Why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell?

[CrazySquirrel]

Why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell?

I don't think that was discussed before... But really: Why?
The reasons Gandalf and Elrond gave seem strange to me - they waited for the return of the scouts they sent.
But the time they lost in Rivendell (from the end of October till the end of December- TWO MONTHS!!) allowed their enemies to consolidate. The nazgul had time to return to Mordor. Orcs came to Moria from the South, possibly from Mordor. Saruman had time to pick the fellowship's trail. And the winter had come, covering the Redhorn pass with snow.

Wasn't it a bad mistake to stay that long?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well as stated to make sure that all the Nazgûl had been partially destroyed and forced back to Mordor, and that would have taken a long time for the sons of Elrond went to Rhûn IIRC.

[CrazySquirrel]

Well as stated to make sure that all the Nazgûl had been partially destroyed and forced back to Mordor, and that would have taken a long time for the sons of Elrond went to Rhûn IIRC.

I don't think they went to Rhun, only to Lorien.

And the nazgul horses (8 of the 9 ;) ) were found dead not that far downstream. That meant that the nazgul had to walk to Mordor. And the fellowship, instead of setting out immediately, gave them the necessary time to get to Mordor with the news and to sent orcs to Moria and to Path Galen! Not to mention that SOMEONE flying obverhead - wasn't it a nazgul on a Fell beast? spotted them before the Redhorn pass and perhaps "organized' the storm!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes, I've just checked, they did not go to Rhûn. Yet some did go to Mirkwood, which would have taken some time.

We can't start until we have found out about the Riders
So not all was certain.

[CrazySquirrel]

Oh, yes,, and by the end of December it was certain: the nazgul were safely in Mordor and horsed (and even "fellbeasted" :) ).

[Jon S.]

Because the food, drink, and entertainment was top-notch?

Actually, all of the above is true but the actual answer has already been quoted and can be summed up as, "Haste makes waste."

[Olmer]

CrazySquirrel I don't think they went to Rhun, only to Lorien.Seems to me that Elrond was reluctant to make any moves without consulting with his mother-in -law. ;) And this was the major reason for delay.

An intention to make sure that the Fellowship won't have an obstructions on their way to Mordor is commendable, but downright stupid. As you already mentioned, it did no prevent them from getting spotted and delayed. Sending scouts in all direction and then pretending to wait till all of them will return with gathered information (especially I like an idea of sending scouts far north to Ettenmore, while the company's plan was to go south-south-east :rolleyes: ) is nothing more than a cover up for one-and-only reason:Galadriel's formal consent.
"The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode in a strange country"... (FotR,"The Ring goes South")
And only when they finally came back with Galadriel's approbation, the quest had been set forth.

[durinsbane2244]

The nazgul had time to return to Mordor.

well, the nazgul gettin back to mordor gets them out of the way of the fellowship for a bit, eh?

[The Wizard from Milan]

I agree that the Fellowship stayed too long in Rivendell, but that does not seem peculiar to Rivendell; they also spent one month in Lorien.
(And let's not foget Frodo reclutance in leaving Hobbinton)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Without some prophecy or precognition of when was the right time to get the ring to MT Doom, of which we have no indicia, the two month delay in Rivendell is inexplicable from a strategic or tactical standpoint. They should have set out beh9nd the scouts a soon as frodo was travelable. The scout if they run into any hazzard, should fall back on their out from Rivendell and would thus meet and warn the fellowship. Olmer's theory above is the only one that adds even small partial sense to the delay. he has now got me 10% suspecious of an Elvish plot.

[CrazySquirrel]

I agree with Olmer. The quest had to be OK'd by Galadriel before they set out.

It looks like the Ring came as a complete surprise to Erlond. Perhaps he first heard of the Ring being found from Gandalf, some days before Frodo was brought to Rivendell. The "old manipulator' never told about it to his colleagues (the other bearers of the Three) before! I imagine what Elrond said to Gandalf when he told him the news! :mad: :D

And then counsil went after counsil, and "the boys", Elladan and Elrohir, were sent to their granny to ask her opinion - perhaps even some days before Frodo appeared in Rivendell. And Galadriel said "bring it to me!' and started musing what would she do if she had the One... That would explain the second (one month) delay, in Lorien. She just couldn't bring herself to let the Ring out of her claws.

And don't you think they might have been looking for Gollum? Gandalf knew they needed him to complete the quest.

[Serenoli]

do you know, it actually seems quite plausible... I mean, the twin sons had "an errand that they would speak of to no one but their father", and that sounds like an elaborate family conspiracy, doesn't it?

btw, an odd thing I just remembered about the council... how come no one offered to be the Ring-bearer, and there was such a frightful long silence before Frodo offered? Surely the Ring would be exercising a lot of charm around itself... how come no one asked to carry the Ring? it just puzzles me...

[Forkbeard]

TO answer the thread title first, I think there are several reasons, some of which have been mentioned or hinted at:

a) the most important is knowledge. where is the enemy, not just the Nazgul, but Sauron himself, where are his forces, spies etc, but also Saruman: new orc activity in the various passes of the mountains since they can not go by way of the Gap. In my view, it is a good thing for Sauron to know that the ring is in Rivendell--that is the first step in leading him to think and believe that Elrond is gathering a force to go to Gondor or Lorien and use the Ring against him. I think this is vital.

b) the Ring-Bearer needs to be healthy. Attending a conference in the place where one is recuperating is one thing, walking from Rivendell to Mordor alone would be taxing enough, much less the other dangers one might face along the road. So waiting for his full recovery, or as full a recovery as possible is also important.

