The drowning of Numenor

[CrazySquirrel]

Split of from the Why have Merry and Pippin in the Fellowship? (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=10560)-thread. This thread is to discuss the drowning of Numenor and its aspects.

Hrm, I wonder what brought that idea to you - the valar clearly recognize the children of Eru as being the culmination of Creation.
Eru was not that nice to his children. Don't forget what he did with Numenor - the whole island with all its population, not just the fleet! :mad:

For one, it was him who propose the would be suicide attack on Mordor, in which he would be a chief bait.
And with him was the new-found King of Gondor and about 6-7 thousand mortal soldiers. Gandalf included all of them in this "bait". And they were mortal, expendable guys, not like our undestructible Maia.:( If "killed", he would have returned to Valinor, perhaps to be reincarnated again....

[Landroval]

Don't forget what he did with Numenor - the whole island with all its population, not just the fleet!
A land where humans sacrificed, tortured humans in the temple of Melkor, where they slayed each other with swords in madness and cursed themselves in agony; they hunted the Men of Middle-Earth and enslaved them. They didn't repent even when the lightning strikes of the eagles hit them, nor when the earthquake was given a final warning. More or less, they were beyond redemption, and their acts too cruel. Given the strength of the future kingdom of Gondor, it is likely that should Numenor have survive, it would have continued to oppress Middle Earth in the same hellish manner.
And with him was the new-found King of Gondor and about 6-7 thousand mortal soldiers.
There would have been "no new age" should this diversion never occured - the hobbits couldnt have reached Mount Doom, and even if they werent caught, the armies of Sauron would have soon overwhelmed all Middle Earth.

[CrazySquirrel]

A land where humans sacrificed, tortured humans in the temple of Melkor, where they slayed each other with swords in madness and cursed themselves in agony; they hunted the Men of Middle-Earth and enslaved them. They didn't repent even when the lightning strikes of the eagles hit them, nor when the earthquake was given a final warning. More or less, they were beyond redemption, and their acts too cruel. Given the strength of the future kingdom of Gondor, it is likely that should Numenor have survive, it would have continued to oppress Middle Earth in the same hellish manner..
Yes they did all this but following whose advice? A certain Zigur-Sauron, one of the Ainu, most persuasive creature, especially with his Ruling Ring. :evil:
Eru has drowned not only those who committed crimes, but also innocent children, and fair maidens, and old people, and all the books and objects of art etc... Yes, he destroyed Sauron, that's what he wanted when toppling the island. It was simply hunting a fly with a hammer!

There would have been "no new age" should this diversion never occured - the hobbits couldnt have reached Mount Doom, and even if they werent caught, the armies of Sauron would have soon overwhelmed all Middle Earth. I never said the diversion was a bad idea.Yes, it was necessary. But Gandalf in this was much less self-sacrificing than sacrificing the nameless soldiers that marched with him. And many of them died at the Morannon.


Now back to the topic of the thread. Why Merry and Pippin?

I agree with Olmer. Clearly the extra hobbits were needed to carry the Ring, if the Ringbearer was killed. And it is not so much Gandalf's and Elrond's decision in Rivendell that matters, it is the original company that set off from the Shire.

Gandalf APPOINTED Sam to go with Frodo (as a "punishment" for eavesdropping). And Sam invited Merry and Pippin (also very probably following Old Gandy's advice). Sam admits to Frodo at Crickhollow:
‘Yes, sir!’ said Sam. ‘Begging your pardon, sir! But I meant no wrong to you, Mr. Frodo, nor to Mr. Gandalf for that matter. He has some sense, mind you; and when you said go alone, he said no! take someone as you can trust.’

So he wanted SEVERAL hobbits to come from the Shire to Rivendell with the Ring. They were poor protection against nazgul - had Gandalf known about nazgul looking for Frodo, he would have sent at least several Rangers with them, or would have come himself. No, he wanted them as spare ringbearers for later, when the road becomes dangerous. And where can one find a hobbit in Rivendell? :rolleyes:

[Landroval]

A certain Zigur-Sauron, one of the Ainu, most persuasive creature, especially with his Ruling Ring.
He didnt have his ring in Numenor, or at least he didnt use it; in Silmarillion, in The downfall of Numenor, it is stated that after the drowning, "he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur". Moreover, even before his coming, the numenoreans were walking towards their world domination. One could say that his coming to Numenor only hastened things, for good and for bad.

