Gondolin or Nargothrond?

[arvedui_last_king]

Which would you save? I vote for Nargothrond

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Personally I would save Gondolin. For the reason that my sig states.

[Falagar]

Gondolin, definitely. Always loved that city (the descriptions given in Silm and BoLT may have something to do with it).

[arvedui_last_king]

I admit it, I only said Nargothrond to be different. Who wouldn't save Gondolin?

[BeardofPants]

Yep, sheepie here goin' with the majority - I'd save Gondolin.

[arvedui_last_king]

You can also vote for Doriath.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

gondolin obviously, but turgon would have to remain of course

[durinsbane2244]

Gondolin! Gondolin! Goooooo, Gondolin!

[Arien the Maia]

Nargathrond...I always liked caves...

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Well... Nargothrond just doesn't have it without Finrod around, and Thingol could have saved Doriath, so I have to Gondolin.

[CrazySquirrel]

Burn them all! :evil:

[Earniel]

If you mean Doriath as in Menegroth, then I would save Menegroth. I like Gondolin a lot, but the description of Menegroth always wins me over.

[durinsbane2244]

nah, they would've all died without Gondolin, and the hobbits' swords were made there, and gothmog was killed by gondolinians[?] and i believe that was glorfindal's home...and i just love its name! gondolin...sweeeeeet...

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

gondolin ondolinde - city of the singing stone

[durinsbane2244]

sweet...i don't recall, is that in the Sil, or did you make that up, or what?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

in UT IIRC

[durinsbane2244]

ah...cool than...

[Landroval]

the hobbits' swords were made there
Perhaps you mean Bilbo's sword; the enchanted daggersTom gave the hobbits were made by the Men of Westernesse.

[Earniel]

Off-topic discussion moved to proper forum and thread: Swords in Trolls' Cave (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=9158)

[Rían]

Save Gondolin! But boot out Turgon and put Fingon in his place.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Save Gondolin! But boot out Turgon and put Fingon in his place.
heresy! turgon rules and we all know it

[Gordis]

Why is Fingon better than Turgon? :confused:

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Why is Fingon better than Turgon?

*sighs and prods the now open can of worms into the middle of the debate*

You may want to stand back Gordis, this could get slimy. ;) :p :D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

or violent, very violent (so long as no one mentions finrod or feanor we'll be ok:p)

on a serious note, though, gondolin produced far greater things (eg earendil for a start!) than nargothrond, dontcha think?

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Of course, according to the Orodreth Theory of Parentage, Nargothrond could be said to have produced Gil-Galad.

So... Gil-Galad vs. Earendil this time?

I don't think we've had that debate yet. :evil: :D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

oh my, what have i started? *flees in terror*

although it could be argued that nargothrond produced celebrimbor, and thusly the rings, and so nargothrond can be blamed for sauron's rise to power...

[Maedhros]

From Here and There:
Behold, the armed guardians of the gate pressed back the thronging folk that gathered about the wanderers, and one among them spake saying: 'This is a city of watch and ward, Gondolin on Amon Gwared, where all may be free who are of true heart, but none may be free to enter unknown. Tell me then your names.'But Voronwë named himself come hither by the will of Ulmo as guide to this son of Men; and Tuor said: 'I am Tuor son of Huor son of Galdor of the House of Hador of the sons of the Men of the North who live far hence, and I fare hither by the will of Ulmo of the Outer Oceans.'
Then all who listened grew silent, and his deep and rolling voice held them in amaze, for their own voices were fair as the plash of fountains. Then a saying arose among them: 'Lead him before the king.'
Then did the throng return within the gates and the wanderers with them, and Tuor saw they were of steel and of great height and strength. Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and courts amid gardens of bright flowers mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreen trees were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvellously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the King’s house, and the tower thereof on a pillared arcade was the loftiest in the city, and above it flew the banner of Fingolfin and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night. The birds that dwelt there were of the whiteness of snow and their voices sweeter than a lullaby of music.
On either side of the doors of the palace were the gilded images of two trees, one of gold and the other of silver, and they were in the likeness of the glorious Trees of Valinor that lit those places before Morgoth and Ungoliant withered them: and those trees the Gondolindrim named Glingal and Belthil.
And also: "Yngvi is a LOUSE!"

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

But if it also produced Gil-Galad then it was responsible for both his rise and fall. One must also consider that Finrod faced off against Sauron long before rings came into the picture.