c) Informing Galadriel and getting her take: I don't think we need travel the "conspiracy" road. It is obvious that the Fellowship at some point (esp. since they can not go by way of the Gap) will need to use Lorien as a stopping spot and well may need more help than anticipated. On that side of the mountains, that's who it will be. So telling Galadriel of the counsel, the outcome, and the plan and getting the take of one who fought Morgoth in Valinor and Middle Earth for 3 ages just might be a good thing.

d) planning. Once the scouts are back, planning which route(s) to take, gathering supplies, planning for eventualities etc: none of which can truly be done until the scouts return.

e) weather. At least in the mountains from which I hail, Dec-Jan snow is a rare thing. Snow comes in the fall: late Oct (Sept on the highest peaks), and Nov., but generally is done by early Dec when it turns bitterly cold for Dec and Jan, snow returning again in Feb and March. Better to be trying to cross the mountains when cold, but not storming, than in the middle of a storm. Besides, the indication is that Caradhras would have tried to stop them no matter the season. Even among the dwarves, C was known as being cruel.

I don't find the spying particularly problematic for the late departure date. Neither Sauron nor Saruman is particularly stupid and used many sources of news, including palantiri. If they had left the day of the Counsel it would have been more difficult to spot spies than in winter when yes, the fellowship is exposed, but so are their trackers. So it wouldn't really matter when they left, the danger of being spied upon would be the same.

As for giving Sauron a chance for sending Orcs to Parth Galen and Moria, I find this argument unsupported in the texts of Lord of the Rings. As for Moria, there were orcs already there: the last battle of Balin and co. didn't take place the week before the Fellowship got there, but some YEARS before. I don't recall anything that says that Sauron sent more to Moria between Book I and Book II.

As for Parth Galen, same thing: Sauron already had garrisons up and down the East side of the river (or would if he were smart) between Lorien (on which he kept constant watch) and Mordor: He had reason to watch Lorien, Rohan, and Saruman and guard against any activity there. That the fellowship was seen floating down the river would have occurred the second they left Lorien regardless of time of year.

So that's my .50...sorry for being long winded.

[Forkbeard]

CrazySquirrel Seems to me that Elrond was reluctant to make any moves without consulting with his mother-in -law. ;) And this was the major reason for delay.

An intention to make sure that the Fellowship won't have an obstructions on their way to Mordor is commendable, but downright stupid. As you already mentioned, it did no prevent them from getting spotted and delayed. Sending scouts in all direction and then pretending to wait till all of them will return with gathered information (especially I like an idea of sending scouts far north to Ettenmore, while the company's plan was to go south-south-east :rolleyes: ) is nothing more than a cover up for one-and-only reason:Galadriel's formal consent.
"The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode in a strange country"... (FotR,"The Ring goes South")
And only when they finally came back with Galadriel's approbation, the quest had been set forth.

Do recall though that the Ettenmoors once formed a part of the kingdom of Angmar, did the WK (I call him Marvin) return north rather than go to Mordor after being unhorsed, and there have a troop or more at his beck and call ready to come down on Rivendell? How do you know unless you go look?

As for waiting for the scouts, rather than send the company out and let the scouts meet them: that's not a good idea. Let's say the company sets out and crosses the same pass that Bilbo and company did, and they find out the pass is held against them, then they have to go back and find another pass, and in the meantime the scouts who went that direction miss them....then they have no news, no one knows where they went, and there is no one looking for them to help along the way. Poor plan.

[CrazySquirrel]

Sauron DID send more orcs to Moria:
According to Haldir, a GREAT troop of orcs came to Moria: We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many days ago.
It was many DAYS ago, not many YEARS ago.

Balin went to Moria THIRTY (not "some") years ago, in 2989, and perished in 2994.

[Forkbeard]

It is rather rude to call other people's arguments "silly" and sneer at them when you haven't even bothered to go check the exact quotes! :(

Yes, Sauron DID send more "nassssty orcses" to Moria:
According to Haldir, a GREAT troop of orcs came to Moria:
It was many DAYS ago, not many YEARS ago.
And for your instruction, Balin went to Moria THIRTY (not "some") years ago, in 2989, and perished in 2994.

I didn't sneer. I will if you really wish me too.

According to Haldir, a great troop of orcs came to Moria. Did Haldir state they came from Sauron or from Dol Guldur or from the force that one of the Nazgul had opposite Rohan? No? Then claiming that Sauron did in fact send them is imposing your own opinion on the text isn't it? Does Haldir tell us that they came from Saruman? No? Thought not. Does Haldir tell us where the orcs have originated from? No? You mean they could have come from elsewhere than Sauron? HMMM, the mind boggles at this gap. (that was a tiny sneer, yes). I will further point out that EVEN IF the great troop of orcs was from Sauron, it doesn't follow that a) Sauron had not been sending such troops there for some time in preparation for his assaults on Lorien and b) that it was in any way related to the Fellowship--do remember that it was suggested that the delay of the company allowed such reinforcements to happen. There is no indication in what Tolkien actually wrote that the two events are in any way connected. And as I pointed out, there were already orcs and a balrog there, I doubt that this new troop changed the outcome of the Fellowship's journey through Moria in any way. Furthermore, since the events of the LoTR are taking place in 3018-19, would you mind terribly explaining to me how events taking place in 2989-2994 doesn't constitute "some years ago?" Certainly more precise and all that, but unless you're trying to say that all the orcs left after they killed Balin and company and just came back days before the company arrived and had barely set up camp, it would seem to me to indicate that the balrog and orcs were already there and the delay in departure of the Fellowship from Rivendell would not have changed their encounter with a balrog and orcs in Moria in any way had they departed sooner.

I'm sorry you took offense, offense was not meant, but rather a modicum of silliness.

FB

[Forkbeard]

I agree with Olmer. The quest had to be OK'd by Galadriel before they set out.