Concerning all the inhabitants of the sunken island, you have yet to address the fact that they would have returned to their policy of enslavement after the attack on Valinor, given the environment in which they grew; furthermore, they were subject to punishment by crossing the ban of the valar, a ban directly derrived from Eru's will that the destiny of his children regarding their life length shouldnt be change.
Yes, he destroyed Sauron, that's what he wanted when toppling the island. It was simply hunting a fly with a hammer!
Is there anything to back that idea?;)
And they were mortal, expendable guys, not like our undestructible Maia.
Indestructible? In what sense?
But Gandalf in this was much less self-sacrificing than sacrificing the nameless soldiers that marched with him.
How was his sacrifice any less?
Gandalf APPOINTED Sam to go with Frodo (as a "punishment" for eavesdropping). And Sam invited Merry and Pippin (also very probably following Old Gandy's advice). Sam admits to Frodo at Crickhollow:
He appointed him to go only to Rivendell. Later on, the hobbits are addmitted in the fellowship against _"great wisdom"_, as Gandalf tells Elrond.

[Gordis]

He didnt have his ring in Numenor, or at least he didnt use it; in Silmarillion, in The downfall of Numenor, it is stated that after the drowning, "he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur". Moreover, even before his coming, the numenoreans were walking towards their world domination. One could say that his coming to Numenor only hastened things, for good and for bad.

I believe Sauron had his ring with him in Numenor . Please, have a look at this excellent FAQ threadFAQ of the Rings (http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-Numenor)
Here is the part about Numenor

Where was the One Ring while Sauron was in Númenor?
On his finger. "He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans." [L #211 (279)]
Tolkien's very clear statement agrees with the logic of Sauron's character. Sauron had two choices: take the ring with him to Númenor, or leave it in Middle-earth. But nowhere there would be safe, from his point of view: while he spent decades in Númenor, anyone might have found the Ring and claimed it. Sauron would never risk that.

Some people are misled by Tolkien's statement that Sauron "took up again" the Ring after making himself a new body [Silm: Rings (292)]. All that means is that he first completed the new body, then turned again to his plans for world domination.

See also: "Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring" back to Middle-earth after the drowning of Númenor." [L #211 (280)]

[Landroval]

I believe Sauron had his ring with him in Numenor . Please, have a look at this excellent FAQ threadFAQ of the Rings
Here is the part about Numenor
Well, I guess that settles the ring issue :D. An excellent FAQ indeed.

[CrazySquirrel]

Concerning all the inhabitants of the sunken island, you have yet to address the fact that they would have returned to their policy of enslavement after the attack on Valinor, given the environment in which they grew; furthermore, they were subject to punishment by crossing the ban of the valar, a ban directly derrived from Eru's will that the destiny of his children regarding their life length shouldnt be change.
My point was that Ar-Pharazon and his fleet broke the ban of the Valar and yes, THEY deserved punishment. So why not just sink the fleet? Don't tell me Ulmo couldn't do that!

The innocent civilians in Numenor broke no ban, but they died a horrible death nonetheless. :( Eru decided they were expendable.

I doubt, that after the destruction of the fleet, the remaining women and children would have been much of a threat to the Middle Earth. And don't forget that Elendil, Isildur and Anarion also grew in THAT environment, so why spare them?


Is there anything to back that idea?;). Eru's desire to punish Sauron is the only REASONABLE explanation for his horrible cruelty. Otherwise, it is even worse, IMHO, just the God's tantrum.


Indestructible? In what sense??
You kill him and after a month he is there again, better than before.:) If killed again, Olorin the Maia will be walking all young and carefree in the fair Valinor. That is why I think his sacrifice was less than any mortal's.

He appointed him to go only to Rivendell. Later on, the hobbits are addmitted in the fellowship against _"great wisdom"_, as Gandalf tells Elrond.That was a statement made for the hobbit ears. He couldn't really tell them why they were needed, could he?