Then again, since the line of Elros produced Ar-Pharazon and Isildur, and Elros was a son of Earnedil and thus a product of Gondolin one could argue that both cities were indirectly responsible for Sauron's rise to power.

(Mwaha! :evil: )

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

yes, but gondolin was way more beautiful (see maedhros's post above) :evil: mwahaha

and anyway, wlros was also elwing's son, so menegroth was the cause of numenor's fall, and sauron re-arising :evil: mwahahahaha

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Ah but we never really get a full description of Nargothrond, Finrod wasn't known for having shabby taste in interior decorating, for all we know it could have been gorgeous.

Though admittedly, Gondolin is hard to beat.

Course, Menegroth was supposed to be pretty shiny lookwise as well.

Really, if we go by looks or blame we could argue in circles for all eternity, which is something best left to the immortal residents of the cities in question. :p

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

like myself, for i am turgon

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

And I'm Glorfindel's ward. ;)

[The last sane person]

....

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

...:)

[The last sane person]

Yeah, I would guess. Hopefully you wont be rained on. Anyways, I vote Nargothrond. I never liked Gondolin. Haven for traitors and the like. Yuck.

[katya]

My first thought was Nargothrond, actually. I was kinda surprised when everyone was going with Gondolin. It was probably because of some sort of bias towards Finrod though.

[Earniel]

Course, Menegroth was supposed to be pretty shiny lookwise as well.

Indeed, read it here:

[...]Beyond the gates wide passages ran down to high halls and chambers far below that were hewn in the living stone, so many and so great that that dwelling was named Menegroth, the Thousand Caves. But the Elves also had part in that labour, and Elves and Dwarves together, each with their own skill, there wrought out of visions of Melian, images of the wonder and beauty of valinor beyond the Sea. The pillars of Menegroth were hewn in the likeness of the beeches of Oromë, stock, bought, and leaf, and they were lit with lanterns of gold. The nightingales sang there as in the gardens of Lórien; and there were fountains of silver, and basins of marble, and floors of many-coloured stones. Carven figures of beasts and birds there ran upon the walls, or climbed upon the pillars, or peered among the branches entwined with many flowers. And as the years passed Melian and her maidens filled the halls with woven hangings wherein could be read the deeds of the Valar, and many things that had befallen in Arda since its beginning, and shadows of things that were yet to be. That was the fairest dwelling of any king that has ever been east of the Sea.

Hard to beat, isn't it? Particulary the part of "Fairest dwelling of any king that has ever been east of the Sea."

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

True, but Tolkien liked the word 'fair' a whole lot, he describes nearly everything having to do with elves as 'fair', 'more fair' or 'fairest' at least once. :D

[Earniel]

Awww, couldn't you at least have left me the illusion? :p

But you're right. It's just like how Tolkien gave characteristics like 'most valiant', 'most noble', 'best', 'greatest' etc... to several different warriors.

[Sister Golden Hair]

In spite of the beauty of all of them, a kingdom is only as good as the king who rules it. While Finrod lived, Nargothrond was instrumental in holding back the enemy. The Guarded Plain protected a large area, and Minas Tirith guarded the Fen of Serech. With the aid of Finrod and permission of Thingol to dwell in his lands, the Haladin defended the Crossings of Teiglin. Nargothrond under Finrod's rule, maintained a policy of secrecy. Not until Orodreth did the people of Nargothrond fight more openly by building the bridge across the Narog where armies issued forth for a few years. The failure to destroy the bridge in time and foolishly meeting the enemy in open battle at Tumhalad caused the destruction and downfall of this kingdom.

Many believe that Turgon's policy of secrecy was so great, that he isolated himself and his people from the rest of the kingdoms, creating his inability to be of any defensive aid. Not until the Nirneath, did Gondolin come out of hiding. The problem with Turgon is that he became prideful of Gondolin and uncaring of the outside world, failing to heed the messangers of Ulmo, resulting in it's downfall.

[arvedui_last_king]

Ah but we never really get a full description of Nargothrond

I agree. Tolkien was probably too engrossed in the tragic story of Turin to fully describe Nargothrond. And remember, the warriors of Nargothrond were the only ever to invade Angband (Flinding/Gwindor in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad)

[Sister Golden Hair]

It is likely that Nargothrond looked a great deal like Menegroth since Thingol told Finrod of the caverns of Narog and Finrod wished to fashion Nargothrond after the mansions of Menegroth.

[CrazySquirrel]

Living in caves seems more Sindar-like, doesn't it? Thingol, Thranduil...