It looks like the Ring came as a complete surprise to Erlond. Perhaps he first heard of the Ring being found from Gandalf, some days before Frodo was brought to Rivendell. The "old manipulator' never told about it to his colleagues (the other bearers of the Three) before! I imagine what Elrond said to Gandalf when he told him the news! :mad: :D

I doubt it. If Aragorn knew surely Elrond knew too. Where do you get the idea that Elrond was surprised by the Ring?

And then counsil went after counsil, and "the boys", Elladan and Elrohir, were sent to their granny to ask her opinion - perhaps even some days before Frodo appeared in Rivendell.

Considering they show up after dinner the night before, they would have to have gone quite a while before.

And Galadriel said "bring it to me!' and started musing what would she do if she had the One...

Then why not take a more direct route, surely to get it to Galadriel one needn't the Fellowship or even Frodo, and all the waiting.

That would explain the second (one month) delay, in Lorien. She just couldn't bring herself to let the Ring out of her claws.

I don't know, after a month of traveling on foot, cold food, escaping near death experiences, and losing a loved one on whom one depended, I think I wouldn't mind a month to mourn and then regain my strength for the next push myself. Perhaps you're made of sterner stuff.

FB

[Olmer]

Wow, Forkbeard, you really invested in some time out of your hectic schedule. :)
the most important is knowledge. where is the enemy, not just the Nazgul, but Sauron himselfI think they alredy knew or should know. It would be an unforgivable negligence to have your remote isolated kingdom without any intelligence information about any possible treats from potential enemies.
...that is the first step in leading him(Sauron) to think and believe that Elrond is gathering a force to go to Gondor or Lorien and use the Ring against him..I think this is vital.
Where did you get this information? Quote, please! :)
I think it is stupid to attract enemy’s forces without having any ability to withstand them.
...the Ring-Bearer needs to be healthyAs we know he never fully recovered even years after the quest. One month did not do any difference to Frodo. Why they did not appoint one of the elves, if they wanted a healthy ring -bearer? They don’t have men’s maladies, even their wounds heals faster than on anybody else. Glorfindel would be a good candidate for the trip to Mordor. :evil:
So telling Galadriel of the counsel, the outcome, and the plan and getting the take of one who fought Morgoth in Valinor and Middle Earth for 3 ages just might be a good thing.Sure thing it is good to get a counsel from the person, who from the beginning had a quite different plan about the Ring, and who for so long time yearned it :“For many long years I had pondered what I might do should the Great Ring come into my hands.” (FOTR).On course they have to let her know that an object of her dreams soon will be delivered at her doorsteps. :evil:
So, since she planned to employ Gandalf in realization of her “design” from the beginning, I‘ll take that she requested Gandalf’s inclusion in Frodo’s company , as an overseer . Remember, Gandalf was not really eager to go on this quest, and warned Frodo, exalted at perspective to have Gandalf with him, “do not count on anything , yet”. But since "in this matter Elrond have too much to say", and he probably said: “Hey, old pal, you stirred up all this “stew” in the first place, so you have to deal with it: deliver it to The Golden Woods”, so Gandalf takes his place in the Fellowship.
Should also be noted that his plans did not go farther than Lorien." We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods, and so to the Great River, and then …" (LOTR. Book II, chapt. III)... he is wisely getting silent about what will happen when, after Lorien, the group will split up, leaving Frodo with the Ring on his own. :rolleyes:
I don't recall anything that says that Sauron sent more to Moria between Book I and Book IIOn this point I agree.They were not Sauron’s orcs, but Saruman’s, he was sending an emissary to Moria, probably hoping to persuade them to join Isengard’s army. :cool:

...recall though that the Ettenmoors once formed a part of the kingdom of Angmar…did the WK return north rather than go to Mordor after being unhorsedIt had been a part …2045 years ago. Since that it became desolated, even enemies not dwell there. "No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legend tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end." What to look for? Even by the Witch -King?
Then why not take a more direct route, surely to get it to Galadriel one needn't the Fellowship or even Frodo, and all the waiting.They TOOK the direct route. Remember, Gandalf planned to go straight through Moria in the first hand? All alternative routes had been suggested by others.
I think I wouldn't mind a month to mourn and then regain my strength for the next push myself. O, yeah? Even knowing that your delay may cause the destruction of your country?
I understand that the hobbits could be so heedless, but such warriors as Boromir and Aragorn definitely understood the graveness of situation, and also Galadriel and Celeborn.

[mithrand1r]

As we know he never fully recovered even years after the quest. One month did not do any difference to Frodo. Why they did not appoint one of the elves, if they wanted a healthy ring -bearer? They don’t have men’s maladies, even their wounds heals faster than on anybody else. Glorfindel would be a good candidate for the trip to Mordor. :evil:

IIRC, Glorfindel (or other elves of his stature) would be very visible to Sauron.
(similar to sending up a flare and saying "Here we are.")
I had the impression from the text (I think it was reference in Many Meetings by Gandalf talking to Frodo and later on in the Council of Elrond) that these types of elves had some type of inner glow/power that can be seen by those who can see.

Since the idea was to have the FOTR travel "under the radar" one would try to avoid bringing unnecessary attention if possible.

(Of course this questions why Gandalf and Legolas were included. I think it was probably determined that Gandalf's benefits would outway any negatives.

Perhaps he had a way of masking himself from observation by others, unless he used his special abilities. {as indicated when he lit the fire in the pass of Caradhras}

Legolas, although an elf, I think was a different type of elf than Glorfindel. Perhaps his type of elf did not attract the same type of attention from Sauron as Glorfindel.)

I am not sure about the 1 month stay in Lothlorien, other than to say that they lost track of time. (This is probably due to the effects of Lothlorien and more directly the Ring of Galadriel.)