[Forkbeard]

My point was that Ar-Pharazon and his fleet broke the ban of the Valar and yes, THEY deserved punishment. So why not just sink the fleet? Don't tell me Ulmo couldn't do that!

The innocent civilians in Numenor broke no ban, but they died a horrible death nonetheless. :( Eru decided they were expendable.

a) Were there innocent civilians in Numenor? The Akallabeth indicates that all but the faithful took part in Sauron's religion and grumbled against the ban, that makes them guilty. The faithful were with Elendil. b) compare to the flood story in the Bible, Tolkien even says in one of the letters that Elendil is a "Noah figure."

I doubt, that after the destruction of the fleet, the remaining women and children would have been much of a threat to the Middle Earth. And don't forget that Elendil, Isildur and Anarion also grew in THAT environment, so why spare them?
Read the Akallabeth


Eru's desire to punish Sauron is the only REASONABLE explanation for his horrible cruelty. Otherwise, it is even worse, IMHO, just the God's tantrum.
According to Tolkien in the letters, it is meant to be humanity's "second fall" or at least akin to it. There is no indication that it was done specifically to "get Sauron" or that Sauron's presence on Numenor had anything to do with the act.


You kill him and after a month he is there again, better than before.:) If killed again, Olorin the Maia will be walking all young and carefree in the fair Valinor. That is why I think his sacrifice was less than any mortal's.
True, I'd agree with this, if you can measure self-sacrifice, then a human,hobbit, or elf's self-sacrifice is more "dire" in that sense than a Maia. But can we truly measure self-sacrifice?

That was a statement made for the hobbit ears. He couldn't really tell them why they were needed, could he?

Well, unless you're of the Olmer school and it appears you are, he did tell them why they were needed.

[Landroval]

There is little to add to Forkbeard's excellent post; as far as Gandalf's reincarnation possiblity is concerned (which is a far cry from indestructibility and we have no idea whether it is a repeatable event either), Tolkien, in his letter #153, doesn't exclude the possibility of reincarnation for Men too.

[The Gaffer]

An interesting thread. Just got an observation:

Death was the "Gift of Iluvatar" to Men. It was Melkor who made it fearful. So, the more Men went over to the "dark side" as it were, the more they feared it. However, Death itself was a release from the world, so no tremendous punishment in the eyes of Iluvatar.

Just wait till Mandos got hold of 'em.

[Gordis]

A very clever observation, The Gaffer. I tended to agree with CS, but now I think that you may be right: perhaps Eru didn't consider a violent death as much of a punishment, simply a transition into the other life outside the Circles of the world.

It matches the fact that Ar-Pharazon's fea has been entrapped: he will lay buried in Valinor till the Last Battle. He and his soldiers were punished more than the others.

[CrazySquirrel]

Some read the Akkalabeth and see a just punishment of a loving father to his stray children. Some see a crime against humanity.

It is simply the way you look on things personally. I am of the latter, Forkbeard and Landroval seem to be of the former.

I can only say that Tolkien himself and Tolkien's own characters were not so cold-hearted:

Then suddenly fire burst from the Meneltarma, and there came a mighty wind and a tumult of the earth, and the sky reeled, and the hills slid, and Númenor went down into the sea, with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its halls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its lore: they vanished for ever. And last of all the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-MÃ*riel the Queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls. Too late she strove to ascend the steep ways of the Meneltarma to the holy place; for the waters overtook her, and her cry was lost in the roaring of the wind.

‘It reminds me of Númenor,’ said Faramir, and wondered to hear himself speak.
‘Of Númenor?’ said Éowyn.
‘Yes,’ said Faramir, ‘of the land of Westernesse that foundered and of the great dark wave climbing over the green lands and above the hills, and coming on, darkness unescapable. I often dream of it.’

Dosn't look like a simple chastisement of a loving father, if the descendants of those who survived have nightmares about it three thousand years after the event?

Moreover, consider that Akkalabeth was meant to be written by Elendil himself - one of the few who were "rightful", the one who was spared by the Valar, because his father Amandil betrayed the King and the cause of Numenoreans and sneaked to Valinor to ask "mercy upon Men and their deliverance from Sauron the Deceiver"- but it was only mercy upon his family and his followers that he got..