Nor typical for the Noldor.

[Rían]

Why is Fingon better than Turgon? :confused:

I think Turgon hid from his troubles, and Fingon went and met them head on. One of my favorite parts in all of Tolkien is where Fingon faces almost certain death but goes off, alone, to rescue his good friend Maedhros anyway, because it's the right thing to do. And I just lost a lot of respect for Turgon after reading the Fall of Gondolin. He should have led his people, but didn't.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Living in caves seems more Sindar-like, doesn't it? Thingol, Thranduil...

Nor typical for the Noldor.True. Tolkien mentions that I believe in the appendices somewhere. Saying something to the effect of: it was not the nature of the Elves nor by choice for them to live underground, but due to the enemy,especially in the First Age. They preferred the the wide open fields, trees and grass, and most of all; the stars.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think Turgon hid from his troubles, and Fingon went and met them head on. One of my favorite parts in all of Tolkien is where Fingon faces almost certain death but goes off, alone, to rescue his good friend Maedhros anyway, because it's the right thing to do. And I just lost a lot of respect for Turgon after reading the Fall of Gondolin. He should have led his people, but didn't.
That's a bit unfair. I haven't read the Fall of Gondolin so what you say may be true from there but remember the Nirnaeth. He led his people away from the battle field where others may not have done. This undoubtedly saved his people.

[CrazySquirrel]

I agree with TD. Turgon had redeeming qualities. He welcomed Tuor and gave him the hand of his only daughter without much fuss, not like the mean Thingol!

[Sister Golden Hair]

I have to agree with Rian to a point. As I said in an earlier post, although Turgon was not a bad person or king, he did what some would consider turning his back on the Noldor and the troubles of Beleriand. The Nirneath is the only instance of where Gondolin became involved in the Wars of Beleriand. At the end, he became arrogant and prideful and forsook the words of Ulmo. But I have to agree with you CS that he wasn't that meany Thingol. :)

[Rían]

Oh, Turgon definitely had redeeming qualities - I'm not saying he didn't. I'm just saying that I think Fingon was a better guy.

TD - you just GOTTA read the Fall of Gondolin! One of my favorite bits of Tolkien. Then you might see what I mean about Turgon. I just think he could have gone out leading his people, instead of the way he did ... (I'm not saying how he did, so you'll be tempted to read it and find out! :D )

I'm not particularly fond of Thingol - is anyone, for that matter? (except Melian ... :D )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Turgon wasn't the only one of the Noldor to have turned his back on what the Valar said to be fair. The reason the Noldor were in ME was because Fëanor hadn't listened to the Valar and nor did the Noldor.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I think the trouble with Thingol is that the story leaves him in la-la-land with Melian and then we don't really get back to him till things start going wrong for his character.

He ruled succesfully in Middle Earth for thousands of years that we don't hear anything about. So he probably had quite a lot of redeeming qualities, they just weren't developed or told about within the story.

[Rían]

I"m sure you're right, Maggie, but it's just fun to bash him! :D ;)

[Maedhros]

From the Lays of Beleriand:Lay of Leithian Canto VI
To northward, where that stream yet young
more slender flowed, below the tongue
of foam-splashed land that Ginglith pens
when her brief golden torrent ends
and joins the Narog, there they wade.
Now swiftest journey thence they made
to Nargothrond’s sheer terraces
and dim gigantic palaces.
They came beneath a sickle moon
to doors there darkly hung and hewn
with posts and lintels of ponderous stone
and timbers huge. Now open thrown
were gaping gates, and in they strode
where Felagund on throne abode.


Also from the Lays of Beleriand
In the verses describing Nargothrond the Lay of Leithian looks back to and echoes The Children of Húrin; compare

Doors there darkly dim gigantic
were hewn in the hillside; huge their timbers
and their posts and lintels of ponderous stone (p. 68, 1828 - 30)

with

Nargothrond’s sheer terraces
and dim gigantic palaces (1774-5)

and

doors there darkly hung and hewn
with posts and lintels of ponderous stone
and timbers huge. (1777-9)

I have mentioned earlier (pp. 104, 108) the drawing and watercolour of the entrance to Nargothrond. The drawing is inscribed ‘Lyme 1928’ (a summer holiday at Lyme Regis in Dorset) and the watercolour was very likely done at the same time: thus a few months after the writing of Canto VI of the Lay of Leithian. In both are seen the bare Hills of the Hunters beyond (with bare tops bitten bleak and raw, 1735), and in the watercolour Nargothrond’s sheer terraces (1774); but neither picture suggests that the entrance was hid and veiled (1704), by trees o’ershadowed dim (1707) - a feature of the description that goes back to the Tale of Turámbar (‘the doors of the caves... were cunningly concealed by trees’, II. 81).