The FOTR should have (in hindshight) traveled as soon as they were resupplied and able. (I would think about a weeks time {7 days} at most.)

p700

[Jon S.]

CrazySquirrel Seems to me that Elrond was reluctant to make any moves without consulting with his mother-in -law. ;) And this was the major reason for delay.

An intention to make sure that the Fellowship won't have an obstructions on their way to Mordor is commendable, but downright stupid. As you already mentioned, it did no prevent them from getting spotted and delayed. Sending scouts in all direction and then pretending to wait till all of them will return with gathered information (especially I like an idea of sending scouts far north to Ettenmore, while the company's plan was to go south-south-east :rolleyes: ) is nothing more than a cover up for one-and-only reason:Galadriel's formal consent.
"The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode in a strange country"... (FotR,"The Ring goes South")
And only when they finally came back with Galadriel's approbation, the quest had been set forth.

This is a brilliant insight, one I can't believe after all these years I never previously considered at all, thanks for sharing it.

Perhaps among the reasons Elrond felt the need to consult with Galadrial was his understanding that if the quest was successful, the destruction of the One Ring would mean the destruction also of Lothlorien when, as a result, the Three Rings lost their powers to preserve against decay. That being the case, he may have felt obligated, even if as a formality, to obtain Galadrial's consent to the mission.

[CrazySquirrel]

According to Haldir, a great troop of orcs came to Moria. Did Haldir state they came from Sauron or from Dol Guldur or from the force that one of the Nazgul had opposite Rohan? No? Then claiming that Sauron did in fact send them is imposing your own opinion on the text isn't it? Does Haldir tell us that they came from Saruman? No? Thought not. Does Haldir tell us where the orcs have originated from? No? You mean they could have come from elsewhere than Sauron? HMMM, the mind boggles at this gap. (that was a tiny sneer, yes). I will further point out that EVEN IF the great troop of orcs was from Sauron, it doesn't follow that a) Sauron had not been sending such troops there for some time in preparation for his assaults on Lorien and b) that it was in any way related to the Fellowship--do remember that it was suggested that the delay of the company allowed such reinforcements to happen. There is no indication in what Tolkien actually wrote that the two events are in any way connected. And as I pointed out, there were already orcs and a balrog there, I doubt that this new troop changed the outcome of the Fellowship's journey through Moria in any way.

Don't let your mind boggle, you can find the connections if you look for them in the books.

Firstly Haldir said the orcs came from the South: that means, either from Mordor, or Isengard, or even from Dol Guldur, if they crossed the River at the field of Celebrant. OK? Or you think they were from Minas Tirith? :D

Secondly, they were either Sauron's or Saruman's. Gandalf described the ones near the Chamber of Mazarbul as "black uruks of Mordor"
'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. `And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor. For the moment they are hanging back, but there is something else there. A great cave-troll, I think, or more than one. There is no hope of escape that way.'

Aragorn didn't gainsay it. He saw the Isengardians for the first time later, at Path Galen. The difference was discussed at this point; it was considerable. And Gandalf spent more than a month on the roof of Orthank: shouldn't he know how the Izengardians look? :rolleyes:

So my conclusion: they were from Mordor.

Olmer, if you state they were from Isengard, could you provide a quote, please?


Now did the new troop change the balance of forces in Moria? And were they sent there in relation with the Fellowship?

UT: The hunt for the ring
What then happened to Gollum cannot of course be known for certain. He was peculiarly fitted to survive in such straits, though at cost of great misery; but he was in great peril of discovery by the servants of Sauron that lurked in Moria, (11) especially since such bare necessity of food as he must have he could only get by thieving dangerously. No doubt he had intended to use Moria simply as a secret passage westward,

(11) These were in fact not very numerous, it would seem; but sufficient to keep any intruders out, if not better armed or prepared than Balin's company, and not in great numbers. [Author's note.]

The passage above tells us of the situation in Moria in summer 3018. "NOT very numerous". It doesn't sound like a "great troop of orcs", does it?

So between the summer and the winter 3018, the Moria garrison was noticeably reinforced. It might be either connected with Gollum, or with the news of the Ring Quest. Considering the fact that the attacking orc in the Mazarbul fight went directly and unerringly for Frodo, I believe the latter.

And then: Elladan and Elrohir were in Lorien, in late October-November 3018. Why didn't they bring back the news of the great troop of orcs coming to Moria? Because they didn't. Gandalf has no idea of the situation in Moria:
If there are Orcs there, it may prove ill for us, that is true. But most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of Five Armies. The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar; but there is a hope that Moria is still free.-LOTR
So, I believe, either Galadriel decided to keep the news to herself ;) - did she, Olmer?, or the orc host came AFTER Elladan and Elrohir left Moria.- in late November. Then the chance that its arrival is connected with the nazgul report about the Fellowship increases.

Do recall though that the Ettenmoors once formed a part of the kingdom of Angmar, did the WK (I call him Marvin) return north rather than go to Mordor after being unhorsed, and there have a troop or more at his beck and call ready to come down on Rivendell? How do you know unless you go look?
As Olmer has quite correctly pointed out, the lands of the Ettenmoors were almost empty by TA 3018.

Apart from that, recall that the Witch-King had previously laid siege to Rivendell (1409) and, although he had all the army of Angmar with him, still he failed to take it. You think by 3018 he had developed a severe nazgul amnesia? :rolleyes: Could he hope to assail Rivendell with a troop of vagabonds collected in Ettenmoors?,

Here is my "modicum of silliness" :evil: :D

[CrazySquirrel]

Sorry, this post is meant to overcome the new page bug :)

[Artanis]

My answer to the question - why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell: Frodo and the other Hobbits needed to regain their strength. Not only their physical strength, but something much more important. They needed to build up their inner strength to withstand the power of the Ring.