But whether or no it were that Amandil came indeed to Valinor and Manwë hearkened to his prayer, by grace of the Valar Elendil and his sons and their people were spared from the ruin of that day.

The story written by the one who ran from the sinking Numenor like a rat from a sinking ship, is still filled with grief and horror. I imagine what a story written by a Black Numenorean would be like!

I tended to agree with CS, but now I think that you may be right: perhaps Eru didn't consider a violent death as much of a punishment, simply a transition into the other life outside the Circles of the world.
Eru never understood Men. His Gift... thanks for such a Gift. :mad: It was not a good gift if almost everyone deemed his life span too short, and didn't want to die. And if Eru though a violent death a trivial thing, than his understanding was poor indeed.

And what right did Eru have to kill any of his children? :(
Has a father the right to kill his children? No, it is a crime, and the culprit will end his days in jail. And rightly, even though for believers death is only a transition into a better world.

[The Gaffer]

There is a specific reference in the Silmarillion to how Men did not fear death until Melkor made it fearful.

So, maybe it was a great gift "which even the Powers shall envy ere the end" (can't remember where that quote comes from.

It's not Eru's fault that we're a bunch of ungrateful bar stewards.

[CrazySquirrel]

There is a specific reference in the Silmarillion to how Men did not fear death until Melkor made it fearful.

So, maybe it was a great gift "which even the Powers shall envy ere the end" (can't remember where that quote comes from.

It's not Eru's fault that we're a bunch of ungrateful bar stewards.
:)
We are what we are. :) So what? Destroy the mankind?

If Morgoth has 'worked" on us, that is not our fault. There is always an Ainu at the bottom of all our troubles. ;) :evil:

Reread Arwen's last words to Aragorn. She had not been influenced by Morgoth when she said:
"I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Númenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."

It is interesting "as the Eldar say". Perhaps it was only the Eldar POV and those who hearkened to them? Perhaps Eru himself would have laughed at that definition?

[Landroval]

A precedent for Eru's intervention in his Children's life is when he shortened their life length the moment they began worshiping Melkor; however, for reasons presented, there was no desire of repentance from the Numenoreans.
Dosn't look like a simple chastisement of a loving father, if the descendants of those who survived have nightmares about it three thousand years after the event?
We must also aknowledge factors outside the story when judging it; as Tolkien himself states, he has an "Atlantis complex", which compelled him to a certain extent to write about... sinking a great island ;). To this is also attributed Faramir's dream:
I say this about the 'heart', for I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. Possibly inherited, though my parents died too young for me to know such things about them, and too young to transfer such things by words. Inherited from me (I suppose) by one only of my children, though I did not know that about my son until recently, and he did not know it about me. I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequeathed it to Faramir.)

[Rían]

It is interesting "as the Eldar say". Perhaps it was only the Eldar POV and those who hearkened to them? Perhaps Eru himself would have laughed at that definition?But the Eldar had been in communication with the Valar, who were in communication with Eru.

I can't remember a lot about the different places where the idea of a gift is talked about - certainly in the Athrabeth, but I can't remember who "recorded" that conversation ... IIRC, Andreth (a human woman) relayed it as a legend of the wise among her people.

[Landroval]

The perception of death as a gift is presented more in Silmarillion ("death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy" - chapter one); in the Athrabeth, Andreth presents the interesting idea that death was the result of Melkor's marring - not their initial 'design').

[Olmer]

Given the strength of the future kingdom of Gondor, it is likely that should Numenor have survive, it would it would have continued to oppress Middle Earth in the same hellish manner.
The Akallabeth indicates that all but the faithful took part in Sauron's religion and grumbled against the ban.The faithful were with ElendilO, yeah.. Even just born babies were taking part in Sauron’s religion by filling their diapers with evil smell. :evil: Guilty!!!
Bad Numenor went down.
What was left out? “Faithful� Numenoreans!! Who continued “to oppress Middle Earth in the same hellish manner�, but now they were not restricted by any boundaries and their playfield widened out far beyond horizon.
Did you see “improvement� in the Grand Design? :rolleyes:
So what was the point to kill so called “evil men, evil women, evil children, evil cats and evil chickens�?
I'm absolutely agree with Crazy Squirrel statement that such acts of Eru couldn't be called anything less as a "crime against humanity", unless we will agree on conception that the Higher beings are devoid of any feelings and centiments, and all their action are beyond "good" or "evil", because by their nature they did not see any difference between it, and therefore can't be judged by people's standarts.
... in the Athrabeth, Andreth presents the interesting idea that death was the result of Melkor's marring - not their initial 'design'). I missed that .Can you give a quote?

