no other than the Dark Lord, either Morgoth or Sauron.

[Gordis]

Black tongue is a reference to any harsh speech in any of the languages of the free peoples of Middle Earth. You could even call it the "enslaved speech".
Tolkien never made an official language for the black tongue, because that's all it was really known as. It's a twisted combination of Valarin, Quendi, and later on Westron …
The Black speech can be called many things - "Enslaved tongue", "Twisted speech", and so forth. All of those descriptions would be accurate.

I believe you are wrong, Ingwe, in thinking that the Black Speech is nothing but a "twisted" combination of other tongues. It is not. It is a different language devised by Sauron to be used by his subjects. It was a constructed language, with quite complex grammar, specifically meant to sound harsh and powerful. Tolkien describes the language as existing in two forms, the ancient "pure" forms used by Sauron himself and the nazgul and the debased form used by orcs.

'The Black Speech was not intentionally modeled on any style, but was meant to be self-consistent, very different from Elvish, yet organized and expressive, as would be expected of a device of Sauron before his complete corruption. It was evidently an agglutinative language, and the verbal system must have included pronominal suffixes expressing the object, as well as those indicating the subject: -ul is a pl. objective, translated 'them', and -ûk an element meaning 'the whole, all (thrakatalûk I 267 is a misprint for -ulûk, a correctly written in the flame letters). The stem burz 'dark' is also found in the later Lugbûrz = Barad-dûr; in the archaic ring-inscription burzumishi is evidently made up of this stem + a particularizing suffix or 'article' um, and an enclitic 'preposition' ish 'in, inside'. The debased form of the B. S. which survived in the Third Age only in the Dark Tower is seen in a few names (as Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk') and the fragment of vituperation uttered by one of Grishnakh's companions, emissaries from Sauron. I have tried to play fair linguistically, and it is meant to have a meaning and not to be a mere casual group of nasty noises, though an accurate translation would even nowadays only be printable in the higher and artistically more advanced forms of literature. According to my taste such things are best left to Orcs, ancient and modern.'
The Editorial note explains: 'This is from the carbon copy of a letter to Mr. W. R. Matthews (dated 13-15 June 1964), which Tolkien placed in the same file with the manuscript of 'Words, Phrases and Passages'. Parma Eldalamberon 17
Some speculate that Tolkien may have drawn upon the language of the ancient Hittites for his Black Speech.

[Valarauko5]

Being a newbie I am a bit nervous to get in on this but being somewhat of a student of different languages and growing up in a four (yes four) language household I feel a need to say something here. Gordis has a good point. Morgoth and Sauron were very intelligent and would be the type to devise their own language. But if you go back to the Fellowship of the Ring, things become a bit clearer. Firstly, Frodo knows Elven. We know he knows Quenya because he speaks it fluently enough to an actual elf to be understood. Second, when he looks at the ring after Gandalf pulls it out of the fire, he says "it looks like some kind of Elvish" and if you have ever looked at the references for it, it is actually in the Elvish script of Tengwar. Thirdly, and finally, as I have been learning Quenya as a speakable language, comparing the way that the "ring rhyme" (if you will forgive the pun) is spelled and pronounced, it appears very very similar to Third Age Quenya. Thus I would conclude that the "black speech" as it is called by Elrond in Rivendell when Gandalf speaks it, is actually a version of First Age Quenya modified slightly by Morgoth to fit as a more commanding, and twisted language.

[Gordis]

Thirdly, and finally, as I have been learning Quenya as a speakable language, comparing the way that the "ring rhyme" (if you will forgive the pun) is spelled and pronounced, it appears very very similar to Third Age Quenya. Thus I would conclude that the "black speech" as it is called by Elrond in Rivendell when Gandalf speaks it, is actually a version of First Age Quenya modified slightly by Morgoth to fit as a more commanding, and twisted language.

What similarities do you actually see between Quienia and the BS? Could you, please, be more specific?
And Welcome to the Moot, Valarauko!

[Varnafindë]

Thirdly, and finally, as I have been learning Quenya as a speakable language, comparing the way that the "ring rhyme" (if you will forgive the pun) is spelled and pronounced, it appears very very similar to Third Age Quenya. Thus I would conclude that the "black speech" as it is called by Elrond in Rivendell when Gandalf speaks it, is actually a version of First Age Quenya modified slightly by Morgoth to fit as a more commanding, and twisted language.

Very interesting, Valarauko!
I would think that First Age Quenya would need a LOT of modification to become something looking like the language on the One Ring, though.