You could ask the same question about Lórien. Why did they stay so long there? I think the answer is the same - Rivendell and Lórien had qualities that provided a healing and strenghtening of the spirit of anyone residing there.

[The Gaffer]

I had the impression from the text (I think it was reference in Many Meetings by Gandalf talking to Frodo and later on in the Council of Elrond) that these types of elves had some type of inner glow/power that can be seen by those who can see.
* SNIP*
Legolas, although an elf, I think was a different type of elf than Glorfindel. Perhaps his type of elf did not attract the same type of attention from Sauron as Glorfindel.

Yes, elves who have been to the undying lands exist in "both worlds at once" and would probably stick out like a sore thumb. Legolas, of course, was of the Moriquendi, and didn't.

It is also, IMO, figuratively important that the burden for the destruction of the Ring is taken on by non-Calaquendi. For once the Ring was destroyed, their power diminished, and the Dominion of Men was to begin.

Which brings me to this Galadriel conspiracy theory. If she really wanted the Ring, here's a minor flaw in the theory: she didn't take it when it was offered!

But one can propose several good reasons why the Ring should pass through Lorien en route to the Fire:
Help from the greatest Power outside Barad-dur
To reveal the power of Narya (? is that the right one) to Frodo so that he, and we, understand
To give Galadriel the chance to repent and return into the West.

What I do wonder is why Elrond didn't show Frodo his Ring? (fnarr fnarr)

[Forkbeard]

Wow, Forkbeard, you really invested in some time out of your hectic schedule. :)
I think they alredy knew or should know. It would be an unforgivable negligence to have your remote isolated kingdom without any intelligence information about any possible treats from potential enemies.

Hey Olmer, yes, just avoiding work I should be doing! To have the kind of detailed knowledge you assume here though would necessitate the upkeep of "stringer" encampments/fortresses that had a steady stream of riders riding from Tharbad to Rivendell and back, back and forth through the passes of the Misty Mtns. Stategically perhaps this is what should have been done, but it wasn't, perhaps because they hadn't the personnel, perhaps because the watch had slackened, perhaps because they rested securely in Rivendell and depended overmuch on the Rangers to bring them news. Now, I'm not saying they were totally ignorant either. Just that some extensive intelligence was needed to discover what else might be waiting for them before setting out.


Where did you get this information? Quote, please! :)
I think it is stupid to attract enemy’s forces without having any ability to withstand them.

I'll answer the last comment first. However stupid it might be this is exactly what Aragorn, Gandalf, Imrahil, and Eomer did in Book VI. As for the "information" itself, I deduce it from what is said by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond: "But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it....If true, then Sauron will assume that Elrond, Gandalf, or someone in Rivendell intends to use the Ring.

As we know he never fully recovered even years after the quest. One month did not do any difference to Frodo.

I quite disagree. Take anyone who is wounded. We don't slap a band aid on the stump of a removed limb and say "well, you'll never really grow a new one, buck, so good luck" and send them off that minute. Rather, they spend some days (and depending on how life threatening the wound, months) in healing and then in physical and psychological therapy. So, sure, Frodo never did heal completely from that wound, but to say that a couple extra months recuperation among the elves and among friends physically gaining strength and psychologically preparing for the journey did him no good at all I think is to miss the healing that Frodo underwent in those chapters.

Why they did not appoint one of the elves, if they wanted a healthy ring -bearer?

They didn't appoint a ring-bearer. Frodo volunteered. And he after all did have rightful possession of it.


They don’t have men’s maladies, even their wounds heals faster than on anybody else. Glorfindel would be a good candidate for the trip to Mordor.

Glorfindel would have had a hard time not being seen by the WK or disguising himself as an orc. Glorfindel would be a bad candidate for the trip to Mordor.

Sure thing it is good to get a counsel from the person, who from the beginning had a quite different plan about the Ring, and who for so long time yearned it :“For many long years I had pondered what I might do should the Great Ring come into my hands.” (FOTR).On course they have to let her know that an object of her dreams soon will be delivered at her doorsteps.

Now Olmer you know better. "Many long years" does not equal "from the beginning", "pondered what I might do" does not mean "have a plan for" nor mean it to be an object of her dreams anymore than those hypothetical "if you were on a desert island and could take 3 books (3 albums, 1 companion etc) what would they be?

[Spock]

why did they stay so long?

..."such was the virtue of the land of Rivendell that soon all fear and anxiety was lifted from their minds. The future, good or ill, was not forgotten, but ceased to have any power over the present. ......taking pleasure with every meal and in every word and song.....so the days slipped away.......

All that has been said about what others were doing is fine but I think the above captures the reason for The Fellowship staying so long.

[Jon S.]

Because the food, drink, and entertainment was top-notch?

That's kinda the same thing I meant! :D

[Curubethion]

And of course it was because of a plot convenience for Tolkien: so that they could depart on Christmas! Which I believe was very intentional, considering his symbolism.

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

My answer to the question - why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell: Frodo and the other Hobbits needed to regain their strength. Not only their physical strength, but something much more important. They needed to build up their inner strength to withstand the power of the Ring.
And also: hobbits "can't live long on the heights." The poor hobbits live in a land where excursions out of the Shire are rare. None of the four have ever on any danger-filled adventure and didn't know what to expect. They were exhausted! ;) :)

[Forkbeard]

Sure thing it is good to get a counsel from the person, who from the beginning had a quite different plan about the Ring, and who for so long time yearned it :“For many long years I had pondered what I might do should the Great Ring come into my hands.” (FOTR).On course they have to let her know that an object of her dreams soon will be delivered at her doorsteps. :evil:

Hey Olmer, I'll start where I ended last time. As I began to point out, I think you've overread Galadriel's statement and this has led you astray. One shouldn't however miss the undertones to the s tatement either though: it IS A TEMPTATION, and even Galadriel is tempted by it. But that's not the reason to seek her advice.