[Landroval]

Who continued “to oppress Middle Earth in the same hellish manner�, but now they were not restricted by any boundaries and their playfield widened out far beyond horizon
"The world was diminished" according to Akallabeth - where from do you get the greater playfield :)? And how was the oppression of the numenoreans continued?
I missed that .Can you give a quote?
Sure:
Yet among my people, from Wise unto Wise out of the darkness, comes the voice saying that Men are not now as they were, nor as their true nature was in their beginning. And clearer still is this said by the Wise of the People of Marach, who have preserved in memory a name for Him that ye call Eru, though in my folk He was almost forgotten. So I learn from Adanel. They say plainly that Men are not by nature short-lived, but have become so through the malice of the Lord of the Darkness whom they do not name.
…
The Wise among Men say: "We were not made for death, nor born ever to die. Death was imposed upon us."

[CrazySquirrel]

A very interesting quote, thanks, Landroval!

You see, Eru never spoke to Men directly, did he? So all they have are old tales, either coming from the Eldar, or invented by Men themselves.

Men never wanted Death and blamed it on Melkor.
Elves and Ainur, deathless themselves, imposed that tale of a "Gift" on Men, but it never really worked.

What Eru himself planned and designed is just unknown, except in rendition or interpretation.

And Eru hardly had any emotions, baring childish anger, when His plans went astray.

(I think Tolkien was fascinated by the difference in Mannish and Elvish traditions, he has even rewritten Akkalabeth several times to match Mennish and Elvish-Faithful Numenorean POV's)

[Landroval]

You see, Eru never spoke to Men directly, did he?
Part of this was once my signature :):
The Voice had spoken to us, and we had listened. The Voice said:
- Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you.
We understood the Voice in our hearts, though we had no words yet. Then the desire for words awoke in us, and we began to make them. But we were few, and the world was wide and strange. Though we greatly desired to understand, learning was difficult, and the making of words was slow. In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only:
- First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.
And Eru hardly had any emotions, baring childish anger, when His plans went astray.
First of all, the valar requested His intervention; and in the greater scheme of things:
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
...
The Drama depends on His design and His will for its beginning and continuance, in every detail and moment
What Eru himself planned and designed is just unknown, except in rendition or interpretation
Indeed, He never left any "stone tablets" around; His only mark, visible in all Men, is that "the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein". Children ever longing for their Creator :).

[Olmer]

Thanks for quote, Landroval.
IMHO it's a wishfull thinking, and an earnest desire to find a scape goat. :)
And how was the oppression of the numenoreans continued?
"...Though war never ceased on their borders, for more than thousand years the Dunedain of the South grew in wealth and power by land and sea"...;
...(Gondor) "won much territory eastwards", drowing the "wild men" out of their homeland;
..."Gondor reached the summit of its power. The realm then extended north to Celebrant and the south eaves of Mirkwood;west to the Greyflood;east to the inland Sea of Rhun; south to the river harnen, and hence along the coast to the peninsula and haven of Umbar"As Gondor's expansion grew, so grew its appetite, the plundering of seized coutries grew up and therefore the wealth an power of Gondor reached such proportions, when «…precious stones are pebbles in Gondor for children to play with“(RotK.Appendix A) and "...the kings of the Harad did homage to Gondor, and their sons lived as hostages in the court its Kings..." , in making sure in this way, that any attempts of uncooperation from the defeated Rulers will be timely terminated.

Does not it sounds somehow familiar? ;)
They were getting the spoils and slaves in a manner of the best Numenorian's traditions :evil: .