IMHO, it is silly to compare the beauty of Nargothrond and Gondolin. If you look at the evolution of ME, you will notice that the first thing written about it is the Fall of Gondolin, when Gondolin is already a place of magnificent beauty, whereas the the forerunner of Nargothrond is a mere cave. Why is it that whereas Gondolin, is always remarkably described since the earliest of time, Nargothrond is not, and it has only a very vague description in the Lays of Beleriand? Isn't it strange that while JRRT delighted many of us with his great description of places in ME, he did not bother with Nargothrond. Wow.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros

Why is it that whereas Gondolin, is always remarkably described since the earliest of time, Nargothrond is not, and it has only a very vague description in the Lays of Beleriand? Isn't it strange that while JRRT delighted many of us with his great description of places in ME, he did not bother with Nargothrond. Wow.Perhaps the reason for that is because Tolkien already stated that Nargothrond was fashioned after the mansions of Menegroth. The fact that Nargothrond was wrought from the caverns of Narog does not mean that it was not magnificent and beautiful. As I said earlier; in spite of the beauty of any of these kingdoms, they are only as good as the kings that rule them. So, even though Tolkien described Gondolin in more depth, its king was not depicted as well as Nargothrond's. :p :)

[Forfirith]

I would save Gondolin because it recalls Tirion in Valinor whereas Nargothrond could be rebuilt by Dwarves and it makes me think of Thranduil's caves in Mirkwood.

[Elemmírë]

I'm with RÃ*an here. Save Gondolin, but replace Turgon with anyone (preferably Fingon). :p

I would have once been sympathetic to Nargothrond, but 1) I don't like caves, and 2) those idiots really deserved everything that came to them.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What about Finrod? ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

and 2) those idiots really deserved everything that came to them.Yeah, what about Finrod? :eek: :confused: :mad: :(

You are in so much trouble miss. :evil: ;)

[Elemmírë]

Yeah, what about Finrod? :eek: :confused: :mad: :(

You are in so much trouble miss. :evil: ;)

My apologies, SGH. :p

"Idiots" refers to everyone in Nargothrond except Finrod, Edrahil, and the others that followed. ;)

Turning on your own king like that... :rolleyes:

[Blackheart]

Gondolin... because the easiest way to do it is to bump off a snot nosed son of a "dark" elf...


Though I'd really rather be saving Angband...

[jammi567]

gondolin because that's where the savior of both elves and men came from, :D but also nargothrond because a) the coolest characters (finrod and turin) come from/go to there and b) the caves are so beautiful that tolkin himself couldn't find words to describe the place :D

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

Nargothrond mostly definately.

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

Actually now that I think about it, it would be a hard decision to make. I love Nargothrond, but I think a lot of Gondolin also. Turgon is like my 3rd favorite elf next to Gil-Galad and Finrod Felagund.

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

heresy! turgon rules and we all know it

Hey! Though Fingon was valiant, Turgon was a great and wonderful king. At least he made some attempt to get the curse lifted though he didn't succeed.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I think Turgon hid from his troubles, and Fingon went and met them head on. One of my favorite parts in all of Tolkien is where Fingon faces almost certain death but goes off, alone, to rescue his good friend Maedhros anyway, because it's the right thing to do. And I just lost a lot of respect for Turgon after reading the Fall of Gondolin. He should have led his people, but didn't.

:D

Perfect post.

Fingon never showed a moral failing. Turgon succumbed to pride.

Fingon and Finrod were as close to perfect as can be, unless I'm forgetting something.

[Finarfin-1]

Nargothrond,
Both Nargothrond and Gondolin succumbed for the exact same reasons, but Nargothrond has the excuse that Finrod was long gone and that Orodreth, as hard as he tried simply wasn't possessed of the kind of strength of will some of the other great Noldor demonstrated. First he loses control of Tol-Sirion, then he loses control of Nargothrond to Celegorm and Curufin's plotting, and finally he loses control to Turin's charisma and ability to sway the people to abandon stealth in favor of overt military action.