So, since she planned to employ Gandalf in realization of her “design” from the beginning, I‘ll take that she requested Gandalf’s inclusion in Frodo’s company , as an overseer . Remember, Gandalf was not really eager to go on this quest, and warned Frodo, exalted at perspective to have Gandalf with him, “do not count on anything , yet”. But since "in this matter Elrond have too much to say", and he probably said: “Hey, old pal, you stirred up all this “stew” in the first place, so you have to deal with it: deliver it to The Golden Woods”, so Gandalf takes his place in the Fellowship.
1) I very much doubt Galadriel would be able to "use" or "employ" Gandalf in anything he did not wish to be included in
2) I'm sure she suggested it, such an important task should have a Maia attached to it if possible, and since all the other wizards had proven incapable of carrying out their mission, Gandalf's inclusion was logical
3) Gandalf's statement about not counting him in just yet says nothing about his eagerness. In fact you will recall that just before that bit you quote, Gandalf explicitly says, "Someone said that intelligence was needed. I think that I shall go with you." That seems to me to explicitly state his INTENT. And this was before the scouts were even sent out much less had been to Lorien and Galadriel.

Should also be noted that his plans did not go farther than Lorien." We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods, and so to the Great River, and then …" (LOTR. Book II, chapt. III)... he is wisely getting silent about what will happen when, after Lorien, the group will split up, leaving Frodo with the Ring on his own. :rolleyes:
Perhaps. But it is odd don't you think that Gandalf, even as a wizard much less in his natural state, should SERVE Galadriel rather than the other way round? Why would ol' Gandalf want to give the ring to a mere elf rather than take it himself?


It had been a part …2045 years ago. Since that it became desolated, even enemies not dwell there. "No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legend tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end." What to look for? Even by the Witch -King?

It says no one DWELT there, it says nothing about a possible force being hidden there or the W-K unhorsed heading that direction for reasons unknown (something important he forgot, to meet an troop advancing on the other side of the Misty Mtns? loads of possibilities).

They TOOK the direct route. Remember, Gandalf planned to go straight through Moria in the first hand? All alternative routes had been suggested by others.

Yes and no. The direct route was under suspicion both over Caradhras (close to the gap and watched) and through Moria (Durin's Bane, and orcs). So while shorter and more direct geographically, the obstacles made it the less inviting, and so less direct route than going over the Misty Mtns right outside Rivendell and then down the Anduin to Lorien by river. Quicker too if one can arrange to buy boats from the men and Beornings on the other side.

O, yeah? Even knowing that your delay may cause the destruction of your country?
Or that haste would cause the destruction of the world?

I understand that the hobbits could be so heedless, but such warriors as Boromir and Aragorn definitely understood the graveness of situation, and also Galadriel and Celeborn.
Which is what caused them to delay: haste and ignorance always lead astray. Besides the Ringbearer was to be free to make his choices, not forced, even by necessity.

[Forkbeard]

Don't let your mind boggle, you can find the connections if you look for them in the books.

Often these connections that people find are figments of an overactive imagination. It remains to be seen whether this is one of those.

Firstly Haldir said the orcs came from the South:

This is precisely what he does not say. He says that they saw a troop going north along the river, he said nothing about them coming from the south. Just a brief glance at the map will I think show that regardless of point of origin, to reach the east gate of Moria on that side of the Misty Mtns one has to go north along the river for a time. So it says nothing about the origins of this troop, only that they were going along the river which there runs ne/sw towards Moria.

that means, either from Mordor, or Isengard, or even from Dol Guldur, if they crossed the River at the field of Celebrant. OK? Or you think they were from Minas Tirith? :D

Those are the most likely possibilities, though there are others. And it doesn't mean they were sent much less sent in response to the Fellowship.

Secondly, they were either Sauron's or Saruman's. Gandalf described the ones near the Chamber of Mazarbul as "black uruks of Mordor"

Nope, he says, "And some are large and evil; black uruks of Mordor." All uruks came from Mordor originally, and so can be called "of Mordor", it doesn't mean that these specific ones came from Mordor (and interestingly enough in the chapter the Two Towers where we meet them again other than one or two of them, they seem quite unwilling to aid their Mordor brethren). And even if they did, they only make part of the number of orcs that Gandalf sees.


Aragorn didn't gainsay it. He saw the Isengardians for the first time later, at Path Galen. The difference was discussed at this point; it was considerable. And Gandalf spent more than a month on the roof of Orthank: shouldn't he know how the Izengardians look? :rolleyes:

Who said that Aragorn gainsaid it? I didn't. As for Gandalf: a) he was on top of Orthanc, at the pinnacle and he describes the valley as being far below; he further describes the smokes and vapors of Isengard as "wrapping around" Orthanc so that he was alone on an island in the clouds. Hardly the vantage point to study the details of orc appearance in Isengard or to tell at a glance through a crack in the door the difference.

So my conclusion: they were from Mordor. Which as we've seen at the very best can only be said of "Some", but not all.

Now did the new troop change the balance of forces in Moria? And were they sent there in relation with the Fellowship?