[Valarauko5]

The similarities are mainly in the vowels. So far as I can tell, in the first movie Gandalf pronounces everything perfectly in Elven, right down to the word "Mellon" (pronounced Mel-Lawn or something quite close to that), and when speaks (as Elrond says "in the black speech") the ring rhyme in Rivendell the vowels sound just like they do in Quenya. Right down to the u's being pronounced like they are in the English "put" rather than "brute" as a short "u" should be. Now, granted, the rhyme uses a slightly different spelling, especially for the "k" sound, but early Quenya used a "k" for that sound. Only in the third age was it spelled "c" but even at that a "c" is always pronounced like a "k" in Quenya. In addition, I will admit that the stress on the syllables is slightly off, but that could easily be Morgoth's version of Quenya, modified to sound more overpowering and intimidating.
For example, "Ash nazg, durbatuluk" or "One Ring to rule them all"
"Ash" in third age quenya would be spelled "ahy" because the "hy" is pronounced like the German "ch" as in "ich" which some Human speakers would pronounce "sh". This is thus an easy way to see how Morgoth could corrupt the language. In addition, if you look at the word "nazg" and compare to the Elven "Nazgul" They are pronounced EXACTLY alike in the movie by Aragorn and Gandalf. These two are actually the best at pronouncing Elven according to several sources so we can generally assume that they know what they're saying.
Also, if you look at:
http://khallandra.tripod.com/sindarin/classes.htm
in the alphabet of Tengwar, it would appear that the script used is quite strangely, the exact same alphabet as all Elven language. Granted, I am not a master of Sindarin or Quenya, But from the studies I have done on it, it would seem that Morgoth pulled a fast one on the Elves with this. To be honest, I would do the same thing. Why wast your time making your own language when you can corrupt the beautiful and elegant language of your hated foe into something for them to be scared of?
Does this make sense to you guys? I can come up with a couple of other examples if you'd like. These were just the easiest to explain.

[Gordis]

Hmm... sounds very interesting. Yet I have some doubts.
The similarities are mainly in the vowels. So far as I can tell, in the first movie Gandalf pronounces everything perfectly in Elven, right down to the word "Mellon" (pronounced Mel-Lawn or something quite close to that), and when speaks (as Elrond says "in the black speech") the ring rhyme in Rivendell the vowels sound just like they do in Quenya. Right down to the u's being pronounced like they are in the English "put" rather than "brute" as a short "u" should be.

But look, there is a lot of real world languages that pronounce "u" mostly if not always like in "put", not like in "brute" or in "must". The fact that both Quenia and the BS pronounce 'u" unlike it is in English, doesn't really make them related.;)


For example, "Ash nazg, durbatuluk" or "One Ring to rule them all"
"Ash" in third age quenya would be spelled "ahy" because the "hy" is pronounced like the German "ch" as in "ich" which some Human speakers would pronounce "sh". This is thus an easy way to see how Morgoth could corrupt the language.
This is interesting and new for me.

In addition, if you look at the word "nazg" and compare to the Elven "Nazgul" They are pronounced EXACTLY alike in the movie by Aragorn and Gandalf.
Sorry, "Nazgûl" is NOT Elvish. It is a word of the Black Tongue translated "Ringwraith" or "Ulairi" in Elvish


Also, if you look at:
http://khallandra.tripod.com/sindarin/classes.htm
in the alphabet of Tengwar, it would appear that the script used is quite strangely, the exact same alphabet as all Elven language.
You mean the script on the One Ring? It IS Elvish indeed.:D
I cannot read the fiery letters,’ said Frodo in a quavering voice.
‘No,’ said Gandalf, ‘but I can. The letters are Elvish, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Mordor- "The Shadow of the Past"

Granted, I am not a master of Sindarin or Quenya, But from the studies I have done on it, it would seem that Morgoth pulled a fast one on the Elves with this. To be honest, I would do the same thing. Why wast your time making your own language when you can corrupt the beautiful and elegant language of your hated foe into something for them to be scared of?
Does this make sense to you guys? I can come up with a couple of other examples if you'd like. These were just the easiest to explain.
Perhaps Melkor and Sauron loved to invent new languages as much as Tolkien himself did?;)
You see, I am not a language expert - not even close - so I may be totally wrong. However, I heard Quenia was based on Finnish. The BS, some experts say, is very close to ancient Hittite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites). As Finnish is hardly related to Hittite :rolleyes:...well you understand.

[Earniel]

"Ash" in third age quenya would be spelled "ahy" because the "hy" is pronounced like the German "ch" as in "ich" which some Human speakers would pronounce "sh".
I know next to nothing about Quenya, but I know enough German to known that the German 'ch' as in 'ich' is never pronounced 'sh'.