It can also be argued that Nargothrond didn't "earn" its fall in the way that Gondolin did. When Turgon sat and listened to Throndor's reports that everywhere the Noldor were hard-pressed and dying he chose to protect the secrecy of Gondolin over going to their aid. It's fitting that in the end his refusal to believe in Hurin and his isolationism allowed Maeglin's treachery to bring down his kingdom. Plus, Nargothrond didn't have the benefit of Ulmo sending Tuor to serve as a direct warning that doom approached. After his previous failures it's entirely possible that Orodreth might have learned enough from his mistakes that such a warning might not have fallen on deaf ears. If the bridge over the Narog had been demolished Glaurung would have been out of luck. The power of Ulmo was in the waters and the servants of Morgoth shunned the water during the 1st Age. It's not like Glaurung could have climbed down into the gorge, forded the river and climbed the sheer cliffs to invade that way.

Gondolin had multiple routes to destruction dogging it, Nargothrond had just the one. If you lay aside the birth of Earendil and simply consider which kingdom was of greater worth to the Noldor then Nargothrond wins hands down (In my opinion). There's even a direct quote that goes something like "Thus while Finrod was the youngest of the Lords of the Noldor, his realm was by far the largest and greatest." When you then take into account the strategic value of the Teiglin fords I feel it puts Nargothrond over the top.

Off-subject for a minute. From my lurking I think I've detected a sentiment that Finrod-fandom is somehow distasteful. That's too bad, as he is by far my favorite of the Noldor. I think it's incredible that his deeds were such that after his death he was released from the Curse and resurrected in Valinor.

[Varnafindë]

I have a soft spot for Gondolin - perhaps simply because I've read more about it than about Nargothrond, and feel that I know it better.
Fanfiction-wise, my character and online persona has her roots in Gondolin.


Off-subject for a minute. From my lurking I think I've detected a sentiment that Finrod-fandom is somehow distasteful. That's too bad, as he is by far my favorite of the Noldor. I think it's incredible that his deeds were such that after his death he was released from the Curse and resurrected in Valinor.

I'm a big Finrod-fan - is there a thread about him already, or ought we to start a new one?
Mods, what say ye?

[Earniel]

Off-subject for a minute. From my lurking I think I've detected a sentiment that Finrod-fandom is somehow distasteful. That's too bad, as he is by far my favorite of the Noldor. I think it's incredible that his deeds were such that after his death he was released from the Curse and resurrected in Valinor.
Distasteful? That would be a first to my knowledge. We all got our favourites, of course, but Finrod generally ranks high on the list. I remember quite a few Finrod-fangirls here.

I'm a big Finrod-fan - is there a thread about him already, or ought we to start a new one? Mods, what say ye?
You can do your own search, ya know. ;) Anyway, I'm sure there are several Finrod-threads, but I don't see any recent ones about Finrod specifically, so feel free to start a new one. Or you can use one of the threads about Elven kings in general, if you prefer. :)

[Amael]

Gondolin by far, at least for my liking. Mountains surrounding, and so on. I wouldn't have made the mistake of allowing a mortal to come in. There would be 1 law: if some outsider comes in, never do they go back outside of Gondolin, ever! And I'd create a special place in the catacombs of Gondolin for anyone suspected of being possible traitors. I'd have been more paranoid, if I were the Queen of Gondolin. I'd know what the King is up to all of the time, and who he calls "friends". Then I'd add like 10 more gates and clone Glorfindel.:D

[Willow Oran]

*hides Glorfindel from Amael's cloning machine*

After much consideration I think I would choose not to save any of them as doing so would directly contradict the tragic themes of the story of Middle-Earth and as none of the people who would be saved would have been permanantly dead anyway and the cities would then survive within their perfect, elvish memories. :p

[Rían]

:D

Perfect post. Why, thank you! :)

[Varnafindë]

the cities would then survive within their perfect, elvish memories. :p

Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grevious end...
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

[Beor]

I would have to save Nargothrond.

I like Gondolin better, but the Fall of Gondolin (in the Book of Lost Tales II) is amazing, and sometimes, a good last stand is warranted. Those dang balrogs! And Ecthilion and the fountain thing, with the balrog (Gothmog?). Quite an amazing fight. Oh, and not to forget about Glorfindel on the mountain. I tell ya, its too bad it had to fall, but hey, it sounds like it was one hell of a fight.

Nargothrond fell like a chump.

[Morwen]

Gondolin! I always thought it was so cool and mysterious :D

[The Mormegil]

Turgon, Turgon!! I still hear Hurin Screaming his name. Gondolin live on