[Valandil]

But not Arnor... THEY were the Good Guys! :) :p

[Olmer]

But not Arnor... THEY were the Good Guys! :) :p
Honestly, Valandil, how good they had been if they were at each other throat? :(

[Valandil]

Oh them? That was just the rebellious ones in Cardolan and Rhudaur. ;)

[Landroval]

Does not it sounds somehow familiar?
They were getting the spoils and slaves in a manner of the best Numenorian's traditions .
I don't see any mention of _plunder_ and slaves ('high level' hostages and tributes are a different matter) - nor of torturing and sacrificing people to Melkor.

[Olmer]

Oh them? That was just the rebellious ones in Cardolan and Rhudaur. ;)
Their rebellion cost the lost of the whole strong kingdom.
Note, it happened at the time, when, as an opposite , Gondor was growing in power.
I read M. Martinez essay, which you provided to me some time ago. :)
It's not like I agree with all his assumptions, but he has a strong point: by whatever reasons the kingdom fell apart, the poor leadership and over- ambitiousness of the princes played not the last role in this misfortune.

[Gordis]

I don't see any mention of _plunder_ and slaves ('high level' hostages and tributes are a different matter) - nor of torturing and sacrificing people to Melkor.
The Numenoreans were sacrificing people to Melkor for only a short period - while Sauron was at the island. Not before.

[Landroval]

The Numenoreans were sacrificing people to Melkor for only a short period - while Sauron was at the island. Not before.
Yet the fact that they were doing this for a period of maximum 57 years doesn't mean it was a passing trend - only Eru's will could (and indeed) stop it, nothing else. True, oppression didn't start with the numenoreans, nor did it end with them, and their cruel practices might have a parallel in the far East, but claiming that late Numenor and Gondor in _any_ period are comparable in terms of oppression is a far stretch of imagination.

[Olmer]

...but claiming that late Numenor and Gondor in _any_ period are comparable in terms of oppression is a far stretch of imagination.
"...for a time its splendor grew, until it recalled the wealth and majesty of Numenor ere it fell." (The Silmarillion) And why their wealth reached such magnitude? Because they were taking lands of their neighbors in the way, just like their Numenor's ancestors did:"...and they came no longer as bringers of gifts, not even as rulers, but as fierece men of war... and they hunted the Men of Middle-earth and took their goods and enslaved them..."to do a dirty jobs serving majesic people of Numenor, to buld their fortresses and tombs.
Do you really think that fortresses and tombs of Gondor was bult by hands of the king and his soldiers, or by hands of citizens of Gondor, children of which were throwing a gemstones - which, probably, with great difficuly were acquired by the rules of the oppressed lands to pay a tribute to Gondor? Do you really think that with the wealth of such immensity the people of Gondor were serving themselves or any willing and unwilling guests of the kingdom?
Of course, not! They had slavery and they collected VERY HEAVY contributions from all lands under their dominion, all in the undying traditions of the late Numenor. ;) :rolleyes:
And in the terms of expansion of the kingdom they even outdid their forefathers. :cool:

[Landroval]

In the appendixes, it is mentioned that the Wainriders took slaves and also the Dunlendings - but never the descendants of Numenor.

It is farely safe to assume that they made by themselves the Argonaths (in which Aragorn takes great pride) and Orthanc (which is a unique building, unrivalled by others in ME) - I doubt that they had problems building whatever great tombs or fortresses. So far, I see no ground to your idea.

[Gordis]

In the appendixes, it is mentioned that the Wainriders took slaves and also the Dunlendings - but never the descendants of Numenor.

It is farely safe to assume that they made by themselves the Argonaths (in which Aragorn takes great pride) and Orthanc (which is a unique building, unrivalled by others in ME) - I doubt that they had problems building whatever great tombs or fortresses. So far, I see no ground to your idea.
I would say, that taking slaves from the enemy territories during wars, and "enslaving" the whole subject population of the lands they ruled are slightly different things.

I think there is little doubt, that Numenoreans -those who came on the ships of Isildur and Anarion + those Faithful who already were in Pelargir - were but a small part of Gondor population. There had to be much greater native population, "enslaved" or just opressed by Numenoreans.
I doubt they had been happy, like those men of Dunharrow, or like dwellers of Enedwaith, to have to bow to the Numenoreans and work for them.
Their hands built Isengard and the walls of Minas Tirith, Osgiliath and M. Ithil.
Of course, the architects, supervisors etc. were Numenoreans.