[Galin]

Sorry, "Nazgûl" is NOT Elvish. It is a word of the Black Tongue translated "Ringwraith"...

And regarding the word nazg '(finger-) ring', Tolkien writes (in part): 'This was devised to be a vocable as distinct in style and phonetic content from words of the same meaning in Elvish, or in other real languages that are most familiar: English, Latin, Greek, etc...' (letter 297).

One Quenya word for 'ring' is corma, but in Vinyar Tengwar 17 Carl Hostetter suggests that BS nazg was a possibe developement of Quenya natse 'web, net' from a root NAT- (itself related to root NUT- 'tie bind'). I won't set out the argument here, but I will note that Mr. Hostetter does not see a necessary contradiction between his suggestion and Tolkien's comments in the letter to Mr. Rang (letter 297).

To try and keep things distinct, this is the Black Speech developed by Sauron in the Second Age, while the thread (initially anyway) concerns an earlier time.

You mean the script on the One Ring? It IS Elvish indeed.

Yes, and just to add, the Tengwar has been used to write a variety of languages, including Modern English. Frodo cannot read the Black Speech of course, though the letter forms (in general) were used for representing the Common Speech as well.

Perhaps Melkor and Sauron loved to invent new languages as much as Tolkien himself did?

In Enquiry into the Communication of Thought (Vinyar Tengwar 39) Manwe is reported to have said about Melkor:

'(...) From the first he was greatly interested in 'language', that talent that the Eruhini would have by nature; but we did not at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it, and Aule above all. But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you should speak with him beware!'

'Alas!' says Pengolodh, 'in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with such mastery that all the Eldar were amaze, for his use could not be bettered, scarce equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters.'

At the moment I can't recall another text about this language invented by Melkor for his servants. In my opinion this need not contradict what is stated in Appendix F however, that the Orcs had no language of their own '... but took what they could of other tongues and perverted it to their liking; yet they made only brutal jargons, scarcely sufficient even for their own needs,...'

In the Narn we find the word Golug, an Orc-name for the Noldor, which could be a corruption of Sindarin Golodh (or so some have suggested at least). I think it's interesting that according to the text Quendi And Eldar the Sindarin form Golodh itself 'seems to have been phonetically unpleasing to the Noldor', so that the Noldor using Sindarin did not use this term, and it fell out of use among those friendly to them.

The essay Quendi And Eldar is from The War of the Jewels.

[Gordis]

Hi, Galin! Great to have an expert on languages here.:)

I have a question for you, as we were already discussung the word "nazgûl"

Here is what I've posted on another forum:

About "Khamûl". Nobody knows what language is that. A good guess would be the Black Tongue.

If so, please compare the words "nazgûl" and "Khamûl". The first Black Tongue word is no mystery:
"nazgûl"= "ringwraith"
"nazg"="ring"
"ûl"="wraith"

My guess that "ûl" in "Khamûl" also means "wraith", "shadow".
And then it becomes obvious that it was the nickname given to the nazgûl after he had become a wraith, not at his birth. The "Shadow of the East" that goes after "Khamul" (UT) may be a simple translation of the name. Especially considering that in the East there is a realm called "Khand", which quite probably means "Eastern land".

In reply I got this comment, but without the exact reference:
"Gûl" means wraith in Black Speech. Tolkien just dropped the second "g." I think at one time the name word might have been spelled "Nazghûl."

Now, what is your opinion, Galin, is that correct that"wraith" in the Black Tongue would be "gûl" not "ûl"?

And anyway there seems to be a similarity with Sindarin - "Gûl" with "Sorcery" (Morgûl, Gûldur) and "ûl" with "Ulairi"...

Perhaps you could explain this?

And regarding the word nazg '(finger-) ring', Tolkien writes (in part): 'This was devised to be a vocable as distinct in style and phonetic content from words of the same meaning in Elvish, or in other real languages that are most familiar: English, Latin, Greek, etc...' (letter 297).
I remember that someone later pointed out that "nazg" seemed similar to Gaelic word "nasc" (ring) and Tolkien admitted that he could have unconsciously borrowed it from Gaelic language that he used to learn but didn't like at all.;)

[Galin]

I'm not an expert :) but JRRT has revealed that the BS word is gûl 'wraith'.