The passage above tells us of the situation in Moria in summer 3018. "NOT very numerous". It doesn't sound like a "great troop of orcs", does it?
First, the passage comes from a section CT titles "Other Versions" that he describes as being in a lesser state of completion than that he printed. That makes me wary of using it as some kind of hard and fast proof that this is how Tolkien in the end viewed things.
Second, "not very numerous" depends on how you count and your perspective. That "not very numerous" number was enough to take care of Balin and company, and so the same number would have been able to take care of 9 walkers, esp. since 4 were hobbits. So "not very numerous" were numerous enough to track the 9 once they were aware of them, to deal with 30 dwarves or so, and to keep Moria from Sauron's enemies: and so indeed may be considered " a great troop" from another perspective. Since Tolkien didn't finish or polish this, we've no idea what his final opinions would have been.
Third, "servants of Sauron" is a general descriptor and hardly means that they had been specifically sent there by Sauron or that they had strung telephone wires to Mordor to reach out and touch him.

So between the summer and the winter 3018, the Moria garrison was noticeably reinforced. It might be either connected with Gollum, or with the news of the Ring Quest.

More specifically, it is early 3019, "many" days before the arrival of the Fellowship, not "many" moons or months. Likely that it was connected with finding Gollum. Sauron only knows that the Ring was carried by a hobbit to Rivendell. He doesn't know, or at least we are not told, that there are 9 walkers, one of them with the Ring, having a gay ol' time taking the Dimrill stair, avoiding the Gap of Rohan, not going further south, etc. there is no reason for Sauron to suspect Elrond or whoever has the ring if going to Gondor will go through Moria rather than through one of the passes into Lorien.

Considering the fact that the attacking orc in the Mazarbul fight went directly and unerringly for Frodo, I believe the latter.

That's one way to read the text, but it doesn't say that. He bears Boromir to the ground and is about to kill him when Aragorn swings, he dodges going sidelong into the rest of the Company and scattering them, and the nearest one to kill is Frodo whom he thrusts his spear into only to be attacked by Sam, whom he is about to kill once he draws his scimitar, but Aragorn has recovered and brought another blow onto his head, bursting both helm and head. I. E. the scene can be read as simply an orc captain trying to take out who he can and Frodo just happened to be in the way (besides, as later at Parth Galen if the orc captain were going for Frodo because he had been sent there by Sauron, why is he giving Frodo a death would [which it surely would have been without Frodo's mail] instead of capturing him alive. Both the orcs at Parth Galen--all of them--and the Nazgul at the Fords of Bruinen want to take the hobbits to Mordor, not to kill them (until they have the Ring anyway). The orc-captain's actions are contrary to this goal, and so suggest that he has no such orders regarding rings, hobbits, etc.

And then: Elladan and Elrohir were in Lorien, in late October-November 3018. Why didn't they bring back the news of the great troop of orcs coming to Moria? Because they didn't. Gandalf has no idea of the situation in Moria:

Neither Gandalf nor Aragorn has been in Moria for 30 years, so no. As for Elrond's sons not bringing back the news, again the text has Haldir say in late Jan. 3019 (Jan 15 in fact) that "many days" before they had spied this orc-troop, not a month, or many months. Elladan and Elrohir had returned to Imladris in mid-December and so hadn't been in Lorien since early December at the latest.

So, I believe, either Galadriel decided to keep the news to herself ;) - did she, Olmer?, or the orc host came AFTER Elladan and Elrohir left Moria.- in late November. Then the chance that its arrival is connected with the nazgul report about the Fellowship increases.

Perhaps, but ony by ignoring several other factors.


As Olmer has quite correctly pointed out, the lands of the Ettenmoors were almost empty by TA 3018.
See my response to Olmer.

Apart from that, recall that the Witch-King had previously laid siege to Rivendell (1409) and, although he had all the army of Angmar with him, still he failed to take it. You think by 3018 he had developed a severe nazgul amnesia? :rolleyes:

Where did you get this piece of information from? In 1409 Angmar all but overran the north Kingdom, and with the help of Cirdan and Elrond was repelled. IN neither Appendix A nor in B is there any suggestion that Marvin had laid siege to Rivendell. Besides, there are more things to do with a troop of soldiers then lay siege, like spy, keep a look out, harry, and track a group of nine walkers and attack them in the wild.

Could he hope to assail Rivendell with a troop of vagabonds collected in Ettenmoors?,
Who said anything about vagabonds? Not I.

here is my "modicum of silliness" :evil: :D
Yes, I agree completely, there is your modicum of silliness.

[CrazySquirrel]

Where did you get this piece of information from? In 1409 Angmar all but overran the north Kingdom, and with the help of Cirdan and Elrond was repelled. IN neither Appendix A nor in B is there any suggestion that Marvin had laid siege to Rivendell.

Incorrect. Here is the quote you are not aware of:
Arveleg son of Argeleb, with the help of Cardolan and Lindon, drove back his enemies from the Hills; and for many years Arthedain and Cardolan held in force a frontier along the Weather Hills, the Great Road, and the lower Hoarwell. It is said that at this time Rivendell was besieged.(LOTR Appendix A, the North-kingdom and the Dúnedain)

[Forkbeard]

[QUOTE=CrazySquirrel]Incorrect. Here is the quote you are not aware of:[/
[QUOTE]

No, I'm aware of the quote and note that it took place BEFORE 1409 and that it is reported as "it is said..." rather than being an actual, reported event. After all, if the hobbits are sitting in the house of Elrond and basing the information in the Red Book that becomes Appendix A on records there, one would think that we'd have more than a "it is said that..." and that such an event, the first time since SA 1701 and the expulsion of Sauron from Eriador had occurred just might have a mention in the Tale of Years? But it doesn't. So I put little store by a "it is said..." statement that has no confirmation anywhere else in the text.