[Landroval]

I think there is little doubt, that Numenoreans -those who came on the ships of Isildur and Anarion + those Faithful who already were in Pelargir - were but a small part of Gondor population. There had to be much greater native population, "enslaved" or just opressed by Numenoreans.
I disagree - they came as friends among friends:
Isildur and Anarion were borne away southwards, and at the last they brought their ships up the Great River Anduin, that flows out of Rhovanion into the western sea in the Bay of Belfalas; and they established a realm in those lands that were after called Gondor, whereas the Northern Kingdom was named Arnor. Long before in the days of their power the mariners of Numenor had established a haven and strong places about the mouths of Anduin, in despite of Sauron in the Black Land that lay nigh upon the east. In the later days to this haven came only the Faithful of Numenor, and many therefore of the folk of the coastlands in that region were in whole or in part akin to the Elf-friends and the people of Elendil, and they welcomed his sons.
Their hands built Isengard and the walls of Minas Tirith, Osgiliath and M. Ithil.Of course, the architects, supervisors etc. were Numenoreans.
Why do you assume that? Even in the Silmarillion, there is no such refference:
These were the chief dwellings of the Numenoreans in Gondor, but other works marvellous and strong they built in the land in the days of their power, at the Argonath, and at Aglarond, and at Erech; and in the circle of Angrenost, which Men called Isengard, they made the Pinnacle of Orthanc of unbreakable stone.
Many treasures and great heirlooms of virtue and wonder the Exiles had brought from Numenor
Even if the Numenoreans couldn't have done it themselves, they still had the means to employ others, not enslave them.

[Gordis]

Landroval, in all fairness, what does your quote say? In the later days to this haven came only the Faithful of Numenor, and many therefore of the folk of the coastlands in that region were in whole or in part akin to the Elf-friends and the people of Elendil, and they welcomed his sons.
The sons of Elendil were welcomed by those who were Numenoreans and moreover, their kin! It doesn't tell anything of the feelings of the native population.

What do we know of the native population? Let us take the People of the Mountains (within Gondor borders): For at Erech there stands yet a black stone that was brought, it was said, from Númenor by Isildur; and it was set upon a hill, and upon it the King of the Mountains swore allegiance to him in the beginning of the realm of Gondor. But when Sauron returned and grew in might again, Isildur summoned the Men of the Mountains to fulfil their oath, and they would not: for they had worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years. So, they allied themselves with Isildur at the beginning, but it seems their hearts were still with their former Lord, Sauron.Or, perhaps, by the War of the Last Alliance they came to understand that Gondor rule brought them nothing but misery?

"The Dunlendings were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains, and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue. Only in Dunland did Men of this race hold to their old speech and manners: a secret folk, un-friendly to the Dúnedain, hating the Rohirrim."

Now, the neighbouring countries. Why do you think the Easterlings and the Haradrim and the Khandians have allied themselves with Mordor? Not an attractive realm, Mordor, clearly diabolical... So, why ? Because they preferred it to Gondor, their ancient enemy and oppressor. It seems Harad had not been happy under the Gondor rule. Neither was Umbar.

As for reading that "the Numenoreans built the statues at Argonath, Minas Tirith, Isengard etc.", you can also read that "Pharaohs built the Pyramids". That doesn't mean that the poor Pharaohs had to toil day and night hauling stones, does it? The subject native population in Gondor may have been treated better than the Egyptian slaves, but still...All those cyclopean constructions mean only misery for common people. And Tolkien himself compared the Numenorean kingdoms with the Ancient Egypt.