Tolkien seems to variously write (PE17) that the BS word is derived from Sindarin (where the Quenya form is ñúle). In another entry he writes that the word probably derives from Elvish ñgól- (Q. ñóle appears here). And in a third entry he writes again that the BS word probably derives from Sindarin gûl 'black arts, sorcery' (Q. ñúle again).

Derived from Elvish in any case, and leaning towards Grey-elven it seems.

[Valarauko5]

Thank you both for pointing out the problem with Nazgul. I might ammend the statement to be in accordance with a better example of it that Galin posted. The words Ulairi and Nazgul could easily be closely related. Remember that Sindarin was simply the language of the Elves that did not travel to Valinor. Quenya was the language of the Lords of the Noldor. Also, to be fair, no the German "ich" is never pronounced "ish" in German. But English speakers, and in the case of LotR the Men of Westernesse, have a tendency to pronounce this "ish" such as "church". I'm just putting out there that this would be easy to corrupt this way as Morgoth/Sauron had many servants that were men of middle-earth. And simply for the sake of argument, are we sure yet whether the black speech was made by Morgoth or Sauron? there are references for both.

[Gordis]

I'm not an expert :) but JRRT has revealed that the BS word is gûl 'wraith'.

Tolkien seems to variously write (PE17) that the BS word is derived from Sindarin (where the Quenya form is ñúle). In another entry he writes that the word probably derives from Elvish ñgól- (Q. ñóle appears here). And in a third entry he writes again that the BS word probably derives from Sindarin gûl 'black arts, sorcery' (Q. ñúle again).

Derived from Elvish in any case, and leaning towards Grey-elven it seems.

Thank you so much, Galin. :) It is so nice to be able to ask someone who actually reads PE.;)

What about "Ulairi"? Does the "ûl" part come from "gûl" - 'black arts, sorcery' and what does the "airi" part mean in your opinion?

And simply for the sake of argument, are we sure yet whether the black speech was made by Morgoth or Sauron? there are references for both. I think the initial BS was Morgoth's, and perished with Angband. Later, in mid Second Age, Sauron continued to develop the language, introducing new words (Nazgul etc.). Then, after the defeat by the Last Alliance, the BS was all but forgotten by everyone but the nazgul, while the orcs continued to debase what little they remembered, until it became hardly recognizable in various orc dialects. But you better ask Galin.;)

[Galin]

What about "Ulairi"? Does the "ûl" part come from "gûl" - 'black arts, sorcery' and what does the "airi" part mean in your opinion?

If one were to simply 'Quenyarize' a word that began with gûl then initial g- might be dropped, as initial g would not normally occur in Quenya. But that's conjecture of course, with respect to this word -- which has been the subject of debate even among the experts. I'll quote Arden Smith (a member of the Editorial Team currently publishing Tolkien's linguistic papers) here for example, but even he offers nothing definitive.

Stanley Friesen wrote: 'It's simple really, it's 'lair' = "alive", and ulairi means "the unliving ones", or as we would more naturall say in English, The Undead. the word is seen in 'Laire' = "Summer", and is possibly related to 'laik-' = "green".

Arden Smith responded: 'This might be a good theory if you could prove the existence of a word lair 'alive', but I don't think you can. The closest you'll get, I think, is laisi 'youth, vigour, new life' in the Qenya Lexicon, but the word laire from the same period has the meaning 'meadow' (LT1: 267). Furthermore, the "unliving" aren't necessarily the same thing as the "undead"!

I think that the first element could be related either to ÚLUG ['hideous, horrible'] in Etym. (LR: 396), or to a Q negative prefix: UL- of the Qenya Lexicon (LT1: 260) or ú (< UGU) of Etym (LR: 260). Likely candidates for the second element are DAY- 'shadow' (whence Q laira 'shady', etc.; LR: 354) and GÁYAS- 'fear' (whence Q aista 'to dread', N gaer 'dreadful', etc.; LR: 358).

A lot depends on whether the word is to be analyzed as ú+lair+i or úl+air+i. The first option would give a meaning of 'beings of negative shadow' or something similar ('beings of no shadow' would not fit with what we know about the Ringwraiths), whereas the second would give something like 'beings of horrible dread'. A hybrid úl+lair+i might also be possible, giving 'beings of horrible shadow'.

Each of these suggestions has its weaknesses, so I don't propose any one of them as a definitive etymology. I just thought I'd throw them into the mix for everyone's consideration.' [i]Arden Smith 1995

As far as the term 'Black Speech' goes, I specifically think of Sauron's invention in the Second Age.

[Gordis]

Thank you again, Galin.:)
Reading posts like that of Stanley Friesen makes me wish to bow in wonder and awe.:)