[Rest of post edited by Azalea]

[Olmer]

Olmer, if you state they were from Isengard, could you provide a quote, please? Sorry I missed your question. Here is my thoughts about it.
Who was the strange orc who wounded Frodo with the spear? He is not Moria’s ork. Expertly dodging Boromir’s and Aragorn’s blows, he went straight not for Merry, Pippin or Sam, but for the Ringbearer? ”With a thrust of his huge hide shield he turned Boromir’s sword and bore him backwards…Diving under Aragorn’s blow with the speed of striking snake he charged into the Company and thrust with his spear straight at Frodo.”(FOTR,”The bridge of Khazad-Dum).. Seemed he had an information which other orcs did not have: an information about a certain halfling, carrying something important, and the order to destroy this certain halfling. .
This warrior’s skillfulness, bravery and readiness to meet the death in order to achieve a given directive, ask for respect , and , also, for an implication that he had a lot of practice in combat , contrary to disorganized and unskilled orcs of Moria. This Orc-warrior differs from his Moria’s orcs followers as a wolf from toy dogs , who cowardly “clustered in the doorway” and “fled howling" at the first sight of defeat .
Considering above mentioned, it looks like this is the one of Saruman’s ambassadors.
What did they do in Moria? Was they persuading to join Isengard’s army? Negotiating of military alliance? I think that this officer of Isengard’s army was sent to Moria with a specific order, and very possible that the whole attack on the Fellowship was provoked and orchestrated under the guidance of the few emissaries of Saruman the Wise.
Of course, according to Gandalf’s words there were also some “black Uruks from Mordor”, but since they did not differ too much in appearance with Uruk-hai from Isengard, it's very possible that Gandalf mistakenly took the Isengarders for Uruks of Mordor.
Sauron did not know which one out of four hobbits is a Ringbearer. Saruman, on the other hand, had “many ways of learning the news “, and through his spies without difficulty might find out a full description of the Ringbearer.
What I do wonder is why Elrond didn't show Frodo his Ring? Gandalf was not into “show and tell” either. :D ;)
They didn't appoint a ring-bearer. Frodo volunteered.
No. He did not.They were CERTAIN that Frodo will volunteer, this why for a such long time “all the Council sat with downcast eyes’’, afraid to look at Frodo, but waiting... Because they KNEW that Frodo has no other choice -he already binded to the Ring..”Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go...And I could not “make" you - except by force.” Gandalf and Elrond knew from the beginning that Frodo wouldn't be able to give it up ,nor to destroy the Ring, unless somebody would "make" him "by force, which would break... (his) mind".
"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it."
"Many long years" does not equal "from the beginning", "pondered what I might do" does not mean "have a plan for" nor mean it to be an object of her dreams anymore “From the beginning”, 10 000 years ago, she never dreamt about the possibility to acquire the power "to rule there a realm at her own will" (The Silmarillion), but about 6,500 years later her wish came true. She did not rush to go West, because she felt that: “Here I am mightier" (UT), so her ambitions were aimed to reach the power and influence greater then power of Valinor’s elves. When the Ring of Power lost his owner, as a wielder of the one of The Three, she, definitely realized what a great potential to outdo elves in Aman cold be in the attaing of The One. So, since 3441 S.A. she was contemplating the prospect to become the rightful owner of the golden trinket and 3017 years I would consider as “many long years” even by elven’s count. :)
But it is odd don't you think that Gandalf, even as a wizard much less in his natural state, should SERVE Galadriel rather than the other way round?
Because Gandalf was not allowed to reveal his power, because he, probably, was not as knowledgeable, as the very brilliant and wise elf with 10 000 years experience and because he occasionally had a bouts of forgetfulness. :D
On another hand, Galadriel, seems, had Istari under her command.
"I it was who first summoned the White Council, an if MY designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey.."(The Fellowhip of the Ring).
SHE summoned the most powerful Elves and Maiar to the council.
SHE contemplated the scheme of what to do with the Ring.
And SHE desided on who will execute her plan. :)
So I put little store by a "it is said..." statement that has no confirmation anywhere else in the text.
It's argumentable, since all records of the Red Book are based on hearsay. ;)

[Olmer]

3) Gandalf's statement about not counting him in just yet says nothing about his eagerness. In fact you will recall that just before that bit you quote, Gandalf explicitly says, "Someone said that intelligence was needed. I think that I shall go with you." That seems to me to explicitly state his INTENT.
Right. It says a LOT about his eagerness. :cool:
Even knowing with certainty that Frodo might fail in his unbearable for a little hobbit quest, he did not volunteer to accompany Frodo at the Council, Sam did. And later after that he was STILL THINKING should he go with company, or not, instead of simply saying :"I will go, because my expertise would be very much needed."
As about his intent, he, probably, thought that he could pull-off the same arrangement with the Fellowship as he managed to do with Thorin's group.

[Nurvingiel]

I don't know why Gandalf wasn't eager to go. Wasn't he Sauron's enemy in Middle-earth? What better way to foil Sauron than to help destroy the One Ring?

However, recall the scene on Caradrhas where he lights a fire for the freezing Fellowship ( :D ) with magic and says unhappily, "If that isn't a better way to say 'Gandalf was here' than I don't know what is." (Or something.)

I think Gandalf was reluctant to go because his presence, if discovered, would tip off Sauron and/or agents of Mordor that this activity, whatever it was, was worth keeping an Eye on. (;)) That was the last thing that the Fellowship would need!

I agree that the Fellowship stayed too long in Rivendell, but that does not seem peculiar to Rivendell; they also spent one month in Lorien.
(And let's not foget Frodo reclutance in leaving Hobbinton)I agree TWFM, I think it's mostly a matter of how easy it is to lose track of time with the immortal Elves.

However, Elrond should have known better. He had the big picture and knew of the urgency of the quest. Frodo in Hobbiton didn't really know if drastically and almost irrevercably leaving his home was the right course of action.