[Landroval]

The sons of Elendil were welcomed by those who were Numenoreans and moreover, their kin! It doesn't tell anything of the feelings of the native population.
That is one way of reading it, not necessarily the right one; the way I see it, there was no resentment among the coastland dwellers, quite the contrary; I am still looking for a posivite proof that the descendants of numenor enslaved people - I certainly doubt they enslaved those of their own blood (since they ruled "with wisdom" - well, for the most part... Why did other people choose to continue to follow the way of Melkor? I don't know - it may be because they never saw the 'light' (in letter #131, Tolkien notes that "But Sauron dominates all the multiplying hordes of Men that have had no contact with the Elves and so indirectly with the true and Unfallen Valar and gods"); furthermore, in the Silmarillion, it is noted
Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.
Moreover:
The servants of Sauron were routed and dispersed, yet they were not wholly destroyed; and though many Men turned now from evil and became subject to the heirs of Elendil, yet many more remembered Sauron in their hearts and hated the kingdoms of the West
The good guys sided with the numenoreans :D
And finnally:
Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless
All too true...

[Olmer]

...and though many Men turned now from evil and became subject to the heirs of Elendil, yet many more remembered Sauron in their hearts and hated the kingdoms of the West
Landroval, did you ever asked yourself, why many more? which translates that it were much less of these Men, who acknowledged
the "good" kingdom?
How good the "good guys" if the majority of population wants to have NOTHING with them, even HATING them?

[Landroval]

I think I gave enough proof that it was the evil inside Men's heart that turned them to evil's side; orcs are in almost unredeemable allegiance to evil, and Tolkien notes that even some humans of the primary reality resemble them - the same case can be made of those who Men who turned to Sauron and against the numenoreans.

[CrazySquirrel]

I believe Olmer and Gordis have the stronger case. :p

[Landroval]

I believe Olmer and Gordis have the stronger case. :p
Wishful thinking ;). I am still waiting for _one_ positive proof concerning the enslavings done by the Gondor. Or that there was any other reason than the corruption of Men which turned/kept them to Sauron's side and against the numenoreans.

[CrazySquirrel]

Wishful thinking ;). I am still waiting for _one_ positive proof concerning the enslavings done by the Gondor. Or that there was any other reason than the corruption of Men which turned/kept them to Sauron's side and against the numenoreans.
Mark that not all the peoples who hated the Dunedain were in league with Sauron. Take the Dunlandings. Umbar was always opposed to Gondor, but not always in league with Mordor. The Hillmen hated the Dunedain of Arnor before they turned to Angmar. And so on.

Why, even the Breelanders were not very fond of Rangers! :D

Isn't it more logical to suppose that the Dunedain were hated because they were hateful? :eek: :p

[Landroval]

Umbar was always opposed to Gondor, but not always in league with Mordor.
I twice disagree:
'Tis said that there were dealings of old between Gondor and the kingdoms of the Harad in the Far South; though there was never friendship. In those days our bounds were away south beyond the mouths of Anduin, and Umbar, the nearest of their realms, acknowledged our sway. But that is long since. 'Tis many lives of Men since any passed to or fro between us. Now of late we have learned that the Enemy has been among them, and they are gone over to Him, or back to Him-they were ever ready to His will-as have so many also in the East
not to mention that Earnil I once made Umbar a fortress of the Numenoreans; moreover:
The great cape and landlocked firth of Umbar had been Numenorean land since days of old; but it was a stronghold of the King's Men, who were afterwards called the Black Numenoreans, corrupted by Sauron, and who hated above all the followers of Elendil

[CrazySquirrel]

And think how arnorean and gondorean rule looked from the POV of the native ME population. The natives were always considered inferiour,not good enough. Marriage with them, even their royals, was considered a disgrace for the Numenoreans. The natives were never eligible for any important functions. And so on. Were the natives happy? I doubt it, especially those who were not related with the three houses of the Edain.

Edit: re your last post, which I have saved from the post-eating beastie :)

I said Umbar was NOT ALWAYS in league with Sauron.

At the time of Black Numenoreans, around the War of the Last Alliance they were (your second quote)
But at the time of Castamir and his children and up until 2941 - the return of Sauron to Mordor- they weren't!
Then, when Sauron returned to Mordor, he sent emissaries there (your first quote)

[Landroval]

Were the natives happy?
I never argued that the they were - only that the harsh regime of the late Numenor was never paralleled after the sinking of the island. There were misgivings - but that is hardly a base for comparison; even the valar can fault in Arda marred.
I said Umbar was NOT ALWAYS in league with Sauron.
Though ever ready to his will says a lot of their corruption - a recurrent theme for most, if not all, of these enemies.